Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Tethra on <10-02-15/0307:16>
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... and resulting questions to which Iīd like a second opinion.
Hi everyone,
as the title says, some things are bugging me and Iīll cut right to the chase:
1.) Sheila Blatavska
Assumtions: She uses the names Hecate and Miss Tick, she is the person from whoīs perpective the fiction "...Midnight..." in Dawn of the the Artifacts: Midnight is written.
Who/what is she? She is ancient, well informed and important enough to participate in the discussion in the Atzlan sourcebook. During the time of the Dawn of the Artifacts, she suffers from a condition that letīs her age. In "...Midnight...", she instinctively uses a language I donīt recognize, though it might be sperethiel (use of "-ha"), but that would be jumping to conclusions on my part. I think itīs safe to say sheīs NOT Aina (character, relationships, activities donīt match).
Options:
A.) She is Alachia, former Queen of the Elven Court (for legal reasons) Prince Jennaīs mother. Iīm only mentioning it, because it was in the back of my head. As -AH- pointed out, she is oblivious of the (covert Ops) foreign policy of both Tirs in the Atzlan sourcebook, which makes it unlikely itīs Alachia, since she sits on the council of princes in Tir Tairngire and is close to Brane Deigh, maybe he power behind her. Maybe she has been kept out of the loop. If she was kept out of the loop, what was she doing in the conversation in the Atzlan sourcebook anyway? If Tir Na Nog fits her MO, the Mystic Crusaders do as well. Searching for artifacts would fit Alachiaīs obsession with the thread items (for legal reasons) stuff of others, but itīs thin. Sheila Blatavskaīs physical description doesnīt fit Alachiaīs.
B.) She is someone I donīt recognize. She is important enough to be in the conversation in the Atzlan sourcebook, i.e. on par with representatives from both Tirs (Ehran/Brane Deigh), Azania (Usomondo), Amazonia (Jungle Cat), the Great Dragons (Dunkie) and Harly. She accused Schwarzkopf of withholding knowledge from metahumanity. I get a "Theran" (for legal reasons) "Santorinian" vibe from her, but I have, sincerely, no idea. Help?
2.) The human at the Watergate Rift when Ghostwalker closed it.
Harley knew him from Vienna, which could have been 1529. After this encounter, Harley was in possession of Excalibur. The Penultimate Master of the Black Lodge was in town during this time.
Harley called him "the crusader".
Options:
A.) The Pendragon
I donīt know much about him. He was seemingly in possession of Excalibur. Harley possessed Excalibur after the Watergate Rift incident.
B.) The Penultimate Master of the Black Lodge
He was in town, he currently is/wears the disguise of some templar/crusader guy, he probably has the juice and skill to contribute to whatever they were up to. Before you jump in my face, keep in mind that we basically know nothing about the Black Lodge. They were anti elven, but, from what I read, because they were anti "Ancient-Powers-That-Be". They seem to have become what they wanted to fight, but thatīs a different story. So they are anti elven, anti dragon to a degree, but thatīs not their core agenda. Maybe a bigger cause made them cooperate. The human was with Surehand, the ousted High Prince of Tir Tairngire with an anti Lofwyr agenda. Lofwyr was hit from an BL power site during his duel with Alamais. Lofwyr was not present at the Watergate Rift. (Have to check that, please correct me if Iīm wrong.) We donīt know what the ancients know about the Black Lodge or how they stand to them, only that the Great Dragons going after them was new after their attack on Lofwyr.
C.) Pendragon/Penultimate Master, one and the same
After Ghostwalker closed the rift, Harly chose sides. Which one? Between which ones?
He sided with the Penultimate Master against the Powers That Be and got his hands on Excalibur.
Far fetched, I know.
D.) Some other immortal HUMAN
No idea, pls help me out.
3.) Dawn of the Artifacts, Artifacts Ubound
I donīt know what these were about. Seriously, I donīt.
I know how Ghostwalker flarked everyone to get his beloved one back from the dead, but that wasnīt what everyone was up to. What did Ehran want with the artifacts in the first place? What did he accomplish? What was Blatavska up to? Is she still aging? What was "beginning"? Why were the ancients gathering in Washington? What is the artifacts purpose? I donīt know. If anybody does: Please enlighten me.
Have fun, everyone
P.S. Please excuse my bad English, itīs not my native language.
