Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Beta on <10-27-15/1704:20>
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I’m much more interested in characters that find ways to go around problems than going through problems – but any character has to be ready to help go through things at times i.e. help out in combat. I have nothing against characters that are primarily combatants, they just aren’t my cup of tea.
This is where the tyranny of initiative keeps biting me. It is dangerous to be in combat if you are too slow. Anyone expecting to fight regularly, in character examples from veteran players around here, seem to have at least two levels of enhanced initiative, sometimes with some secondary boost as well. But getting that much initiative tends to cost so much nuyen/karma/PP/whatever that it starts crowding out the cool stuff that was the reason I was interested in the character in the first place.
Say I’m imagining an adept that can cling to walls, jump and fall huge distances, glide over surfaces, hear ultrasonic motion sensors, see magical defenses, and when the going gets tough power his fists up with lightning—and I end up taking heightened initiative 2, combat sense, and only a fraction of the cool stuff that made me interested in the character in the first place. Or give up a broader range of skill competencies to have more resources to pay for more wired reflexes, or give up other cool qualities to have room for enough focused concentration to support a high level of heightened reactions. Or turn the mage into a mystic adept and dump all the starting karma into PP to get those boosted reflexes. Or, well, you get the idea.
I’m wondering, in your games, I’m assuming that samurai, gun-bunnies, and combat mages find ways to regularly score three actions per turn, but what about faces, general purpose mages, intrusions experts, and the like?
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I find that 2d6 initiative dice, along with a base initative of at least 9 (ensuring that 2 passes always happens) is enough for a secondary combatant like the face or decker (assuming it isn't a combat decker).
For a Face character or other mundane, I will often just give them the Booster, for it's flat 1d6 for only 10k nuyen, since I usually don't have to have them min-maxed to fit as much 'ware into their body as possible.
The use of combat drugs can also be important. If combat is likely, a dose of Cram can go a long way to making you more capable. It lasts for a while too, so you don't need to use it that much.
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Combat characters 3 actions, however you get there. Any other 'runner be able to get to 2 actions when you need to, 11 is a fairly low bar to get over with occasional Jazz or Cram.
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Save a point of Edge to Blitz.
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Save a point of Edge to Blitz.
Yah, if you don't fight often, and fights don't last that long for your group, I've thought this could be a viable option for higher edge characters?
How about the Adrenaline Surge quality from Run Faster? (for 12 karma you go first in the first combat turn of each combat). Doesn't get you the extra actions, but does let you be first (or at least one of hte first, if others have the same quality or use edge to to to the top of the init table)
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Going first is very useful even if you're not a combatant at all. At least you can dive behind cover before you get hurt.
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Adrenaline surge is excellent if you have a big alpha strike ability. Most Mages for example, or heavy weapons type characters. Sniper rifles, monowhips, whatever. If you're a secondary combatant, Decker, Technomancer, Rigger, Face, going first isn't that big a deal.
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You can declare Full Defense if you get caught out in the open. Adrenaline Surge's great strength is alpha striking, so those karma are probably better spent elsewhere. It's certainly possible to make a great alpha striker with a low initiative, but generally speed and lethality mix pretty well in the system.
I'd echo what others have said: get to two IPs. That way you can still act if you declare FD and contribute in a meaningful way (if not a dominant way) in combat.
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With the refresh of edge now, unless your gm is putting you in 2-3 combats each day, just use them to get your initative.
You can also focus on temp boosts to initative such as drugs, having an alchemist give you improve reflex potion every day, or adrenaline boost (adept power)
Personally, if you are making a pure inflitration adept, you could make your secondary combat option be a sniper. This reduces what you need to put into defenses (to a point)
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Even as a sniper adept (or the newly viable archer adept) multiple passes is needed. And all adept need combat sense at rating 1 and increase reflexes rating 1 at minimum, most say rating 2 is preferred, but you might could make a valid argument for why you don't need it. After that, fill the rest with what you want to do.
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I think that reaction 5 intuition 5 give you 10 1d6 is more than enough, diminishing returns make it expensive to reliably get 3 passes, you just have to make sure that you have two passes as the difference between 1 and 3 is huge but 2 vs 3 is not that bad.
I wouldn't invest in initiative dice unless i reliably go 3 tiems (4 times for mystic adepts and post hard targets also adepts).
the fastest character I can think about:
Adept + adept spell (improve intuition) + focused concentration 5 (or just mystic adept if you prefer)
reaction 6 + 3 (improve reflexes) + intuition(5) + 4 (improve intuition) = 18+ 4d6 on average you get 18+14 =32 so you get the 4th pass a little over 50% of the time, but I think that you cannot really go faster than that.
so I'd feel very comfortable with my 2 actions per round in combat, note that a decker/rigger can get cheap initiative dice by going into VR without expensive augmentations.
nobody seems to go twice as much as a 2 action guy.
