Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Beta on <10-23-15/1615:23>
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First of all, I missed putting the '?' at the end of the title -- I'm asking, not telling!
I’m looking for some feedback on a character idea. I played a bit back in 1st edition, and am running a one player game in 5th (only PC is a motorcycle racing cat shaman—not optimized for power, but in a one player game that isn’t a big issue as everything is balanced around that one character). So I don't really have a feel for how flexible characters can be in terms of drifting from the main archetypes.
I’m joining an online game, and have an idea that I like, but I just don’t have a good feel for whether it is a viable character. Concept is a summoning adept elven woman, who is recently out of prison after serving 40+ years for cop killing – she hadn’t really figured out that she had magic back then and screening was not as advanced, so her magic was not detected, and in the high background count of prison she didn’t really develop it, instead relying on become tough and intimidating to survive decades of hell. Her mentor welcomed her with open wings (Thunderbird) once she was released, and since then she’s worked intensely on developing her magic and shooting ability.
Short form: cheap elf shaman/face to use that effeciency to balance off the awfulness that is aspected mage rules in 5th.
I’m not going to post every skill bought at one point with karma, or the details of her minimal gear as all that is easy to tweak, I’m just looking for feedback of “do you think in a more ordinary group, this character can make a useful contribution, or is it not focussed enough?
== Priorities ==
Metatype: D - Elf
Attributes: A - 24 Attributes
Special: B - Adept, Magician, or Technomancer (aspected summoner: 5 magic, 4 skill group points in a magic skill group)
Skills: C - 28 Skills/2 Skill Groups
Resources: E – 6000
== Attributes ==
BOD: 3
AGI: 6
REA: 5
STR: 3
CHA: 8
INT: 5
LOG: 2 (1 point bought with karma)
WIL: 4
EDG: 1
MAG: 5
== Derived Attributes ==
Essence: 6
Initiative: 10+1d6
Drain dice 12
==Qualities==
- Spirit affinity (air)
- Too pretty to hit
- Mentor spirit – Thunderbird
- Sinner: criminal
- (other negative qualities to bring total to 25, of course)
== Active Skills ==
Conjuring group: 6 (summoning, binding, banishing) (+2 for conjuring spirits of air, from Thunderbird)
Con : 4 Pool: 12
Intimidation : 6 Pool: 16 (+2 from Thunderbird)
Negotiation : 4 Pool: 12
Pistols : 4 Pool: 10
Sneaking : 4 Pool: 10
Unarmed : 6 Pool 12
1 skill point bought with karma for at least: Asensing (pool 6), Etiquette (pool 9), Gymnastics (pool 7), Perception (pool 6)
Gear: key piece for the concept is shock gloves – should be able to land a touch attack on most foes and do decent damage in most cases. A reasonable pistol, fake ID, commlink are the big ticket items, requiring some karma going into additional nuyen.
General strategy:
- Always have a spirit up, use abilities liberally (conceal, movement, scouting, etc.)
- First choice of tactic is intimidate
- In combat aim to go on full defense (where she has 18 dice to defend), then give orders to her spirit (and re-summoning spirits as needed)
- Use pistol as needed for extra ping
- If she can talk her way close (or sneak in close using spirit concealment), or if attacked in melee, can use shock gloves. Not enough strength to do a lot of damage otherwise.
Thoughts on the character? At a high level, does it seem viable, or not good enough in any one area to work well with others? Would you approach a conjuring adept in a different way entirely?
Things I’ve looked at from a more tactical point of view
- A less ‘face’ type build, keeping intimidate but lowering Negotiate and Con for higher pistols, gymnastics, running.
- Swap pistols for automatics (covering fire!).
- Magic 5 is very annoying, but raising metavariant to C (brining magic to 6 and edge to 3) would mean dropping to skills D, leaving the conjuring group at 4 and also losing six skill points (probably from Negotiate and Con). I’m not convinced this would be worth it. There is a sum-to-ten build of attributes A, magic, metavariant, and skills all C, resources D that would somewhat work if it were not for the rule about not being able to use skill points to add onto a skill group in character creation. Aspected mage with magic priority ‘C’ is forced to take skill group 2 in their area, then can only improve on that with karma. Aspected really does not get much love in 5th edition! So I think edge to 2 and magic to 6 are the goal for the first 40 karma earned …
- With enough scrimping and scraping, could take martial arts (possibly ’52 blocks’) and even specialize unarmed combat in the martial art – but with no initiative enhancement she shouldn’t be planning on getting in to too many brawls, so I think that could be adding a strength that she’d seldom get to use.
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Aspected Mages get a raw as heck deal in 5th edition. And Magic 5 doesn't help. For a mere 4 Attribute points (moving Attributes from A to B) and bumping up Magic to A you gain a phenomenal amount of abilities. There are a multitude of Elf Face/Mage builds floating around on this board. Take a look at a few of them for ideas.
We'll put that aside and let you think on it.
Elf priority B and Magic D gets you up to Magic 6, and gives you two points of edge at the cost of 4 group skill points. Consider it.
Unarmed Combat for this character would be borderline suicidal at some tables, if you've gotten surprise and want to take them alive I recommend Tasers and save yourself the skill points.