P.P.S. Personal choices: 1B, 2C (Lodge of Merlin, Morgana, Mordred... Okay, itīs "in your face", but Harly always thought of *strangewaytowrite"Arthur"* as an idiot. Does someone remember where that was?)
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Elves weren't the only immortal race created by the dragons. The Denairastas clan was also created and they were humans. The Black Lodge seems similar enough in agenda that it could be the remnants of the Denairastas clan. I hope that helps, but it more likely muddied the waters. Legally, you won't get an answer because Earthdawn and Shadowrun are different intellectual property and held by different companies. They literally cannot make the explicit claim that joins the two worlds.
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I can't speak much for 2) or 3) but as for 1):
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=6370.0 is the last time Sheila was discussed in brief back in 2012.
From the stuff I remember being discussed most seem to agree she is PROBABLY Alachia, or someone close to Alachia. That said, there has never been any confirmation (or on half of the posters in the Aztlan file either). Also remember, as far as Immortals and Dragons go, just because they don't match the expected description doesn't mean much, people at that power level are more than capable of changing what they look like.
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Thank you for your replies.
@CitizenJoe
My Earthdawn knowledge is extremely limited, but as far as I remember, Elves were indeed the only immortal offspring of Great Dragons and other namegivers. (Iīm not sure about dwarves, though.) The rest were just long lived, but had other traits. (I remember some kind of "super-versatility" being the trait of human dragonkin.)
I know that one idea behind the Black Lodge was it being Team Outcast. Also, that said idea never made it into the official material and for legal reasons, never will. But my idea was rather that the human at the Watergate Rift COULD have been the Penultimate Master and that it COULD be that the Penultimate Master and the Pendragon are one and the same person. I wanted to pick the brains of you all in case I missed the obvious. This question should not touch Earthdawn.
I should rephrase my first point, though. Thanks for the reminder. :)
@ProfGast
That was actually the reason I started this post in the first place. I was with the Alachia=Sheila crowd in the past, but when I questioned my position, it turned out I had no real reason to believe Hecate was Alachia in the first place. And then some other things I didnīt know came to mind.
Yes, Alachia COULD disguise herself, but she didnīt during the meetings of the Tir council. *shrug* I asume vanity is a factor. And Alachia being hands on and in the field? And why would she be aging? And Hecate was oblivious of Tir politics. Nothing to completely dismiss the notion, but....
Usomondo, Jungle Cat and Hecate are uncertain, the rest is pretty much obvious, from later publications and the way they relate to each other.
Thanks for the link. :)
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The Denairastas clan was pretty much cast as villains. Uhl was very ancient, but the setting did not stretch long enough to declare him immortal. And that plot got cut off before the separation of properties so there was never a confirmation of identity. The trick is somehow getting the power immunity to aging.
Vampires do not exist in Earthdawn because blood magic was so powerful that vampires feeding on blood provided untenable power issues. That being said, Ritual of the Thorns level magic was well within their power. It is a very easy hop to believe that the Denairastas developed a blood magic ritual which essentially made them vampires. That would grant immunity to aging.
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@CitizenJoe
None of them made it. In a reality that for legal reasons doesnīt exist, the Penultimate Master is possessed/in a spirit pact with an ancient spirit, that was supposed to be either Outcast or one of his minions. Thatīs where he getīs his immunity to aging from. Thatīs why he is the "penultimate", not the "ultimate" master. On a site note: The Lodges trait is that incorporates all magical traditions. Human versatility. Unified Magic Theory? If Outcast was still around (in the back of my head, there is a note that says he bit the dust, but Iīm not sure... It has been a long time...), my money would be on Schwarzkopf.
I guess the Penultimate Master being in a spirit pact is still the case, just the identity of said spirit may be different.
Err... there actually were vampires in Earthdawn. Low level horrors, horror constructs, something like that. They are the reason some older folks still connect Essence Drain with Horrors. (Including me.) AncientHistory debunked the connection. Of course heīs wrong. *duck*
(Srsly, who knows what happens to MMVV victims, once their masters return?)
I think nobody pulled off an immortality ritual in Earthdawn. That being said: Never underestimate human versatility, especially combined with that human disciplin which allowed you to develop traits of other races. (The rules only gave the option to get their racial attribute modifiers, I donīt know what else was implied.)
The only case of human immortality from ED times, ignoring horror marks, I can remember, was "The Nameless Lad" from "Legends".
