Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: DingoSoulEater on <07-09-15/0729:11>

Title: [SR5] Point Buy - Metatype Cost Adjustments.
Post by: DingoSoulEater on <07-09-15/0729:11>

I think the original Point Buy costs for Shadowrun’s Metavariants in Run Faster are, honestly, inconsistent & flawed. Races that are functionally inferior to others, are often more expensive; in one case you are better off being a 0-cost human than its alternative.
This is an attempt to rebalance these costs, using some simple, barbaric math & some more intuitive try & interpretation & estimation. Below in a spoiler is the basic math I used.

[spoiler=” Math Used”]

The Second-Draft costs of all metavariants & types is simply a manipulation of the karma required to emulate the race, using the Metagenic Qualities in Run Faster as a reference.   

Attributes: Attributes are valued at +15 Karma per point of improvement in line with the Metagenic [Attribute] Improvement quality; & at -2 Karma per negative point.

Qualities: Qualities & features of classes are paid for at the standard value of their metagenic quality, or their closest match (Dermal Armour +1 being matched with Dermal Deposits [3 Karma]; +1 Reach being matched with Elongated Limbs [4 Karma], etcetera)

Natural Weapons: Natural Weapons are valued between 4 & 6 depending on strength; this is to try & fall in line with the various Natural Weapon Mutagenic Qualities.

Speed: A reduction to the cost of the metavariant is given if the character has a naturally reduced speed (Trolls & Dwarves) of -10 karma.

Lifestyle: A reduction to the cost of the class is given as (Lifestyle Increase * 10). This means a Troll has -10 Karma to its cost; a Dwarf has -2 to its cost. I have assumed Dwarf & Troll lifestyle costs are meant to be increased for their metavariants as well (Gnome, Giant, etc)

Shapeshifters: As Shapeshifter attributes form only a partial function of the final race; the cost of their attributes as a total is reduced by -50% & by -20% for total qualities (as many but not all of these do apply in their metahuman form). The Shift mutagenic property is treated as a quality equal to 30 Karma; & the Intiative Boosts as being 10 Karma per d6.

From here, the amounts are added, & simply rounded to the nearest 5 for ease of use; & a final reduction of 10 karma as a discount to the final cost.[/spoiler]

Below is the final costs using this math & my personal interpretation/adjustment.

Race___________	_Cost_
Human	0
Elf	40
Dwarf	55
Ork	60
Troll	90
Dryad	35
Nocturna	25
Wakyambi	50
Xapiri Thëpë	15
Gnome	40
Hanuman	40
Korobokuru	40
Menehune	30
Nartaki	0
Hobgobin	20
Ogre	70
Oni	55
Satyr	50
Cyclopean	95
Fomorian	75
Giant	90
Minotaur	110

and below, is the more detailed explanation & details, including comparisons of the original costs to those given by math, & my own final answers as well; this shows my reasoning for certain costs as well. Please, if anything here seems wrong or ‘off’, mention it; I want to make this usable by everyone, & if my decision is imperfect, say so!
Evidently, Metasapients (Centaur, Naga, Pixie, Sasquatch) & Metasapient AI have not been done yet. If anyone has suggestions on these, they are greatly appreciated

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Human Metavariants
 

Race___________	_Orig, Cost_	_Math Cost_	_Dingo Cost_
Human	50	5	0
Nartaki	40	-5	0

Human
Attributes; +1 Edge
Human is our default race, & for the system, this can stay free.

Nartaki
Positive Qualities; Shiva Arms. Negative Qualities; Striking Skin Pigmentation
Nartaki despite having useful arms; is ultimately a poor race. No edge bonus, combined with the fact that it takes a repeated expenditure of karma for multiple Ambidexterity perks to use the arms effectively, makes this race more expensive & cumbersome for any sort of social stealth than is worth any karma investment. I stand by suggesting this to cost 0 Karma; 5 karma if it is to have some cost.

