Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: kyoto kid on <11-02-15/1836:01>

Title: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: kyoto kid on <11-02-15/1836:01>
...I've been involved in a missions group for the last several months and looking to introduce a new character.

...well...

...actually a 5E version of one I had run back in the 1E - 3E days. As new characters for missions campaigns must enter play at starting level (the original had effectively reached Prime Runner status over all the years I played her) it was time to start from square one again.

Kyoto Kid "The Rootin' Tootin' Bushido Cowgirl".

Given name : Kelly Rourke

Race: human

Archetype, Gunslinger Adept

Origin: Portland TT

Current residence: Chicago Metroplex.

Age 19, Height:: 4'11" Hair: White,  Eyes: Crystal Blue, Complexion: *see below*

Priorities

Attributes
Body:Agility:6
Reaction:5 (7)  Strength:5
Willpower:Intuition:5
Logic:2 Charisma:2

Figured Statistics
Initiative: 9 (11) + 1d6(3d6)  VR ColdN/AVR HotN/A
Mental Limit:5Physical Limit:7Social Limit5
Physical Boxes:10Stun Boxes:11Overflow5
Magic: 5 (4)Edge:2Essence:5.24

Qualities/Karma Expenditures (Unspent: 3)

Augmentations
Cyber
Bioware
Genemods



Adept Powers - Power Points: 4

Skills
- Active Skills -
Blades 6 (Swords)Pool: 12 (14)Mods: none Total Pool 12 (14)
Etiquette 2 (Street)Pool: 4 (6)Mods: None (+2)Total Pool 4 (6)
Longarms 6 (Sniper Rifles)Pool: 12 (14)Mods: Smartlink +2Total Pool 14 (16)
Perception 6 (Visual)Pool: 11 (13)Mods: Quality +1 Tetrachromatic Vision +3 (visual)Total Pool 12 (17)
Pistols 6 (Revolvers)Pool: 12 (14)Mods: Smartlink  (+2)Total Pool 14 (16)
Sneak 6 (Urban)Pool: 12 (14)Mods: Quality (+2)Total Pool 14 (16)
Computer 1Pool: 3Mods: none Total Pool 3

Skill Group: Athletics 5
Gymnastics 5 Pool: 11Mods: Quality (+2)Total Pool 13
Running5 Pool: 10Mods: Quality (+2)Total Pool 12
Swimming 5 Pool: 10Mods: noneTotal Pool 10

- Knowledge Skills -

Identity

Contacts

Weapons

Armor

Total Armour 16 (18 W/Orthoskin)

Electronics

Miscellaneous Gear

Drugs & BTLs

Many thanks to Falar for showing me how to set up the format.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Hobbes on <11-02-15/1911:34>
Mystic Armor is way overpriced, I'd swap that for anything else.  Critical Strike Blades?  'nother level of Agility boost?

I'd also drop either Willpower *or* Body to 3 and pump Int/Str to 5.

Laser Sight on the Warhawk.  Balistic Mask with 'Trodes. 
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: kyoto kid on <11-02-15/2058:53>
...interesting points.

For someone who frequently goes into HTH combat and firefights, I see Body as being very important. Not only does it affect one's physical condition track, but overflow, "soak roll" (which for her is a base of 24), and determining just how much armour she can pile on before she takes negative modifiers on all her combat skill pools. 

Mystic armour is costly I'll admit, but one can never have too much armour in my book, especially when the oppos are using high powered assault or sniper rifles. It can mean the difference between taking stun, physical damage, or even being down for the count in one shot as the power of the attack (not just the base DV of the weapon) needs to exceed the modified (by weapon AP) armour to score physical damage. In many of the Missions I've been involved in (with a different character), having a net of 14 - 15 armour seems to be the "breakpoint." between taking stun or physical damage. Stun heals a lot faster than physical, especially when the group doesn't have a mage with a heal spell or someone with first aid (also keep in mind that being an Awakened character reduces the first aid/biotech pool by -2).

As she has no combat skills that rely on Strength (Unarmed or Archery), there is little point to raising that attribute to 5 as with the reduction in body, it does not increase her physical limit.  Willpower is important. for it affects her Composure test (necessary when facing down a manifested spirit with her weapon focus). It is also the only defence one has against combat Mana spells like Stunball or Manabolt as well l as being important to resist addiction (she does use combat drugs as well as a weapon focus).

I could see trading off one point of body for intuition for it increases her initiative and aids in perception tests, even though it drops the physical monitor by one box as well as the overflow damage by 1. This would allow her to trade off the Enhanced Perception power for the Critical Strike Power. without compromising her armour.

Yeah trodes would make sense as they are not expensive, the mask still has capacity (only have vision mag), and they don't increase the availability. This would allow her to use the wireless bonus for her visual aids (allowing the rating 2 Vision Enhancement in her contacts to also add to her sight perception pool). The other bonus, she still has enough starting resources to install a smartlink system in the mask as well as modify her Warhawk internally giving her a total accuracy of 9 and +1 die to her attack with her favourite six shooter.   Good suggestion there.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: ZeldaBravo on <11-02-15/2205:30>
No Combat Sense? Why?
Always being able to roll a Perception test when ambushed seems super useful.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Danny Montanny on <11-02-15/2338:25>
Acrobatic Defender is doing absolutely nothing for you. Replacing 5 dice from Will with 2 dice from Gymnastics, and throwing on a limit? Even Agile Defender would only net you 1 more die when you go Full Defense. Weather that one die would be worth the 3 Karma is up to you.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Wakshaani on <11-02-15/2358:22>
Always glad to see ol' KK up and running!