Edit: Someone might have pulled off a ritual that granted immortality as a byproduct. In the 4th Edition Cyberware book, there was something about cybermancy based on rituals to create a "Great One" from Azania, somehow connected to the Havenheard tribe. Azania is a former Theran colony, the Havenheard College a group of their elite mages. Cybermancy, by 4th Edition rules, granted immunity to aging.
Btw. Does someone know what "Great One" means?
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The no vampires in Earthdawn came from one of the developers himself. I think it was Lou Prosperi. Don't quote me on that, but it was one of them. If vampirism did show up, it came from later writers when the rights were leased out.
I'm also 90% sure that the dragon Denairastas, who gave the family the name, was The Outcast.
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The no vampires in Earthdawn came from one of the developers himself. I think it was Lou Prosperi. Don't quote me on that, but it was one of them. If vampirism did show up, it came from later writers when the rights were leased out.
Yes and No.
Vampires are actually mentioned in an example about Pattern Items in the 1st Edition Earthdawn Companion, pg 48,
In addition to learning the Key Knowledge held by a
Pattern Item, it is also necessary to know the truth behind the knowledge the Pattern Item
represents.
Grolk enters the village of Corthy, hunting a vampire who has bitten the archer Delthrien. While in
the village he hears a story about how a gem merchant managed to ward off the vampire with a clove
of garlic. Grolk now knows that garlic affects this vampire, and he reasons that this knowledge is
the sort associated with a Pattern Item. The ability of garlic to drive off a vampire sounds like
a magical interaction derived from the nature of the vampire's true pattern. Grolk now needs the clove that drove off the
vampire. The clove of garlic is a Minor Pattern Item for the vampire.
However no actual stats for vamps as critters are mentioned until 2nd edition, which by then was under Living Room Games- who had gotten the license from FASA.
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They also talk about Superman and Clark Kent's glasses IIRC.
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In Companion or Core? do not recall that, but could see them being a Major Pattern Item for our favourite reporter. ;)
Clark Kent's Glasses
Thread Ranks
Rank 1: Cost : 300
Key Knowledge: The wearer must learn the name of the glasses
Effect: The glasses add +2 dice to any Disguise attempt
Rank 2 Cost 500
Effect: Wearer is seen to be very mild mannered and well liked.
Add +2 Dice to any Friendly social interactions,
-2 Dice to any hostile social interactiongs (ie not very intimidating)
Rank 3 Cost 800
Key Knowledge: Wearer must learn about Clark Kent's alter ego.
Effect: The glasses add another +2 Dice to any Disguise attempt.
Rank 4 Cost 1,300
Effect: Even if told that the wearer is in Disguise, observers must make a successful Charisma + Willpower (3) Test to believe this statement.
Otherwise they dismiss the person telling them as being sadly mistaken.
Does not stop someone from seeing through the disquise itself, they just might not believe someone else telling them it is a disguise, which would normally negate or at least provide a bonus to see through the disguise.
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How the hell did this thread end up here? ^^
@CitizenJoe
I was under the assumption Outcast and Denairastas were the same Dragon. I almost always mistype "Denairastas" (Copy -> Paste works), hence I use "Outcast". Sry for the confusion.
When it comes to sourcebooks: Iīm German and owned the German versions of the Earthdawn books. (Still own them, I hope, somewhere, inside some box.) I have no idea what version I played (books had a FASA logo on them). The Core Rulebook had stats for vampires. The last time I touched the books was 15 years ago.
@Sendaz
Nice one! :)
(But shouldnīt the costs be in Karma/Street Rep/Fame?)
Seriosly, how did we end up here?
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Road Trip Forum Style!!!! 8)
Sorry, the costs were in old ED terms of Legend points.
Anyway, back on topic...
As to your mystery woman, I would probably suggest throwing it at Wyrm and see what he knows on it as he is sort of the resident LoreKeeper.
The other prob is there is often minor tweaks between the core English and german translations, which can make for interesting discussions when your sources may differ (granted should still be pretty close, but there are variations.)
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You can use standard EarthDawn references, Tethra.
