Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: ProfessorCirno on <10-31-15/0210:25>
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Welcome to Cirno's School For Runners Who Can't Punch Good and Want to Kill With Other Stuff Good Too.
Today we're going to be BRIEFLY discussing how to kill baddies through the power of your swole. Well, more to the point, we're gonna be looking at melee options and melee characters in general. We'll also somewhat briefly go over non-gun ranged options, as they really do fall into the same category. This covers a pretty wide gamut, so join me as I go through the various ways to put that "samurai" into "sweet samurai," and maybe add a little phys to your adept. I'll also once again press that this is going to be somewhat brief - I'm not examining every bit of 'ware, just the basics. First, let's talk about what you're MOSTLY getting in a melee character.
All forms of melee combat offer something small and easily hidden. There's no gunpowder to worry about with chemical sensors, nothing you have to keep disassembled because it's big time forbidden, there's a lot of easy ways to sneak stuff past sensors, etc, etc. Worst case scenario you can probably grab a melee weapon (or just use your FISTS) somewhere in the operation zone. Melee isn't a bad choice for assassins because it's very difficult to NOT be armed.
Melee characters are going to want to be running literally all the time. With their desire to have high strength connected with that, melee characters share a huge overlap with your "parkour" style character - your urban travel specialist. You can't always escape via car, and sometimes it's best to pass the goods to a courier while everyone else goes to ground.
- Big Guy, Move That Thing!
Sometimes high strength is its own reward. Sometimes you just need someone with tree trunk sized muscles to, well, muscle a thing.
- (Adepts Only) Lmao Magic Threats
Absolutely nothing will put down magical threats faster or easier then a melee adept. Absolutely nothing. Spirits, vampires, awakened critters - the number of defenses that killer fists or weapon foci slice through is close to the whole list of actual defenses.
- Melee Beats Guns (In Melee)
Ranged attacks get a lot of penalties when someone is in your face - and melee gets a lot of bonuses AGAINST ranged attacks when it's in someone's face. Once you hit point blank, it's significantly harder to out-fight someone with a knife. This is why a decent number of people take Ambidextrous specifically to go knife+pistol.
Let's face it - there's a style to melee. Generic shooting games have become just the biggest possible cliche, so going full RULES OF NATURE has a real distinct flavor to it. In a veritable sea of stock grunting rifle guys, being someone who actually literally pounds the life out of an enemy is gonna stand out. And frankly, if you aren't playing to be cool, what ARE you doing? Style IS substance, man!
- You Actually Can Do Awesome Damage
At 10 strength - which is for trolls and ork sammies - a claymore will do 15P damage. That's anti-material rifle damage. That's almost assault cannon damage. At 8 strength (or 7 + critical strike) which is human adepts and just about any ork, the humble katana does 13P, and even the tiny little ol' knife does 11P. You're gonna be real good at murdering people.
So let's look first at our killing options, then how we do it.
Blades
Something of a classic option for the steel-muscled samurai. I mean, he's even called a samurai! There's a few options here that greatly outshine most of the competition. There are a number of options on how you kill people with bladed weapons, to boot!
Claymore - expensive, impossible to get in chargen, and huge, the claymore is the best melee weapon to use when actually just murdering all kinds of people. It has it's downsides - you'll never be able to hide it and you can't start with it - but it's hard not to want it at least a little if you're going for close combat. A good upgrade for non-subtle warriors who start with the axe.
Combat Axe - The shotgun of melee weapon, the combat axe has atrocious accuracy and is pretty darn hard to hid on your person, but high damage, high reach, and high armor piercing. Fantastic for the troll of your group, the combat axe is an unsubtle death tool. You'll want to upgrade to a claymore eventually though.
Katana - Ahh, the classics. Sure, it ain't the 80's anymore, and we don't need to Turn Up the Radio, but some things don't go out of style. I'm sure someone reading this is getting ready to type an essay even bigger then this worthless post on how they AREN'T THAT SPECIAL and FURTHERMORE WESTERN SWORDS - bro, save it. Shadowrun always has been and always will be at least a little anime. Mechanically, katanas are good well rounders; they do good damage, have decent AC, and amazing accuracy. The book says they're two handed weapons; most GMs won't really care if you go one handed, but if they do, and using it one handed is important, then the monosword is basically a katana with a bit less accuracy, and a vibrosword is a loud katana with a bit more damage.
Knife - Good ol' reliable. The knife is your ace in the sleeve; always easy to hide somewhere, often overlooked, and frankly timeless. There's never a reason to go with the vanilla flavor; the survival knife is a good subtle killing tool, the memory blade is for real tricky infiltrating, and sapphire knife is for style points and for never having to worry about a scanner ever again.
Tomahawk - A character theme I've wanted to go with for awhile! Adepts work well here for missile mastery. This is more a throwing character that can also melee. Tomahawks have the best throwing damage and not super shabby melee damage either. If your GM is nice, they'll allow missile mastery to work on tomahawks even when fighting face to face, too.
Blunt
In SR4, blunt weapons were fantastic because shock sticks were strong and didn't require high strength to do their damage. In SR5 they still kinda do that, but a max damage of 9 isn't that great, and it is significantly easier (and a no brainer) to defend against shock attacks. Also, I personally find clubs to be sorta boring. So, they suffer. The only real option, either way, is to go with one of the shock-sticks. Bunt weapons otherwise offer no upgrade over blades due to having the same damage, but no armor piercing.
Unarmed
Sadly, unarmed isn't doing as hot. It does far better if you allow for 'ware (and has a few niche branches of it's own there), but for all you kung-fu adepts out there, this just isn't all that supported. The other issue with unarmed is how stacking works. If you go spur, do you add the reach from punch calluses? Probably not? If you go with razornails and you have level 4 BONES, do you use bone damage with fingernail armor piercing? The easiest hypothetical answer is "bioware mixes with itself, cyberware doesn't." Either way, there's four major methods of punch.
Cyberweapons - Cyberweapons unsurprisingly are the big choice for people who already have cyber limbs. The two biggest ways to do this are either keeping a spur in your cyberarm when you go for a mixed guns+melee build, or going for a taekwando expert. I mean, you'll still probably want bones.
Dem Bones - Wrapping your bones in stuff - or just getting REAL GOOD BONES - likewise increases your punch. While you don't get the minor armor piercing that spurs get, the bigger benefit is that you probably already wanted to get the bones augment in the first place. I mean, you can still get a spur on top of it, it just won't add a whole lot, but it might also be super sick and stylish so go for it.
Killing Hands - Nope. Sorry adepts. You kinda suck at this. The only way to add damage to your punch outside of critical strike (which is just +1 DV) is having a very specific mentor spirit that might not even fit your character. Elemental punch is an absolutely terrible trap choice. Get some 'ware.
Shock Punch - If you add strength damage to this, it's a no-brainer. That's not what the rules say though, so shock-punch isn't a good option for someone to specialize in. This is for people who put one point into unarmed in chargen "just in case."
Exotic
In truth, there are only two things to look at here, and this is where this post becomes REAL biased. I will note now: if you want to be a non-strength heavy melee combatant, these are really your only two options.
Monowhip - I think monowhips are dumb. From a purely practical viewpoint they are the best option every single time. There is no non-gun option that is better then a monowhip. The only downside it has - "oh no critical glitch" - is absorbed by just being good at using the monowhip in the first place, and thus doesn't even really exist. But I think it's dumb, and I think the concept and aesthetics are stupid, and having one clarified easily "the best" option is boring, so bleh. Screw the monowhip.
Chainsaw - Oh hell yes. Chainsaws are awesome. I mean sure, they'll NEVER fit in a game that isn't loud to the max, but sometimes you just really wanna chainsaw a dude. Chainsaws get another special mention - you can stick it on your gun Gears style and it actually isn't a terrible idea! See, this gives you a non-strength required melee weapon attached to your weapon, allowing you to wield both a strong gun and a melee weapon without requiring Ambidextrous, and having a melee option is good for reasons already listed.
So now that we've looked at what we're using to kill people with, who's doing the actual killing? A quick look at metahumanity.