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I think that reaction 5 intuition 5 give you 10 1d6 is more than enough, diminishing returns make it expensive to reliably get 3 passes, you just have to make sure that you have two passes as the difference between 1 and 3 is huge but 2 vs 3 is not that bad.
I wouldn't invest in initiative dice unless i reliably go 3 tiems (4 times for mystic adepts and post hard targets also adepts).
the fastest character I can think about:
Adept + adept spell (improve intuition) + focused concentration 5 (or just mystic adept if you prefer)
reaction 6 + 3 (improve reflexes) + intuition(5) + 4 (improve intuition) = 18+ 4d6 on average you get 18+14 =32 so you get the 4th pass a little over 50% of the time, but I think that you cannot really go faster than that.
so I'd feel very comfortable with my 2 actions per round in combat, note that a decker/rigger can get cheap initiative dice by going into VR without expensive augmentations.
nobody seems to go twice as much as a 2 action guy.
Don't forget adrenaline boost. That can net you even more iniative as long as you can soak the drain.
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To be perfectly honest. Many of my mages in games don't use ANY initiative enhancements at all, and I do just fine. But that could be my play style.
Generally when combat comes up, I spend the first IP (and usually only) getting into cover so as to not be a target. IF the combat actually lasts into an other initiative round (usually doesn't due to the combat/initiative monkeys the other players play) I start casting area effect debuffs (Ice sheet is a personal favorite due to affecting targets I may not be able to see), or buffs on the more combat characters (like Armor on the Troll), or simply concentrating on spell mitigation.
Everything and anything is possible, you don't NEED to have a 2, 3 or even 4 passes to play. (Buy I admit freely it helps).
However, this will depend also on your GM and his play style as well.... if your GM is the type that even street teash gangers are consistently getting 3 IP.... then you probably want at least 2 consistent IPs yourself at minimum.
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My game, you want 2, but this is because any past mook levels has 2 passes. But, we're Neon Pink with Liberty Spikes!
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Don't forget adrenaline boost. That can net you even more iniative as long as you can soak the drain.
5 Reaction; 5 Intuition, Level 6 Adrenaline Boost, 1 dose Jazz = 23 + 3d6. 4 actions about 75% of the time all for the low cost of 75 Nuyen, 1.5 PP and a mere 6 DV. And on trip sixes you get 5 actions!
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Don't forget adrenaline boost. That can net you even more iniative as long as you can soak the drain.
5 Reaction; 5 Intuition, Level 6 Adrenaline Boost, 1 dose Jazz = 23 + 3d6. 4 actions about 75% of the time all for the low cost of 75 Nuyen, 1.5 PP and a mere 6 DV. And on trip sixes you get 5 actions!
And have to resist 6 Drain every Combat round in which you activate this, which is a bit to much, in my opinion.
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The absolute best would of course involve the Increase Reflexes spell, cast with edge and then held with a sustaining focus. If you optimize for this specifically, you're a pixie with 7 edge, 20 dice for the spellcasting roll at char gen (6 ranks, 6 magic, 2 spec, 2 mentor, 4 spellcasting focus)
A metatype (pixie), B magic (aspected magician), C attributes, D resources, E skills. Mentor Spirit. 20 karma on a F4 spellcasting focus, F3 sustaining focus, F2 sustaining focus, F1 sustaining focus. Increase Reaction gets you to 12, Increase Intuition gets that to 11, Increase Reflexes gets ~11 hits for +11 and capped dice. Congratulations on 34+5d6 initiative, average 6 passes and probably being useless during all of them. You could swap around attributes and skills allocation, since you need reaction and intuition to have no points invested, and you're left with few places to put points.
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For a (Myst) Adept, I'd probably go for Enhanced Reflexes 1 together with either Cram or Jazz.
Going with the 5 Reaction, 5 Intuiton, 1.5 PP will get you to 12 + 3D6 with Cram or 12 + 4D6 with Jazz.
Not as fast as Hobbes example, but you don*t suffer the drain (which could get a heavy issue if you have to do this multiple times on a run), have a permanent boost to reaction (albeit a little one) and one dose of cram will last you through most runs without a problem, while still getting you the 3 IP with a pretty high chance and being a bit easier to throw against on the Addiction table.
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Remember, kids, if you're doing drugs, always choose pharmaceutical grade. Half the crash and lower the Addiction Rating by one, double the price.
See Chrome Flesh for more details. Also, consider Narco to make your poppers really POP.
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I personally won't go above 2 ranks in adrenaline boost, 2 drain is manageable for a +4 when you really need it.
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Remember, kids, if you're doing drugs, always choose pharmaceutical grade. Half the crash and lower the Addiction Rating by one, double the price.
See Chrome Flesh for more details. Also, consider Narco to make your poppers really POP.
The pro-drug public service announcement. "Remembers kids if you choose to smoke weed, only use the dankest nugs."
LOL
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Two items wrist auto injector 500 pharmaceutical jazz 150 a hit 2d6 init and +2 reaction that's I all
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Two items wrist auto injector 500 pharmaceutical jazz 150 a hit 2d6 init and +2 reaction that's I all
Okay, so, this has bothered me for a while - how does an auto-injector work with an inhaled drug? Does it just get handwaved away as another formulation of the drug that's injected?