---

Elf Metavariants
 

Race___________	_Orig, Cost_	_Math Cost_	_Dingo Cost_
Elf	40	40	40
Dryad	90	45	35
Nocturna	60	25	25
Wakyambi	70	50	50
Xapiri Thëpë	80	15	20

Elf
Attributes; +1 Agility, +2 Charisma. Positive Qualities; Low-Light Vision
All-round benefits that help in combat, social, & general awareness; elf is solid if simple, & it's default price of 40 is fine.

Dryad
Attributes; +1 Agility, -1 Strength, +2 Charisma. Positive Qualities; Glamour, Low-Light Vision. Negative Qualities; Symbiosis
With the same stats as an elf; Dryad merely gains Glamour for bonuses in social scenarios, in exchange for Symbiosis & a free Distinctive Style that comes with Glamour. A mixed bag that is dangerous in most cases, I find this race to be worse than Elf even for Faces, due to the problems of Symbiosis penalties & the dangers of Distinctive Style. Combined, you can't even safely use the social bonus when Symbiosis is being nice to you; as everyone in the area you live in remembers you vividly because of Glamour! Math says 45. I say 35.

Nocturna
Attributes; -1 Body +2 Agility, +1 Charisma. Positive Qualities; Keen-Eared, Low-Light Vision. Negative Qualities; Allergy (Sunlight, Mild), Nocturnal, Unusual Hair
Suffering an array of penalties that make it fragile in a fight, unable to act at full capacity during many shadow runs, & obvious social freakishness. This race is a handicap more than benefit, even when exploiting the improved Agility. Math says 25; I agree.

Wakyambi
Attributes; +1 Agility, +1 Intuition, +1 Edge. Positive Qualities; Celerity, Elongated Limbs, Low-Light Vision
A very solid build, with many benefits that can help everyone in battle whether a mage wanting a better edge pool, or a face needing to ensure situational awareness is constant, or a street samurai wanting some extra reach. This is a very good race. Math puts this at 50. I concur. It's better than an elf, but not quite a dwarf or ork.

Xapiri Thëpë
Attributes; +1 Agility, -1 Logic, +1 Charisma. Positive Qualities; Lowlight Vision, Photometabolism. Negative Qualities; Allergy (Pollutants, Mild)
Mixed bag of benefits & a stealthy penalty in Photometabolism that often counters the Charisma bonus to Social dice pools in exchange for only -10% Lifestyle costs, & one of the most frequent & erratic things to be allergic to. This is a face that is often at social penalty, a fighter often at -2 dice pool, & a general problem of standing out. Math says 15. I say 20.

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Dwarf Metavariants
 

Race___________	_Orig, Cost_	_Math Cost_	_Dingo Cost_
Dwarf	50	60	55
Gnome	50	30	40
Hanuman	100	30	40
Korobokuru	70	35	40
Menehune	50	35	30

Dwarf
Attributes; +2 Body, -1 Reaction, +2 Strength, +1 Willpower. Positive Qualities; Thermographic Vision, Resistance to Pathogens & Toxins
Dwarf is a solid race, reliable & sturdy; it gains quite a bit, & doesn't suffer much in turn. The original game put this at 50; Math says 60. I think 55 slices this well.

Gnome
Attributes; -2 Body, +1 Agility, -2 Strength, +1 Willpower, +1 Logic. Positive Qualities; Arcane Arrestor [2], Thermographic Vision. Negative Qualities; Neoteny
A race with some painful negatives for survival, but some powerful boosts for anti-mage, or non-meatspace characters such as deckers, technomancers & astral-focused mages. Arcane Arrestor works well, though is a mixed bag for power. I would put this in the 35-40 range, as its penalties are quite dangerous to its survival & even to allied mages, but it specialises remarkably well.