Humans
Humans have a major problem: their max strength is 6, except MOST melee characters will max out agility, meaning their max strength in chargen is 5. Without augmentation, their general damage output is going to be between 6 and 8. That's just not enough. At this point, a character would be hard pressed to think of a reason not to use a gun, when even a pistol will be doing equal if not more damage. The upside to humans is a big one: Priority E. Humans are bar none the best for making a ware/adept hybrid, and maybe even the only race that can actually do it period. Humans are also probably the best if you just want to sprinkle a bit of melee onto an otherwise ranged character. Really, the less focused you are on melee (while still having it as an option), the better humans look due to their ability to make use of their priorities. Priority E even starts with Edge 3 - not a bad way to go at all.
Elves
I know elven samurai are probably classic, but...they suck at melee. Sorry. They have the same major downside humans have without the upside. Now, if you wanted to go a non-strength monowhip (bleh) or chainsaw (YEAH!) build, elves would be much better at those, but those are both fairly niche for the purposes of this look. Stick to your guns and shaman, elves - you're way, way better at them.
Dwarves
I have literally never cared about dwarves in Shadowrun.
Orks
Orks are sorta the designated "cyber samurai" of metahumanity, and it shows. Mix up attributes and resources at A and B and you'll have an exception close range fighter, if somewhat one note with the lack of skills. That isn't to say they're bad adepts - in fact, orks are probably the best adepts, too. I'm gonna just go out on a limb and say orks are fantastic at fighting in melee regardless of how you do it - at least, on the assumption you wanna do at least a little more then murder. Whenever you make a melee character, you should always pause and ask "but can it be an ork?"
Trolls
Trolls are natural tanks, and they can be short ranged tanks with ease. The primary issue of trolls is what you give up. Stuck at priority A or B, with the other likely going to attributes, also go Troll A because you gain so much more doing so, doesn't leave a lot of space. Furthermore, because of their high caps, trolls are actually rather terrible when it comes to cyberlimbs. A troll is going to be the absolute best at murderdeathkill face-to-face, but at the cost of being pretty rubbish in literally everything else. The good thing about trolls is that they have a lot of space to grow. Trolls are naturally tall characters - not literally, but, well, also literally I guess. I mean more that trolls mechanically are pushed towards having a few very tall peaks of specialization, and very little small stuff.
Ok, so we know what we're killing with and who we are - but HOW are we killing? There's three overall options here. Adepts, sammies...and the ever elusive hybrid.
Adept
If you've read everything so far, you know that melee adepts are bar none the best at killing magical threats. The downside is, they're going to fall behind in total overall damage to sammies and their cheap attribute boosters. An adept typically has only one way to raise damage - critical strike - and while +1DV isn't bad, it's not much to muscle aug's +3. Accuracy (as in, ability to hit, not the stat) is more balanced out; the sammy gets between +3 and +4 (muscle toner + possible reflex recorder) while the sammy gets +3 from Increased Skill, and potentially +2-ish more from Agility Boost. However, Agility Boost has it's own share of problems; it ruins your custom fit suits, and more importantly, costs an action. Which in turn can be fixed with rapid draw. Point is, when it comes to using a weapon, adepts and sammies are probably about even. Sadly, as was mentioned above, when you're NOT using a weapon, that stops being true fast. A sammie is going to be adding on average +6 to their punch DV; +3 from muscle aug, +3 from their unarmored punch attack of choice. Adepts on the other hand can only really add +3, and that's only if they take a specific mentor spirit. So, sorry adepts - stick to the swords. The biggest advantage adepts have is initiative; starting off with +3+3d6 is a huge benefit. If people on these forums tell you to take only two points then get a ki foci for the rest, ignore them. Ki foci have a much more important place: your versatility. There are a lot of adept powers you don't need on 24/7, and these make PERFECT ki foci, so stick to those. Elemental attacks are a massive trap; you only get one, it costs an action, and it doesn't actually increase your damage. Adepts make great dodge monkies too; melee characters will already likely have higher defense rolls due to countless modifiers, and nobody cam stack more defense rolls then adepts can. Note that adepts will need to do some harsh prioritizing in chargen on where their money is; expect to save up your nuyen early on to buy more and better SINs and other vague necessities. Weapon Focus is invaluable; not for the +attack dice, but for it's ability to slice through any sort of supernatural defense like butter. Just wave it around vaguely when a vampire turns to mist to kill it!
Sammies
Sammies are going to be more in depth due to their wider variety of 'ware. Broadly speaking any sammy worth their salt wants to capitalize on their big advantage: (relatively) cheap, easy attribute augs. Namely, muscle toner and muscle augmentation. Cyberlimbs are a possibility but something of a trap; they mechanically encourage dumping your stats...except you need high agility (and probably strength) in your LEGS if you ever want to REACH the bad guys. This means cyberlimbed sammies are going to sorta want to fall into three categories; those that only get cyberlimbs and go full taekwando, those that take a mixed gun+melee approach and only use melee when baddies come to THEM, and full cyberlimb everything psychos that are actual tanks in human disguise. Accept you won't be beating adepts at initiative, and note that, while adepts are better at dodging, you're better at absorbing. New skin, new bones, and cyberlimbs if you go that route can all add to your armor. Adepts flip around and slice bullets like anime ninjas; you just take shots to the chest and keep going Doomguy style.
Hybrids
Combining 'ware and adepts ain't easy. But it's doable. But it ain't easy. For a long time, the primary method was to simply be an adept then buy some 'ware. This had downsides of course - magic is harder and more expensive to earn back the higher it is when you lose it. The second way is to just not really be all that magical in the first place; this is where I personally put a lot of Edge heavy builds. Unfortunately, that also has a downside; melee is, sadly, a bit of a specialist build. Having only a little magic and a little 'ware means you'll only have a little bit of an advantage, which usually won't beat out full adept or 'ware builds until you get enough karma to make up for it. But now there's another way. Enter the prototype transhuman. This quality gives you one free point of ESS to spend in chargen! The downside is of course that you have to SPEND it in chargen. The actual downside to the quality is negligible compared to this - it means you need both high enough resources to buy your 'ware and high enough magic for it to be worthwhile. This is why I noted humans are the best, if not maybe ONLY options for transhuman hybrids. Only with Human E will you really have the priority spaces or points to make it possible. The big thing you want is muscle aug - doing this allows you to have the best of both worlds, so to speak. Non-ork/troll adepts should pay rrreeeeeaaaaal close attention to this.
And that's kinda it
Hope you enjoyed the probably garbage post. I won't pretend to be any sort of expert in Shadowrun; this is just mostly a collection of things I've noticed as someone who really likes dumb melee characters. Feel free to pick things apart below and tell me how dumb and stupid this post was and how useless all my thoughts have been! Unless you're going to try to talk up monowhips. Ugh. Don't even. Monowhips. Bleh.
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ADDENDUM BECAUSE MY DUMB POST WAS TOO LONG:
But what if I don't want strength?
Too bad.
Here's the thing. Every character has to add something to the group, right? Goes without mention, I hope. So what do YOU add? A melee focused character's typical response is: damage. I am a dude who kills the bad guys. But you need to do actual damage to do that! Look at the damage you do and compare it to damage you'd do with a gun. The basic and simple threshold is 8P - the damage of a good heavy pistol. If you do less then that, what are you doing? What are you adding that you wouldn't add with a pistol? And for the most part, to hit that threshold, you need strength.
What about mystic adepts or melee wizards or
I've never looked deeply into spellcasting. Sorry! Just not something that really interested me.
Ok but marital arts can
Martial arts aren't that good!
Here's what you care about. Kick makes you fight better with your kicks (see; taekwando cyberleg expert). Parkour lets non-adepts steal cool adept tricks because man I dunno, adepts kinda got the short end of the stick there I guess. Iaijutsu lets you draw your sword and attack as a non-complex action, which is real important. The rest tend to be very karma heavy in price and not that great in efficiency and use - too specialized, really.
A side note on ranged attacks
So. You CAN have a gun. But should you?
Consider: at strength 5, which is the lowest it should be for anyone, throwing knives will do 6P and tomahawks and bows 7P. A point below your standard heavy pistols...but the tomahawk will actually outrange a heavy pistol, and a bow will DRAMATICALLY outrange it! At strength 8 - an ork adept or human sammie - you're looking at 9P on your knives, 10P on your tomahawks and bows, and now the knives have almost as much range, the tomahawk goes way farther, and the bow is creeping up on the ares alpha. At strength 10 - an ork sammie or troll - you're looking at throwing weapons that are the equals to alphas, and bows that actually have a higher max range.