As for either of them, I don't recall precisely Blatavska's identity - or if it's been officially (or unofficially) revealed. IIRC she and Frosty go toe-to-toe at the end of the whole Artifacts thing, and if she had been Alachia, she would have wiped the floor with Frosty, Harlequin's teaching or not. She is more than likely to be another Immortal Elf - as the first Threats book says, there are less than 25 IEs (though the writer screwed up whether or not Frosty was a new IE, which she is), and we only have names for what, maybe a dozen of them? And we lost one in DC (Aina)? Given that, and presuming that she is a) an IE and b) not one we know of, she most likely is one who was born late in the 4th World, who doesn't have a whole lot more skill/experience with magic that Frosty does.
If she is, as MoleMan suggests in the Threats book, the standard straight-up human mage-with-Talent Maria Kapatelis, then that might put her at Frosty's power-level. She might have Alachia's backing - if Alachia's done with being on the throne (per se) and is working behind the scenes, then that would make some amount of sense, having fingers in as many pies as possible.
In regards to the human in DC, I vaguely remember that being figured out here on the boards, but don't quote me on that.
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IIRC she and Frosty go toe-to-toe at the end of the whole Artifacts thing, and if she had been Alachia, she would have wiped the floor with Frosty, Harlequin's teaching or not.
I read each of them, and there is no such thing at the end of any of the Dawn of the Artifacts or Artifacts Unbound adventures.
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Frosty and Jenna NiFairra get into a mage-off in Something Dark in the Woods, one of the Artifacts Unbound collection.
Previous debates/arguments resulted in Alachia being considered distinct from Sheila Blatavska. I know I had to reconsider my belief.
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Jenna is Alachia's daughter. They look the same save for different hair color.
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Sry for answering so late, things came up.
Thanks everyone for your replies.
Like Nath, I did not find the encounter between Frosty and Blatavska in the Artifacts series
Wyrm mentioned, but I did find the encounter between Frosty and Jenna, complete with stats and all, Longshot23 mentioned.
Letīs just hope future publications shed some light on her. I was really hoping I simply missed something...
Another question:
The Penultimate Master and the Black Lodge.
What do we really know about them if we assume the Denairastas angle is off the table? (Unless someone can give me a good reason why thatīs still a viable option...)
We have seen stats for J.W. Ellis, a member of the Lodge of Merlin, Judge of the Lodge of Morgana (NA), which didnīt impress me much. According to "Threats" he should be a grade 13+ initiant. Ellis is grade 7. (Ellis is also a social adept, maybe he just scammed his way into his position, but I doubt it.)
One of the Black Lodgeīs power sites was used, presumably by them, to hit Lofwyr during his duel with Alamais. Lofwyr survived. I have no idea how to compare this to Hestabyīs attack on Alamais, who was presumably in his lair or at a protected site when a much more skilled Hestaby (much more skilled than those who attacked Lofwyr, that is, according to Lung) hit him from a damaged powersite. Alamais also survived.
Do you guys and gals believe it was the Black Lodge who took a shot at Lofwyr?
If so, in addition to Ellisī stats, they donīt seem to be the mysterious ubermages anymore. Thoughts?
Have fun, everyone!
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Why did Denairastas come off the table?
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We have seen stats for J.W. Ellis, a member of the Lodge of Merlin, Judge of the Lodge of Morgana (NA), which didnīt impress me much. According to "Threats" he should be a grade 13+ initiant. Ellis is grade 7. (Ellis is also a social adept, maybe he just scammed his way into his position, but I doubt it.)
Karma doesn't buy what it used to, especially when it's Magic and Initiation being purchased.
What do we really know about them if we assume the Denairastas angle is off the table? (Unless someone can give me a good reason why thatīs still a viable option...)
I assume he's off the table for a couple of reasons. First, in ED, he had to refresh the line directly because it would become too diluted over generations. Unless he was accessible during the Fifth World, the clan would presumably have died out by now. Second, there is apocrypha online about the secret origin of the Black Lodge based on material that was intended to be but for whatever reason was not published and is therefore not canon. That origin doesn't involve dragons.
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Yeah. And it's so cool.
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Why couldn't it be both? :o ::)
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I think that it is a dangerous assumption to think that the Denairastas clan couldn't make it through the 5th world.
However, the simple fact is that the Denairastas clan and the Black Lodge share the same role in the classic story telling structure. So, it could be completely coincidence that they appear because that organization type is needed by the narrative.