Hanuman
Attributes; +1 Agility, +1 Strength, -1 Logic, +1 Intuition, -1 Charisma. Positive Qualities; Low-Light Vision, Monkey Paws, Prehensile Tail. Negative Qualities; Unusual Hair
Serving in the role of a very mobile, light-dwarf, this race has quite a bit of well-matched attributes that serve many styles; though not 100 karma of brilliance. Math says 30. I would put this in the 35-40 range, on par with Gnomes for their own specialisation opportunities.

Korobokuru
Attributes; +1 Body, +1 Strength, +1 Willpower. Positive Qualities; Celerity, Resistance to Pathogens/Toxins, Thermographic Vision. Negative Qualities; Unusual Hair
Positive heavy with movement boosts to help account for its slower base speed*, & only one penalty that only applies to social circles make this quite potent & reliable. Originally 100, Math says 35; but I'd put this at 40 to be in line with Elves.

Menehune
Attributes; +1 Body, +1 Agility, -1 Reaction, +1 Strength. Positive Qualities; Resistance to Pathogens/Toxins, Underwater Vision, Webbed Digits
Very situational, this race is worthwhile, but only in a truly underwater-frequent campaign. It's a moderately good race otherwise. Math says 35; I say 30 for standard campaigns, 35 for campaigns that play to the Menehune's strengths.

* All costs here assume the dwarven base speed penalty & increased lifestyle costs apply, granting each of these races a +20% Lifestyle Cost & sprint rate of only +1m/hit instead of +2m/hit that many other races enjoy.

Ork Metavariants
 

Race___________	_Orig, Cost_	_Math Cost_	_Dingo Cost_
Ork	50	65	60
Hobgobin	40	20	20
Ogre	40	85	70
Oni	50	65	55
Satyr	50	50	50

Ork
Attributes; +3 Body, +2 Strength, -1 Logic, -1 Charisma. Positive Qualities; Low-Light Vision
Potent & well packaged, the Ork suits many non-social roles at high intensity. Original is 50; Math is 65. I say 60.

Hobgoblin
Attributes; +1 Strength, -1 Logic, +1 Charisma. Positive Qualities; Fangs, Low-Light Vision. Negative Qualities; Poor Self Control (Vindictive)
Special Note; I could not find Extravagant Eyes in any 5e Book, so it has not been included as either a positive or negative.
Hobgoblins have some comfortable boosts - but it's negative can cause issues with social where its +1 Charisma would otherwise shine, & otherwise is a freakish looking half-rate half-orc. Math says 20. I concur.

Ogre
Attributes; +3 Body, -1 Reaction, +2 Strength, +1 Willpower, -1 Logic, -2 Charisma. Positive Qualities; Low-Light Vision, Ogre Stomach
Unlike some Ogres, Shadowruns' lacks many layers. It is a brawler & survivor, & quite potent. Original says 40; Math says 85. I think 70 is best.

Oni
Attributes; +2 Body, +1 Agility, +1 Strength, -1 Logic, +1 Charisma. Positive Qualities; Low-Light Vision. Negative Qualities; Striking Skin Pigmentation
Solid, though again it's appearance penalty devalues the Charisma. Original is 50, Math is 65. I say 55.

Satyr
Attributes; +1 Body, +1 Reaction, +1 Strength. Positive QUalities; Low-Light Vision, Satyr Legs
In exchange for being freakish looking; the Satyr gains a good set of low-intensity boosts, low-light vision, & solid movement. Original, Math, & I all agree; 50.

---

Troll Metavariants
 

Race___________	_Orig, Cost_	_Math Cost_	_Dingo Cost_
Troll	90	90	90
Cyclopean	100	95	95
Fomorian	100	75	75
Giant	90	90	90
Minotaur	100	110	110

Troll
Attributes; +4 Body, -1 Agility, +4 Strength, -1 Logic, -1 Intuition, -2 Charisma. Positive Qualities; Dermal Armour +1, Reach +1, Thermographic Vision
Very much a powerhouse, the original, math, & my cost are all 90.