Just something to consider.
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Point of note:
Pg 185 of the CRB lists the max range of a heavy pistol as 60 meters.
For a throwing knife (tomahawk) to "outrange" a heavy pistol, you need a strength of 13, as extreme range is listed as STR x 5.
Only shurikens get an impressive range modified of x7 for extreme range.... but they are light, aerodynamic weapons.
Unless something has changed in hard targets....
Other then that, not bad!
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You're forgetting weapon foci, melee adepts can be the kings of accuracy. The damage problem can be mitigated if you can generate enough successes on the hit roll. The other thing you're failing to consider is melee defense. Parry pool can easily be made higher then attack pool (just more stuff adds to them), and even if you're swing 15P, if ya can't connect damage means nothing.
Unarmed is actually amazing in 5th, P-limit accuracy. Making it potentially the most accurate weapon in the game.
That leads into making martial arts useful, yes martial are generally not a game changer. But they have very specific uses. It's all about comboing it all together.
Clinch is actually amazingly effective in the right spot, negating reach advantage, targets straight reaction + Int, doesn't give a crap how strong the target is, Clinch into throw into/or pouncing Dragon. Shadowblock with the right team can also be game changer. Disregarding them is a mistake.
Finally counter attack builds it is possible wander far down the rabbit hole with melee you can generate builds centered around killing the hell out anyone dumb enough to swing melee weapon at them.
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I've run the numbers and an out-of-chargen human blade adept is slightly ahead of an ork blade adept because humans can start with a greatest superpower - money. A human also starts with more skills but not overwhelmlingly so.
Human:
== Info ==
Name: Swordmaster Adept
Movement: 12/24
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Human
Composure: 6
Judge Intentions: 8
Lift/Carry: 10 (75 kg/50 kg)
Memory: 5
Nuyen: 1250
== Priorities ==
Metatype: E - Human
Attributes: A - 24 Attributes
Special: B - Adept, Magician, or Technomancer
Skills: C - 28 Skills/2 Skill Groups
Resources: D - 50,000¥
== Attributes ==
BOD: 5
AGI: 6
REA: 5 (8 )
STR: 5
CHA: 3 (1->3 for karma)
INT: 5
LOG: 2 (1->2 for karma)
WIL: 3
EDG: 3
MAG: 6
== Derived Attributes ==
Essence: 6
Initiative: 10 (13) + 4d6
Rigger Initiative: 13 + 4d6
Astral Initiative: 10 + 2d6
Matrix AR Initiative: 13 + 4d6
Matrix Cold Initiative: 5 + DP + 3d6
Matrix Hot Initiative: 5 + DP + 4d6
Physical Damage Track: 11
Stun Damage Track: 10
== Limits ==
Physical: 8
Mental: 4
Social: 5
Astral: 5
== Active Skills ==
Archery : 6 Pool: 12
Blades : 6 [Swords] Pool: 15 (17)
Etiquette : 4 Pool: 7
Gymnastics : 2 Pool: 10
Perception : 6 Pool: 11
Pilot Ground Craft : 4 Pool: 12
Running : 2 Pool: 9
Sneaking : 4 [Urban] Pool: 10 (12)
Swimming : 2 Pool: 7
== Knowledge Skills ==
18 points
== Contacts ==
9 points
== Qualities ==
Acrobatic Defender
Adept
Code of Honor (Bushido)
Mentor Spirit (Wolf)
Natural Athlete
Tough and Targeted
== Powers ==
Attribute Boost (AGI) Rating: 2
Combat Sense Rating: 1
Critical Strike (Blades)
Improved Ability (skill) (Blades) Rating: 3
Improved Reflexes 3
== Lifestyles ==
Low 1 months
== Armor ==
Armor Jacket 12
Helmet 2
Lined Coat 9
== Weapons ==
Ares 'One' Monosword
Pool: 15 (17) Accuracy: 5 DV: 9P AP: -3 RC: 3
Bow (Rating 5)
Pool: 12 Accuracy: 6 DV: 7P AP: -1 RC: 3
Combat Knife
Pool: 15 Accuracy: 6 DV: 8P AP: -3 RC: 3
Katana (Weapon Focus R3)
+Personalized Grip
Pool: 18 (20) Accuracy: 8 DV: 9P AP: -3 RC: 3
Unarmed Attack
Pool: 5 Accuracy: 8 DV: 5S AP: - RC: 3
== Commlink ==
Renraku Sensei (ATT: 0, SLZ: 0, DP: 3, FWL: 3)
== Gear ==
Arrow: Monotip Head (Bows) Rating 5 x10
Arrow: Standard (Bows) Rating 5 x10
Arrow: Stick-n-Shock w/Static Shaft (Bows) Rating 5 x10
Fake License (Adept License) Rating 2
Fake License (Large Blades License) Rating 2
Fake SIN Rating 2
Weapon Focus (Bonded Foci) (Katana) Rating 3
== Vehicles ==
Harley-Davidson Scorpion (Chopper)
+Sensor Array Rating 2
Ork:
== Info ==
Name: Ork Blade Adept
Movement: 12/24
Karma: 3
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Ork
Composure: 7
Judge Intentions: 7
Lift/Carry: 14 (105 kg/70 kg)
Memory: 7
Nuyen: 1300
== Priorities ==
Metatype: B - Any metatype
Attributes: A - 24 Attributes
Special: C - Adept, Magician, or Technomancer
Skills: D - 22 Skills/0 Skill Groups
Resources: E - 6,000¥
== Attributes ==
BOD: 7
AGI: 6
REA: 5 (8 )
STR: 7
CHA: 2 (1->2 for karma)
INT: 5
LOG: 2 (1->2 for karma)
WIL: 5
EDG: 3
MAG: 6
== Derived Attributes ==
Essence: 6
Initiative: 10 (13) + 4d6
Rigger Initiative: 13 + 4d6
Astral Initiative: 10 + 2d6
Matrix AR Initiative: 13 + 4d6
Matrix Cold Initiative: 5 + DP + 3d6
Matrix Hot Initiative: 5 + DP + 4d6
Physical Damage Track: 12
Stun Damage Track: 11
== Limits ==
Physical: 10
Mental: 5
Social: 5
Astral: 5
== Active Skills ==
Blades : 6 [Swords] Pool: 15 (17)
Etiquette : 4 Pool: 6
Gymnastics : 1 Pool: 9 (Athletics group 1 = 5 karma)
Perception : 6 Pool: 11
Pilot Ground Craft : 2 Pool: 10
Running : 1 Pool: 10 (Athletics group 1 = 5 karma)
Sneaking : 4 [Urban] Pool: 10 (12)
Swimming : 1 Pool: 8 (Athletics group 1 = 5 karma)
== Knowledge Skills ==
21 points
== Contacts ==
6 points
== Qualities ==
Adept
Code of Honor (Bushido)
Low-Light Vision
Mentor Spirit (Wolf)
Natural Athlete
Tough and Targeted
== Powers ==
Attribute Boost (AGI) Rating: 2
Combat Sense Rating: 1
Critical Strike (Blades)
Improved Ability (skill) (Blades) Rating: 3
Improved Reflexes 3
== Lifestyles ==
Low 1 months
== Armor ==
Armor Jacket 12
Helmet 2
Lined Coat 9
== Weapons ==
Combat Knife
Pool: 15 Accuracy: 6 DV: 10P AP: -3 RC: 4
Katana
+Personalized Grip
Pool: 15 (17) Accuracy: 8 DV: 11P AP: -3 RC: 4
Sword
Pool: 15 (17) Accuracy: 6 DV: 11P AP: -2 RC: 4
Unarmed Attack
Pool: 5 Accuracy: 10 DV: 7S AP: - RC: 4
== Commlink ==
Renraku Sensei (ATT: 0, SLZ: 0, DP: 3, FWL: 3)
== Gear ==
Fake License (Adept License) Rating 2
Fake License (Large Blades License) Rating 2
Fake SIN Rating 2
== Vehicles ==
Harley-Davidson Scorpion (Chopper)
+Sensor Array Rating 2
They are basically the same but an ork lacks a ranged option. An ork is more resilient and outdamages human with everything that is not a weapon focus. Hilariously, an ork here is having more knowledge skills and a higher mental limit. His karma leftover can also mitigate the human's advantage in contacts.