If the team doesn't have a dedicated face you're going to be it, I really hate to say 12 dice is bad. But 12 dice is bad for Negotiation. Most Fixers and Johnson's will have more dice for bargaining and that is the biggest use of Negotiation. Either let the team Face do it, if you're the team face you'll really want to drag the skill up to 6 with a Bargaining spec. Or skip it completely, also a perfectly good option. Negotiation is kind of a special case where normal sized dice pools need not apply, its a "Go big or go home" situation unfortunately.
Assensing? Point or two with karma maybe?
The starting point of "Conjuring Adept" puts a fairly firm mechanical limit on what you're going to achieve, as long as you and the table you're playing at are fine with that, rock on. If the table runs more challenging games or you personally have high expectations you may want to look at a more standard mage character.
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I specifically didn't want to go with a standard mage for this character .... The backstory could support it, I suppose, but just not what I want to do. Plus I've been wanting to take a crack at a conjuring adept since the supplement to first that added adepts, but I never had a chance back then ..... been a long wait!
I suppose one option would be to change positive qualities, taking Lightning Reflexes and mentor spirit and dropping spirit affinity and too pretty to hit? Not sure if that much extra init would be worth what is given up? (still usually just two actions, just a bit earlier in the priority chain)
Interesting point about about going to magic D -- getting rid of the magic group points might almost be the stronger way to go! Will look a that carefully.
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I agree with Hobbes. Elf B and Magic D will get you 6 Magic and 3 Edge. I wouldn't invest in banishing, as you can just fight spirits with more spirits. Having pistols and unarmed is tough to pull off even for a physical fighting focused character. If you are going to take a combat skill, keeping it to one will free up more skill points for other essentials If you are trying to cover the face roll, your dice pools for con/negotiation are on the lower end of faces you'll see on this board.
There are some face/mage builds around the board, but few are aspected summoners. They are probably physically less tough that this character as written, and have more skill points either from being a non-aspected magician and/or Skills B too. If you go sum to ten, Resources, E, Magic D, and everything else B, you can make a potent Magic 6 Aspected Summoner with enough skills to cover the face roll. If the character wants to be good at not getting hit by bullets, Your attribute spread will look the same as you wrote but with 4 less Agility.You'll also lack physical fighting skills. No physical fighting, you're tough with your tongue, and with a big ol' Air spirit behind you.
However, I like the challenge of your more specific concept. If you are willing to play a more specialized character (meaning other characters will have to serve as primary faces and/or magic specialists), I'd go as follows (and still have some possibility to play with Positive and Negative Qualitiies):
== Priorities ==
Metatype: B(3) - Any metatype
Attributes: A(4) - 24 Attributes
Special: D(1) - Adept or Aspected Magician
Skills: C(2) - 28 Skills/2 Skill Groups
Resources: E(0) - 6,000¥
Bonus Skill Group: Conjuring
== Attributes ==
BOD: 3 CHA: 8
AGI: 6 INT: 5
REA: 5 LOG: 2
STR: 2 WIL: 5
EDG: 3 MAG: 6
== Active Skills ==
Automatics (Submachine Guns) Base: 4 + Karma: 0 = 4 Pool: 10 (12)
Binding (Spirits of Air) Base: 6 + Karma: 0 = 6 Pool: 12 (14)
Disguise Base: 2 + Karma: 0 = 2 Pool: 7
Intimidation Base: 6 + Karma: 0 = 6 Pool: 16
Palming Base: 2 + Karma: 0 = 2 Pool: 8
Perception Base: 3 + Karma: 0 = 3 Pool: 8
Sneaking Base: 2 + Karma: 0 = 2 Pool: 8
Summoning (Spirits of Air) Base: 6 + Karma: 0 = 6 Pool: 12 (14)
== Qualities ==
Aspected Magician
Hawk Eye
Jack of All Trades Master of None
Low-Light Vision
Mentor Spirit (Thunderbird)
SINner (Criminal)
Spirit Affinity (Air)
Too Pretty To Hit
This character still can use an SMG to basically spray and pray to add suppression fire during combat while their spirit does the heavier damage. The skill group points in stealth simulate the criminal skills your learned in prison. Ya spirits can conceal you, but sometimes you just have to get in and get out solo. Jack of All Trades will help round out some skill areas (I'm thinking con, etiquette, leadership, etc.) with one point investments that can go pretty far. While not a typical face, this character can bring a lot of great contacts at character generation to help your team in less typical ways.
I built the Meta B, Attributes B, Magic D, Skills B, and Resources E character too, but it is pretty similar to a lot of things already on the board.
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Lightning Reflexes no. Just too expensive and won't get you a third action generally. Carry some Jazz instead.
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Also:
Have you ever thought of going mystic adept? The character may need some post-character generation rounding and a few levels of the In Debt negative quality (even just 2 may be enough), but the character may have greater magical, face, and combat potency. Mystic Adepts are also often in parties with full mages who can handle the breadth of magical specialist activities, leaving the mystic adept to do other fun things.
