Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: demion on <09-17-15/1639:09>
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Many weapons come with an integraded gas-vent system 2. But the maximum rating for an gas-vent system would be 3. Now in the gas-vent explanation it's mentioned, that once applicated it can't be removed.
So, does this mean you can't upgrade weapons with a integrated gas-vent system 2 to rating 3? Is there really no way?
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This is one of the weirder RAW parts of the game: gun mods. I'll simply say it can be a little counterintuitive. Mods that come with a gun are integral and don't actually use the slot (p. 417, SR5). So this means a strict reading allows you to have whatever gas vent the gun comes with (integral, so no slot used) and an after-market gas vent 3 (using the barrel slot). Suffice to say, not all tables play this way and you get one gas vent--if your gun comes with one, you're stuck with it.
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The way I generally handle it is if you've a gun with Gas Venting 2, you can pay the difference to upgrade to level 3... however I also rule that the Ingram Smartgun X is an exception to this as it is the only weapon to feature both gas venting and a silencer, so to me this seems like a propitiatory technique unique to this weapon and it can't be further modified.
Also just be careful about guns that have recoil compensation, because not all of them get this via gas venting, sometimes it's internal design. An example of this is the Ares Alpha which gets it's recoil comp bonus from it's chamber design, this would stack fully with a gas venting system.
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I'd say Kincaid's answer is most in line with RAW. It's also silly, so I'd never play it that way.
I'd rule it that you can replace the current system. You have to buy the R3 one - you can't really combine a R2 and R1 one to get a better one, after all - and put it in, replacing enough bits of the old gas vent that it's not functioning anymore (leaving just the R3).
But that's just me.
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Actually, thanks to RnG (page 53. The red box at the top, with the table)
You couldn't do as Topdog says, as it explictily says "you can't put the same item twice and expect double the benefit"
So, no two gas vents.
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Is Gas Vent 2 the same item as Gas Vent 3? Also, you're only putting it in once.
Okay, now I'm being pedantic :). That line is probably on point, and regardless I think many GMs will follow that anyway.
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Ahhh...
I see what you are saying....
The barrel mounted GV3 overrides the integral GV2. Giving you JUST the bonus of the GV3.
Yea, I would go with that at my table too. It is still costing you the barrel slot and the cost of the GV3, for just a GV3 bonus. Yep. No issue at all.
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but gas venting is just porting the barrel of the gun (ie, milling holes). Gas vent isn't an object that is installed. This is how I've always viewed it. We play that you can absolutely increase the venting of the barrel from 1 to 2 to 3, since they aren't objects but a process. Also with the exception of the Ingram (?) which has both venting and silencer RAW, we don't allow both on guns.
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Not necessarily.
A compensator could be milled ventilation holes, but in theory you could also attach a device to the muzzle that vents the gas in an appropriate way, comparable to a muzzle break.
Regarding silencers and Compensators:
I'd allow putting both on the same gun, but not using them at the same time.
Constructing a compensator in a way that allows for an easy closing of its ventilation holes seems possible to me.
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That's a hard one, as it specifically says once a gas vent has been put in a firearm, it cannot be removed. That to me seems like it couldn't be modded either. But that said, I would rule at my table that you could request a custom job from your weapon's dealer if you pay the extra nuyen.
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The barrel-mounted GV3 cannot 'override' the integral part-of-the-barrel-already GV2. What is it going to do, stop up the vents?
If it's an integral system that's a modification to the structure of the weapon (as compared to the electronics, e.g. smartgun), you cannot 'upgrade' it by attaching another part to it; you may not even be able to upgrade the integral part. Generally, I would think that the replacement barrels made for the weapon (by the manufacturer, natch) all possess the same integral system. You could, however, pay an armorer for a custom modification - maybe he makes barrels sans integral GV2 for the weapon, and makes a fair amount of change from chummers like you. In this case, I would price the mod as being equivalent to at least 10%, maybe up to 30%, of the weapon cost, and with a reminder that using the weapon in such a fashion voids the weapon's warrantee. ;) The mod, note, does not include the upgrade, e.g. the GV3, the addition of which would cost the full price of the mod.
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I think a better question to ask is, "why do multiple ranks of this exist?" The mod is so inexpensive that nobody would ever purchase any version other than rank 3. Including ranks 1 and 2 seems pointless.
Seems like having a 2 recoil version that's reasonably priced, and a 3 recoil version that's very expensive would make an actual choice to consider.
That gas vent 1 though? I doubt anybody has ever used it.
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You could say that about 90% of all the weapons. Just look at assault rifles, why buy anything but an alpha straight out of character creation?