It is the same character, you only need to decide what do you like more: skill versatility or stat superiority, and just roll with it.
I'm willing to make more characters to compare. Maybe even a little field test against some sample enemies.
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Armor quality Gear Access and Positive Quality Perfect time for every melee character ever. Mechanically solves all the same issues Ambidexterity does, and has a lot more upside.
Never take any of the gimmicky fast draw options, just get Armor with Gear Access. Two Free actions per turn is also great for combat characters, especially if you're moving between melee and ranged combat.
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You missed the option of the high agility mono-whip wielding, cybered, Elf adept ;-)
No strength needed, slices and dices and dodges and runs better than most of the stuff you have posted above.
And he can shoot a gun straight without having to dump a lot of skill points into it.
Just saying.
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There is enough bio ware now to make the elf a bad ass. In my long term campaign my elf with 12 Agility and 10 strength does 15s/p with a punch. You just need the money/karma and time.
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You missed the option of the high agility mono-whip wielding, cybered, Elf adept ;-)
No strength needed, slices and dices and dodges and runs better than most of the stuff you have posted above.
And he can shoot a gun straight without having to dump a lot of skill points into it.
Just saying.
Wakyambi with Monowhip has high humor potential if you can fit in a splash of Bioware for +3 Agility. 60 meters per turn run speed. Back of the End Zone and out the back of the opposite End Zone in 6 seconds. 44 mph without sprinting. Who needs a car?
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You missed the option of the high agility mono-whip wielding, cybered, Elf adept ;-)
No strength needed, slices and dices and dodges and runs better than most of the stuff you have posted above.
And he can shoot a gun straight without having to dump a lot of skill points into it.
Just saying.
He didn't miss it, he just dismissed it. It's not exactly the same thing.
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True, but he's dismissing it out of hand as boring. Har!
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I normally hate the whole giant quote block thing...but, alas, nothing but to do it, hahaha.
I've run the numbers and an out-of-chargen human blade adept is slightly ahead of an ork blade adept because humans can start with a greatest superpower - money. A human also starts with more skills but not overwhelmlingly so.
~*~
They are basically the same but an ork lacks a ranged option. An ork is more resilient and outdamages human with everything that is not a weapon focus. Hilariously, an ork here is having more knowledge skills and a higher mental limit. His karma leftover can also mitigate the human's advantage in contacts.
It is the same character, you only need to decide what do you like more: skill versatility or stat superiority, and just roll with it.
I'm willing to make more characters to compare. Maybe even a little field test against some sample enemies.
Yeah, the big thing humans get - their saving grace so to speak - is their ability to tank their Metahuman priority. However, don't forget to take the long term game into consideration. The human can START with more stuff then the ork, but there are diminishing returns on upgrades due to their increasing costs; the ork will catch up.
Point of note:
Pg 185 of the CRB lists the max range of a heavy pistol as 60 meters.
For a throwing knife (tomahawk) to "outrange" a heavy pistol, you need a strength of 13, as extreme range is listed as STR x 5.
Only shurikens get an impressive range modified of x7 for extreme range.... but they are light, aerodynamic weapons.
Unless something has changed in hard targets....
Other then that, not bad!
Ah, I see my mistake; there wasn't a chart for tomahawks and at that point I was using Chummer for ease of use, but chummer gave tomahawks aerodynamic grenade ranges (for...some reason?). Nonetheless I maintain that throwing can make an alternative for pistols in most fights, as in my experience you rarely are in places where you hit extreme ranges for pistols; you're either in the first two brackets (where, with strength 8, a tomahawk is better at short and four meters behind in medium), or at such a range that you're far beyond the extreme bracket.
You're forgetting weapon foci, melee adepts can be the kings of accuracy. The damage problem can be mitigated if you can generate enough successes on the hit roll. The other thing you're failing to consider is melee defense. Parry pool can easily be made higher then attack pool (just more stuff adds to them), and even if you're swing 15P, if ya can't connect damage means nothing.
Unarmed is actually amazing in 5th, P-limit accuracy. Making it potentially the most accurate weapon in the game.
That leads into making martial arts useful, yes martial are generally not a game changer. But they have very specific uses. It's all about comboing it all together.
Clinch is actually amazingly effective in the right spot, negating reach advantage, targets straight reaction + Int, doesn't give a crap how strong the target is, Clinch into throw into/or pouncing Dragon. Shadowblock with the right team can also be game changer. Disregarding them is a mistake.
Finally counter attack builds it is possible wander far down the rabbit hole with melee you can generate builds centered around killing the hell out anyone dumb enough to swing melee weapon at them.
Over focusing on weapon foci is, in my opinion, a mistake. The bigger your weapon foci, the smaller your potential ki foci can be, and ki foci are extremely important to adepts if you want to do anymore more then be a beat stick. To put it another way; each point of force in a weapon focus is worth .25 pp in a ki focus. In my experience adepts are already so accurate that you rarely if ever run the risk if missing as is, and given that it takes on average three dice to equate to run hit, you'd need much higher levels of weapon focus to compensate. When I run adepts I usually have two kinds of ki foci; those that are overwhelmingly used for non-combat stuff, and those used for "combat stuff but not so important that I need it all the time." Typically the former are force 6, the latter force 4, with a force 2 weapon foci, as, in my experience, it's rare to have karma levels reach so high that buying a new point of magic is more cost effective then initiating a new pp.
Likewise, focusing super heavily on accuracy is a mistake. You have to understand your odds. A katana is going to START at accuracy 7 - in order to regularly hit that, you need a dice pool of 21, and you can easily bring accuracy higher then that. Raising accuracy has diminishing returns on a level that raising most other options don't. Yes, a troll punchman can have accuracy 10 on their punches. Are you going to have a dice pool of 30?
My overwhelming problem with the martial arts options comes down to a simple question: can't I just kill 'em? Take Clinch. I CAN spend 7 karma to get the ability to grab someone and negate their Reach momentarily...or I just punch them and they fall down. I COULD spend another 5 karma, so now I grab them and throw them for some overall kinda piddly damage...or I could've just punched them and they would've fallen down. The best status effect is dead. Now, if we could get all action movie with it and grab a dude and just haul him around everyone and thrown him at people for much bigger damage and used him as a shield against attacks with ease, that'd be one thing, but unfortunately Shadowrun tries to go all "simulationist" with it's melee rules (see also: the terrible move to keep attacks as a complex action) so in the vast, vast majority of cases, you're simply better off mashing attack. As for counter builds, you have to weigh the cost of karma and how often it happens. Those CAN be useful if your GM enjoys using melee characters as well, so I'll be adding those in.
Armor quality Gear Access and Positive Quality Perfect time for every melee character ever. Mechanically solves all the same issues Ambidexterity does, and has a lot more upside.
Never take any of the gimmicky fast draw options, just get Armor with Gear Access. Two Free actions per turn is also great for combat characters, especially if you're moving between melee and ranged combat.
I disagree strongly. Gear Access and Perfect Time (I will note I abhor perfect time but I won't dismiss it - unlike the monowhip ;)) allow you to draw as a free...and still attack as a complex. That's the important bit. Gear Access gives you an additional free action. Using the adept power Quick Draw - and remember, adepts are the ones with the bigger action crunch due to Agility Boost - allows you to run as a free, use a simple to Boost, then your other simple to draw+attack. You get an additional simple action.
There is enough bio ware now to make the elf a bad ass. In my long term campaign my elf with 12 Agility and 10 strength does 15s/p with a punch. You just need the money/karma and time.
My goal was to compare to other options. You can make a cool elf melee character. Doing the same with pretty much any other metahuman would lead to better results.
...
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...Also, sorry, you'll never bring me to the monowhip side ;)
Like, yes. I acknowledge that monowhips ARE universally the best option every time forever period. That's (one of the) reason(s) that they're so boring. It's so much more an obvious answer over everything else that it's existence renders melee fighting period pointless. There's no reason to ever use a non-monowhip. And that's dull. So I ignore it.
Also it looks dumb.
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True, but he's dismissing it out of hand as boring. Har!
That's tough but fair. lol :)
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I posted this elsewhere and got a question so I thought I'd respond to it here, also.
