Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: kyoto kid on <11-11-15/1859:37>
-
...well, discovered Adepts and Chicago mix about as well as pouring water on a grease fire.
While my Adept rocked in places like Seattle, Denver, and Berlin, she was not much better than a ganger or grunt in the City by the Lake.
Why?
Well there was this little incident back in the 2050's known as the Bug City/Cermak Blast affair, the fallout from which caused the surrounding area to have an ambient background count of 2 (as much as 4 and even 5 in some locales like former. bug hives). Kind of renders a starting adept rather impotent as most powers and foci would only be in the 1 - 2 range and thus, easily cancelled out. It's not just in the CZ either, but pretty much prevalent around most of the city (the way it sounds, maybe Kenosha, Gary, and Elgin would be "clean").
The way I look at it, among adept circles, Chicago would not be very high on the list of places to visit. As a matter of fact, it would most likely be one of the top places to avoid like the proverbial plague. Who in their right mind would want to go into a place where one's powers and foci are pretty much useless, where there still may be straggler bug spirits and who knows what other magical threats wandering around that suddenly you'd be powerless to deal with?
I went through various build schemes and none really work all that well to even minimise let alone counter the effect. Basically one needs to have a pile of Karma to invest in initiations/bonding as well as resources to get a powerful enough weapon focus (like a Force 6 [42,000¥/18 Karma]) that wouldn't be emasculated once you stepped off the bus or train.
I realise that spellcasters have to deal with it as well, however they have a couple options to help offset the effect that adepts don't.
So if you are ever going to be in an extended campaign in the Windy City, consider bringing in a Merc or Paranormal Hunter with a very big gun, the best armour you can find (make sure it is treated for fire and electricity), and lots of APDS. You'll need it.
Chicago is no place for fancy mystical ninja types.
-
Sure it is, you just gotta go bio-adept.
Pure adept? Yeah your hosed.
Dem's da breaks for magicrun...
-
...yeah, but then I might as well play a full mundane as you need ¥¥¥¥¥¥¥ for bio. Just to get an extra 2d6 to initiative costs 190,000¥. almost half your resources at priority A. Crikey I could burn through almost twice that amount easily just purchasing bio as the prices have remained pretty much the same as they were back in the "Million ¥ Sammy" days.
Chrome has become a bit easier on the credstick, but has the big downside of not being very "Essence friendly" as well as now it is both easy for a decker to mess with or anyone/place with an MAD scanner to detect.
-
I would advise adepts to avoid Boston: Lockdown too.
I do consider it a game design problem when one character type has real advantages most of the time, balanced by being pretty terrible under certain circumstances.
-
Yeah, game design wise SR has its issues. Only "effective" counter to magic is make is so it is hard to use and make adepts crapy 'wareless street sams. Bio-adepts work fine in Chicago, but take time to develop well. Another option is home turf or letting oneself become accustomed to the background.
-
I went through various build schemes and none really work all that well to even minimise let alone counter the effect. Basically one needs to have a pile of Karma to invest in initiations/bonding as well as resources to get a powerful enough weapon focus (like a Force 6 [42,000¥/18 Karma]) that wouldn't be emasculated once you stepped off the bus or train.
To be fair, those are things you're going to invest in anyway, so it's not really that crippling. Initiating is the easiest way for you to get more power points, so you're going to do that anyway; just give up one of those power points for the Adept Centering metamagic and you're good to go. If you're buying a weapon focus, you're not going to be satisfied with a Force 1 or 2 anyway; you're going to buy as big a focus as you can lay your hands on.
Adepts are better at a lot of things than street sams will ever be, because of the limitations of how much money and Essence are required for top-level 'ware, and because there are so many high-force spirits in the CZ that street sams can't touch. (As others have said, a point or two of 'ware can solve all your problems.) Occasionally, if you're not prepared, you'll be slightly worse than a street sam. That's the (minimal) price you pay for magic.