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I think it's a dangerous assumption that they could - because if they could, then they already would have, and really, we'd have about a hundred and sixty immortal humans running around, if not many, many more. A 'diluted line' is a genetic concern for the first two or three generations, yes, but the thing is that you need that 'dilution' in order to create a family line that doesn't fall afoul of its own negatives. If you want a good example of this in modern fiction, look at Charles Stross' 'Merchant Princes' series - which goes south after the second or third book, writing- and concept-wise, but explains pretty solidly why you want an 'inner family' and an 'outer family' which the inner family interbreeds with, exactly in order to prevent those negatives (sickle-cell anemia, anyone) from cropping up.
Only thing is, humans breed like humans - a generation is 20 years. Which means in the ensuing 5,000, virtually everyone in the world is going to be a carrier, and there are going to be a goodly number of actual expressions among them.
Denairastas and the Outcast, I always had the sense, were forbidden - and if the latter continued to 'reinforce' the bloodlines of the former by breeding with them, I think that down the line all the great dragons and other immortals would have come down on the Outcast and Denairastas like an automatic sledgehammer on a Ming vase - complete and utter destruction. Which, IMO, is (or should be) the treatment they receive in SR: 'they don't exist any more'.
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I should mention that every other entry in Threats that has reappeared has followed the Game Information section of that Threat very closely, if not exactly. Vampires/Ordo Maximus, Alamos 20K, the Secret Hive, Mr. Darke, Halberstam, Winternight, KSAF, Lofwyr, the Blood Mage Gestalt, the Human Nation, Strain III, Tutor, and immortal elves all tracked with the mechanics and information set forth in that book. So why would you expect the Black Lodge to be any different in that regard? The book was published in 1996 at the height of the gestalt formed by connecting Shadowrun and Earthdawn more closely. The Black Lodge had no Fourth World connection; rather, their hatred for the Tírs was purely competitive. "The Black Council views the elven nations as rival organizations seeking the same goals, using very similar means." Threats, 83.
The Penultimate Master identified in Threats saw battle in the Crusades and was born in the 13th or 14th century, which is a pretty strong hint as to The Crusader's identity. To be honest, just the idea of how much work went into that guy should merit a great deal of deference.
That said, the Black Lodge since described in Loose Alliances and the mid-2000s did take certain liberties with that information. Subsequent meddling by yours truly and other active writers has taken its own course.
Anyway, I'm not going to say you're wrong. I'm not inclined to say any idea is wrong. Some may be. They all may be. We may have weaseled our way into tying all of this stuff together. But meanwhile, this discussion is fascinating.
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I'd like to point out that the dragons DID come down hard on the Outcast. It isn't just some nickname.
Magic didn't completely disappear like a manavoid. It just dropped to very low levels. So low that you couldn't pull off flashy effects... except for all those times when people did... ever hear of a miracle?
I've got zero problems with some sort of cult, likely using blood magic, that could pass down a legacy through the generations, possibly by spirit pacts and inhabited hosts. I've got zero problems with Dragons hiding in astral cocoons as developed by All Wings to get through the Third World. I've got zero problems with cults communing with said dragons as gods during that time.
I've also got zero problems with all that falling apart or getting twisted.
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Then by all means use them in your game. When it comes to canon, on the other hand ...
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Canon will never allow it explicitly because the intellectual properties are owned by separate companies.
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... because it's already been essentially established as being not Denairastas - nor has the Denairastas clan ever been brought into SR Canon. Q.E.D.
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That just means we can't use any material produced by LRG or Red Brick. If FASA owned the IP, it's fair game for us.
I should add that in The Clutch of Dragons, someone was killing a lot of people who could have either been tied to downcycle hunters, or dragon-meta matings, or something else, or all of the above, or none of the above.
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It would be really interesting to find a journal/log of someone who had been one of the downtime hunters who had been removing dragons while they slept through the changing of the ages, if only to see what form the big wyrms took during this time.
Were they fully physical and flesh but just sleeping?
Maybe they turned to stone during the downtime, or cocooned partially in the astral to maintain themselves down through the ages...
While they called it sleeping, it could have taken many forms.
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Down cycle hunting seems pretty sketchy to me. From what I read, All Wings started the cycles of magic as a means of starving the Horrors. She discovered later that her kind couldn't survive in the low mana environment, so she developed some sort of astral pocket dimensions which her kin could hibernate until magic levels rose again. But if they were astral, how did hunters get to them without magic?
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All the talk of bloodlines takes me back to the reference from first SR novels. At least one Dragon was using the "night of rage" as cover for killing members of a certain bloodline.