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Two items wrist auto injector 500 pharmaceutical jazz 150 a hit 2d6 init and +2 reaction that's I all
Okay, so, this has bothered me for a while - how does an auto-injector work with an inhaled drug? Does it just get handwaved away as another formulation of the drug that's injected?
I believe it's like how if you drink a contact poison, you still get affected. The delivery method for drugs and toxins are just the ways they enter your bloodstream. So, being directly injected will logically work no matter the normal method.
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If the GM is overly worried about it, just mix it with DMSO.
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how would you rate the Lightning Reflexes quality from Run Faster, especially after chargen? This being for a mundane face, so I don't want to blow ESS and tank my social limit by adding all the 'ware
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how would you rate the Lightning Reflexes quality from Run Faster, especially after chargen? This being for a mundane face, so I don't want to blow ESS and tank my social limit by adding all the 'ware
I'd rate it as a "No", possibly even a "Hell no."
Also, the essence part of your social limit is negligible. Grab some fancy duds from Run & Gun and you've made it up. Get some Tailored Pheromones and you ADD 3 to your Social Limit, which is more than the essence part can even contribute.
Get the 'ware. Do it. For all of us.
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I'd rate it as a "No", possibly even a "Hell no."
Get the 'ware. Do it. For all of us.
So spend all my karma becoming the ultimate PR elf, and all my cash trying to change from Scarlet Johansen into Major Kusanagi? I ask because as it stands we have a sword adept, my face/skillmonkey, and a technomancer, and we're kinda worried about combats (also spirits).
Tailored Pherimones was the first thing I bought, but also the only augment I have so far; though I was planing on getting smartlink installed as soon as my character realized that she can't go back to hollywood/had the money to do it.
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So spend all my karma becoming the ultimate PR elf, and all my cash trying to change from Scarlet Johansen into Major Kusanagi? I ask because as it stands we have a sword adept, my face/skillmonkey, and a technomancer, and we're kinda worried about combats (also spirits).
Tailored Pherimones was the first thing I bought, but also the only augment I have so far; though I was planing on getting smartlink installed as soon as my character realized that she can't go back to hollywood/had the money to do it.
Definitely get the SmartLink. If you're slowly building up, then I recommend drugs as your initiative booster of choice until you can afford Synaptic Boosters. An auto-injector full of Jazz is a wonderful thing. And you can even get that implanted for pretty cheap. Stick with pharmaceutical grade drugs (from Chrome Flesh) and consider a Narco treatment if you find yourself liking the drugs.
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Keep in mind relying on drugs means you don't get the bonuses until the second CT.
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Keep in mind relying on drugs means you don't get the bonuses until the second CT.
Or you have to use them early... which can lead you to NOT being juiced up when you need it, or ODing from keeping juiced up waiting for the combat. Not to mention addiction and burn out.
Nothing is easy or free in SR. Everything has a price.
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Cram lasts 12 minus Body hours, not sure how you can miss with that kind of window.
If Jazz is your drug of choice, Blitz if it looks like it'll be a tough fight. Pop Jazz on your last action if it looks like you'll need it.
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Pre-popping Cram can make it tricky to be stealthy and/or smooth-talking during the infiltration part of a run. On the other hand, it's great to distribute to gangers before they swarm a target.
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What? Don't want jittery people messing up the meet with the Johnson or shooting the guard your just observing?
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I find that 2d6 initiative dice, along with a base initative of at least 9 (ensuring that 2 passes always happens) is enough for a secondary combatant like the face or decker (assuming it isn't a combat decker).
For a Face character or other mundane, I will often just give them the Booster, for it's flat 1d6 for only 10k nuyen, since I usually don't have to have them min-maxed to fit as much 'ware into their body as possible.
The use of combat drugs can also be important. If combat is likely, a dose of Cram can go a long way to making you more capable. It lasts for a while too, so you don't need to use it that much.
That's what I did for my Face character but then got a slew of suggestions form the missions group that I needed to have at least two levels of Synaptic Boosting and/or combat drugs.
Considering over 90,000 of her resources went to 'ware that assisted her her in her primary skill (Tailored Pheromones 3) and she had at least 60,000 devoted to fake IDs/licenses (important for her role) as well as other implants like Muscle Toner to give her enough Agility so she actually could be somewhat effective with a gun, armour mods like SmartSkin Nanoware so if things went south she wouldn't go down after the first shot, boosting for Perception so she wasn't caught off guard, and high fashion armour clothing to impress the Johnson that she meant biz,, that was not a possibility even with A level priorities. It also meant less for skills or attributes just to have enough resources to cover the all the 'ware.
I really miss the million nuyen [insert archetype here]. Crikey even 600,000 would be nice as most bioware (which is more Essence, thus Social Limit friendly) was not reduced in price since 3rd ED.