"No mention of nerve strike for adepts? It might be more cheesy than monowhips."
Nerve Strike is an all or nothing thing. Because there's no actual DV involved, and because none of your allies can deal the same damage, you need to be able to overwhelming their agility or reaction in one hit. It just ends up being pretty gimmicky with the same sorta issues that combat spells get. An AXE TROLL just needs one success to ruin your day.
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Also, to ask the question here, I very briefly mention it in my first post, but what are peoples' thoughts about stacking various amounts of bioware? If it all stacks you get sharkskin, claws, and striking calluses on hands and feet to give a whopping +2 Reach, +2 DV to all unarmed combat. I feel like it's not actually meant to work that way! That's before taking spurs and bones into account to boot! It would also make kung fu adepts 100% entirely obsolete in every way.
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Over focusing on weapon foci is, in my opinion, a mistake. The bigger your weapon foci, the smaller your potential ki foci can be, and ki foci are extremely important to adepts if you want to do anymore more then be a beat stick. To put it another way; each point of force in a weapon focus is worth .25 pp in a ki focus. In my experience adepts are already so accurate that you rarely if ever run the risk if missing as is, and given that it takes on average three dice to equate to run hit, you'd need much higher levels of weapon focus to compensate. When I run adepts I usually have two kinds of ki foci; those that are overwhelmingly used for non-combat stuff, and those used for "combat stuff but not so important that I need it all the time." Typically the former are force 6, the latter force 4, with a force 2 weapon foci, as, in my experience, it's rare to have karma levels reach so high that buying a new point of magic is more cost effective then initiating a new pp.
Likewise, focusing super heavily on accuracy is a mistake. You have to understand your odds. A katana is going to START at accuracy 7 - in order to regularly hit that, you need a dice pool of 21, and you can easily bring accuracy higher then that. Raising accuracy has diminishing returns on a level that raising most other options don't. Yes, a troll punchman can have accuracy 10 on their punches. Are you going to have a dice pool of 30?
My overwhelming problem with the martial arts options comes down to a simple question: can't I just kill 'em? Take Clinch. I CAN spend 7 karma to get the ability to grab someone and negate their Reach momentarily...or I just punch them and they fall down. I COULD spend another 5 karma, so now I grab them and throw them for some overall kinda piddly damage...or I could've just punched them and they would've fallen down. The best status effect is dead. Now, if we could get all action movie with it and grab a dude and just haul him around everyone and thrown him at people for much bigger damage and used him as a shield against attacks with ease, that'd be one thing, but unfortunately Shadowrun tries to go all "simulationist" with it's melee rules (see also: the terrible move to keep attacks as a complex action) so in the vast, vast majority of cases, you're simply better off mashing attack. As for counter builds, you have to weigh the cost of karma and how often it happens. Those CAN be useful if your GM enjoys using melee characters as well, so I'll be adding those in.
Primary limits on foci are cash cost and Karma cost, followed by addiction risk then very distantly the magic multiple thing. You can turn foci off, including ki foci, so there is no reason you can't have both a maxium safe number of both in and out of combat foci, once a character has been in play long enough. Dismissing weapon foci, is a mistake as they represent a unique to hit die source. It's a major advantage.
Focusing on accuracy is the key to statistic success. Yes you have can't focus on it to the exclusion of everything else, but it should always be the first thing you consider, in a primary melee build. Yes having accuracy 8 and pool of 24 may seem like over kill, but multi-attack is a good option and it can be made to work. When fighting with minor opponents dividing your pool into 2 pools of 12 or 3 pools of 8 will let you clear targets far more rapidly. In the long run you have to move beyond the damage paradigm.
Finally, Yes efficiently dropping targets in good, but it's really not that interesting. If body count is all you seek melee is not the best way to go. Melee can be made to do a lot more, and there in lies the real strength of the melee option. Controlling the field. Defeating the oppo without killing him is a much more interesting thing to build for. Building so that one character can defend the rest of the party in melee is like wise difficult but something that can be achieved, and is much more interesting in a build, and more fun to play.
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Oh, I agree.
If you are using a pistol past medium range, you're in trouble!
Chummer is a great free program.... but its not flawless. Still a great program for what it is. (I use it all the time too)
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I disagree that whips are a no-brainer. Although they are quite good.
It's easy enough to have an ork sam with a Physical Limit of 13, punching at like 16P. Yes, you won't get the insane -AP from the whip, but it's also with totally legal augmentations (so no need to worry about the whip ever getting found), and you'll also have a nice amount of inherent RC from the STR.
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I disagree strongly. Gear Access and Perfect Time (I will note I abhor perfect time but I won't dismiss it - unlike the monowhip ;)) allow you to draw as a free...and still attack as a complex. That's the important bit. Gear Access gives you an additional free action. Using the adept power Quick Draw - and remember, adepts are the ones with the bigger action crunch due to Agility Boost - allows you to run as a free, use a simple to Boost, then your other simple to draw+attack. You get an additional simple action.
Rapid Draw is .5 PP, vs Perfect Time 5 Karma. And the list of useful free actions is pretty long, vs. Rapid Draws specific uses. Adept Powers, Auto-injectors, turning on/off wireless, dropping prone, lots of things to be doing with multiple Free Actions per turn. Or extending a Mono-whip.... ;D . And Perfect Time continues to be useful after your weapon is out and you're stuck in.
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I disagree that whips are a no-brainer. Although they are quite good.
It's easy enough to have an ork sam with a Physical Limit of 13, punching at like 16P. Yes, you won't get the insane -AP from the whip, but it's also with totally legal augmentations (so no need to worry about the whip ever getting found), and you'll also have a nice amount of inherent RC from the STR.
And sometimes you just need a character with a decent STR. I was on a run that almost ended when we had to climb a rope. Small team, just a Shaman, Decker and Face, about 3 Str between them IIRC. Much levitation was needed. Same run we ran into a stuck door and almost needed to use explosives. Hilarity ensued.
Also, Monowhips, always illegal. Fists, always legal. Typically not a concern after you get that Deltaware Fingertip, but until then.
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The ol' "critical glitch and you cut yourself" is a nasty draw back too for monowhips.
And before you say "yes but you can use Edge to re-roll" as a defense, I watched a character litterally kill themselves with a whip in a single game session. They rolled a critical glitch 4 times!!! (And had only 3 edge).
The randomness of dice just LOVE to fuck over you statistics counters.
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Well, if that happens to you with a decent pool, bad luck.
I have a hate-love for the Mono-Whip.
On the plus, its extremely powerful, super easy to conceal and doesn't require you wasting to many points in strength.
On the other hand, its such a boring no-brainer, as someone above me already said. Its also an Exotic Weapon, so no specialization Dice, which is a bit of a shame.
I have a faint idea for a Move-by-Wire Build who uses Skillsofts for the Monowhip and maybe other Exotic weaponry, but its only a rough draft as of now. Whipping without Edge might be a bit suicidal though, but that could be part of the fun.
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The ol' "critical glitch and you cut yourself" is a nasty draw back too for monowhips.
And before you say "yes but you can use Edge to re-roll" as a defense, I watched a character litterally kill themselves with a whip in a single game session. They rolled a critical glitch 4 times!!! (And had only 3 edge).
The randomness of dice just LOVE to fuck over you statistics counters.
What was his pool?
That should be epicly unlikely if your pool is in 16+ range.
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No mention of martial arts? Also worth mentioning the diamond/ceramic blades as totally undetectable by scanners
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To me, Martial Arts are too much buck for not enough bang, barring specific, really-good styles like Wudang Sword.
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Something to add to those options:
Adepts don't need (necessarily) strength: Nervestrike (B&B) disables a target with one or two strikes pretty reliably.
2 pairs of Striking Calluses increase your unarmed damage by 2 - and it stacks. Add Bone Density 4 and you have a completely legal +5 to damage.
Also, Hard Targets has introduced Plaststeel Toe Boots - legal knucks for your feet.
Light Body + Pouncing Dragon is another easy +2 to damage. Combine that with Jiao Di on a charge for another +1 (and while you are at it, combine it with a Flying Kick) and you have a +4 to damage
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He also forgot Penatrating Strike Power for adepts. That let's them eventually hit -4 AP for there unarmed attacks, which like killing hands, stacks with some kinds of ware, such as bone mods, striking calluses, etc.