-
the best armour you can find make sure it is treated for fire and electricity
Forget that. Chemical seal and radiation protection.
-
Yeah, game design wise SR has its issues. Only "effective" counter to magic is make is so it is hard to use and make adepts crapy 'wareless street sams. Bio-adepts work fine in Chicago, but take time to develop well. Another option is home turf or letting oneself become accustomed to the background.
...unfortunately the Home Ground quality as I understand it, would only relate to a few square blocks, not the entire CZ. so that is pretty pointless to use unless you are in a very localised street level/gang based campaign.
Here I was so glad they made Adepts playable (or so I thought) but this whole background count thing makes them pretty much useless again. Background counts used to just be annoying to spellcasters but now they cripple adepts. Disappointing as Adepts are the only awakened characters I like to play.
-
I went through various build schemes and none really work all that well to even minimise let alone counter the effect. Basically one needs to have a pile of Karma to invest in initiations/bonding as well as resources to get a powerful enough weapon focus (like a Force 6 [42,000¥/18 Karma]) that wouldn't be emasculated once you stepped off the bus or train.
To be fair, those are things you're going to invest in anyway, so it's not really that crippling. Initiating is the easiest way for you to get more power points, so you're going to do that anyway; just give up one of those power points for the Adept Centering metamagic and you're good to go. If you're buying a weapon focus, you're not going to be satisfied with a Force 1 or 2 anyway; you're going to buy as big a focus as you can lay your hands on.
Adepts are better at a lot of things than street sams will ever be, because of the limitations of how much money and Essence are required for top-level 'ware, and because there are so many high-force spirits in the CZ that street sams can't touch. (As others have said, a point or two of 'ware can solve all your problems.) Occasionally, if you're not prepared, you'll be slightly worse than a street sam. That's the (minimal) price you pay for magic.
...I understand that, the issue I have is you pretty much end up having to take a back seat for say a dozen missions or so to get to that level which is kind of dull and feels like cheating.
Normally, adepts out of the box are already a cut or two below a chromed/bioed up beginning sammy. Not having access to most of your powers and/or foci on top of that puts the character about at the level of a ganger or grunt in comparison. What good is spending 3.5 PPs for Improved Reflexes 3 to only roll 2D6 plus your reduced initiative because the background count cancels out 2 levels of the power? Crikey, a ganger amped up on Jazz can beat you to the punch.
-
IIRC Background counts work differently. In BC5 your initiative will be 13+4d6-5.
BCs don't decrease the levels of adept powers, they affect dicepools increased with adept powers. I may be wrong though.
-
5th edition has very much been an edition of tech, I have said so several times before, but others for whatever reason disagree.
My recommendation is ether redo your character into tech, or just make a tech character. Alternatively there are ways to over come the BC issues, but the easiest one (Home Ground) is blocked by mission rules. The other options is very point intensive (Ways).
-
IIRC Background counts work differently. In BC5 your initiative will be 13+4d6-5.
BCs don't decrease the levels of adept powers, they affect dicepools increased with adept powers. I may be wrong though.
...just posted to my missions group on this awaiting a confirmation.
Seems to me the designers went a little overboard trying to rein in magical power to the point awakened PCs are more crippled than the awakened oppos who seem to be the only ones able to use a background count to their advantage.
-
5th edition has very much been an edition of tech, I have said so several times before, but others for whatever reason disagree.
My recommendation is ether redo your character into tech, or just make a tech character. Alternatively there are ways to over come the BC issues, but the easiest one (Home Ground) is blocked by mission rules. The other options is very point intensive (Ways).
...I just looked at the latest update to the Missions FAQ and it doesn't list Home Ground as a prohibited quality. However again, as I understand, it only covers a limited area so you can't claim the entire CZ is your home turf even if your character lives there.
-
Please read up on BGC before spreading false Information.
Initiative is not a test and therefore not subject to BGC.