Cyclopean
Attributes; +4 Body, -1 Agility, +5 Strength, -2 Logic, -1 Intuition, -2 Charisma. Positive Qualities; Reach +1. Negative Qualities; Cyclopean Eye
With a powerful starting strength, in exchange for losing armour, combat dice pools, logic, & many technical or precision skills suffering a slight hit; I agree it is stronger than a troll, but not by much. Math & I both say 95.

Fomorian
Attributes; +3 Body, -1 Agility, +4 Strength, -1 Logic, -2 Intuition, -2 Charisma. Positive Qualities; Arcane Arrestor [1], Reach +1, Thermographic Vision
Effectively a big ork with a slight of magic resistance; math says 75, & that works for me.

Giant
Attributes; +4 Body, -1 Agility, -1 Reaction, +4 Strength, -1 Logic, -1 Intuition, -1 Charisma. Positive Qualities; Dermal Alteration (Bark), Reach +1, Thermographic Vision
Suffering penalties in avoidance, resisting spells, & reactions; countered by a solid armour boost, I can see this being on par with a Troll, given the issues of cyberware not agreeing with Dermal Alteration. 90.

Minotaur
Attributes; +5 Body, -1 Agility, +3 Strength, -1 Logic, -2 Charisma. Positive Qualities; Goring Horns, Reach +1, Thermographic Vision
A very hardy tank with an impressive starting condition monitor of 11; Minotaur also comes with a free weapon that pairs very well with its stats. I concur with the maths increase from 100 to 110.

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Shapeshifters
 

Shifter________	_Orig, Cost_	_Math Cost_	_Dingo Cost_
Bovine	100	50	60
Canine	110	60	65
Equine	120	65	65
Falconine	110	70	70
Leonine	160	85	70
Lupine	120	55	65
Pantherine	150	90	75
Tigrine	150	105	70
Ursine	160	110	100
Vulpine	100	55	55

Welcome to the Guessing Game 2015 Edition. In short; I have revalued these based roughly on the value of their metavariant form, their qualities, & the resultant costs of upgrades. Below is a short blurb on each. I aimed mostly for the 60-80 range, given the added cost of a metaform on top. Some exceptions occured for shapes that had very practical or powerful animal forms.
Bovine; Free Goring Horns is nice; but otherwise nothing worth noting.
Canine; No Uneducated, perception options, & socially acceptable animal form.
Equine; Semi-socially acceptable animalform, good escape potential, otherwise lacking.
Falconine; Capable of flight & scouting, nice vision boost, extra initaitive.
Leonine; Usable combat animal form, nice perks, extra initiative.
Pantherine; Very solid combat form, perks, extra initiative.
Tigrine; Another combat animal form, perception boosts, initiative.
Ursine; Brilliant animal fighter, survivable, perks. Expensive to use.
Vulpine; Borderline useless animal form, very obvious metahuman changes, though gets many perception boosts as others do. Still.Nothing great.

Also of course, as appropriate; the Metavariant Form costs had to be redone. These are done with a simple math - (Original Cost / 4) - 5. This in most cases should prevent any particular tricks in getting a 'super cheap' troll. Granted, a Vulpine Shifter (Minotaur) ends up at 76 Karma desipte a Minotaur costing 110, some nuances couldn't be avoided; & a GM should show some discretion here.