Welcome back!
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: gradivus on <11-03-15/0011:03>
I'd switch reaction and intuitiion...4(6) and 5 vs what you got now. Same initiative but increases your dice pool for intuition based skills (which you have0 while decreasing reaction based skill dice pool (of which you have none).

Uness there's been an errata I like the MarlinX71 over the Springfield 2002.

And ditto on one level of combat sense.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Glyph on <11-03-15/0129:54>
You might think about replacing Acrobatic Defender with Ambidexterity, which is always a useful quality for a character who might want a melee weapon in one hand, and a gun in the other.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: kyoto kid on <11-03-15/0148:24>
Acrobatic Defender is doing absolutely nothing for you. Replacing 5 dice from Will with 2 dice from Gymnastics, and throwing on a limit? Even Agile Defender would only net you 1 more die when you go Full Defense. Weather that one die would be worth the 3 Karma is up to you.
...I get it now, so you don't add your acrobatic pool, just the base skill rating.  Still new to SR5 (last played 3rd ed) and this is helping me figure out the nuances. That gives a few more Karma back and she'd still have a decent dice pool for full defence (and another reason to keep her Willpower at 5).

Thanks
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: kyoto kid on <11-03-15/0200:58>
No Combat Sense? Why?
Always being able to roll a Perception test when ambushed seems super useful.
....I considered it but ran out of points as Improved reflexes still eats up a lot of MA. I'd probably have to swap out one of the Improved Ability powers (most likely Pistols) to get at least one level.  So then, just having the power (at whatever rating, even 1) gives you the ability to roll the perception test?
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: kyoto kid on <11-03-15/0207:11>
Always glad to see ol' KK up and running!

Welcome back!
...thanks.  Yeah been out of the loop for a while until some friends convinced me to show up at one of the local Missions sessions a few months ago.  Got turned off by 4th ed so I quit playing.  Of what I've seen so far 5th is definitely a big improvement.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: kyoto kid on <11-03-15/0208:17>
I'd switch reaction and intuitiion...4(6) and 5 vs what you got now. Same initiative but increases your dice pool for intuition based skills (which you have0 while decreasing reaction based skill dice pool (of which you have none).

Uness there's been an errata I like the MarlinX71 over the Springfield 2002.

And ditto on one level of combat sense.
...that would work were she not a starting character. As such at Chargen only one attribute can be at racial maximum and her Agility is already 6.

While the Marlin X71 has a better AP it's accuracy rating is only 5. The Springfeild has an accuracy of 9 and with custom grip that goes to 10. Load that baby up with APDS and AP is -6.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: kyoto kid on <11-03-15/0231:03>
You might think about replacing Acrobatic Defender with Ambidexterity, which is always a useful quality for a character who might want a melee weapon in one hand, and a gun in the other.
...Katanas are usually wielded 2 handed (at least that's what I understand), so she wouldn't have an off hand for a second weapon.  Wouldn't she need the Close Quarters Firearms technique (Gun Kata) to use a pistol in melee?  Also she'd have to split her pool as well (not sure how that would work using both a firearm and a blade).
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: kyoto kid on <11-03-15/0321:47>
...OK so here's one possibility,

I swap out Improved Ability Pistols for one level of Combat Sense This leaves both of her base gun skill pools at 12 (14) which is still pretty decent (with the smart link and trodes in the ballistic mask she is 13 (15) with the Ruger).  I then add a Qi focus (force 2 bonded for 4 Karma) for an additional level of Combat Sense which will add 2 dice to defence tests (giving her a full defence pool of 19) and the ability to make a Perception test to notice a potential surprise situation. I then would add the Perceptive II quality (10 Karma) which increases her pool for perception tests to 12 (modified for visual perception by her contacts giving her a total of 14 dice to spot potential trouble).

Thoughts?

Wondering though, where her Danger Sense power comes into play in all this.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <11-03-15/1045:06>
Try a rebuild with A attributes, B Skills, C Adept, D Meta (human), E resources. Using karma to money and negatives to help buy back needed karma. It should help fill out your active skills better.

Generally having 3 maxed out attack options is bad. Have a primary and one back up. Dropping long arms can get you running(sprinting) 3(5) and acrobatics 3. Swimming is generally not needed.

Strength adds to base damage before net hits. Higher base damage help when dealing with high armor. While high body and will are good, actual boxes only show up at every odd number.
 
Sadly, you can't stack SecurityTec PPP Vitals with an armored jacket. You might get away with the forearm guards. If nothing else, they have higher capacity for mods.

Danger sense is generally crap, bonus to surprise test equal to rank. 1 rank of combat sense adds rank to defense pool and first lvl also grants free perception test before surprise test, pass that get +3 dice to surprise tests.

Enhanced Accuracy when using most blades is not need yet, even with pool of 17, especially with already using custum grip. Acc 9 is only going to be reliably hit around dice pool of 27ish.

 Critical Strike adds +1 to DV to what ever close skill group you pick, your case blades.

Improve ability is how you raise your perception skill by max rank equal to skill x .5. There is no enhanced perception ability for adepts.

Why did you also max out longarms, but not acrobatics? Use your group for something somewhat useful and possibly flavorful with a cowgirl, like outdoors group.