Furthermore claiming that adepts are below street sams without added disclaimer sounds strange, since adepts can be faster and better dodge monkeys than street sams.
-
...I read through the Background Count Rules (P 32 Street Grimiore) and for several situations, the rulings sounded rather vague and inconclusive. For example in one part it mentions
"A foci will not activate in a background count".
So does that mean a count of 1 will not allow a focus to be activated no matter what it's force is?
A major part of the discussion seems to centre around types of backgrounds, anchored/quickened spells, and astral actions like assensing, perception, tracking and combat as well as Acclimation and Alignment..
It does mention that a background count "imposes" a negative dice penalty on skill tests that use "active" adept powers like Killing Hands or Improved Sense as well as the fact an adept can turn off a "passive" power (which Improved Reflexes falls under) if the penalty exceeds the "bonuses gained from their powers". For Improved Reflexes, that "bonus" is both +1d6 and +1 to Reaction per rating of the power. So, based on the wording in the BC rules, it can easily sound as if someone with IR 2 walks into a background count of 3, the "bonuses" from the power.would be exceeded by the penalty and the power would not grant the bonus.
As I am still new to 5th ed (the last version I played with any regularity was 3rd and that was almost a decade ago), I find it confusing and again, somewhat vague as few specific examples are illustrated and none in the case of the adept initiative power..
During the session earlier this week I couldn't get a concrete answer on this and other questions I had (after being told my character would be negatively affected by the CZ's background count) due to the time constraints we were under (only 4 hours) to complete the mission at hand, so I hope you can understand my frustration on this matter.
-
5th edition has very much been an edition of tech, I have said so several times before, but others for whatever reason disagree.
Tech is certainly good, but parts of it took a hit due to the changed core costs over last edition.
The only real hit to magic is the ubiquity of background count.
-
...I read through the Background Count Rules (P 32 Street Grimiore) and for several situations, the rulings sounded rather vague and inconclusive. For example in one part it mentions
"A foci will not activate in a background count".
So does that mean a count of 1 will not allow a focus to be activated no matter what it's force is?
A major part of the discussion seems to centre around types of backgrounds, anchored/quickened spells, and astral actions like assensing, perception, tracking and combat as well as Acclimation and Alignment..
It does mention that a background count "imposes" a negative dice penalty on skill tests that use "active" adept powers like Killing Hands or Improved Sense as well as the fact an adept can turn off a "passive" power (which Improved Reflexes falls under) if the penalty exceeds the "bonuses gained from their powers". For Improved Reflexes, that "bonus" is both +1d6 and +1 to Reaction per rating of the power. So, based on the wording in the BC rules, it can easily sound as if someone with IR 2 walks into a background count of 3, the "bonuses" from the power.would be exceeded by the penalty and the power would not grant the bonus.
As I am still new to 5th ed (the last version I played with any regularity was 3rd and that was almost a decade ago), I find it confusing and again, somewhat vague as few specific examples are illustrated and none in the case of the adept initiative power..
During the session earlier this week I couldn't get a concrete answer on this and other questions I had (after being told my character would be negatively affected by the CZ's background count) due to the time constraints we were under (only 4 hours) to complete the mission at hand, so I hope you can understand my frustration on this matter.
Missions errata/FAQ posted here in the forums tells you exactly what background affects. Initiative is not one of them. The foci only shut off if the background is equal or higher the the foci's force.
Edit: Background counts greater than foci's force are affected.
-
Initiative is not a test and therefore not subject to BGC.
I believe Bull said something about that specific topic.
-
Yeah I'd probably never play awakened in games set in Chicago or Boston. I hate this edition's background count but these locations just make it even more punishing.
-
Yeah I'd probably never play awakened in games set in Chicago or Boston. I hate this edition's background count but these locations just make it even more punishing.