Besides starting money, humans get more edge, which is a big deal always. And human are not treated like crap by most groups, orcs and trolls are.
Also, while straight damage maybe high with the cyber at first, long run games adepts will blow them out of the water with the dice pools, which will force accuracy to matter. Max skill of 12(13) plus maxed increase ability of 6(7) gives a dice pool of 18(20) pre attributes, specializations, or gear mods (such as weapon foci). Also, so your adept maybe addicted to his Qi and weapon foci, point? Massive boost to weak areas without needing to shrewd is soul early on? Oh, sad day.
Throwing or bows are nice, but can require lage investments (and gear for bow) to be truly practical. Throwing, less so if your using grenades. As of hard targets, adepts or mystic adepts might soon be the rulers of bow land. Biggest issue with both as primary range weapons is no way to impose defense pool penalties, unlike with automatics skill group.
One trick pony let's you steal one of the useful martial art maneuvers without focusing on one style. I like finishing strike on high initiative high edge characters. But it is a personal flavor thing.
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The ol' "critical glitch and you cut yourself" is a nasty draw back too for monowhips.
And before you say "yes but you can use Edge to re-roll" as a defense, I watched a character litterally kill themselves with a whip in a single game session. They rolled a critical glitch 4 times!!! (And had only 3 edge).
The randomness of dice just LOVE to fuck over you statistics counters.
What was his pool?
That should be epicly unlikely if your pool is in 16+ range.
As I recall, it was in the 14 dice range, so not a bad pool at all.
But a little history is in order.... the player in question is a number cruncher. He likes to figure out his odds and chances. (So like 70% of the people here...)
He is also Fate little whipping boy. No word of a lie, this guy as THE MOST epically bad luck when it comes to dice. Doesn't matter the game, doesn't matter how many dice or how big of a modifier he has, he WILL screw himself over at least twice a night. In fact, that is the only thing you can count on!
Just how bad is his luck? He is the only guy I have ever watched roll 8 ones in a row (on a D20)! Sonething that should be staticially impossible... (odds of that are 1:25,000,000, or so he says)
And, his craptastic luck with dice has haunted him for the 15+ years I have gamed with him....
so yea, crunch those numbers all you like, if you have "Jeff sized luck", you're still screwed!
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Another word on weapon foci:
Knucks are great if combined with elemental weapon. Fire gives you AP 6 - a great bargain compared to penetrating strike.
Adepts have now also access to one spell. Element Aura increases your unarmed DV by your hits and gives you the appropriate AP.
Focused concentration and some reagents/edge will make you into an exceptional damage machine.
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Only issue with elemental weapon, etc. is right armor mods can cripple those powers, where penetrating strike will always work. Also, elemental weapon requires a simple to activate plus weapon foci, which is kinda unnecessary for unarmed adepts (except dice pool mods). That said, adept spell has added all kinds of cool options for adapts to use.
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I would love to see some actual builds of a usable brawler / thrower.
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I actually have one in play in Tribal Beats (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21610.msg390132#msg390132)
No shadowrunner but a ganger.
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I would love to see some actual builds of a usable brawler / thrower.
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21827.0
That's my last melee build, in here. I think it's decent, though a little dated at this point.
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Dated ? How would you update it ?
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I have one posted here and in Wakazani contest (using his rules) so he is not perfectly optimized, but decent. Needs some correcting for more general play. Biggest issue was core only, and odd skill cap, basically like how 4th ed use to do skill cap limits. I would fiddle with his skills so he has more 6s, at least in unarmed combat, and try to take a few ranks in penetrating strike.
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Dated ? How would you update it ?
I'd want play with the power setup, specifically looking at the ability to cast one spell from HT. My first choice would probably be manablade, b/c it's fresh and new, and could go a long way to mitigating the damage issue. Though exactly what that does still fairly unsure. But adding one spell adds so many options.
Conceptually that melee build could be adapted into a lot of other options, a race change, a weapon swap combined with a martial arts swap. I just wanted to post an adept build I liked, and that wasn't overwhelmingly damaged focused.
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To me, Martial Arts are too much buck for not enough bang, barring specific, really-good styles like Wudang Sword.
Yeah there are a couple of gems in amongst all the dross, but though it odd it'd been skipped entirely in a how-to melee guide.
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Fire gives you AP 6
No, it doesn't. That AP is only to check for setting things on fire, as you can read in the text. By RAW "Elemental xxx" does nothing for AP as we have no defined AP-properties of the different attacks.
I know that all electricity-based weapons have AP -5, but that doesn't equate to a general rule.
For comparison:
Each element in SR4 was defined in Core as being resisted with half Impact armor. There is no such text in SR5.
So by making your strikes count as a certain element you often enough reduce effective damage, when the target uses armor mods.
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Fire gives you AP 6
No, it doesn't. That AP is only to check for setting things on fire, as you can read in the text. By RAW "Elemental xxx" does nothing for AP as we have no defined AP-properties of the different attacks.
I know that all electricity-based weapons have AP -5, but that doesn't equate to a general rule.
For comparison:
Each element in SR4 was defined in Core as being resisted with half Impact armor. There is no such text in SR5.
So by making your strikes count as a certain element you often enough reduce effective damage, when the target uses armor mods.
I'd like you to look at p.171. At the bottom you'll find a handy little table where it's spelled out explicitly that flame based weapons have AP 6
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Rapid Draw is .5 PP, vs Perfect Time 5 Karma. And the list of useful free actions is pretty long, vs. Rapid Draws specific uses. Adept Powers, Auto-injectors, turning on/off wireless, dropping prone, lots of things to be doing with multiple Free Actions per turn. Or extending a Mono-whip.... ;D . And Perfect Time continues to be useful after your weapon is out and you're stuck in.
You aren't reading my post.
What matters is not that you get an extra free action; you get that with the quality no matter what, and you can take the quality WITH Rapid Draw. What matters is that rapid draw lets you attack as a free action. Without it, you can only attack as a complex - which removes your ability to use simple actions.
Consider Round 1 as an adept.
You want to Run (I forgot to mention this in the guide, but never forget your ABC's: Always Be Charging). You want to draw your weapon. You want to attack. You want to use Agility Boost. You potentially want to use Adept Centering. Without anything else, that's a free, a complex, and three simples. The adept takes Perfect Time and Gear Access; now they can run and use both boosts...but they can't attack. A second adept takes Perfect TIme and Quick Draw. They now have two free's, two simples...and that complex is now a free action, allowing them to do all of it.
The ol' "critical glitch and you cut yourself" is a nasty draw back too for monowhips.
And before you say "yes but you can use Edge to re-roll" as a defense, I watched a character litterally kill themselves with a whip in a single game session. They rolled a critical glitch 4 times!!! (And had only 3 edge).
The randomness of dice just LOVE to fuck over you statistics counters.
Statistic improbability is statistic improbability. You remember the one time the dice glitched him hard with the monowhip (which I will note Edge can cancel out). You do not remember that it was the one time.
I discount the monowhip hitting yourself thing for the same reason I discount the sapphire knife shattering; if you're using that weapon, chances are you have specialized in it, and if you've specialized in it, you're looking at 14 dice minimum, at which point your chance to critically glitch is less then 1% - and remember, you need to CRITICALLY glitch to hit yourself.
No mention of martial arts? Also worth mentioning the diamond/ceramic blades as totally undetectable by scanners
Martial arts for the most part are not worth mentioning, sadly. There are a few good ones, but most have a far too high cost. I do mention the diamond/ceramic blades; check the section on knives.
Something to add to those options:
Adepts don't need (necessarily) strength: Nervestrike (B&B) disables a target with one or two strikes pretty reliably.
2 pairs of Striking Calluses increase your unarmed damage by 2 - and it stacks. Add Bone Density 4 and you have a completely legal +5 to damage.
Also, Hard Targets has introduced Plaststeel Toe Boots - legal knucks for your feet.
Light Body + Pouncing Dragon is another easy +2 to damage. Combine that with Jiao Di on a charge for another +1 (and while you are at it, combine it with a Flying Kick) and you have a +4 to damage
I mention Nervestrike and it's problems previously.
