Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Hobbes on <08-30-15/1238:06>

Title: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Hobbes on <08-30-15/1238:06>
Was fiddling with a spreadsheets, since most of the work was done thought I'd share here:
OptionNuyenEssenceInitiativeReactionIntuitionDefense
#1118,2503.325+1d6+4+1
#2145,0000.7+1d6+1+1
#3157,2501.725+1d6+1+3+1
+1
#4228,2504.325+2d6+5+1
#5240,0001.2+2d6+2+1
Option #1 Wired 1; Used Reaction Enhancers 3; Cerebellum Booster 1
Option#2 Synaptic Booster 1; Cerebellum Booster 1
Option #3 Synaptic Accelerator; Used Reaction Enhancers 3; Cerebellum Booster 1
Option #4 Wired 2; Used Reaction Enhancers 3; Cerebellum Booster 1
Option #5 Synaptic Booster 2; Cerebellum Booster 1


The Wired Reflexes options have some wiggle room for different Grade options, and get a larger impact from Biocompatible (cyberware). 
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: IntrepidVector on <08-30-15/1306:30>
Beautified your data a little  :P
OptionNuyenEssenceInitiativeReactionIntuitionDefense
#1118,2503.325+1d6+4+1
#2145,0000.7+1d6+1+1
#3157,2501.725+1d6+1+3+1
+1
#4228,2504.325+2d6+5+1
#5240,0001.2+2d6+2+1
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Hobbes on <08-30-15/1312:26>
Beautified your data a little  :P


Yes you did.  *yoink* 

Updated OP, thanks!
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <08-30-15/1319:49>
So option two is best for cost in both essence and nueyen. Good to know.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Hobbes on <08-30-15/1402:28>
#2, Lowest Essence, 2nd Lowest Cost, Lowest performance.  You pay for the Essence savings, but its a good choice for Prototype Transhuman or for those on a tight Essence budget.  Magically active or a lot of high essence/low nuyen augments (I'm looking at you Muscle Replacement).   
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: I_AM_ZHOUL!!! on <08-30-15/1428:37>
So option two is best for cost in both essence and nueyen. Good to know.

Also can't use Drugs or Magic to raise to a higher Initiative that Options #1,  #3, & #4 allow you to do. Which brings up the point between SRM & non-SRM games... since SRM qualifies everything as Augmentations not just 'ware.

¥50k for a +1 to Intuition is WAY overpriced by the way! I haven't been able to justify it in an theory crafted builds yet.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Whiskeyjack on <08-30-15/1443:49>
¥50k for a +1 to Intuition is WAY overpriced by the way! I haven't been able to justify it in an theory crafted builds yet.
I'd say it's better post-chargen. At chargen, there are higher priorities.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: I_AM_ZHOUL!!! on <08-30-15/1527:41>
¥50k for a +1 to Intuition is WAY overpriced by the way! I haven't been able to justify it in an theory crafted builds yet.
I'd say it's better post-chargen. At chargen, there are higher priorities.

That's what I meant to express but didn't say explicitly. It's a very nice bonus when you have pulled off some big score during play but at Chargen it's a waste of Resources compared to other options.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Hobbes on <08-30-15/1610:05>
I'll take out the Cerebellum booster to give a clearer picture then. 


OptionNuyenEssenceInitiativeReactionDefense
#168,250  3.125+1d6+4
#295,000  0.5+1d6+1
#3107,250  1.525+1d6+1+3
+1
#4178,250  4.125+2d6+5
#5190,000  1.0+2d6+2


Of course now that I've pulled out the Cerebellum Booster, the Synaptic Booster options get a little plain.   : )
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <08-30-15/1634:28>
For transhumanist prototype 2 or 5 is not bad. I though that was the negative on Synaptic booster. I was thinking more for a face or secondary combat role archetype.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Whiskeyjack on <08-30-15/1722:34>
I feel like there are much better options for TP than Synaptic Booster.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <08-30-15/1840:56>
Yeah, the bioware that adds +1 to all physical stats would be great for TP as would the muscle augments.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Whiskeyjack on <08-30-15/1843:43>
I don't think the suprathyroid is remotely affordable either.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Hobbes on <08-30-15/2018:17>
For transhumanist prototype 2 or 5 is not bad. I though that was the negative on Synaptic booster. I was thinking more for a face or secondary combat role archetype.