The Shaman in my game found that magic trivialized some substantial parts of Boston: Lockdown. Background count was a constant drag, but for avoiding the grind of headcases the mix of illusions, invisibility, silence, spirits, and levitation just made a lot of things that seem to have been intended as hard instead be easy. Granted that he will be making it up to his ally spirit for a good while, and heck the spirit world in general. But you know, made enough money that buying the ally his own souped up racing bike was a pretty easy expense, and that was a decent first step to showing his good intentions.
But rougher on adepts, especially without adept centering.
-
...I also received a definitive answer from my missions group. So at least that isn't hosed.
However, not pleased that she paid 14,000¥/6 K for what effectively becomes a 1,000¥ mundane Katana and her 2 Qi foci are each just pretty 6,000¥ tattoos (especially as I chose resources over metatype).
Did some messing around and rebuilt her as a Bio-Adept (4 magic 2.65 essence in bio and a smartlink), but the most cost effective way to do so is to use the Karma build as it is easier to balance everything out without taking a huge hit assigning a low priority to something important. Did have to purchase the Adept quality (rather than get it free under the priority system).
Basically I had 168,000¥ in resources, the attributes and skills came out pretty much the same (in a couple cases better with augmentation). The only Adept powers she has are Improved Reflexes 2 and Combat sense 3. No Foci to start with.
The augmentations were:
Smartlink, with Vision Magnification
Muscle Augmentation 1
Muscle Toner 2
Orthoskin 3 (total 19 armour)
Tetrachromatic Vision (+3 to visual perception and reduce darkness penalties by one level).
Gave her the same weapons and armour (though the Jacket has YNT softweave)
Attributes: BOD: 4, AGI: 5 (7), REA: 4 (6), STR: 4 (5), CHA: 2, INT: 5, LOG: 2, WIL: 5, EDG: 3, MAG: 4, ESS: 4.35
Initiative 9 (11) + 3d6.
Limits - Physical: 7, Mental: 5 (7 Visual Perception), Social: 5.
Positive Qualities:
Adept
Agile Defender
Natural Athlete
Perceptive I
Negative Qualities:
Addiction (Mild - Betel)
Albinisim II
Distinctive Style
Prejudiced (Common Biased - Elves)
SkIlls
Blades (Swords): 6 - Pool: 13 (15)
Etiquette: 2 - Pool: 4
Longarms (Sniper Rifles) 5 - Pool: 12 (14)
Perception: 5 - Pool: 11 (14/16 visual)
Pistols (Revolvers) 5 - Pool: 12 (14)
Sneaking: (Urban) 5 - Pool: 12 (14)
Knowledge:
Area Knowledge Chicago 3 - Pool: 8
Gangs: 4 - Pool: 9
Tir Taringire 3 - Pool: 8
English 4 - Pool: 8 (apparently no "native" language under the Karma system)
Japanese: 3 - Pool: 8
Sperethieil: 2 - Pool: 7
Skill Group: Athletics 3
Gymnastics Pool: 12
Running Pool: 10
Swimming Pool: 8
Martial Art: Carramoleg - Technique: Iajutsu (yeah thought it would be interesting for the "Forsaken Daughter" of the TT to learn it's fighting style)
Unfortunately from what I read in the Missions FAQ (and I have the latest update, also searched the missions forum here) apparently only the Priority chargen system is being used. Interesting experiment though.
-
What can you give up to get a weapon focus?
-
...not much as I tried to keep her as close as possible to the Priority build. She'd at least need a force 3, if not 4 to deal with elevated areas of BC. So that's 21,000 - 28,000 and more importantly, 9 - 12 Karma to bond. In the last mission she was on we ended up in an area where the BC was 4. Like I have been mentioning, pure adepts have it pretty rough time of it in the CZ. About al they really can count on is their heightened Initiative and maybe Combat Sense, if that is taken at a a high enough rating (like 3 or 4). Effectively she now has 3 extra armour three extra dice for visual perception (not subject to noise) and two extra dice for defence/agility skill pools that won't suddenly "go away" as the would if they were powers.