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The Penultimate Master identified in Threats saw battle in the Crusades and was born in the 13th or 14th century, which is a pretty strong hint as to The Crusader's identity.
It should be noted that part is kinda tricky, if you are to follow very closely, if not exactly, how the Game Information in Theats are worded.
Threats, page 83
The Penultimate Master
[...] Members of the Lodge of Merlin take the names, mannerisms and physical appearances of historical figures known to have practiced the arcane arts. For example, the current Penultimate Master is, for all intents and purposes, the Scotsman named Oliver Sinclair, member of a wealthy family of French refugees who pledged their loyalty to the Scottish king Robert Bruce in 1308. The gamemaster can choose from any number of such people from any period in history and any culture to convince the player characters that they are dealing with an unknown, unimaginably powerful force.
In the fiction, the Penultimate Master is claiming to be one Oliver Sinclair, disappeared in 1545, before revealing he was Jacques de Molay, born in 1264.
So he is, just like the Game Information, says, taking at least the name and physical appearance of Oliver Sinclair, an historical figure known to have practiced the arcane arts (or at least rumored to have considering the narrator's findings). Hard to say about the mannerisms. Indeed, it never said the adopted persona had to be older than their actual identity as you would assume if members of the Lodge of Merlin were normal people. Neither does it mention an additional layer of backup persona or anything like that. So as far the fiction and the game information go, the Penultimate Master can be Jacques de Molay.
Interestingly enough, 1264 is a decade or two later than what most historians hold to be Molay birth year. Also, the history of the Sinclair family and the Rosslyn chapel differs from RL History (the Sinclair line goes back to a William Saint Clare in 1280, with the Saint Clair name first showed up in Scotland as early as 1068, and there were no Ranald Sinclair, one William Sinclair, founded the Rosslyn Chapel).
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If he's supposed to be Jacques de Molay, then the Game Information should've said he was Jacques de Molay. For all intents and purposes.
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So many things on my mind, so many questions.
@CitizenJoe
Err... All-Wings did create the cycles? I didnīt know. Could you elaborate on that? My knowledge of Earthdawn is fairly limited. (I did know the Therans managed to stabilize the declining magic, but...) Itīs not a natural phenomenon?
@PrimeMover
Didnīt Sirrurg bring down a plane simply for the purpose of killing one mage aboard it? There was something about Sirrurg taking out dragonslayers, iirc?
As for the (supposed) Black Lodge Denairastas connection:
IIRC, the connection was via the spirit being in a spirit pact with the Penultimate Master, not via members of the Denairastas family being members of the Black Lodge. Said spirit was rumored to be a deceased member of the Denairastas familiy or the Outcast himself. This isnīt disproven by the fact the Denairastas familiy isnīt around anymore. Itīs rather not a matter of discussion, because it has never been stated (in any official material, as far as I know) in the first place.
I just skimmed "Loose Alliances" and found something about the Black Lodge in the part about the Vigilia Evangelica. Something about a part about the VE breaking away and going rogue after a Cisterian Monk started having "visions or some such".
I would really like to know more about the Black Lodge (and the Atlantean Foundation... and the Pendragon...).
Hm... How about the Pendragon being the Penultimate Master? Any thoughts?
IIRC the "Templars" (OOO-Agents) were after the Freamasons, an unofficial subsidiary of Black Lodge, Inc.?
Does anyone remember where Harly says something about "Arīthu" gaining "more credit he doesnīt deserve"?
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If he's supposed to be Jacques de Molay, then the Game Information should've said he was Jacques de Molay. For all intents and purposes.
I'd say if he was supposed to be over two hundred years old, whatever his original name was, then the Game Information should have said it.
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@CitizenJoe
Err... All-Wings did create the cycles? I didnīt know. Could you elaborate on that? My knowledge of Earthdawn is fairly limited. (I did know the Therans managed to stabilize the declining magic, but...) Itīs not a natural phenomenon?
I never read about that before, but the idea is interesting (though I'm also wondering if it wouldn't be one of those case where someone mixed up All-Wings and Dayheart).
One crucial point about the mana cycles is that the odd-numbered "cycles" are low-mana, dragon-free and horror-free era. Whoever called it "the first world" was calling out a world deprived of magic as the beginning of something (which would be odd for a dragon who's going to miss it entirely while it sleeps).