Vision mag is also needed.

Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: ZeldaBravo on <11-03-15/1053:49>
Swimming is generally not needed.
Until you need to swim  ::)
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <11-03-15/1055:49>
Then go with 3/3/1 or buy it with some karma. Also depends on where your campaign is set in. Honestly, anyone swimming in body armor with gear is boned.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: kyoto kid on <11-03-15/1647:06>
Try a rebuild with A attributes, B Skills, C Adept, D Meta (human), E resources. Using karma to money and negatives to help buy back needed karma. It should help fill out your active skills better.

Generally having 3 maxed out attack options is bad. Have a primary and one back up. Dropping long arms can get you running(sprinting) 3(5) and acrobatics 3. Swimming is generally not needed.

Strength adds to base damage before net hits. Higher base damage help when dealing with high armor. While high body and will are good, actual boxes only show up at every odd number.
 
Sadly, you can't stack SecurityTec PPP Vitals with an armored jacket. You might get away with the forearm guards. If nothing else, they have higher capacity for mods.

Danger sense is generally crap, bonus to surprise test equal to rank. 1 rank of combat sense adds rank to defense pool and first lvl also grants free perception test before surprise test, pass that get +3 dice to surprise tests.

Enhanced Accuracy when using most blades is not need yet, even with pool of 17, especially with already using custum grip. Acc 9 is only going to be reliably hit around dice pool of 27ish.

 Critical Strike adds +1 to DV to what ever close skill group you pick, your case blades.

Improve ability is how you raise your perception skill by max rank equal to skill x .5. There is no enhanced perception ability for adepts.

Why did you also max out longarms, but not acrobatics? Use your group for something somewhat useful and possibly flavorful with a cowgirl, like outdoors group.

Vision mag is also needed.
...interesting suggestions, let me take them point by point.

1.  Taking resources at E would give her next to nothing in starting gear, (no Weapon Focus, no Qi Focus and a Street Lifestyle, the latter which would put her at a disadvantage right form the outset as she'd have to roll a fatigue test (3) at the start of every day)  As is I had to juggle things around a bit even with 50,000 in resources (adding 5 Karma to that as well).  I also have to look at the fact she'd be coming into play with others who have earned a lot of Karma and nuyen over the months and would be woefully outclassed with basically only a normal Katana, Armoured Jacket and a Pistol (kind of like a level 1 character in D&D joining a group  of level 6s so I need to pump her up as much as possible under the chargen limits).

Priority C for an Adept would only give her only a 4 Magic attribute (as well as only a rating 2 in one skill as opposed to 4 - which I used for her Blades skill) which means she would have to spend two special or regular attribute or points to get it back to 6.

2.  Not having a decent long range attack at all, as is the case with my current Face character, has been a more of a liability for the rest of the team she ends up with. Bows are just too unwieldy (and the DV best she can get is 7P with  5 strength compared to 10 - 12 P with a rifle which fits her "Cowgirl/Annie Oakley" side better). Longarms also lets her pick up a combat shotgun which can be pretty bad a**. As her gymnastics and running are part of a skill group, she can only use starting Karma to increase it, not skill points (requiring spending 19 Karma for the suggestions above 6 to raise each to 3 and 7 for the specialisation of sprinting)  So taking them from Longarms and/or Pistols would not help. The best skills for the point swap would be her Sneaking and/or Perception.

3. [face palm] OK that was a ""Doh!"  moment on my part. I'll have to see what I can do there, maybe shifting one point from REA to STR..

4. Again, unfamiliarity with 5E (even though it does stack in the Chummer generator).  That drops the armour by only 1 (all the more to keep the Mystic Armour power).

5. Danger Sense is a bonus from her Mentor Spirit as is one level of improved accuracy. The mentor spirit (Dragon Slayer) I chose also fits her concept the best since in Missions, the Code of Honour quality is not permitted (don't understand why).  Also, as per my previous post, I found a way to give her 2 ranks of Combat Sense taking out the using a Qi focus and adding another rating in exchange for her Improved Perception power (she has gear based vision perception enhancement that adds to her pool with the wireless bonus to compensate). With both, that would give her 5 bonus dice to surprise tests if she succeeds at her Perception test, or 2 if she doesn't.

6.  Believe  it or not, I have exceeded limits in successes on more than just a few occasions.  For example My Face has a base limit of 11 and I've rolled more than that in successes for Negotiation and Con tests many times.  Like having a bigger power supply in a computer, it's nice to have that "overhead"

7.  My bad again, I thought critical strike was like penetrating strike but for weapons. So with a Strength of 5 that would give her +2  DV with Blades (9 DV with her Katana). that is pretty tough.

8.  That was a typo, I meant "Improved Perception".

9.  Again Acrobatics was from the skill group chosen and would have taken a lot of starting Karma to increase to 6. other than straight dodging it really doesn't come into play in most combat. Part of her concept is also an old west  "sharpshooter" so a high longarms skill does make sense.  As most of the Missions occur in an urban setting, outdoors skills would be pretty useless. She may love playing the part but she's still pretty much an "Urban Cowgirl".