I'd go sum to ten:
Meta: C
Attributes: B
Magic: C
Skills: B
Resources: E
Attributes:
Body: 3
Agility: 6
Reaction: 2 (4)
Strength: 1
Charisma: 8
Intuition: 5
Logic: 1
Willpower: 5
Edge: 1
Magic: 6
Positive Qualities:
Hawk Eye
Jack of All Trades
Mentor Spirit (Thunderbird)
Spirit Affinity: Air
Too Pretty to Hit
Negative Qualities:
In Debt II
Sinner (Criminal)
[13 karma worth of other Negative Qualities]
Adept Powers (bought 6 pp w/ 30 karma)
Improved Reflexes 2
[3.5 karma worth of other adept powers depending where else you want to go with the character]
Skills:
Summoning: 6 (+ 2 Air)
Binding: 6 (+2 Air)
[Eveything below is just a suggestion, as the concept can go lots of ways. It is wide, going face, magician, combatant, and sneak to show the options. Specializing in fewer of them would be more efficient]
Intimidation: 3
Automatic: 6 (+2 SMGs)
Negotiation: 6 (+2 Bargaining)
Spellcasting: 5
Acting Group (Con, Performance, Impersonation): 3
Stealth Group (Sneaking, Palming, Disguise): 2
Spells (Charisma-based tradition):
Pick 5, maybe a mix of illusions/detection spells with an interrogation/intimidation theme?
This character would have no karma to start play with. This character starts low cash (16k nuyen) and with In Debt, it may take her a while to get out of it, but hey, she's been in prison and has a criminal SIN, money isn't going to come easy anymore. Buy a point of perception with the first karma you get. Your spirits are going to be better and checking danger than you for a bit. Strength, Logic, and Edge, are all at 1. Raising Edge to 2 would be my first order of business. The character as you described doesn't really need Strength or Logic (if not doing any hand to hand fighting). Adept powers/skills/spells can be focused to be more combat oriented, to help be the party face, to be extra sneaky, to boost other magic abilities, or try to mix them all. Throwing it out there.
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Sticking to aspected magician, how about sum to 10 - b attributes, b magic, c skills, c metatype, e resources
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oor... I am feeling the mystic adept build. Instead of spellcasting, get skills in ritual spellcasting. Let the run of the mill shadowmage take care of the regular spell slinging, ritual spellcasting can make your character more unique and in higher demand. Don't want to waste bound spirit tasks when a watcher or homunculus would do? Initiate into Invocation to get a helpful ally spirit? With ritual spellcasting, she can still seem like aspected summoner, but one that can do more with the extra adept powers and more magic abilities. Another bonus to initiating into invocation is that your character will eventually be able to summon great form spirits, great for a summoner but also will allow the opening to astral realms and quests that neither an aspected magician or mystic adept can usually do.
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Thanks for all the replies--- lots of food for thought!
I'll probably be back with take 2 at some point.
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I have to admit that my favorite way to do an Aspected Magician of any sort is to take Mage/Mystic Adept and add Incompetent in one of the realms I don't want and Spirit Pariah if I don't want to summon.
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I have to admit that my favorite way to do an Aspected Magician of any sort is to take Mage/Mystic Adept and add Incompetent in one of the realms I don't want and Spirit Pariah if I don't want to summon.
I have thought about that, but I admit that it bugs me. I just feel that one should be able to make useful aspected mages. I skipped from second to fifth, so I don't know if aspected mages became too powerful and so got nerfed, or just what, but the rules sure seems rough on them in 5th. (I also missed the the totem-aspected type from 1st/2nd, but I can understand how they would not work so well under the 5th ed rules)
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I have thought about that, but I admit that it bugs me. I just feel that one should be able to make useful aspected mages. I skipped from second to fifth, so I don't know if aspected mages became too powerful and so got nerfed, or just what, but the rules sure seems rough on them in 5th. (I also missed the the totem-aspected type from 1st/2nd, but I can understand how they would not work so well under the 5th ed rules)
The way that Aspected Magicians work in 5e is very different from 4e. I believe that they weren't overpowered in 4e. If anything, they were slightly underpowered, but not as nerfed as 5e. However, 4e had build points as the default way to make characters and priority was an "also option" that never included Aspected Magicians. If you wanted an Aspected Magician, you needed to use BP-gen or Karma-gen.
I do think that Aspected Magicians work better in Karmagen or Life Paths as compared to priority. Priority screws them six ways to Sunday. They're not that bad in Karmagen or Life Paths.
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I like the idea of houseruling some benefits for aspected mages.
The simplest is just to give a free skill specialization in on of the skills in their aspected group. I don't think this is game breaking, as this is just basically a free skill specialization (7 karma equivalent), and I think everyone agrees that aspected magicians are more than 7 karma worse off than other Awakened characters. This would like like:
For aspected sorcerers: an additional +2 to a specific spell type to cast, +2 to counterspelling a certain spell type, or a +2 to a kind of ritual spellcasting.
For aspected conjurers: + 2 to summon a certain type of spirit, +2 to bind a certain type of spirit, or +2 to banish a certain type of spirit
For aspected enchanters: +2 to a Artificing a certain kind of focus, +2 to Disenchanting a certain type of focus, or +2 to certain alchemical spell type.