Again this is all sort of moot as I don't think Karma Build characters are allowed in Missions. Haven't been able to find anything about it other than what is in the Chargen section of the Missions FAQ (and there it just mentions the Priority system). Would have to take a big hit on either skills or attributes (taking Magic at priority C to get the MA of 4) as one of them would have to be assigned to Priority D to get enough resources (275,000¥) to pay for all the bio she would need as well as her regular gear. There is no way to get 4 magic and 140,000¥ as they both are Priority C. and taking Magic at D will only give her an MA of 3 as with Metatype at E, she would only get 1 special attribute point. She'd also need to dump 10 build Karma into Resources.reducing the Karma available for other needs.
-
Again this is all sort of moot as I don't think Karma Build characters are allowed in Missions. Haven't been able to find anything about it other than what is in the Chargen section of the Missions FAQ (and there it just mentions the Priority system).
It's allowed. It's in the Run Faster section of the FAQ.
-
..OK thanks, Just saw that. Kind of expected to find it on the main discussion on Chargen which only mentions the Priority system.
That's good because there's a glitch in the Chummer chargen software that reduces MA by 'ware installed when using the Priority Build mode even if the character has a Magic Attribute lower than 6 (like 4). This does not occur with the Point (Karma) build mode.
Pretty hard to build a Bio-Adept on only D or E resources.
Also for this kind of hybrid build I think the Karma system is more efficient as it offers more flexibility.
I used to use the alternate build point system in 2nd & 3rd ed. and found it to be better for as it wasn't so "min-maxed".
-
That's good because there's a glitch in the Chummer chargen software that reduces MA by 'ware installed when using the Priority Build mode even if the character has a Magic lower than 6 (like 4). This does not occur in the Point (Karma) build mode.
Not a glitch. See p. 95 of core book. Probably priority is doing something wrong, though.
edit: meant karmagen was doing it wrong, not priority
-
Personally, I really enjoy playing hamstrung characters sometimes. The struggle makes it all the more worth while. I used to read Thor comics back in the 80's/90's and the writers were just CONSTANTLY putting some kind of curse on him or screwing up the hammer, or turning him into a frog, etc. Made for some really dramatic scenes. As a result, I often gravitate toward characters that are fundamentally "fucked" in some way. Sometimes, ya just gotta go places you shouldn't ever go and do shit you have no business doing. That's life, Chummer.
I understand how a lot of people don't think that sort of thing is fun though.
-
That's good because there's a glitch in the Chummer chargen software that reduces MA by 'ware installed when using the Priority Build mode even if the character has a Magic lower than 6 (like 4). This does not occur in the Point (Karma) build mode.
Not a glitch. See p. 95 of core book. Probably priority is doing something wrong, though.
Priority is doing it as per the magic section... lose a point of essence, lose a point of magic rating and maximum magic.
-
....just checked that, bugger. So then the real glitch in the programme must be in the Point (Karma) build mode as it's letting me have a 4 magic and 1.6 essence of ware. Or is this an effect of using the Karma build system as it does not let me increase the Magic attribute beyond 4 with the 1.6 essence (rounded to 2) taken up by 'ware (nor does it let me take more than 2 essence of augmentation).
So the suggestions I read to take magic at a lower priority level (eg. lower attribute score) to get some bio were incorrect then as basically the resulting attribute score would be 1 (if I applied the 1 special attribute point from Priority E to it) which would be pretty useless a I couldn't even get Improved reflexes 1. After Positive qualities, the most the attribute could be raised to is 3
-
Personally, I really enjoy playing hamstrung characters sometimes. The struggle makes it all the more worth while. I used to read Thor comics back in the 80's/90's and the writers were just CONSTANTLY putting some kind of curse on him or screwing up the hammer, or turning him into a frog, etc. Made for some really dramatic scenes. As a result, I often gravitate toward characters that are fundamentally "fucked" in some way. Sometimes, ya just gotta go places you shouldn't ever go and do shit you have no business doing. That's life, Chummer.