10.  She has Vision Mag as an added visual enhancement to her Ballistic mask  Did I forget to note it?

Finally, one of the rules in the group is that we are allowed to make changes and tweaks to the starting character during the first three weeks/sessions they are actively played. So this is not set in stone yet.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: kyoto kid on <11-03-15/1728:13>
...OK the short list with the changes I made  (including gear that was changed)

Priorities: unchanged

Attributes: BOD: 4, AGI: 6 REA: 4 STR: 5 INT: 5 CHA: 2 LOG: 2 WIL: 5 EDG: 3 MAG: 6 ESS: 6

Figured Stats INI: 11 + 3d6 (12 +4d6 using Cram)
Limits: Physical: 7, Mental: 5, Social: 5, Astral: 5
Physical Boxes: 10 Stun Boxes: 11

Qualities/Karma Expenditures (3 Karma unspent)
5: Mentor Spirit
7:  Natural Athlete
10: Perceptive II
10: Logic 1 > 2
4: Qi Focus Power 2
6: Weapon Focus Power 2
5: Resources (+10,000)
-8: Albinism II
-5: Prejudice (Common, Biased - Elves)
-12: Sensitive System

Skills:

Blades (Swords) 13 Pool: 13 (15), [Weapon Focus 2: 15 (17)]
Etiquette: (Street) 1 Pool: 5 (7) (2 from Mentor Spirit)
Longarms (Long Range): 5 Pool: 11 (13)
Perception: 6  Pool: 13 (2 from Perception II quality)
Pistols (Revolvers) 5 Pool: 11 (13) [Smartlink 12 (14)]
Sneaking: (Urban) 4 Pool 10 (12)

Skill Group Athletics 2 (all +2 from Natural Athlete Quality)
-pools-
Gymnastics: 10
Running:  9
Swimming: 7

Adept Powers (6PP):

Attribute Boost 2
Combat Sense 2 (1 from Qi Focus 2)
Critical Strike - Blades
Danger Sense 2 (1 from Mentor Spirit)
Enhanced Accuracy - Pistols (from Mentor Spirit)
Improved Ability - Blades 1
Improved Reflexes 2
Improved Sense - Low Light Vision
Mystic Armour: 2

Gear Notes :

Weapon Focus 2 (Katana)
Qi Focus 2 - Combat Sense (Tattoo)

Ballistic Mask:
-Trodes,
-Smartlink
-Imagelink
-Respirator 6
-Vision Mag

Contacts
-Flare Comp
-Vision Enhancement 2
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Halinn on <11-03-15/1804:43>
Instead of having both pistols and longarms, consider just getting automatics. Machine pistols are the same size as heavy pistols, and assault rifles have good range, even if it's not quite as extreme as sniper rifles can go.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <11-03-15/2154:10>
Helin hit my point about redundant skills better. Actually, no you can get the skills I mentioned by dropping long arms completely and use those 7 points for running 3, gymnastics 3, swimming 1 at no karma cost, then use the group skills for outdoors.

 As to using E resources, I have done it and still had enough for a force 4 Qi foci ( improved attribute: str). You just don't get to start with everything, but you should earn enough back relatively easily. Getting karma for the skills you need is not as easy, plus you will want to initiate, rase stats, etc.


I can for understand fitting with a character concept, but sometimes thsy dont survive edition chages. If you can stomach automatics, they are machanically speaking it is generally considered better than long arms and equal to pistols. Plus only group to cover close to mid range in one skills, as well as relatively easily concealable weapons (heavy pistols) to automatic rifles. Plus, having automatics frees (if you drop both long arms and pistols) 14 skill points. Letting you pick up some extra skills to expand you're options outside of combat. Currently you are looking a lot like D&D's fighter class. You can hit stuff, but not much else outside of combat.

Also, smartlink only adds +2 dice if you have it installed in either your eye or in you cybereye. You have no 'ware, so it only adds +1 die.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: kyoto kid on <11-04-15/0426:02>
....just took KK through a play test of a Mission that was designed for 150 karma Prime Runner characters (didn't count towards the standard missions Karma/nuyen awards), and she not only held her own but was quite effective (especially when the big bad spirit showed up). Considering what we were up against, I think she would do very well in the standard missions that are run.

I might change out the type of rifle she uses for one that has SA mode and better ammo capacity, but I still am looking to stay as close to the original concept as possible.

I'm aware that gear based Smartlinks only add 1 die to the pool (that's the way it's been since 1st ed), however, they also now increase the accuracy by 2 if the gun is internally modified.

True, playing a total "concept character" is more challenging, but it also can be a lot of fun as well and that is what I'm in this for.  She's done pretty good so far through the last four editions, after tonight,  I feel she'll handle 5th just as well. Yes she is more tightly focused, but that occurs in the real world as well, I don't see an issue with that in a fictional one.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <11-04-15/0746:53>
Nevermind I understand how you wrote that now. Yeah, there are some better sporting rifles and EBR Crockett is one of the best sniper rifles, outside of stuff in R&G. Glad she works for you.

Edited for clarity.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Whiskeyjack on <11-04-15/0835:26>
Re mystic armor - soak is cheap as hell in this game. Don't pay with PP if you can buy it with nuyen. Mystic Armor 2 is a waste of PP and you can easily find stuff granting 2 soak elsewhere.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Jack_Spade on <11-04-15/0851:32>
Jupp. Attribute Boost Body is usually a better investment (although you have to activate it)
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <11-04-15/1141:08>
Actually even that is not that great, use a simple action and take drain to raise soak pool by about 1-2 point on average. Nah, would rather either waste PP for permanent armor or just get armor mods like WhiskeyJack said, such as PPP line of gear and forearm guards.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Whiskeyjack on <11-04-15/1400:01>
Avoiding getting hit >>>> soak.