Another way to rule would to give these +2 bonuses across the board in the aspected group, (ex. Conjurers: +2 summon Air spirit, +2 Bind Air spirit, +2 Banish Air Spirit), but give a -1 modifier to all other spell/spirit types that the aspected magician doesn't focus on (ex. the same conjurer would have a -1 dice pool to summoning/binding/banishing all other kinds of spirits that aren't air spirits). I don't like the idea of aspected mages being less than mages, but more of highly specialized mages that give up other mage powers due to their specialization. I think this kind of rule would go along with that, making really potent in specific areas aspected magicians at the cost of potency in the areas they don't focus on. I think it makes aspected magicians a more viable playstyle.
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Just for kicks I gave a quick try at making this work with the lifestyle modules, and holy cow did that fail hard! LM system seems to be pretty tough on meta-humans that want to max out their strong attributes, and magicians in general (first go dump 100 karma into buying up your magic, if you want it maxed, then buy your spells if you use them, etc). But maybe my problem was mostly not going through magical training?
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Nah, you'd still have to buy up Magic.
Same as with other Abilities, maxing it out in Lifepath is really to expensive.
The only thing that reliably works with Lifepath is maxing out Skill(group)s.
6 in the Firearms Group? Easy peasy.
I sorta would like to try a group with all-lifepath chars once, since you tend to build you Runners quite different with it.
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I sorta would like to try a group with all-lifepath chars once, since you tend to build you Runners quite different with it.
After I run my current game to completion (which who knows when that will be), I plan to have my next game be all Life Modules. By that time, I expect them to be pretty robust and I LIKE THEM A LOT.
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Just for kicks I gave a quick try at making this work with the lifestyle modules, and holy cow did that fail hard! LM system seems to be pretty tough on meta-humans that want to max out their strong attributes, and magicians in general (first go dump 100 karma into buying up your magic, if you want it maxed, then buy your spells if you use them, etc). But maybe my problem was mostly not going through magical training?
The magical training is the biggie. It lets you start on two magical skill groups, with the only downside is that you have to take the wage mage life module - hardly a chore, since that is one of the two real life modules that gives a significant boost to magical skills (the other one is street magic, especially street mage or street shaman). Later modules will probably have more awakened options, but right now an academic-type path is the only strong option for mages (and aspected mages lack many good options at all).
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(and aspected mages lack many good options at all).
Seems to be a bit of a theme in fifth :-(
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(and aspected mages lack many good options at all).
Seems to be a bit of a theme in fifth :-(
All us Aspected Magician lovers have to go cry in a corner until someone at Catalyst decides they want Aspected Magicians to be viable. :( Or we have our comprehensive house rules!
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Just for kicks I gave a quick try at making this work with the lifestyle modules, and holy cow did that fail hard! LM system seems to be pretty tough on meta-humans that want to max out their strong attributes, and magicians in general (first go dump 100 karma into buying up your magic, if you want it maxed, then buy your spells if you use them, etc). But maybe my problem was mostly not going through magical training?
The magical training is the biggie. It lets you start on two magical skill groups, with the only downside is that you have to take the wage mage life module - hardly a chore, since that is one of the two real life modules that gives a significant boost to magical skills (the other one is street magic, especially street mage or street shaman). Later modules will probably have more awakened options, but right now an academic-type path is the only strong option for mages (and aspected mages lack many good options at all).
Technomancer life modules are rather lacking as well. I tried to make a life module version of the Technomancer reporter, but no matter which modules I took I couldn't build a functioning Technomancer who was at least as good as that priority Techno-Reporter archetype.
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(and aspected mages lack many good options at all).
Seems to be a bit of a theme in fifth :-(
All us Aspected Magician lovers have to go cry in a corner until someone at Catalyst decides they want Aspected Magicians to be viable. :( Or we have our comprehensive house rules!
I also wish there were aspected mysads.
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I also wish there were aspected mysads.
Yah, I've been tempted to house rule mysads as being adept + aspected mage.
And while on that topic, I think I'm persuaded for the character I was working on to go the mysad route. Magic priority three gives 3 magic rating either way, with aspected giving one magic skill group starting at 2*, while mysad gives 5 spells and access to pretty much everything, and I can choose where to focus. i.e. can still be a summoner with some adept powers (although, what to do with the 5 spells is an interesting question).
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I also wish there were aspected mysads.
Yah, I've been tempted to house rule mysads as being adept + aspected mage.
With nerfing them into oblivion in the SR4A errata, and some still saying they were overpowered after that, I'm surprised they didn't remove aspected mages and do just that (making the mystic adept an aspected mage + adept). It wouldn't have made everyone happy, but you're never going to. Maybe we'll see that in SR6? ??? After all, Rigger 5 is right around the corner! ;D
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OK, current, almost final, build along these lines below. Would like any final advice/feedback, especially around adept power and ritual magic (or alternatively alchemy. End up with five spells and almost no skill to use them). First some general notes:
- Built with sum-to-ten
- Mystic Adept, no spellcasting but no quality preventing it.
- Have 5 free spells so took one point of Ritual Magic, and need to figure out what rituals to buy (for later, when she has some skill, or for teaming with others). Could equally go with alchemy, but I'm not sure what use you can make out of seven dice in alchemy?
- Skill groups are one point in each of Influence and Athletics, to give non-default in a number of skills (Influence mostly for defensive or teamwork tests, Athletics for getting around).
- I've gone with automatics rather than pistols, although I'm torn on that (pistols: concealment, tasers / automatics: flexibility--including higher top end damage, covering fire) I have switched back and forth several times.