If you've got no other Initiative boosts, sure.  Technomancer maybe?  Tough to see a Technomancer with resources C or better.  Prime runner Technomancer? 

Burn outs with an aversion to sustained spells maybe?  Anyway, Level 1 Synaptic Booster loses out to Synaptic Acceleration in Nuyen and Essence cost, so unless you're looking at an upgrade down the road Synaptic Acceleration is usually a better choice than level 1 Synaptic Boost.  Level 2 Synaptic Boost is okay for Essence constrained Samurai builds if you can't spare the extra .5 essence for #3. 
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <08-30-15/2130:09>
I forgot how expensive superthyroid was (just looked it up). I assume synaptic acceleration is out of chrome flesh? Not sure what all it does. How much essence does tailored pheromones use and cost in ¥? Thinking of decent upgrades for a non-magic face who doesn't want a butt-ton of 'ware, but has some decent toys.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Hobbes on <08-30-15/2213:12>
Yes and Tailored pheromones (Rating 1–3); Rating x 0.2 Essence ; Rating x 31,000¥
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: I_AM_ZHOUL!!! on <08-31-15/0227:43>
For transhumanist prototype 2 or 5 is not bad. I though that was the negative on Synaptic booster. I was thinking more for a face or secondary combat role archetype.

If you've got no other Initiative boosts, sure.  Technomancer maybe?  Tough to see a Technomancer with resources C or better.  Prime runner Technomancer? 

Burn outs with an aversion to sustained spells maybe?  Anyway, Level 1 Synaptic Booster loses out to Synaptic Acceleration in Nuyen and Essence cost, so unless you're looking at an upgrade down the road Synaptic Acceleration is usually a better choice than level 1 Synaptic Boost.  Level 2 Synaptic Boost is okay for Essence constrained Samurai builds if you can't spare the extra .5 essence for #3.

Synaptic Acceleration is incapable with Prototype Transhuman as of right now.... Geneware used to count as Bioware but it doesn't in Chromed Flesh. I've asked about this point specifically in the Errata thread as well as Graded but have yet to receive an answer.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: FasterN8 on <09-03-15/1550:13>
I'd go with option 3 at chargen and then later on down the road upgrade the Reaction enhancers to Betaware for about 50k (after 30% rebate on the trade-in) to free up almost .5 essence!

Also, if you're playing missions where you can trade for karma at 2000/1, Cerebellum boosters aren't really worth it until you've already boosted your Intuition to a 5 or 6.  Since the 50k price tag is also the karma cost of raising intuition to 5 (essence free!).
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Marcus on <09-03-15/2340:19>
Does Synaptic Acc stack with Reaction enhancers?
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: I_AM_ZHOUL!!! on <09-04-15/0228:08>
Does Synaptic Acc stack with Reaction enhancers?

No but yes... Synaptic Acceleration changes Initiative & gives a Defense Die, so it's the equivalent of getting a +1 Reaction that is only affected to Pilot skill Tests. So stacking without stacking.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Hobbes on <09-04-15/1019:06>
I'd go with option 3 at chargen and then later on down the road upgrade the Reaction enhancers to Betaware for about 50k (after 30% rebate on the trade-in) to free up almost .5 essence!

Also, if you're playing missions where you can trade for karma at 2000/1, Cerebellum boosters aren't really worth it until you've already boosted your Intuition to a 5 or 6.  Since the 50k price tag is also the karma cost of raising intuition to 5 (essence free!).