Combat Sense and/or stuff like Too Pretty to Hit, Agile Defender, and taking advantage of cover, or hit debuffs (Chaotic World, Hot Potato) are much better investments.

My MysAd face has Combat Sense 6 and Too Pretty to Hit and I have never ever regretted having those.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <11-04-15/1509:24>
But neglecting soak is not a smart idea either. But agile defender has saved my melee adept's crazy a$$ multiple times. My high armor at first, saved me, but as our runs are getting harder, AP is becoming higher and leaning on armor is less and less wise.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: kyoto kid on <11-04-15/1753:31>
..I actually have a face character with To Pretty To Hit, Saved her bacon a number of times. It really is only good though if you have a high Charisma (that character has an 8 while KK' is only 2). Agile Defender only gives her one additional die for 3 Karma in full defence.  Not sure if Attribute Boost - Agility would affect that pool as well.  She  was able to clean dodge even burst fire with just the WIL bonus (again a good reason for being fast as you only lose 10 from your total initiative and the results of the test the rest of the combat turn so if you still have an action after that you can return the favour). 

Yeah really saw the usefulness of both Attribute Boost and Combat Sense last night. Danger sense also did come into play as well, adding another 2 dice to her surprise roll (for a total of 5).

Another big help was Cram: +1d6/+1 REA for several hours. That extra die of initiative was so nice. and the risk of addiction not all that bad. We had another character with Synaptic Boosting 3 who used it as well giving her 5 dice to roll.  I don't think she ever rolled under a 30 initiative.

I agree that not getting hit (and/or taking your opponent down before he gets a chance shoot/hit you) is the best way to survive, but again it isn't a gimmie so armour is always a good thing. There really isn't a better way for her to increase her armour though gear at this time as it is just too expensive.  The best setup (which I am considering when she gets a job or two under her belt) is Sleeping Tiger with a Vashon Synergist overcoat (16 total as they both stack). The only other way is through 'ware (Orthoskin or Smartskin) but then she sacrifices a full point of MA and powers which also reduces her pool for Attribute Boosting and begins her on a journey down "Burnout Road".  I also really can't see her clunking around in Sec or SWAT armour (which would also easily attract the attention of the Star or KE).

As to that spirit, in one blow she put a major world of hurt on it taking it down 8 boxes (out of 12).  Weapon foci are very nice in this respect.  This makes it worth bumping the resources to "D". 

I tried building her using the priorities Rift_0f_Bladz suggested and even dumping 10 Karma into resources, did not have enough to get her weapon focus after armour, guns, commlink Decent ID & licences (both important for avoiding issues with the authorities), and Lifestyle (just don't see her living in a back alley or squat).  The other issue was I actually couldn't think of skills that fit the character with that many skill and skill group points.  For something like a Social Adept/Face, then yes, it would work as you need a diverse number of skills. and could take the Acting Group at 5 (as a matter of fact going to play around with that concept).
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <11-04-15/2014:35>
Thing is, at least for me, is lifestyles, comlinks, and even license are second fiddle compared to attributes, skills, PP. Since play has started I have managed lifestyle upgrade, multiple foci, better armor (Bladz has no issue with Full-body armor, sleeping tiger is his new light armor, and fashionable too!), a weapon foci (didn't start with one) and a nadochi  for breaking armor, custom grips for all his gear. But Blade is been being played, none missions home game, for almost 2 years. But with wacky schedules and what not we are not super high, but well above starting runners. I am just about to complete second initiation.

I think agility boost should work with agile defender, but for Bladz it is a bigger jump, Agility 6 vrs Will 4. If attribute boost does stack, then at this more dice to defense.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: kyoto kid on <11-04-15/2326:53>
...yeah Missions is a lot different.

 Hoping to find an ongoing campaign for my Face character as she would fare better there since  we are so limited for time in the Missions group. Hence we really don't do  much with legwork which is what she is really good at.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <11-04-15/2336:37>
Granted, my sig line blow my posts also explains how we got caught up on money. Before we started this current hunting exposition, the group hunted up full-body armor with chem seals and radiation shielding R6. Perfect tox hunting armor.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: kyoto kid on <11-05-15/0002:12>
...in a run back in 2n ed, KK took out a greatform Toxic Spirit with her weapon focus. throwing everything she had into her attack (no "edging" the roll back then).
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <11-05-15/0023:08>
Last spirit we encountered (around F6 Radiation Spirit) Bladz dropped in one shot, technically it had 1 box of physical left out of 12. Granted edge was used, but really didn't help a large amount (3 edge just doesn't cut it). Also our newest player has a chem seal doesn't have rad shielding R6 in his FB armor yet, so the character was kinda flipping out. Funny thing was the 3 veteran character had the response of, "Meh, 'nother day at the office".
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: kyoto kid on <11-05-15/0209:02>
....yeah, spirits can be a real pain unless you have something like a a mage with good mana spells, an adept with a weapon focus, or someone with a high powered sniper rifle like a Barrett who does a bullseye double tap.

Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Whiskeyjack on <11-05-15/0654:26>
But neglecting soak is not a smart idea either. But agile defender has saved my melee adept's crazy a$$ multiple times. My high armor at first, saved me, but as our runs are getting harder, AP is becoming higher and leaning on armor is less and less wise.
I'm not saying one should neglect soak, just that the 2 soak from Mystic Armor, which you're using an incredibly rare resource to buy, isn't going to save you and is actively a waste of that resource.