- moved from unarmed to clubs. In character background: In prison she always managed to scrounge up items to make a sap or blackjack of some sort (really should have one point in armory to support that, but not sure where I'd take that from), and shock batons have a reasonable chance of hurting even force seven spirits (hitting those can be a different issue).
- no binding at all right now, nor banishing. also no reagents or lodge to do any binding in :p (character is very tight on nuyen)
- dropped Spirit Affinity for one more PP and (indirectly) specialty in summoning Air Spirits
- completely crappy commlink for now -- then again she can comfortably run 'wireless off' most of the time. High priority to replace. (The second commlink is to leave with her sister, in case the parole system does a check on her--fluff on how she deals with a criminal SIN)
== Info ==
Street Name: Forty
Elf
Nuyen: 5
== Priorities ==
Metatype: C(2) - Elf,
Attributes: A(4) - 24 Attributes
Special: C(2) - Mystic Adept
Skills: C(2) - 28 Skills/2 Skill Groups
Resources: E(0) - 6,000¥
== Attributes ==
BOD: 3
AGI: 6
REA: 5 (7)
STR: 3
CHA: 8
INT: 5
LOG: 2
WIL: 4
EDG: 1
MAG: 6
== Derived Attributes ==
Essence: 6
Initiative: 10 (12) + 3d6
Physical Damage Track: 10
Stun Damage Track: 10
== Limits ==
Physical: 6
Mental: 5
Social: 9
Astral: 9
== Active Skills ==
Automatics : 6 Pool: 12
Clubs : 6 Pool: 12
Etiquette : 1 Pool: 9
Gymnastics : 1 Pool: 7
Intimidation : 6 Pool: 16
Leadership : 1 Pool: 9
Negotiation : 1 Pool: 9
Perception : 2 Pool: 8
Performance : 1 Pool: 9
Ritual Spellcasting : 1 Pool: 7
Running : 1 Pool: 4
Sneaking : 1 Pool: 7
Summoning : 6 [Spirits of Air] Pool: 12 (14)
Swimming : 1 Pool: 4
== Knowledge Skills ==
Birds of the Pacific NW : 3 Pool: 5
Japanese : 2 Pool: 7
Orcish percussion : 2 Pool: 7
Seattle criminal underworld : 5 Pool: 10
Shinto Ritual : 2 Pool: 4
== Contacts ==
3-Dot; Seattle; ID Manufacturer (2, 1)
Heather (est. NPC); Pullayup; Gang Leader (4, 4)
Iridescent Shadow; Renton; Dwarf BTL&drug dealer/connaisseur (3, 4)
June Mayfield; Redmond; Grassroots Politician (3, 3)
== Qualities ==
Dependent (Inconvenience)
Gremlins (Rating 1)
Low-Light Vision
Mentor Spirit (Thunderbird)
Mystic Adept
Prejudiced (Common, Biased) (Humans)
SINner (Criminal) (Cop killer)
Too Pretty To Hit
== Spells ==
(Tradition: Shinto, Resist Drain with WIL + CHA (12))
Homunculus DV: Special
Ward DV: Special
Watcher DV: Special
== Powers ==
Combat Sense Rating: 1
Enhanced Perception Rating: 1
Freefall Rating: 1
Hang Time Rating: 1
Improved Reflexes 2
Kinesics Rating: 1
Light Body Rating: 2
Nimble Fingers
== Lifestyles ==
Craptastic apt. w/ chiphead sister 1 months
== Armor ==
Armor Vest 9
== Weapons ==
Sap
Pool: 12 Accuracy: 5 DV: 5P AP: - RC: 2
Steyr TMP
+Laser Sight
Pool: 12 Accuracy: 5 DV: 7P AP: - RC: 2
Stun Baton
Pool: 12 Accuracy: 4 DV: 9S(e) AP: -5 RC: 2
Unarmed Attack
Pool: 5 Accuracy: 6 DV: 3S AP: - RC: 2
== Commlink ==
Sony Angel (ATT: 0, SLZ: 0, DP: 1, FWL: 1)
Sony Angel (ATT: 0, SLZ: 0, DP: 1, FWL: 1)
== Gear ==
Ammo: Regular Ammo (Machine Pistols) x30
Ammo: Stick-n-Shock (Machine Pistols) x10
Certified Credstick, Silver
Earbuds Rating 1
Fake SIN (Gabriela Martinez) Rating 3
Spare Clip (Steyr TMP)
Subvocal Mic
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Just some minor recommendations:
- Move a point from Agility or Reaction to Willpower. You can always use more drain resistance.
- Drop Influence Group. Your pools are too low to matter/require the rest of your 'run team to call you the boss. Switch to Acting - Con, Performance and Impersonation are handier at your low dice pool ratings.
- Drop Automatics by a point to pick up a specialty in Machine Pistols
- Drop Clubs by a point to pick up a specialty in Batons. Swap Sap for Extendable Baton.
- Consider taking Door Wards from Street Grimoire as another Ritual
- Your Adept powers are not that optimized, but that's okay. I actually like the whole climbing, falling thing she's got going on, but it should pair with higher Gymnastics
Honestly, and this is weird, I might consider dropping to Attributes B to get Skills B. I think you'd really benefit from the 5 group points as opposed to two (get the Athletics group up to 3 or 4). It would also allow you to flesh up Ritual Spellcasting to get ROPE HOMONCULI AROUND YOUR ARMS AT ALL TIMES.