Resources A can fit in Cerebellum Boosters at Chargen without too much trouble.  Especially if you go with #3.  Toss in ReAkt and you're sitting at around 17 dice on defense tests.  Basically immune to small arms fire from anything less than Threat Rating 3.  Quite flashy.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Whiskeyjack on <09-04-15/1045:11>
The opportunity cost of +1 INT over other ware that could help more at chargen is pretty high.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Hobbes on <09-04-15/1913:46>
Option #3 w/ Cerebellum booster, Used Muscle Replacement 3; and Reakt with Biocompatable (Cyberware) runs around 300k and leaves you with around 1/2 point of Essence still for a few fiddly bits.  Covers the basics anyway, and gets you to 15+2d6 for init and 17 dice base for defensive tests (assuming base Reaction 5, Intuition 5).   

*shrug*  depending on what you're after it's quite possible to grab with Resources A.  If you've got something more complicated in mind, then yep, Cerebellum Booster is the first to go. 

The Street Samurai build from http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12881.30 is an example. 




Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: gradivus on <01-06-16/0016:10>
You left out move-by-wire in your table
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Hobbes on <01-06-16/1157:43>
Move-by-Wire characters pretty much need to be built from the ground up around the MBW.  Restricted gear, skilljacks and skill softs and whatnot.

Or to put it another way, you're not likely to be doing a side by side comparison of Synaptic Acceleration and Move-by-Wire for the same character.  It's quite possible to be comparing a Move-By-Wire character and a more standard Street Sami build, but you're not just going to plug and play with MBW on a build. 
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: gradivus on <01-06-16/2247:11>
That's an interesting way of looking at it.

But the thread is labeled Initiative Augmentation options and well, MBW is an option.

Yes, a more specialized option, but an option none-the-less.

And of course MBW[1]  does not require Restricted gear.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: falar on <01-07-16/1151:19>
And of course MBW[1]  does not require Restricted gear.
It's also not really worth it. You gotta go spend half your essence to get +1 Reaction / +3 Initiative and Rating 2 Skillwires. That's just a crock of crap.

You gotta go [2] to be worth the investment, and if you go [2], you should go [3].

Hobbes is right. MBW is a full character concept.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Whiskeyjack on <01-07-16/1532:10>
There's a character in a game I'm in who went the MBW 2 route. We talked about it a lot beforehand and on multiple occasions I just recommended he ditch it for the standard WR 2 + REA Enhancers 3, because I feel like skillwires are of extremely low value.

He went with it and likes it though yeah he basically had to totally build around it versus it being just something you add to the cart like wires reflexes. I recognize that MBW provides more consistency with initiative, but I just love dice spikes, and I'll take all the extra REA any day over skillwires. We haven't been in a fight since he joined the game so it'll be interesting to see how his Sam stacks up against the "traditional" wired reflexes Sam when it comes to initiative and the like.

So yeah I agree with you Hobbes.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: gradivus on <01-08-16/2151:15>
There's a character in a game I'm in who went the MBW 2 route. We talked about it a lot beforehand and on multiple occasions I just recommended he ditch it for the standard WR 2 + REA Enhancers 3, because I feel like skillwires are of extremely low value.

He went with it and likes it though yeah he basically had to totally build around it versus it being just something you add to the cart like wires reflexes. I recognize that MBW provides more consistency with initiative, but I just love dice spikes, and I'll take all the extra REA any day over skillwires. We haven't been in a fight since he joined the game so it'll be interesting to see how his Sam stacks up against the "traditional" wired reflexes Sam when it comes to initiative and the like.

So yeah I agree with you Hobbes.

MBW 2 will on avg perform on avg better than WR[2] +8+1d6 (11.5) vs +4+2d6(11)
Add Reaction Enh[3] and wired 2 is better at the cost of being wireless though you could get a router to solve that problem.

While I agree that stad alone skillwires are to expensive for what they do in MBW[2] you have an equal in initiative to WR[2] at a cheaper cost with the skillwires thrown in as a bonus.  Getting the Skill Jack[4] while making the combo as expensive as WR[2] opens up for a wide range of things.