@PrimeMover
Didnīt Sirrurg bring down a plane simply for the purpose of killing one mage aboard it? There was something about Sirrurg taking out dragonslayers, iirc?
That was hinted at in Dragons of the Sixth World by a Laughin Man (aka Harlequin) post about "hunting the hunters".
When the Euroair 329 story was originally introduced, the authors were not feeling compelled to make Great Dragons as mighty as they now are considered. So to speak, the discrepancy between Euroair 329 story with Sirrurg and Tehran destruction by Aden was reconciled by making Great Dragons consistently nearly unstoppable and retconning the awakened passenger 57 into a more mysterious, powerful figure than he was supposed to be originally.
IIRC the "Templars" (OOO-Agents) were after the Freamasons, an unofficial subsidiary of Black Lodge, Inc.?
According to London SB and Shadows of Europe, the British freemasonery is supposed to have been "superceded" or "swallowed" by the New Druidic Movement. The whole point of the NDM, setting-wise, was to be a stand-in for a Sixth World, awakened and celtic-inspired, freemasonery that would control Great Britain. So it's unlikely the OOO would hunt down freemasons, and I did not find (so far) a reference that would suggest otherwise.
Threats states the Black Lodge recruits its members among freemasons in Europe and North America. Conspiracy Theories outright mentions the NDM at least as a recruitment pool. To think the NDM upper echelon might have doubled as the British chapter of the Black Lodge is a daunting idea to say the least. But isn't it actually written down in Threats that the Black Lodge "control or heavily influence governments of all types" ?
I guess it wouldn't be that hard to find pawns in Westminster to pursue an anti-elven agenda with regards to the relationships between Great Britain and "Ireland".
While we're at it, let's remind Artifacts Unbound and Conspiracy Theories describes several higher-ups in the UCAS Congress as Black Lodge members. It worth noting it has all the members of the Lodge of Morgana belonging to the UCAS Congress, implying lodges in the rest of the North America continent somewhat are subsidiaries of Washington (Joseph Willis Ellis, who is Speaker of the UCAS House and representative of Saint Louis district in Missouri, did head the CAS Lodge of Mordred according to Threats Game Information). Also, the chantry used by the Lodge of Merlin, "most likely [...] in Scotland or continental Europe" according to Threats Game Information, was set to be in Georgetown.
Shadows of Europe also gave some information about the Black Lodge operations in France, where the Lodge of Mordred was led by a catholic cardinal (with the Game Information there referring to a Knight Templar origin). The lodge backed French noble houses' political ascension during the 21st century, helping them in establishing the so-called "Project Omen" to seize power with the use of divination. By 2063, the French aristocracy was starting to divide into two factions, one led by noble houses of Britanny with strong ties to druidism (and Tir na nOg), and another led by more traditionalist, catholic noble houses, with a military background who originally had Black Lodge support (with neither of those side on a friendly footing with the Brits...).
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I just recently saw someone post that dragon legend about All Wings. Or maybe it is Day Heart. But yes, the legend says that a dragon caused the magic cycle to ebb as a means of starving out the Horrors.
As to the first world being magical... world numbering starts with the second. Before that, it is just The World. Someone in what we call the Second World, or Age of Dragons, determined that it was different from the time before. For them it was the current age and prehistory. Eventually the dragons left, leaving current times, the Age of Dragons and prehistoric times. Since the concept of zero doesn't show up for tens of thousands of years, the worlds get numbered 1 to 3.
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As to the first world being magical... world numbering starts with the second. Before that, it is just The World. Someone in what we call the Second World, or Age of Dragons, determined that it was different from the time before. For them it was the current age and prehistory. Eventually the dragons left, leaving current times, the Age of Dragons and prehistoric times.
What I find interesting is that one dragon does abide to this numbering of ages - IIRC it's Dunkelzahn who popularized the expression "Sixth World" in his first interview.
If we make the assumption the cycle of magic applies since the first age, dragons have only been around, laying and hatching eggs during the second, fourth and sixth age, or before the first age. We do know dragons live and sleep long enough to get from a even age to the next. So during the so-called "Second World" (or Age of Dragons), there would have been dragons old enough to have seen and remember the world before the "First World", and dispute that name. This prompts me to consider some alternatives...
- The Second World was known as the Age of Dragons because there were no dragons before, and possibly no magic at all on Earth. So to speak, the First Age started with Humanity, or mammals, or Earth creation, and ended with magic and dragons.