2 more ranks of Combat Sense is infinitely more valuable than 2 soak from Mystic Armor.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: kyoto kid on <11-06-15/0511:48>
...already have 2 levels of Combat Sense (see revised build).18 Armour is better than 16 armour. particularly considering that armour is reduced by net DV, not base weapon DV.If you have only a armoured Jacket and someone shoots you with an Ares Alpha getting 2 net successes, you end up taking physical instead of stun damage.Ideally it ise bst not to get hit at all, but the law of averages says it will happen.

Again, there is only so much you can do with purchased armour.  Sleeping Tiger and a Synergist long coat is about the best one can get at chargen (due to cost and availability) which is only 16 total, without going into Sec or Military Grade armour or burning out a point of MA to get an  augmentation like Orthiskin.

16 armour may be fine for a non combatant character, but for one like KK who goes into melee, she needs all the armour she can get.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Whiskeyjack on <11-06-15/0934:49>
Find a way to fit Prototype Transhuman in. Bone Aug >>>>>>> Mystic Armor.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <11-06-15/1122:04>
So true. For fist adepts, aluminium bone lacing is not bad, if you can justify 1 whole essance loss.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: kyoto kid on <11-06-15/1714:50>
....a more essence friendly implant is the Bone Density Bioware augmentation..3 Essence per rating and it also adds to the DV of one's unarmed attacks beginning at rating 2 while granting it's rating in dice for soak rolls. for .1.2 you can get rating 4 which adds 3 to the DV and 4 to your Body for damage tests. If you beta that (after chargen) that it comes down to .84 essence for 30,0000.  So you get the effects of Titanium Bone Lacing (albeit without the boost for armour) at the same price for about half the essence drain and an implant that does not show up on MAD scanners.

Not that I'd want to sacrifice essence and start KK on "Burnout Road" (though I did so in earlier editions as taking deadly wound, even if you managed to shake part f it off, resulted in having to make a Magic Loss test, and the higher your MA, the harder it was not to fail).
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Whiskeyjack on <11-06-15/1727:11>
You don't lose Essence with Prototype Transhuman.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Hobbes on <11-06-15/2038:36>
Missions Play Prototype Transhuman is 20 Karma and gets a bit questionable cost wise.  But Mystic Armor is far and away the most expensive Soak dice you can buy.   levels of Combat Sense >  levels of Mystic Armor. 
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: kyoto kid on <11-07-15/0343:25>
....but combat sense does not actually give you armour, it only adds to your base defence which is still a random chance you don't get hit. whereas armour itself is a constant value.  Again, having good armour can mean the difference between taking physical or stun damage. Stun damage is easier to mitigate (faster recovery and one can also use a stim patch if necessary) than physical damage.

Also, the character already has 2 levels of Combat sense as well as two levels of Mystic armour. The only other way she could improve her armour would be to burn out a power point for something like Orthoskin, Bone Lacing, or Smartskin as she has the best combination of armour a character can get at chargen (Jacket, Ballistic Mask, and PPP legs and arms protection for a total armour 18 with the Mystic Armour).

My Face, who is not a combat oriented character, has 20 Armour.

Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <11-07-15/0914:54>
Actually, best would be sleeping tiger (13) then the stuff you list (or Synergist Coat for +4 armor) for total of 17. If you had high strength character you can easily add more, with helmet or ballistics mask, etc.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Halinn on <11-07-15/0937:01>
....but combat sense does not actually give you armour, it only adds to your base defence which is still a random chance you don't get hit. whereas armour itself is a constant value.

Not getting hit is more valuable than taking less damage.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <11-07-15/0945:29>
....but combat sense does not actually give you armour, it only adds to your base defence which is still a random chance you don't get hit. whereas armour itself is a constant value.

Not getting hit is more valuable than taking less damage.

Very true statement
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Hobbes on <11-07-15/1023:17>
Yeah, one more hit on a defense test means one less damage and potentially no damage at all.  One more hit on a Soak test is one less damage.  I'm not saying neglect Soak tests, but when the choice is +1 Defense or +1 Soak, the +1 Defense is usually the better choice. 
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Whiskeyjack on <11-07-15/1127:08>
Armor is in no way a constant value, because soak is rolled.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Halinn on <11-07-15/1200:28>
Armor is in no way a constant value, because soak is rolled.

Armor is a fixed value when comparing to DV for whether or not you take physical damage. Defense is still better, of course.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: kyoto kid on <11-07-15/1231:58>
...exactly.  Stun damage is also easier to recover from than physical.  .Armour value is also compared against the total DV (base and net hits) of the attack, not just base DV of the weapon used.  If the total DV exceeds the modified armour value (after AP is applied) it's taken as physical.  Even a good defence roll may not take enough hits away form a high powered weapon like a sniper rifle (a Ranger Arms or a Barrett has a starting DV of 14 which exceeds an armoured jacket by 2 without even calculating in AP. Just one net hit will still take a character down who is wearing only a jacket).
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Jack_Spade on <11-07-15/1234:29>
Well, there are grenades to be considered.
But in general yes, dodging is better than soaking
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <11-08-15/0150:49>
Generally defense pools (dodge is something similar but different for 5th ed :D ) should be prioritized over soak.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Jack_Spade on <11-08-15/0222:21>
Well, if you want to be specific you'll also have to say defense tests vs. damage resistance tests since soak isn't a SR5 term either  ;)
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: ZeldaBravo on <11-08-15/0233:46>
....but combat sense does not actually give you armour, it only adds to your base defence which is still a random chance you don't get hit. whereas armour itself is a constant value.