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- Drop Automatics by a point to pick up a specialty in Machine Pistols
- Drop Clubs by a point to pick up a specialty in Batons. Swap Sap for Extendable Baton.
But a spec costs 7 karma while raising skill 5->6 costs 12! And I believe that raising a skill needs more time too. I may be wrong about it though.
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Looking good!
A few notes though:
Attributes: As Falar said, getting Willpower to 5 would be nice. It's an extra box on your stun track and will help with drain and healing. Some folks don't like having stats at 1, but if you are willing, your moving a point from Logic to Willpower could be useful. It doesn't mean the character is stupid, perhaps just more intuitive and people smart than book smart.This will allow you to keep your other stats up too, and you don't have any logic linked skills anyway.
Adept powers: Enhanced perception is opportunistically expensive if you have a lower perception skill (as you do) and without astral perception/assensing. I like having a former inmate having Nimble Fingers, but the character doesn't have any skills in palming, musical performance, or lockpicking to really take advantage of the benefit. Perhaps it can wait until after you get more power points or take a Way. I like the idea of the climbing focus, but the skills as written are kind of low to justify all of the adept power points towards it, especially with only one rank in each power. Falling from the side of a building is still going to hurt this character, with or without the adept powers. I do like the idea of rope homunculi (it's genius) which may actually make the power spread work... Though if you want to go more face, taking 2 or 3 ranks of Authoritative Tone and Commanding Voice, even with a low leadership skill, could really help this character take on more "face" duties confidently. For 6 power points, I would go:
Improved Reflexes 2, Combat Sense 1, Commanding Voice 1, Authoritative Tone 3, Agility Boost 1, and Facial Sculpt 1.
Skills: The only other note I really have is the tight squeeze of competencies you are trying to get out of the character while maintaining maxed skills in two weapon competencies. Even a lot of street samurai run with one kind of weapon skill, as you can only use one weapon at once in combat. If it were me, and I know this doesn't gel as well with your concept, but I would drop melee weapons all together. Clubs/unarmed/whatever, your strength isn't high enough to really be a melee combat monster, and those skill points could be used elsewhere. Stun batons can hurt some spririts, but the character is a conjurer and can use spirits to fight spirits with more effect. The character is so intimidating she can threaten someone with a tennis racket without actually knowing how to beat someone up with it. Holding a blunt weapon may be enough for this character without having to me a master in using it. In an actual fight, a gun and a spirit go a long way. With those 6 points you can actually max Negotiations and more fully occupy a face role, and/or you can learn a little binding to keep spirits on call (and with high charisma you can keep up to 8!), or you can be more B&E/climby or cast more powerful rituals. The character is an ambitious concept wanting to do a lot: She is good in a fight with one weapon skill, she is not better enough in said fight with two weapons skills, but misses out on other key areas she wants to be good in if she has two skills. The other minor tweak I would have would be to put all of your skill group points in stealth. Palming/Disguise/Sneaking take advantage of the character's high agility/intuition and may come into play more. The difference in the influence group dice pools between having a skill group point there or not is negligible (7 or 9 in negotiation, most fixers/johnsons are going to be better at it than you. Ettiquette/Impersonation 7 vs. 9 won't make much a of a difference either). If you are only going to have one point in gymnastics, just buy it with karma. Swimming or running I wouldn't worry too much about (just don't do a lot sprinting/swimming if you don't have to).
Ok. More notes than I thought. Basically: move a point of logic to willpower. I would suggest optimizing adept powers to be more face-centric. Move skill points in clubs elsewhere (All Negotiation would be my choice, but some binding or ritual magic would work for me too). Put skill group points into stealth.
I really really like this concept! Conjurer who can summon some mean Air spirits, hold her own in a fight, and make her enemies cower. I have lots of respect for players/characters who don't play spellcasters with the same spells. I think the character is really interesting and can be a great add to a team. She has a lot of growth potential (I can see taking The Spiritual Way for boosted conjuring dice and discounted adept powers, and initiating into Invocation for Great Form Air Spirits and maybe even an Ally Spirit!)
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- Drop Automatics by a point to pick up a specialty in Machine Pistols
- Drop Clubs by a point to pick up a specialty in Batons. Swap Sap for Extendable Baton.
But a spec costs 7 karma while raising skill 5->6 costs 12! And I believe that raising a skill needs more time too. I may be wrong about it though.
During character creation, a spec costs one skill point. So you spend one skill point to get effectively two skill points. As long as you buy your things carefully, it'll be a lot better.
That said, you're probably also not going to be increasing these skills much beyond this point. Conjuring will get you MUCH BETTER STUFF. These will be more of your backup skills or skills you use after you've got your spirits going.
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More great feedback, thanks!
Logic is two only from spending ten karma. Clearly a bad investment, but barring odd character concepts I'm just not comfortable with stats of 1 on my characters. The idea that your default on any logic skill is 0 is just more than I'm willing to handle, role-playing wise. Not being too good at thinking things through is one thing, being essentially incapable of it is another. Nothing against people who are happy with '1', but I'll accept the power hit.