- There was no dragons to tell about the world before the first because Verjigorm had them all killed during a previous scourge. A number of eggs went unscathed and hatched at the beginning of the Second World, leaving a new generation of dragons with no record of ancient history (or alternatively, a limited number of ancient dragons, like All-Wings, who would hide the young what happened before, possibly inventing the Dayheart mythos then).
- Dunkelzahn willingly followed a numbering of ages established by humans (like Mesoamerican mythos' Five Suns or Hesiod's Five Ages). Considering how naming is important to dragons, maybe establishing that name was a way of saying his fellow dragons something along the lines of "humans are the actual rulers of this planet throughout History, we dragons are only passing". The actual number of ages recorded by the dragons may be greater.
- The dragons know zero (and fencepost errors) long before humanity, and didn't feel the need to explain lesser creatures how to properly number the passing ages.
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Remember that dragons use interpreters. They normally communicate directly via telepathy. In order to communicate digitally, they have an interpreter speak for them. That allows for misquotes, particularly for naming conventions.
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Remember that dragons use interpreters. They normally communicate directly via telepathy. In order to communicate digitally, they have an interpreter speak for them. That allows for misquotes, particularly for naming conventions.
Technically, while in metahuman form they can speak normally. In their draconic form, they either need to use an interpreter, use telepathy, or use magic to generate a voice.
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Little known fact: Dragons are able to speak, if a bit roughly as their mouth structure is not designed for the shaping of many of our sounds, but refrain from doing so due to a quirk in their biology whereupon they naturally produce helium gases.
They are able to expel this gas to serve as a physical medium for the elemental dragonbreath to 'ride' on, not unlike a alchemical preparation in a sense though on an instantaneous basis.
While fire is the most common expression, dragonbreath utilizing other elements effects have been reported.
One oriental dragon was able to enchant elemental water effects onto his breath attack, thus creating a thick fog that confused and mislead those caught within it.
This oddity of the production of helium gas within their body, which a normal biology should not be able to produce, was first discovered thanks to a mysterious donation of a nearly dead and crippled dragon to a research facility that shall remain unnamed to protect them from retribution for their study and eventual dissection of the draco.
The researchers found various organic 'stacks' attached to and running along side the lungs that's sole purpose seems to be producing and retaining this lighter than air gas while being able to vent directly into the lungs as a reflex action.
It was theorized that the production of this lighter than air gas was the original source of the creatures power of flight, but the amount produced and retained is simply not sufficient to provide sufficient lift given their considerable mass. However it is possible that the gas producing capability predates the Dragons usage of magic and might have reduced the weight of these early proto-dragons enough to allow limited gliding, but this can not be substantiated due to a lack of any fossil records to support this. Likewise it would not explain those oriental subspecies that lacked wings altogether and thus would not have had a gliding phase in their development. Nor can it explain how the venting mechanism that the dragons eventually utilized for their dragonbreath ability might have evolved.
This constant production invariably leads to a continual low level leakage of helium into the respiratory system, which affects their vocal cords just as it would a human breathing in a helium balloon.
The high pitched squeaky voice resulting from this is an embarrassment to all dragons and as such they refuse to speak to the lesser races directly so as to not make themselves a possible target of ridicule, granted short lived if done in front of said dragon, and thus stain the majestic image that they strive to maintain at all costs.
:P
That said, will pay good nuyen to anyone who can provide a confirmed undoctored recording of Ol' Goldsnout talking in his chipmunk voice.
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*snorks*
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Sendaz's post is one of the reasons I wish we could still give rep bonuses. Well done, sir.
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Now all I can imagine is a Great Dragon pop band, all with chipmunk sounding voices. The band name, maybe L' & the Greats!
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Tangentially related. I worked on a space opera setting where the hydrogen economy was a big thing. Gravity and mass were still issues for space travel although there were some FTL and alien tech. In any case, the Sol system gas giants were being mined for Helium-3 fusion fuel. Helium-4 is the inert gas we commonly thing about when we say helium. Due to mass concerns, space ships would often use helium as a buffer gas instead of nitrogen. And the dive ships which would enter the atmosphere of Uranus had multiple pressure hulls, plus hardsuits for the crew. Even then, they would use a heliox mixture for the dives. These were some of the bravest and baddest ass mutha fraggers in the solar system and they all sounded like mickey mouse because of the helium.