I understand how a lot of people don't think that sort of thing is fun though.
...I don't mind challenges, but when 80% of what the character is trained do is effectively neutralised all the time, it makes one (at least myself) ask what am I doing here?
Crikey, I already feel like a modern day "Job" in RL the way it is, would like one of the few diversions I pursue to be somewhat more enjoyable.
-
That's good because there's a glitch in the Chummer chargen software that reduces MA by 'ware installed when using the Priority Build mode even if the character has a Magic lower than 6 (like 4). This does not occur in the Point (Karma) build mode.
Not a glitch. See p. 95 of core book. Probably priority is doing something wrong, though.
Priority is doing it as per the magic section... lose a point of essence, lose a point of magic rating and maximum magic.
I apparently didn't write what I meant to write. I was going to say that karmagen was probably doing it wrong, not priority.
-
Personally, I really enjoy playing hamstrung characters sometimes. The struggle makes it all the more worth while. I used to read Thor comics back in the 80's/90's and the writers were just CONSTANTLY putting some kind of curse on him or screwing up the hammer, or turning him into a frog, etc. Made for some really dramatic scenes. As a result, I often gravitate toward characters that are fundamentally "fucked" in some way. Sometimes, ya just gotta go places you shouldn't ever go and do shit you have no business doing. That's life, Chummer.
I understand how a lot of people don't think that sort of thing is fun though.
...I don't mind challenges, but when 80% of what the character is trained do is effectively neutralised all the time, it makes one (at least myself) ask what am I doing here?
Crikey, I already feel like a modern day "Job" in RL the way it is, would like one of the few diversions I pursue to be somewhat more enjoyable.
Like i said, I totally understand why it wouldn't be enjoyable for a lot of people. But my favorite scenes in action movies are always the ones where characters have to do exactly the things they're bad at, when none of their advantages work anymore. I love it when the wand breaks, when conan has to be sneaky, when john mclane has no shoes, when spiderman has to go out into the flat plains, that kinda shit. It aint for everyone.
-
That's good because there's a glitch in the Chummer chargen software that reduces MA by 'ware installed when using the Priority Build mode even if the character has a Magic lower than 6 (like 4). This does not occur in the Point (Karma) build mode.
Not a glitch. See p. 95 of core book. Probably priority is doing something wrong, though.
Priority is doing it as per the magic section... lose a point of essence, lose a point of magic rating and maximum magic.
I apparently didn't write what I meant to write. I was going to say that karmagen was probably doing it wrong, not priority.
...well that's no good to me then as there is no way to find a decent balance.
Taking Priority B to get 6 magic and burning out 2 will leave only priority D for resources unless I really want to crock her attributes or skills. At least would like to get Improved Reflexes 2 (I can always augment this with Cram until she initiates) and Combat Sense 3. Best I can do with Priority D magic is an MA of 3 (after the implants) which takes 25 build Karma as she only gets one Special Attribute point at E. (and would have an Edge of only 2 - perfect for a lot of glitches on Edge tests, crikey, may as well take the Bad Luck quality to boot). It would also leave only .5 for additional Adept powers after taking Improved Reflexes 2 which would most likely be rendered useless most of the time by the background count.
-
A background count impose a negative dice pool penalty
equal to its rating for all tests linked in any way to magic (such
as spellcasting, summoning, and skill tests that use active adept
powers such as Killing Hands or Improved Sense).
As far as I know, Initiative isn't a test so Improved Reflexes shouldn't be affected by background count.
On the other hand it provides a boost to reflexes so any test linked to reflexes would be affected.
Of course my understanding of the English language and Catalyst's use of the English language are at odds, so I'm probably wrong.
And, Home Ground- Background Acclimation does wonders.
-
I think that the first chapter on p. 32 SG speaks only about active adept powers. The next chapter says that "Adepts may use a Simple action to turn on or off a passive power in cases where penalties from BC might exceed bonuses from their power".