Not getting hit is more valuable than taking less damage.

Very true statement

The thing is, you ARE going to get hit.
But I 100% agree that Combat Sense > Mystic Armor just because armor is easy to get, while PPs are a very valuable and very limited resource. Got to spend them for something equally rare.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Glyph on <11-08-15/0316:14>
Dodging may trump soaking, but it is a good idea to try to do both, unless you are going for concept (skinny dodgy guy or burly tank guy) over optimization.  This is because both actions can be rendered less useful.  Dodging can be affected by autofire, area attacks, defending against more than one attack, or surprise, while armor can be reduced by AP or by certain special kinds of attacks (toxins, etc.).  So normally I would pile on all combat sense and let comparatively cheaper external armor do the heavy lifting, soak-wise, but if 2 points of mystic armor push the character's soaking ability into some desired "sweet spot", then I can see taking it.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Whiskeyjack on <11-08-15/1317:11>
Well, if you want to be specific you'll also have to say defense tests vs. damage resistance tests since soak isn't a SR5 term either  ;)
"Defense test" is more correct since "dodge" is itself a separate term of art in the system.

Everyone knows what soak means though, and it isn't otherwise used in the system, so it's an easy and unambiguous shorthand.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: kyoto kid on <11-08-15/1935:03>
...well put KK through a marathon Missions session, and I think she passed the test.  Didn't even get tagged once while dealing out a lot of hurt to the oppos.

Based on what went down, I agree with Glyph, being optimised for both defence and damage resistance is a good balance and I feel KK is there. 

Another factor to take into consideration is speed and offence. With 4d6 (3d6 +11 from Improved reflexes and an additional 1d6 + 1 from Cram) along with Attribute Boost - Agility (3) she was pretty much in top of her game when it came time to roll initiative.  I was getting an average of around 3 hits on the attribute boost which upped her Agility to 9 (6 combat turns duration which we never exceeded), thus increasing all pools associated with that attribute. That made a noticeable difference on its own particularly when on two occasions she went up against spirits with her weapon focus, or when she hung in the shadows picking off the oppos with her Remington 950. 

As to "optimal" armour, the best physical armour she can really make use of is an armoured jacket (12) Ballistic Mask (+2) with Suretech PPP  leggings (+1) and forearm guards (+1) for a total of 16, (which becomes 18 with Mystic Armour).  That seems to be in the "sweet spot" so to say as it can handle most weapon AP ratings, (save for the super high powered sniper rifles), especially given she will be able to reduce her attacker's hits/DV by a decent  degree with a defence test (which with her Combat sense is a 13 pool). Heavier armours (with the exception of Sleeping Tiger) are "restrictive", which means they compromise skills like sneak, gymnastics, and running (I'm sorry, but the thought of doing acrobatic climb and flip over a fence and landing quietly on the other side, or stealthily moving about in the shadows above while on a metal catwalk in Sec or Swat armour doesn't really work).

As I have mentioned several times, it's not so much getting, hit as to what type of damage occurs (physical or stun) if you are tagged (and like Zelda Bravo mentions, "you are going to get hit").  So best to try and minimise the "pain" as much as possible (again, it is easier to recover  stun than body and it's negative effect can also be mitigated temporarily with a stim patch).  In most of the runs we were on, we had no mage or shaman with a heal spell and between two runs, we had no downtime to sit and heal up.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <11-08-15/2142:57>
I know FB armor doesn't have the restrictive qualifier and almost positive SWAT doesn't either, with SWAT being the slight upgrade to FB, but not as armor value crazyness that either Sec armor or the Mil-Spec, but both of those are restrictive. Sleeping Tiger isn't cheep, but it is worth it. Another armor with the value around 12 (might be slightly higher) is the big game hunter, plus it come with free environmental mods too, that don't could against your armor mod slots.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: kyoto kid on <11-08-15/2258:11>
...to really get the full benefit of Sleeping Tiger's ruthenium polymer option  you can't wear anything with which might obscure the effect like a longcoat, forearm guards, or leg  protection (not even sure a helmet or ballistic mask would be compatible) . This means you only have 13 armour (+ whatever other armour the character gets through implants, adept powers, spells, or natural abilities).

As to heavier armour, the description for Full Body Armour on p.437 of the gear section reads:

Quote
Impossible to conceal, this armour is worn by military and security personnel around the world for heavy ops duty. It is styled for for intimidation and ease of movement with a full array of tactical holsters, pouches and webbing and is sure to draw attention.

(emphasis mine) This means you pretty much stick out like a sore thumb to the authorities even though it has an "R" legality. 

Regarding the Big Game Hunter armour. the same pretty much applies as it is primarily suited for use in the outdoors/wilds rather than in a city (the latter being where most runs take place). Also the extra protection is for survival in a particular environment (Desert, Arctic Jungle, etc) but will do nothing against electricity or fire.
 