Metahuman Form__	_Form Cost_	_______Removed Qualities_______
Human	0
Elf	5
Dwarf	9
Ork	10
Troll	18
Dryad	0	Glamour
Nocturna	1
Wakyambi	8
Xapiri Thëpë	0	Photometobilism
Gnome	0	Arcane Arrestor [2]
Hanuman	5
Korobokuru	5
Menehune	3
Nartaki	0
Hobgoblin	0	Poor Self Control (Vindictive)
Ogre	10	Ogre Stomach
Oni	9
Satyr	8
Cyclopean	19
Fomorian	5	Arcane Arrestor [1]
Giant	16	Dermal Alteration (Bark)
Minotaur	21	Goring Horns

Title: Re: [SR5] Point Buy - Metatype Cost Adjustments.
Post by: UnLimiTeD on <07-09-15/1258:15>

Neat calculation.
I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but the argumentations for the metavariants are somewhat sound.
Points of Contention:
Though I don't think base Elves should be any cheaper.
You don't already get 1 AGI and 2 CHA (the two most imporant attributes for fighers, and faces, respectively) , you also gain lowlight vision and increased movespeed, without any social rejection.
Also, I think you undervalue the defensive effect Arcane Arrester can have on Gnomes.
Yes, it also works the other way, but a heal spell will just heal a box less.
You could make this a good magehunter, possibly a combat adept. MyAds or TMs are also sweet.
If qualities are bought in game, the health boxes are admittedly worth 20 Karma (2x Tough as Nails).
Unless you mean this only for Karma Gen and not life modules, in which case the cost of attaining that extra attribute point is prohibitive, and I agree completely.

Title: Re: [SR5] Point Buy - Metatype Cost Adjustments.
Post by: DingoSoulEater on <07-09-15/1400:07>

The base was purely for Karmagen, yes. Mainly because I feel that Priority System especially, but Life Modules to a lesser extent, adopts a linear-approach to progression; +1 STR in either has the same value whether you're improving your STR from 1 to 2, or from 5 to 6, and so forth; which I feel doesn't suit well to the fact the rest of the game's progression uses exponential costs.

Good points on Arrestor, I hadn't considered using it as a sort of Mage-Hunter. Though I would argue the point isn't entirely in healing; its reduced health pools reduces its survival, and will dampen the effects of things such as Armour, Heal, Stabilise, Invisibility, and all manner of 'ally' spells that you may need to get through a situation with a mage's help. Though it does suit environments where the team doesn't have a mage, or the gnome is an adept using non-rolled powers.

In regards to Elf; I agree that ELf suits itself very well to almost everything; Shaman Mages, Fighters, Insurgents, Faces.. But the benefits for their actual karma value are quite low; Low Light vision is a very powerful but also readily available tool via basic glasses (Or cybereyes), leaving a +1 and +2 stat. Good, definitely. Though your point stands about it not standing out at all, it's socially acceptable, perhaps 35 would be a better mark? It can get away with having a stable build even with cyberware, tech, gear and magic all disabled, so it does have quite a solid base even when it should he barmless. And I did completely forget about the better move-rate.

Title: Re: [SR5] Point Buy - Metatype Cost Adjustments.
Post by: Glyph on <07-11-15/0601:29>

What I find vexing is that the costs for metavariants/advanced options are so different in Priority/Sum-to-Ten, and Point Buy/Life Modules.  Create a dryad using Priority, and it's the same cost as a regular elf.  Do it in Point Buy, and it's more than double the cost!

People have brought up the "rarity tax" argument before, but I don't quite agree with it - the costs are too random.  Some of the options are unrealistically expensive, but others are not.

Title: Re: [SR5] Point Buy - Metatype Cost Adjustments.
Post by: UnLimiTeD on <07-11-15/0713:19>

I've no problem with rarity tax, but it shouldn't exceed 10% of actual value, so it's less attractive for powergamers but still an absolutely viable choice.
So, I know what you mean.
Dryads, Fomoraig, most Dwarf Variants....

Title: Re: [SR5] Point Buy - Metatype Cost Adjustments.
Post by: DingoSoulEater on <07-11-15/0928:06>

Whether it's the rarity tax,or something else we're all not privvy to; I agree, the prices are -out there- inalmost every case. It's sort of ridiculous, to be frank. This is why I want to workon them.

If I can get the Point Buy versionworked out - allowing a more 'effective' comparison of the value of each race, I may be able to adapt it to Life Module (slight adjustments needed); and from there, maybe even get Priority System reviewed.