Personally it would only go on characters that have at least soft capped bot LOG & INT.
Add a trust fund so they don't need to worry about rent and get the basic subscription: now you have every knowledge/language at R1 albeit one at a time. Need the plans to modify your car-no need to buy them, just download it.Yes it will take a while to build up a library of level 4 active softs but how many do you really need? Each one you buy is like a 20 Karma skill(40000nuyen worth) with the caveat that you don't get to use edge. A decker w/LOG 8 and a R4 First Aid Active along w/a medkit 3 averages more boxes cured that a medkit 6 by itself. Yes, he's capped at 4 but the Medkit is capped at 6 hits period which means 4 hits healed maximum (just like the decker) but with fewer dice than the decker. (this assumes of course that the Decker has 6+limit in Mental and really how many deckers have you seen with a mental limit of 5 or lower?)
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Hobbes on <01-08-16/2232:22>
MBW 2 will on avg perform on avg better than WR[2] +8+1d6 (11.5) vs +4+2d6(11)
Add Reaction Enh[3] and wired 2 is better at the cost of being wireless though you could get a router to solve that problem.

While I agree that stad alone skillwires are to expensive for what they do in MBW[2] you have an equal in initiative to WR[2] at a cheaper cost with the skillwires thrown in as a bonus.  Getting the Skill Jack[4] while making the combo as expensive as WR[2] opens up for a wide range of things.

Personally it would only go on characters that have at least soft capped bot LOG & INT.
Add a trust fund so they don't need to worry about rent and get the basic subscription: now you have every knowledge/language at R1 albeit one at a time. Need the plans to modify your car-no need to buy them, just download it.Yes it will take a while to build up a library of level 4 active softs but how many do you really need? Each one you buy is like a 20 Karma skill(40000nuyen worth) with the caveat that you don't get to use edge. A decker w/LOG 8 and a R4 First Aid Active along w/a medkit 3 averages more boxes cured that a medkit 6 by itself. Yes, he's capped at 4 but the Medkit is capped at 6 hits period which means 4 hits healed maximum (just like the decker) but with fewer dice than the decker. (this assumes of course that the Decker has 6+limit in Mental and really how many deckers have you seen with a mental limit of 5 or lower?)

I guess if you're going to spend the nuyen and karma on restrictive gear and subscriptions why wouldn't you go with MBW 3?  Not saying MBW are bad, but you're not getting Restricted gear and SkillJacks and subscriptions with the other options.  It's not apples to apples.  MBW are more expensive overall, but get you more.   
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: gradivus on <01-09-16/0009:24>


I guess if you're going to spend the nuyen and karma on restrictive gear and subscriptions why wouldn't you go with MBW 3?  Not saying MBW are bad, but you're not getting Restricted gear and SkillJacks and subscriptions with the other options.  It's not apples to apples.  MBW are more expensive overall, but get you more.

Let's say you start with a character REA 5 INT 5
MBW[2] Initiative 10(18)+1d6(2d6) Avg 25
MBW[3] Initiative 10(22)+1d6(2d6) Avg 29 {5 of 18 31+]

Since I'm not buying it less than Alpha, 96000 seems to much to me to have a slightly less than 1/3 chance to go4 times instead of 3.

edit-and an activesoft[4] is 20k so that 96k is short of 5 skills for the MBW[2] character. And, I really would only use this option with a LOG 8+ Character (Rigger or Decker) and since they have other needs the MBW[4]+Skilljack[4] is already eating a third of 450k they have. To me, more of a problem to the rigger than the decker but this is not the thread to discuss that.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: falar on <01-09-16/1639:37>
Not to mention that you can only get Standard or Used MBW3 at Character Generation.