The melee skill and strength of 3 was really all to reflect the character concept in my head. My inspirations were more along the line of Sarah Carter from from Terminator 2, rather than the classic elven maiden. Visibly tough, not so pretty but yet riveting in her own way. Plus to reflect surviving decades in high security prison where she couldn't openly use magic (and didn't even really understand that she had magic for much of that time).
That being said ... Yah, 12 points in combat skills when her prime thing is summoning is probably too much. Grumble. For power reasons I'd drop the melee, for fluff reasons I'd halve the pistol or automatics skill, and I guess I just have to make a choice.
Adept powers are designed to grow into. MySads only get more PP from initiation (or sort of, from foci), but skills can be brought in play, so I was kind of targetting what powers I'd like with another 30 karma in skills, and a tatoo for astral perception. But if I'm going to be buying up so many low skills I really should find room for Jack of All Trades.
So I guess at least one more pass at the character.
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Keep the automatics skill at 6, remove all points from blunts, then use one of these to get the automatics specialization on top. After that, buy one level of blunts with Karma to reflect that part of your backgroundstory.
With your high agility, the single skillpoint makes the difference between unusable and handy backup (with a shock-based weapon) and getting that with a BP instead of Karma would be a waste.
Also stay with automatics instead of pistols.
You have your magic for the heavy hitting, use extended mags from Hard Targets with suppressive fire to keep the enemies from easily shooting you (maybe throw in a smoke for the fun) while your spirits take care of them.
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Logic is two only from spending ten karma. Clearly a bad investment, but barring odd character concepts I'm just not comfortable with stats of 1 on my characters. The idea that your default on any logic skill is 0 is just more than I'm willing to handle, role-playing wise. Not being too good at thinking things through is one thing, being essentially incapable of it is another. Nothing against people who are happy with '1', but I'll accept the power hit.
An argument for consideration: rolling 1 die means that 1/6th of the time, you're getting a critical glitch. 0 dice just means you fail, 1 die introduces the chance of failing horribly.
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Fair enough not wanting stats at 1, though now that you say that, you also don't need strength for much either, so you can drop strength to 2, move an attribute point to logic for 2, and spend that 10 karma on boosting Edge to 2. That may keep the character living longer from some bad dice rolls than auto-failing or critical glitching logic skill tests. Or, to optimize: Strength: 2, Logic: 1, Willpower: 5, Edge: 2 (w/10 karma).
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Yeah, mechanically there isn't much difference between defaulting from a stat of 1 or a stat of 2. If you're not spending edge you're either going to fail, or fail so badly you need to spend edge.
Perfectly fine to not want a stat of 1, but defaulting from a stat of 2 is going to end badly.
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I think that defaulting with attribute 3 or 4 is also almost useless and often dangerous. So, you should never do it. And because this is a team game, you should have no need to do it.
I often see here comments that the str 1 will kill you because you cannot e.g. climb safely (without skill neither). So, you have to had 2-3 in your str. I think that it is still very dangerous to climb and using only 2 dices. And if you are a mage you can use levitate (the build in this thread cannot but I'm speaking in general level)?
That's why I think that 1 in str and log are doable, if you want to get more points to e.g. willpower, int or rea. The difference between str 1 and 2 is almost nothing, both are really bad values in general.
What are those logic skills that you have to throw often? Even with low attributes? Chemistry (Decker or hermetic mages are better to do it), first aid (use medkit), medicine (if you have 3 in body and quick healer, you don't need medicine), computer (decker can throw it), demolitions (Decker and hermetic mages...)
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Sorry I didn't put it clearly enough earlier -- the stat of one thing is a personal role playing thing, not a practical thing. No I never want to default off a low stat, but unless it is part of the character concept in my head, I'm not interested in role playing a character so feeble that they are incapable of even trying to sprint, so logically impaired that presented with a flat tire, a spare, and tools would never manage to replace it, etc.
I'm not arguing the math-- it is personal play style thing. So:
- to anyone looking at the discussion for guides on how to make a similar character: str and logic both 1, will at 5, body at four, use karma to take edge to 2.
- For my character I'm good with the stats as listed previously.
I tried monkeying with skills and PP last night, but was way too tired to do anything coherent. Definitely thinking that alchemy could get useful at a lower skill level than ritual .... Barring having someone to work with in rituals, which changes things. (Still not going to take spellcasting, and only have at most a few skill points for this, so thinking it makes sense to focus, although one in each would not be impossible, and could justify spreading the five spells usefully)
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If you're going to take Alchemy, I recommend you take some of the unresisted defensive spells for it. Combat Sense, Increase Reflexes, Increase Strength are all solid options. Prepare them at something like Force 4 and you'd get 7 dice versus 4 dice. You'd usually end up with something with potency 1 or 2, so it would last an hour or two. At such a low level, Combat Sense and Increase Strength are probably your better bet, but you'll still end up whiffing a good portion of the time.
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Deflection, Combat Sense, Increase Willpower (for this character to resist summoning drain), Increase Intuition (at force 5 to hand out to the team), Analyze Device possibly. Plenty of options for adding one or two dice here or there, but no Astral Perception for clean up so you'll want to be careful with where you use Preparations.