What you've mostly proven is that an adept can totally get great unarmed damage - so long as they buy 'ware, and thus stop being an adept and become a hybrid ;). Yes, there are a LOT of ways to stack unarmed damage with bioware (though I dare say any GM is going to veto combining the boots and the calluses, given that the boots cover up the calluses!). I will admit I did overlook Jiao Di and would add it in if I and when I go back and do a full edit of stuff. I'm not sure Light Body works with Pouncing Dragon though; it specifies you have to be standing above in some way, not just momentarily jumped.
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You want to Run (I forgot to mention this in the guide, but never forget your ABC's: Always Be Charging).
Skimmers + Broadsword = Talk about the lulz as you zip back and forth through the enemy ranks cleaving heads.
Combine with Centaur Liminal Chassis, and Digigrade legs for x12/x20 walk/run speeds.
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You'd hit one guy with the sword, then get shot to hell and back. Cover, and concealment are the way to survive.
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In an active fight your odds are not great of always having access to cover, your way better off with the reac+Int (+Combat Sense) Pool to keep range successes down or at least from stacking up extra damage, and then using armor to soak what gets through. Which does mean ya need to invest in solid armor, mystic armor though expensive does stack and can come in handy for this purpose. A great place to for a qi foci.
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You'd hit one guy with the sword, then get shot to hell and back. Cover, and concealment are the way to survive.
Running literally gives the same penalties to hit you as partial cover (+2). Full cover is just +2 more.
Also, something I forgot to mention, another bonus to the high strength needed to go melee: it also allows you to bulk up in extra armor!
It's worth noting that having only a gun and being attacked in melee is a terrible situation to be in. They get +2 to attack you right off because ABC. And you get -2 to hit them for the same reason. Then you get another -3 for being in melee combat against ANYONE you try to shoot, so -5 to hit the person swinging their axe in your face. To top it all off, so long as you're in melee, you have -3 to defense against someone shooting at you because you're too busy trying not to get an axe in your skull. Also, though this is GM dependent, many would rule being attacked like this pops you out of cover, so you lose that.
In short, if you go melee and attack someone, they a) are real unlikely to hit you, and b) are real likely to get finished off by whoever on your team goes next. And then you keep your defense bonus from the charge.
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@ProfessorCirno
Another word on nerve strike: Don't underestimate it's usefulness even if you don't manage to disable your opponent in one hit: If you target agility, you impose a serious dice penalty on all his attacks. Especially against tanks that's often a better solution than to punch through their armor. If you compare it to wound modifiers, the nerve strike will usually come out ahead - especially if you consider the low opportunity costs.
This looses value against dodge monkeys of course. But those are hard to hit with everything else too (that's what grenades are for)
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In an active fight your odds are not great of always having access to cover, your way better off with the reac+Int (+Combat Sense) Pool to keep range successes down or at least from stacking up extra damage, and then using armor to soak what gets through. Which does mean ya need to invest in solid armor, mystic armor though expensive does stack and can come in handy for this purpose. A great place to for a qi foci.
Also with high initiative so you can activate total defense and ideally total defense (agile defender). With agile defender adding agility that can easily push your defense pool into the high teens. Which combined with a decent soak pool, will let you soak a lot of shots and damage as you run around cutting down the opposition.
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For the Centaur Liminal Body option - I would point out the four cyberlegs, which each can provide +3 armor, the chassis itself (which should be +3 armor as well). And the fact that with a 120 meters run speed, you can possibly get out of sight after the charge. So you've got a bonus 15 armor, about 13 armor base, add in +6 armor at least, for 34+Body soak.
Give it a good Reaction + Intuition + Running dodge, possibly with a Full Defense and Agile Defender and you've got something like 17 dodge, at least.
Sure, you might be a little gimmicky, but isn't it also just precious? Also, combine with a gun with a bayonet for being able to blast them while you run away and towards them.
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Mm, slag cyber limb..... Or just high up mages with stunbolts. Every dodge/tanks money's worst nightmare.
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Mm, slag cyber limb..... Or just high up mages with stunbolts. Every dodge/tanks money's worst nightmare.
Everything, after all, has to have a counter. Although that's why you get Cyber Singularity Seeker for +1 Willpower per pair of cyber limbs. And be a Nartaki. A Nartaki with a Centaur Liminal Body and four cyberarms.
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Mm, slag cyber limb..... Or just high up mages with stunbolts. Every dodge/tanks money's worst nightmare.
Mages in general are everyone's nightmare.
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That would add +8 to will. I don't think that is legal, with the augmentation max being +4.
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That would add +8 to will. I don't think that is legal, with the augmentation max being +4.
Per pair of cyberlimbs. Of course, Cyber Singularity Seeker caps itself at +2, so, you know. :)
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Mm, slag cyber limb..... Or just high up mages with stunbolts. Every dodge/tanks money's worst nightmare.
Slag cyberlimb probably won't be very effective (not with the high object resistance and general armor and structure rating of a cyber-centaur)
@Taking cover vs. running
SR 5 made an in my opinion quite sensible design decision in that you are almost always better advised to go on the offensive instead of digging in. That keeps the game flowing and melee fighters aren't made totally obsolete.
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I'd like you to look at p.171. At the bottom you'll find a handy little table where it's spelled out explicitly that flame based weapons have AP 6
Except that it's labeled Fire Armor Penetration and not Armor Penetration, which is obviously not the same.
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Go full cyber is more fun with melee.
Metatype: C - Ork (0)
Attributes: B - 20 Attributes
Special: E - Mundane
Skills: D - 22 Skills
Resources: A - 450,000¥
Buy negative qualities to gain 25 Karma
10 Karma to ¥
30 Karma to rise CHA, LOG, EDGE to 2
10 Karma for any utility skills
BOD: 5
AGI: 6 (9)
REA: 5 (7)
STR: 7 (10)
CHA: 2
INT: 5
LOG: 2
WIL: 3
EDGE: 2
Unarmed, Sneak, Throwing 7 (6+specialize)
Perception 1
2x [Alpha] Obvious Cyber Foot
- Bulk 1
- Armor 1
- Skimmers
[Used] Muscle Toner 3
[Used] Muscle Augmentation 3
[Used] Bone Density 4
[Used] Orthoskin 4
Striking Callus 4
Synaptic Booster 2
Reflex Recorder (Unarmed)
For Armor
Sleeping Tiger
Synergist Business Line Long Coat
Ballistic Mask + Helmet + PPP Arms, Legs, Vitals + Forearm Guards
Still have around 48,000¥ to buy other stuffs
15P with 18 dices for his punch, 12 + 3D6 initiative, 30 Armor, 39 resist damage, can run (hover) 72 meters in 1 combat turn.
And he looks all normal (?) well, aside for dressing like a jackass and doesn't wear shoes, of course.
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can run (hover) 72 meters in 1 combat turn.
Which, as we all know, is a cool 54 miles per hour - which means you don't really need a car in most cases. You can just book it.
Ballistic Mask + Helmet + PPP Arms, Legs, Vitals + Forearm Guards
Sadly, it's been clarified (somewhere) that you can't stack the Ballistic Mask with the Helmet. If you want to do that, you should just take a full Helmet instead of a partial helmet. I'd also rule that you can't use the Vitals kit with the Sleeping Tiger/Synergist Business Line Longcoat.
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Sadly, it's been clarified (somewhere) that you can't stack the Ballistic Mask with the Helmet. If you want to do that, you should just take a full Helmet instead of a partial helmet. I'd also rule that you can't use the Vitals kit with the Sleeping Tiger/Synergist Business Line Longcoat.
That I have to dispute. A Mask is no problem if you combine it with a military style helmet. (Source: Have worn (gas)mask+helmet with no problem and there is no printed rule against it)
PPP Arms and Forearm guards are a bigger problem.
Stacking armor is one of the few other benefits high strength characters get. There is no (balance) reason to be restrictive.
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SR helmets including military ones fully enclose the head.
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Sadly, it's been clarified (somewhere) that you can't stack the Ballistic Mask with the Helmet. If you want to do that, you should just take a full Helmet instead of a partial helmet. I'd also rule that you can't use the Vitals kit with the Sleeping Tiger/Synergist Business Line Longcoat.
That I have to dispute. A Mask is no problem if you combine it with a military style helmet. (Source: Have worn (gas)mask+helmet with no problem and there is no printed rule against it)
Does a ballistic mask stack with a helmet? (Run & Gun, pg. 74)
No, you may only wear one or the other.