Restricted Gear, after all, doesn't get rid of the Availability cap. It just doubles it for one item. MBW3 is 24, so you can't get it Alphaware at CharGen, because that makes it 26 Availability.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: gradivus on <01-09-16/2050:25>
Would be nice if restricted also circumvented 'ware grade restriction.
Has nothing to do with this conversation.
Just musing.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: kyoto kid on <01-09-16/2348:41>
...the one other nice part about bio or geneware Initiative enhancement (besides the lower essence cost) is it doesn't set off MAD scanners.

...and just how does Synaptic Acceleration sidestep the rule about reaction enhancers?  According RAW in the core book, they only stack with Wired Reflexes and then only if wireless is turned on.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Hobbes on <01-10-16/0025:33>
Synaptic Acceleration doesn't add to Reaction, it adds to initiative and Defense tests.  Reaction Enhancers add to Reaction.  So, they stack.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: gradivus on <01-10-16/0034:34>
Synaptic Acceleration doesn't add to Reaction, it adds to initiative and Defense tests.  Reaction Enhancers add to Reaction.  So, they stack.

It's the only reason that I'd think of buying synaptic acceleration.
If it stack with reaction enhancers I'd just pay the extra and do boosters or pay less and get wired.
Though for a non-combat heavy character that just wants to guarantee 2 passes it's ok.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <01-10-16/0043:21>
Synaptic Boosters are a better deal as you actually get +1 reaction instead of just +1 initiative and +1 defense tests. Both grant +1 initiative dice, and they only differ in cost by 17k. Neither show up on cyberware scanners, either, but synaptic boosters can be further enhanced while synaptic accelerators cannot. It's a terrible piece of gear in my opinion.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Novocrane on <01-10-16/0052:55>
On the other hand, Synaptic Booster combines with absolutely nothing. No magic, cyber, bio, gene, drug. Zip.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <01-10-16/0114:09>
Wouldn't intuition boosters, I forget their names, work with both wired reflexes and synaptic boosters?

Either way, at least with synaptic boosters you can eventually get to +3 Reaction and +3d6 initiative. It's expensive, but doesn't show up on scanners and costs very little essence.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: gradivus on <01-10-16/0129:30>
On the other hand, synaptic booster [3] is only 1.5 ess standard.
Wired [3] is 5 ess standard
and yup you can increase your initiative/reaction w/reaction enhancers[3] for .9 more standard.

285k +3Reaction, +3d6Initiative 1.5 Ess
vs
256k 6 Reaction +3d6 Initiative 5.9 Ess

In isolation the second is better.
But the first allows a lot more implants

At chargen you have to use restricted gear for both options but either used or rating 2 for the enhancers

Option 2 can go biocompatability and alpha for the WR and Used for the RE
so 289650 at 4.54ess

Now they're about the same cost
For me the extra 3 Reaction isn't worth the extra 3.04ess

And for those tables that allow 'used' cultured <reasoning it was grown with inferior techniques/though I'm not sure that it should be allowed> getting +3 Reaction and =3d6 initiative dice for 1.88 (or less if using biocompatability) and 213750 is quite hard to pass up.
Edit: maybe I should refresh my page and see the in between comment first, would have saved  part of this comment
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: gradivus on <01-10-16/0134:21>
Wouldn't intuition boosters, I forget their names, work with both wired reflexes and synaptic boosters?

Either way, at least with synaptic boosters you can eventually get to +3 Reaction and +3d6 initiative. It's expensive, but doesn't show up on scanners and costs very little essence.

Cerebellum Booster, as far as I know, stack with every initiative boosting ware.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: kyoto kid on <01-10-16/0218:03>
So option two is best for cost in both essence and nueyen. Good to know.

Also can't use Drugs or Magic to raise to a higher Initiative that Options #1,  #3, & #4 allow you to do. Which brings up the point between SRM & non-SRM games... since SRM qualifies everything as Augmentations not just 'ware.