The reason would be fluff and not all beings either access or funds to buy sota. Gangers, hobbyists and clueless civilians will be the targets for the low grade and less efficient stuff.
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Hangers, hobbyists and clueless civilians players will be the targets for the low grade and less efficient stuff.
Fixed that for you ;D
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No no no. Players are always looking at big numbers, especially new or munchkins.
Back in 2 (maybe 3) the gas vents did come with a concealability penalty equal to their grade or something like that
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You could say that about 90% of all the weapons. Just look at assault rifles, why buy anything but an alpha straight out of character creation?
So you can have a weapon you can carry in public ?
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Logic! Fie!!
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You could say that about 90% of all the weapons. Just look at assault rifles, why buy anything but an alpha straight out of character creation?
So you can have a weapon you can carry in public ?
I didn't become a Shadowrunner to let the mean old Megacorps tell me what to do! If I want to carry an assault rifle with gas vent 3 on it then that's what I'm going to do and there's not a thing they can do to stop me. So there! :P
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So you can have a weapon you can carry in public ?
Ah, a bow then. And you don't need gas vent 3 then, because it would do nothing. 8)
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I'm just going to drop this here... gas vents and suppressors can't work together for the same reason silencers don't work on revolvers.
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Agreed. And that's how we play. The one gun that comes standard with both, we ruled that you have to choose which you are using because you can't use both.
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I'm just going to drop this here... gas vents and suppressors can't work together for the same reason silencers don't work on revolvers.
Actually, you can build revolvers in a way that allows them to be silenced, like with the Nagant M1895.
Usually there is just little to no utility in this, so nobody bothers.
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I'm just going to drop this here... gas vents and suppressors can't work together for the same reason silencers don't work on revolvers.
Actually, you can build revolvers in a way that allows them to be silenced, like with the Nagant M1895.
Usually there is just little to no utility in this, so nobody bothers.
True enough. You could, in theory, baffle the gas vent(s) just likea silencer does for the muzzle, to reduce the speed at which the gasses escape. In this case, it would reduce the concealability of the weapon significantly. It wouldn't help with the recoil of the outgoing round very much, but might assist with successive shots... which is how RC works in the game as it is, so I'm not sure how to further model that.
I haven't SEEN enough M1895s (much less worked on them) to confirm this, but I suspect that when their timing (alignment of the cylinder chambers to the barrel) wears, the progression from shaving lead to catastrophic failure is extremely rapid (moreso than "standard" revolvers, at least). So there's a potential tradeoff to the gas-sealing. Pretty fragging ingenious design, though.
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Yeah, its a really neat, simple and effective hack.
But as i said, there is (sadly, because this keeps people from working more on this problem) almost no application where you'd need a silenced weapon and would chose a revolver over an automatic.
Only use case that comes to my mind is a hunter who wants a high caliber revolver as a (supposedly) less dirt sensitive sidearm and wants to keep his hearing intact.
For anyone interested in the technical part:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvF4yurWSc0
Go to 0:50, and wait a bit, you can see how the cylinder moves forward to seal the gap.
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The other issue with the 1895 nagant is jamming. Care must be taken with the cylinder side lever to keep it clean or it gums up and jams the cylinder into the barrel, preventing you from firing until you take it apart and clean it.
Duelist is entirely right in the fact that there is almost no real practicle use of a silenced revolver where an automatic wouldn't be a better choice.
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Gas vents use the energetic exhaust directed a specific direction to mitigate barrel lift. If you baffle that you're preventing it from working. In game terms, you can switch between suppression and recoil compensation.
Now, I'm not saying you can't have recoil compensation with a silencer, just that gas vents won't work. The AA12 shotgun has a recoil cylinder where a counterweight that slides back internally. I suspect that's the Ares Alpha special recoil compensation.
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Gas vents use the energetic exhaust directed a specific direction to mitigate barrel lift. If you baffle that you're preventing it from working. In game terms, you can switch between suppression and recoil compensation.
Now, I'm not saying you can't have recoil compensation with a silencer, just that gas vents won't work. The AA12 shotgun has a recoil cylinder where a counterweight that slides back internally. I suspect that's the Ares Alpha special recoil compensation.
do you also write off the Ingram SMG like this?
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That one specifically says it has a suppressor and a gas vent. I then say pick one or the other operating for a specific burst. So you can have quiet mode or dakka mode.
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We've always ruled that when you buy the Ingram you have to choose whether it's a gas vented or silenced version. I seem to remember this was also an issue with the Barrett in earlier editions but can't remember if it's the case in 5th.