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@Marcus
Source?
Otherwise I'll point you to the art on p.74 Run&Gun
Art is of course not a good argument, but I find it highly unlikely that there are only enclosed helmets to be had. For one thing it would be impractical for a lot of purposes like rock climbing or at a construction site.
@falar
Ah, you are referring to missions. That's a whole other case then. I'm talking about normal SR with all printed options available
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@falar
Ah, you are referring to missions. That's a whole other case then. I'm talking about normal SR with all printed options available
For a lot of things, Missions is treated as equivalent to official errata. For example:
What are stats used for the spear found in the Magic Spear package? (Run Faster, pg. 252)
Spear, Acc 5, Reach 3, Damage (STR + 3)P, AP -2
See also, the actual stats for the Ultimax Rain Forest Carbine.
This is one of the areas that I would treat Missions FAQ as official errata. And I'd tell the player to just get a full Helmet (+3) instead of the normal Helmet (+2) if they want a higher armor count.
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Nope. I fear we'll have to disagree on this point.
Missing or falsely printed stuff is one thing, but missions restrict quite a lot of other options too that are ok in normal play. Code of honor as just one example from the top of my head.
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Nope. I fear we'll have to disagree on this point.
Agree to disagree. I would count this as a missing thing. Ballistic mask is missing a line, "You cannot wear a Ballistic Mask in combination with a helmet." But, yeah, different table, different rules.
Do you agree that full helmets and Ballistic Masks stacking is right out though?
To clarify - full helmet is the helmet from Full Body Armor, Hardened Mil-Spec Battle Armor, Security Armor and SWAT Armor.
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Yes, i suspect that some armor piece are not compatible. (PPP vitals with some armor, PPP arms with Forearm Guard, Ballistic Mask with any Helmet)
In this case, pick up ballistic shield instead.
Totally not look suspicious at all !! 8)
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PPP arms with Forearm Guard
I actually don't have a problem with this. It looks dorky as crap, but I don't see a reason why you couldn't strap the arms kit over the forearm guards.
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@falar
Full helmets are part of full body armor (I count mil-spec armors in that set). Those state explicitly that you can't wear other armor add-ons (beside shields).
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Actually only the MilSpec hardened armor has the line about what stacks with it and the PPP line says what they stack with and what they don't. I don't think the PPP vitals stacks with Sleeping Tiger, but doesn't list it in the book. Full and SWAT have the full helmets that allows chem seals, but otherwise don't restricted add-ons. I also don't agree with no face mask and regular helmet (not the +3 version), but I also have issues with players using the full helmet with armors other than the one it is designed to come with. My table let's ballistic masks stack with the +2 helmet but only the +3 version is compatible with full armors and the precious Chem seal. When it comes to stacking armor I have bigger issues with cyberlimb cheese than armor mods and dealing with encumbrance.
Besides, IRL versions of ballistics masks are combined with helmets, depending on the version used.
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When it comes to stacking armor I have bigger issues with cyberlimb cheese
Just because I took a Centaur Liminal Body and two cyberarms for a total of +21 armor doesn't mean anything's wrong! The system is working as designed!
21 = +3 per limb (4 legs + 2 arms) and +3 for torso-y bits of the body.
Add Sleeping Tiger + Synergist Longcoat + helmet for 39 before body. Add at least one Body and you have enough to auto-soak 10 damage!
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Nothing wrong, mechanically, just screams cheese and makes me want to use Sec Guards using lasers, vindicators, HMGs, and Barretts (with bullseye trick shots) loaded with either ADPS or Depleted Uranium rounds. Why, because that much cheese needs some chuncky bits to go with it.
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Nothing wrong, mechanically, just screams cheese and makes me want to use Sec Guards using lasers, vindicators, HMGs, and Barretts (with bullseye trick shots) loaded with either ADPS or Depleted Uranium rounds. Why, because that much cheese needs some chuncky bits to go with it.
Pate.
Its "cheese and pate" on crackers....
Your armor is the cracker, you body is the pate (after the GM is done with you) and the cheese is your rediculous armor stacking. :P
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Nothing wrong, mechanically, just screams cheese and makes me want to use Sec Guards using lasers, vindicators, HMGs, and Barretts (with bullseye trick shots) loaded with either ADPS or Depleted Uranium rounds. Why, because that much cheese needs some chuncky bits to go with it.
Pate.
Its "cheese and pate" on crackers....
Your armor is the cracker, you body is the pate (after the GM is done with you) and the cheese is your rediculous armor stacking. :P
Mmm, lunch time! :P
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@Marcus
Source?
If you like pictures I'll point you to 66 and 67 of the R&G (Which are the models for the Hardened Mil-Spec armor) But I agree it's not a great precedent.
Source is that security and Higher Level armor are intend for full containment, including protecting vs Chem and Bio type weapons. Which is discussed in the CORE, which means they have to be Sealed, and that means fully enclosed and sealed helmets.
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No argument there. But we are talking also about the cheap 100 NY helmet and not only about the full body armor stuff who come with the option of a chemical seal which of course has to be a closed helmet.
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No argument there. But we are talking also about the cheap 100 NY helmet and not only about the full body armor stuff who come with the option of a chemical seal which of course has to be a closed helmet.
As I understand it the cheapest variants are all basically visored motorcycle helmets, according the core. My argument coming from the fact that they are all intended to take imagelink tech. Now I'm sure stats for an open faced helmet that would stack with the Mask can be found, but at that point they should be basically the same as the stats for a milspec helmet less the hermetic seals.
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Or they can be fluff as bicycle helmets with either a small lenses for the eyes or whatever you want to describe it as. Heck, even military helmets (modern) have straps to attach vision gear too. Having a gas-mask or ballistic mask fit under them.
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What matters is not that you get an extra free action; you get that with the quality no matter what, and you can take the quality WITH Rapid Draw. What matters is that rapid draw lets you attack as a free action. Without it, you can only attack as a complex - which removes your ability to use simple actions.
This in itself can completely fuck up the action economy and tilt the whole argument against guns.
Free Actions (shadowrun 163)
Free Actions are relatively simple, nearly automatic actions that require little effort to accomplish. Examples are saying a word, dropping an object, gesturing, or walking. A character may take one Free Action during his own
Action Phase or at some later point in the Initiative Pass. A character may only take a Free Action prior to his first Action Phase in the Initiative Pass if they are not surprised (see Surprise, p. 192). Only one Free Action is normally allowed per Initiative Pass, but multiple Free Actions could be allowed by the gamemaster if the situation seems reasonable(dropping an object and speaking a phrase). Free Actions generally require no Success Test,though special circumstances may warrant one.
Throw Weapon (page 166)
A character may throw a ready throwing weapon (see
Ready Weapon, p. 165) by taking a Simple Action. The
character may not take any other attack actions in the
same Action Phase. Multiple readied throwing weapons
can be thrown at a target within Short or Medium
range by adding a Multiple Attacks Free Action (see
Multiple Attacks, p. 196).
It seems to me off putting that you would be better then a gun man at ranged with your shuirken, because you mess up the action economy: your action phase: ready throwing weapons, throw weapon (save your free action)
in your enemy's action phase: you know what free action: ready and throw another shuriken/grenade before he gets a chance to act (or at the same time)... I mean I like boosting something as adept just like the next guy 8), but if rapid draw is that good, why waste it on your own turn, where you already can attack normally, no do extra damage on the opponents turn.... It gets outright ridiculous if you use a motion sensor grenade on your opponents IP.
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For some reason, this makes me think of a character who has a dozen knives that he just quick-draws, attacks, and drops.
Signature - cheap knives laying around everywhere.
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There are always ways to mess with action economy. Finishing blow, Counter attack, various actions that mess with oppo init. There's nothing wrong with those concepts, they just tend to be very specialized. Risk vs reward that's life.
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First off, I really appreciate this guide. How would you guys rate the oni metavariant? I've always had a soft spot for them, and the increased agility with decent improvements in body and strength really appeal to me as well.
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I would rate the oni slightly more optimal than orks in general, but slightly suboptimal for the more specialized role of close combat, where the boost to Agility doesn't quite mitigate the hit to Body and Strength. Still a very viable choice, though.