¥50k for a +1 to Intuition is WAY overpriced by the way! I haven't been able to justify it in an theory crafted builds yet.
...would that also include adept powers?
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: gradivus on <01-10-16/0244:25>
Best an adept is doing is Improved Reflexes [3]+Improved Attribute(REF)[1]
for a total of 4+3d6
I'm not including Cerebellum Booster, nor your REA or INT as this is a variable. And of course your starting +1d6 Initiative is added to the total.

You could go the other route and get Improved Attribute(REF)[4] which will allow you in theory to get (w/ExcAttribute-Magic) 7 levels of ADRENALINE BOOST for a 18 Initiative plus your natural REA and augmented INT. Drain 7 says this is not the way to go...but since you can continuously raise MR you can keep raising ADRENALINE BOOST.

T'm not discussing whether drugs can bypass the +4 augmentation limit.

A mage casting Increase Reflexes and Increase Attribut(Rea) could get a higher initiative than an adept w/IR[3]+IS)REA_[1] bit it's not a given since you can roll poorly on the spellcasting test.

Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: kyoto kid on <01-10-16/0322:49>
...do you mean Improved Attribute :Reaction 4?
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: gradivus on <01-10-16/0533:59>
...do you mean Improved Attribute :Reaction 4?

Yeah-me and my horrid typing. REF is actually REA
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Rooks on <01-10-16/0816:04>
meh if its one of those games I just take the +2d6 init booster then a dose of jazz
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Hobbes on <01-10-16/1045:39>

And for those tables that allow 'used' cultured <reasoning it was grown with inferior techniques/though I'm not sure that it should be allowed> getting +3 Reaction and =3d6 initiative dice for 1.88 (or less if using biocompatability) and 213750 is quite hard to pass up.


Yeah, used cultured ware and Synaptic Boosters becomes quite attractive, even the level 2 stuff.  +2 Reaction, +2d6 for 142,500 and 1.25 Essence.  12 +3d6 initiative is a little low for a primary combatant, but for a secondary combat character it's a decent deal.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Whiskeyjack on <01-10-16/1818:44>
Since I'm not buying it less than Alpha, 96000 seems to much to me to have a slightly less than 1/3 chance to go4 times instead of 3.

edit-and an activesoft[4] is 20k so that 96k is short of 5 skills for the MBW[2] character. And, I really would only use this option with a LOG 8+ Character (Rigger or Decker) and since they have other needs the MBW[4]+Skilljack[4] is already eating a third of 450k they have. To me, more of a problem to the rigger than the decker but this is not the thread to discuss that.
Same. The extra is nice, but it's hitting diminishing returns with regard to number of passes.

And Improved Attribute is way too expensive for what it does.

meh if its one of those games I just take the +2d6 init booster then a dose of jazz
Drugs no longer implicitly stack with everything, per Chrome Flesh.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Hobbes on <01-10-16/2150:20>
Drugs no longer implicitly stack with everything, per Chrome Flesh.

Mine own table went with "Nothing stacks unless it specifically says it stacks" and carried on.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: gradivus on <01-11-16/0022:26>
I stay away from drugs like the plague because I can so readily critical glitch a 15 DP... or at least it seems that way to me,

Therefore I don't usually worry about what stacks with drugs,

But since I just started my own PBP thread I guess I need to read up on it.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: kyoto kid on <01-11-16/0056:00>
...well, in Missions, getting addicted to  Cram is pretty much not an issue.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: gradivus on <01-11-16/0233:49>
...well, in Missions, getting addicted to  Cram is pretty much not an issue.
It shouldn't be an issue outside Missions either but I seem to have the 12DP w/10 1s or 10 5 and 6s... I can't roll like normal people.

And since glitches can't be rerolled, I avoid drugs like the plague.