I agree that in the appropriate setting, certain types of other armoured clothing like armoured business clothing a when infiltrating corp offices or the Industrious jumpsuit when sneaking into a manufacturing facility can be very helpful. However, the bottom line is the last thing you want on a run is draw extra attention to yourself.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <11-08-15/2322:56>
Depends, sometimes the best way in is to be obvious. Even if you don't get the full bonus of EPs, It comes with some other free mods, like a holster. Then if the FB armor is obvious, it is not restrictive, like some of the other full body armors in R&G. Which is a big favor towards it, and R ratings can be gotten around.
CUSTOM PROTECTION
These items come with a built-in environmental customization
(Fire Resistance, Chemical Protection, or Insulation) that cannot
be removed or changed. The option is chosen at purchase and
is included in the price. This customization does not go away for
Lightly Worn armor; when choosing the Lightly Worn items with
Custom Protection, the gamemaster can determine the features
randomly. Alternately, a character can look for a certain variety,
but that is harder to find, raising the Availability of the item by 1 for
each Rating point of the customization.

Directly copied from R&G. Which Big Game Hunter has this at Rating 6, along with armor 14 and capacity 12 for additional mods. It only doesn't have nonconductive as an option. So for jungle you could get chem 3 and fire 3.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: kyoto kid on <11-09-15/0129:15>
....for a character like KK to whom stealth is very important, the last thing she wants is to draw extra attention to herself, and it's not just from the authorities either. 

The way I read it only the Bunker Gear gets actual Fire Resistance as stated (just like a Chem Suit would have Chemical Resistance). Environment mods would help mitigate fatigue in various harsh environments (eg, insulation for cold environments, or some form heat dissipation for hot environments). There has only been one Mission I've been on where the Big Game Hunter armour would have been useful.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Rift_0f_Bladz on <11-09-15/0923:36>
Not what the armor quality in the rules says, you pick from those 3 list, fluffed to match that environment. So desert would be fire resistance 3 and insulated 3 (with BGH) or jungle (especially Amazon) would be fire resistance 3 and chemical protection 3. If it is set up for certain urban places (Chicago) chemical protection 6 would be fine. The point of some is that some custom protection armors are more flexible than others. Big Game and Globe Trotter lines being prime examples of flexibility.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Duellist_D on <11-09-15/0945:39>
I'm not a big fan of "Sleeping Tiger".
The Numbers make it look like a good Choice, but it looks ridiculous, according to older books.
It's also a sort-of cheesy way to circumvent the new legal rules for ruthenium, which imho doesn't sit well ingame.

For Kyoto Kid, SecondSkin + Heritage or the Executive Suite might be an Option.
Gives you 14 Armor before an Helmet/Ppp/Forearemeguards/we and you don't look like trouble.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: falar on <11-09-15/1107:49>
It's also a sort-of cheesy way to circumvent the new legal rules for ruthenium, which imho doesn't sit well ingame.

What do you mean by "new legal rules"?
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Kincaid on <11-09-15/1138:01>
I think he's talking about the disparity between the legality rating for the armor modification (F) and the Sleeping Tiger (Legal).
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: Duellist_D on <11-09-15/1141:15>
It's also a sort-of cheesy way to circumvent the new legal rules for ruthenium, which imho doesn't sit well ingame.

What do you mean by "new legal rules"?

I'm referring to that ingame story in run&gun why this stuff is now illegal.
Made it sound like RP was not an F Item in older Editions
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: falar on <11-09-15/1202:11>
Oh, okay. I was taking legal to mean like "rules legal" as opposed to "in-game legal," which is probably a confusion that comes up all the time.

Way I see it for Sleeping Tiger, Second Skin, etc, is that the megacorp got a special dispensation for it. Just like how the Steel Lynx comes with a Heavy Weapon Mount, but isn't Forbidden.
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: kyoto kid on <11-09-15/1811:45>
I'm not a big fan of "Sleeping Tiger".
The Numbers make it look like a good Choice, but it looks ridiculous, according to older books.
It's also a sort-of cheesy way to circumvent the new legal rules for ruthenium, which imho doesn't sit well ingame.

For Kyoto Kid, SecondSkin + Heritage or the Executive Suite might be an Option.
Gives you 14 Armor before an Helmet/Ppp/Forearemeguards/we and you don't look like trouble.
...would have to wait another couple missions to got the Second Skin/Heritage route (total 20,000 without any armour mods).  A business suit would also look somewhat out of place on moist missions she'd be on (particularly in Chicago and the CZ). For Heritage she would want it to look like what she's wearing in the pic in the link below.

http://kyotokid.deviantart.com/art/Out-Of-The-Shadows-412866146 (http://kyotokid.deviantart.com/art/Out-Of-The-Shadows-412866146)
Title: Re: Kyoto Kid (the character)
Post by: kyoto kid on <11-09-15/1816:58>
It's also a sort-of cheesy way to circumvent the new legal rules for ruthenium, which imho doesn't sit well ingame.

What do you mean by "new legal rules"?

I'm referring to that ingame story in run&gun why this stuff is now illegal.
Made it sound like RP was not an F Item in older Editions
...for myself it's also the fact that Ruthenium Polymers as an armour accessory has a higher availability rating (16F) than Sleeping Tiger has (10). The coating alone would be 15,000 by itself.

Second Skin has the same issue as well as in the description it also has Ruthenium coating (Rating 4).

In 3rd and earlier editions.  Form Fit could be stacked underneath other armour.  To bad in 5 it doesn't.