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To wrap up this thread, and hopefully never have to seen the totally screwed up thread title again, here is the build I went with in the end.
- Deliberately not optimized in some areas.
- Meant to be able to team-work some social tests,
- have enough stealth to hopefully get by with spirit help,
- enough alchemy to buy a hit on a force 4 preparation,
- enough speed to be able to wrangle spirits, keep up good defenses, and occasionally take a shot.
- Unarmed should be enough to land touch attacks on goons most of the time, but she surely doesn't want to go toe-to-toe with a real brawler.
- Absolutely needs a bucket of karma thrown into skills physical skills to make the jumping/climbing more useful and reliable, but need to invest in PP at creation--that theme is to be fleshed out as karma comes in (granted also need karma for edge, and social skills, and increasing alchemy, and ..... )
== Priorities ==
Metatype: C(2) - Elf
Attributes: A(4) - 24 Attributes
Special: C(2) - MysAd
Skills: C(2) - 28 Skills/2 Skill Groups
Resources: E(0) - 6,000¥
== Attributes ==
BOD: 3
AGI: 6
REA: 5 (7)
STR: 3
CHA: 8
INT: 5
LOG: 2
WIL: 4
EDG: 1
MAG: 6
== Derived Attributes ==
Essence: 6
Initiative: 10 (12) + 3d6
== Limits ==
Physical: 6
Mental: 5
Social: 9
Astral: 9
== Active Skills ==
Alchemy : 2 Pool: 8
Automatics : 6 Pool: 12
Etiquette : 1 Pool: 9
Gymnastics : 1 Pool: 7
Intimidation : 6 Pool: 16
Leadership : 1 Pool: 9
Negotiation : 1 Pool: 9
Palming : 1 Pool: 8
Perception : 3 Pool: 8
Running : 1 Pool: 4
Sneaking : 1 Pool: 7
Summoning : 6 [Spirits of Air] Pool: 12 (14)
Swimming : 1 Pool: 4
Throwing Weapons : 0 Pool: 5
Tracking : 0 Pool: 4
Unarmed Combat : 4 Pool: 10
== Knowledge Skills ==
Birds of the Pacific North-West : 3 Pool: 5
Japanese : 3 Pool: 8
Seattle criminal underworld : 5 Pool: 10
Shinto Ritual : 3 Pool: 5
== Contacts ==
Fiona Craig; Seattle; Archeologist (2, 1)
Heather; Pullayup; Gang Leader (4, 4)
June Mayfield; Tacoma; Grassroots Politician (3, 3)
Radiant Shadow; Renton; BTL&drug dealer/connaisseur (3, 4)
== Qualities ==
Dependent (Inconvenience)
Incompetent (Sorcery)
Jack of All Trades Master of None
Low-Light Vision
Mentor Spirit (Thunderbird)
Mystic Adept
Prejudiced (Common, Biased) (Humans)
SINner (Criminal) (Cop killer)
Too Pretty To Hit
== Spells ==
(Tradition: Shinto, Resist Drain with WIL + CHA (12))
Gecko Crawl (Alchemical) DV: F-3
Increase [Attribute] (Alchemical) (LOG) DV: F-3
Increase [Attribute] (Alchemical) (WIL) DV: F-3
Magic Fingers (Alchemical) DV: F-2
Mindlink (Alchemical) DV: F-1
== Powers ==
Combat Sense Rating: 1
Freefall Rating: 2
Hang Time Rating: 2
Improved Reflexes 2
Improved Sense (Smell)
Light Body Rating: 2
Nimble Fingers
== Lifestyles ==
Craptastic apt. w/ chiphead sister 1 months
== Armor ==
Armor Vest 9
== Weapons ==
Shock Gloves
Pool: 10 Accuracy: 6 DV: 8S(e) AP: -5 RC: 2
Steyr TMP
+Laser Sight
Pool: 12 Accuracy: 5 DV: 7P AP: - RC: 2
Unarmed Attack
Pool: 10 Accuracy: 6 DV: 3S AP: - RC: 2
== Commlink ==
Sony Angel (ATT: 0, SLZ: 0, DP: 1, FWL: 1)
Sony Angel (ATT: 0, SLZ: 0, DP: 1, FWL: 1)
== Gear ==
Ammo: Regular Ammo (Machine Pistols) x30
Ammo: Stick-n-Shock (Machine Pistols) x30
Certified Credstick, Silver
Earbuds Rating 1
Fake SIN (Gabriela Martinez) Rating 3
Spare Clip (Steyr TMP)
Subvocal Mic
Trodes
== Description ==
Short and stocky by elven standards, hair is buzz-cut, nose has been broken a couple of times, knuckles are scarred, but she has the sort of presence that holds the eye. Usually wearing t-shirt and cargo pants, she's quick to scowl but willing to laugh.
For visual inspiration, think Linda Hamilton in Terminator 2.
== Concept ==
Summoning adept with an attitude, and enough combat abilty to get herself into trouble. If she survives maybe she'll round out her abilities and mellow her attitude. Even Thunderbird can't teach her to fly, but she jumps, perches, and falls well.
== Notes ==
Mystic adept, but incompetent in Sorcery. Very weak alchemy. Magic effects on her have an avian theme. Her charisma is more the charisma of a predator than 'sexy,' although some people may confuse the two.