In Warhammer Fantasy Battle I(can't remember which edition) I bought 6 Undead Catapults..
There's a 1 in 18 Chance that the thing destroys itself when firing. Turn 1 I destroyed 3 w/my rolls. Enemy Flyer then charged and destroyed a 4th. Turn 2 I destroyed another one . Enemy flyer charged the last one and I surrendered. Rolling 4 Destructions out of 8 rolls when it's a 1 in 18 chance is my kind of luck.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: gradivus on <01-11-16/0237:22>
Oh, and thinking about- not that I'd ever do it-

Fastest Adept Power fueled Initiative would be buying ImpAttribute(REA)[4], however many levels of attribute boost you are crazy enough to get and then using edge to roll 5d6 Initiative dice.


edit-fastest is not the appropriate word since someone could seize the initiative...so, highest possible initiative score

Which means MBW[3] could surpass WR3+RE3 if they used edge.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: ZombieAcePilot on <01-11-16/0239:30>
...well, in Missions, getting addicted to  Cram is pretty much not an issue.
It shouldn't be an issue outside Missions either but I seem to have the 12DP w/10 1s or 10 5 and 6s... I can't roll like normal people.

And since glitches can't be rerolled, I avoid drugs like the plague.

In Warhammer Fantasy Battle I(can't remember which edition) I bought 6 Undead Catapults..
There's a 1 in 18 Chance that the thing destroys itself when firing. Turn 1 I destroyed 3 w/my rolls. Enemy Flyer then charged and destroyed a 4th. Turn 2 I destroyed another one . Enemy flyer charged the last one and I surrendered. Rolling 4 Destructions out of 8 rolls when it's a 1 in 18 chance is my kind of luck.

Never use explosive ammo then. You'll have a bunch of busted guns and blown off fingers.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: gradivus on <01-11-16/0241:58>
I don't use explosive ammo.

not kidding.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Hobbes on <01-11-16/1427:07>
Oh, and thinking about- not that I'd ever do it-

Fastest Adept Power fueled Initiative would be buying ImpAttribute(REA)[4], however many levels of attribute boost you are crazy enough to get and then using edge to roll 5d6 Initiative dice.


edit-fastest is not the appropriate word since someone could seize the initiative...so, highest possible initiative score

Which means MBW[3] could surpass WR3+RE3 if they used edge.

Attribute boost is still limited by the augment cap of 4 and doesn't add to initiative anyway.  You likely meant Adrenaline boost?  And, yeah you can use and abuse Adrenaline boost to guarantee 4 actions, and occasionally 5.  You're going to have issues with drain though to say the least.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: gradivus on <01-11-16/1630:28>
Oh, and thinking about- not that I'd ever do it-

Fastest Adept Power fueled Initiative would be buying ImpAttribute(REA)[4], however many levels of attribute boost you are crazy enough to get and then using edge to roll 5d6 Initiative dice.


edit-fastest is not the appropriate word since someone could seize the initiative...so, highest possible initiative score

Which means MBW[3] could surpass WR3+RE3 if they used edge.

Attribute boost is still limited by the augment cap of 4 and doesn't add to initiative anyway.  You likely meant Adrenaline boost?  And, yeah you can use and abuse Adrenaline boost to guarantee 4 actions, and occasionally 5.  You're going to have issues with drain though to say the least.

Yeah mental slip, adrelaline boosts which is why I out in 'as many levels of... ...that you're crazy enough to buy'.  AdB[6] is 6 drain and not too many adepts start with an 18 Drain Pool but I guess a troll could get there.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Hobbes on <01-11-16/1743:43>
If you're okay with a 5 Magic, or prototype transhuman, a few levels of Damage Compensators goes a long way.  A decent body and will and the Stun comes back fast and combat is typically over in two rounds so you only take a few boxes.  It seems as though it would be pretty easily manageable, although I haven't had a chance to play a boost adept or see one played yet.  On paper it really seems workable.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Rooks on <01-12-16/0332:25>
I also take slab from boston lock down 14 high paint tolerance downside is the low pain tolerance but at least you dont pass out when your stun track is full
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <01-12-16/0655:22>
Slab? That's a drug in Stolen Souls that chemically induces a coma (or some such):
Quote
Originally designed as a surgical aid, slab places the user in a state of near hibernation where breathing and heart rate are lowered to an almost imperceptible level.