So, if anyone has corrections, or thoughts I've missed, I'm happy to hear them. Going to do a second pass on this tonight, and change some of the numbers away from the 'math' to what I feel seems appropriate adjustments.

Title: Re: [SR5] Point Buy - Metatype Cost Adjustments.
Post by: PJ on <07-11-15/1239:01>

Something I played around with in my head (not on paper), is using the Changeling Quality costs to calculate.  I counted each bonus/penalty Attribute as Metagenic Improvement/ Impaired Attribute, with a Racial Package bonus.  So...

Elf: +2 Cha (30), +1 Agi (15), Low Light Vision (4), Racial Package (-10)= 39 round to 40
Ork:  +3 Bod (45), +2 Str (30), -1 Cha (-4), -1 Log (-4), Low Light Vision (4), Racial Package (-10)= 61, round to 60 (-10 for the reduced lifespan?)
Dwarf:  +2 Bod (30), +2 Str (30), +1 Wil (15), -1 Rea (-4), Thermographic Vision (3), Racial Package (-10)= 64, round to 60 (+2 Resistance and Lifestyle cost with reduced movement net another -10?)
Troll:  +4 Bod (60), +4 Str (60), -1 Agi (-4), -2 Cha (-8), -1 Int (-4), -1 Log (-4), Thermographic Vision (3), Reach (4), Armor (3), Racial Package (-10)= 100 (Lifestyle cost further -10?)
Human: +1 Edg (15), Racial Package (-10)= 5 (reduced to 0 cuz human is baseline?)

Now take Wakyambi, normal cost 70.
+1 Agi (15), +1 Int (15), +1 Edg (15), -1 Log (-4), Celerity (6), Elongated Limbs (4), Low Light Vision (4), Racial Package (-10)= 45

Or my favorite, Fomori, normal cost 100.
+3 Bod (45), +4 Str (60), -1 Agi (-4), -1 Wil (-4), -2 Log (-8), -2 Int (-8), -1 Cha (-4), Reach (4), Arcane Arrester 1 (10), Thermographic Vision (3), Racial Package (-10)= 84 round to 80 (maybe 70 because of Lifestyle cost?)

Admittedly, its not perfect.  But I figure using the changeling qualities makes all things equal in love and war.

Title: Re: [SR5] Point Buy - Metatype Cost Adjustments.
Post by: DingoSoulEater on <07-11-15/1351:23>

I actually had been using the Mutagenic Qualities as the basis for the quality costs; but I noticed something that seems to be a far better idea than what i was doing. You appear to be using +15 Karma per +Stat and -4 Karma per -stat, and that seems to definitely give a far... nicer set of stats. Getting rid of discounts and -10'ing as a discount makes things like human and the like round out very nicely as well.

I'll play a bit and maybe incorporate that into my system. Because it's a damned good idea. I'd been originally using the simple +Karma costs (1 > 2 = 10 Karma, 2 > 3 = 15 Karma, etc)  which made races with many, but small increases come out low in their costs.

Title: Re: [SR5] Point Buy - Metatype Cost Adjustments.
Post by: DingoSoulEater on <07-16-15/1707:37>

After some suggestions above, and some re-working of the numbers on my part - the first post has been given a major update.

Any feedback is more than welcome. Also that 20,000 Character Limit made that very, very difficult.

Title: Re: [SR5] Point Buy - Metatype Cost Adjustments.
Post by: FrowningMirror on <07-16-15/1835:36>

Unfortunately I mainly disagree with your calculations, mainly because you seem to go inbetween the math values and original values to get your conclusions. Even at -2 karma you'll probably not see that karma wasted at all since its the dump stat anyways.
Anything that sets you at odd level body is a little better than something setting you at even level body on non tanks because you won't force yourself to use an extra point in something thats largely a dump stat after 3

Also Orks don't have thermographic vision.