You're talking about Numb, right?
Quote
This drug functions by delivering a derivative of Novocain throughout the entire body. The user gains the High Pain Tolerance (14) quality for the duration of the drug, along with the ability to stay alert at times when unconsciousness normally would set in.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Rooks on <01-12-16/1240:20>
Probably get them confused cause theres a drug with a street name numb that does something else
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: FasterN8 on <01-18-16/2300:50>
meh if its one of those games I just take the +2d6 init booster then a dose of jazz
Drugs no longer implicitly stack with everything, per Chrome Flesh.

Whiskeyjack,
     I was rereading this thread and your comment caught my eye.  Would you mind pointing out where that was in Chrome Flesh?  I'd definitely like to see some of the stacking stuff cleared up. 

Thanks
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Whiskeyjack on <01-19-16/0817:50>
Sure, I can get that after work - currently AFB
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: FasterN8 on <01-19-16/0930:57>
Sweet. Thanks!
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: odd on <01-19-16/0943:23>
Sure, I can get that after work - currently AFB

I got your back Whiskeyjack.

On page 181 of Chrome flesh, under blood of Kali it says to remember your scores can't go above your augmented max.  I thought it was listed more clearly somewhere else too, but couldn't find it.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: falar on <01-19-16/0946:45>
On page 181 of Chrome flesh, under blood of Kali it says to remember your scores can't go above your augmented max.  I thought it was listed more clearly somewhere else too, but couldn't find it.
Nope. That's it. However, it's in very clear language, so there's that!

The only thing that it leaves kind of vague for me is whether drug initiative dice stack to +5d6. I'd assume so, but you never know.

Also ... do drugs that give you additional initiative dice translate to Astral/Matrix? I haven't seen anything to state otherwise, but I never really thought about it.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Hobbes on <01-19-16/0949:59>
Also ... do drugs that give you additional initiative dice translate to Astral/Matrix? I haven't seen anything to state otherwise, but I never really thought about it.

Unless something specifically says it adds to Astral or Matrix initiative they don't.  But I don't see why such a thing couldn't exist.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <01-19-16/0951:37>
Last I checked, Chrome Flesh only contains the mention about Augmented Maximums in the K-10 entry as odd points out.

This is mirrored in the Missions FAQ about what counts as an augmentation.
Quote from: Missions FAQ p. 28
Can you clarify what constitutes an Augmented Attribute?
Yes. Anything that increases an attribute above its natural, base score is considered an Augmentation. This includes cyberware, bioware, magic, adept powers, drugs, and anything else that adds to your attribute. In all cases, the limit of +4 remains in place unless a power or ability specifically says it breaks that cap.

Neither of these specifically disallow augmentation stacking, though this is partially covered by the specific rules for augmented attributes and certain pieces of equipment/consumables/gear.
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Jack_Spade on <01-19-16/0952:09>
There is the accelerator drug in Lockdown that explicitly say it is usually used to improve existing enhancements, so I'd say yes, drugs are the way to get 5d6 to ini.
They won't improve ini beyond AR for matrix users. That one is entirely dependent on the hardware used.
For Astral I really can only guess. Maybe if it's an awakened drug...
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: falar on <01-19-16/1420:06>
Also ... do drugs that give you additional initiative dice translate to Astral/Matrix? I haven't seen anything to state otherwise, but I never really thought about it.
Unless something specifically says it adds to Astral or Matrix initiative they don't.  But I don't see why such a thing couldn't exist.
Nothing specifically says it adds to meat initiative either, right? It only says that it adds Initiative and Initiative Dice, not where they apply. Where does it say that the default is meatspace?
Title: Re: Initiative Augmentation Options
Post by: Hobbes on <01-19-16/1520:16>
IIRC the initiative section doesn't stick an adjective on the front of meat space initiative.  So if you really need a mechanical definition "Initiative" is the physical kind.  "Astral Initiative" and "Matrix Initiative" are separate stats.