If you have combat sense 2 in BC 3, you have to switch it off, because otherwise you get -1 to your dodge pool. I think that this is same for improved reflexes: In BC 2 improved reflexes 3 gives only +1 in reaction and +1d6 to initiative.
Tbh, street grimoire is not a new book anymore, why the official errata still does not solve these difficulties? Catalyst only produces more badly written texts... The game is not very popular, one reason is indeed this!
-
I think that the first chapter on p. 32 SG speaks only about active adept powers. The next chapter says that "Adepts may use a Simple action to turn on or off a passive power in cases where penalties from BC might exceed bonuses from their power".
If you have combat sense 2 in BC 3, you have to switch it off, because otherwise you get -1 to your dodge pool. I think that this is same for improved reflexes: In BC 2 improved reflexes 3 gives only +1 in reaction and +1d6 to initiative.
Tbh, street grimoire is not a new book anymore, why the official errata still does not solve these difficulties? Catalyst only produces more badly written texts... The game is not very popular, one reason is indeed this!
Why would you turn off the IR3....if BC does affect it, it would still be +3Reaction +1d6 Initiative in BC2... the Background count would need to be 4+ to make me wan to turn it off.
-
...as I may have mentioned, I was unaware of this when I designed the character. It wasn't so much an issue for adepts on previous versions (3rd being the last one I regularly played under). From several sources where I have inquired about this, all mention that the background count is subtracted from the final initiative roll (eg. 3d6 + 11 - 2) That is good.
From what I heard and read this is sort of how I understand things now though a few questions remain.
fFor powers, that directly affect dice pools of any skill test, it will be negatively affected by the count's rating. So for example, for an adept in Chicago, unless she has a power with multiple rating levels that is greater than 2, the power will effectively be negated and only the base dice in the pools will apply to the test. For example, an adept using Improved ability 2 will only have their normal dice pool for the test (as if they didn't have the power). Now the one question I have is, if the background count exceeds the power's rating, is the base dice pool further adjusted by the increased count? Same for a power like Attribute Boost - Agility 2, the adept will only get the dice for her magic attribute, without the power as her pool. If the count increases to 3, does she subtract another die from the test (and so on the worse it gets)? Another area that still seems a bit hazy are powers like Enhanced Accuracy, linguist, or Sustenance which do have any affect on a dice pool, would these be negatively affected as well and how would that be handled?
For foci it seems pretty straightforward, if the background count is equal to greater than the force, they simply will not activate.
This really should have been spelled out a little better in the rules as it is no small consequence for awakened characters, particularly adepts. I've spent nearly two days asking around on various forums and looking for any detailed and definitive description.
-
I think that the first chapter on p. 32 SG speaks only about active adept powers. The next chapter says that "Adepts may use a Simple action to turn on or off a passive power in cases where penalties from BC might exceed bonuses from their power".
If you have combat sense 2 in BC 3, you have to switch it off, because otherwise you get -1 to your dodge pool. I think that this is same for improved reflexes: In BC 2 improved reflexes 3 gives only +1 in reaction and +1d6 to initiative.
Tbh, street grimoire is not a new book anymore, why the official errata still does not solve these difficulties? Catalyst only produces more badly written texts... The game is not very popular, one reason is indeed this!
Why would you turn off the IR3....if BC does affect it, it would still be +3Reaction +1d6 Initiative in BC2... the Background count would need to be 4+ to make me wan to turn it off.
...ummm.
Initiative is not a test and therefore not subject to BGC.
-
So the suggestions I read to take magic at a lower priority level (eg. lower attribute score) to get some bio were incorrect then as basically the resulting attribute score would be 1 (if I applied the 1 special attribute point from Priority E to it) which would be pretty useless a I couldn't even get Improved reflexes 1. After Positive qualities, the most the attribute could be raised to is 3
I think someone misspoke when they gave you that advice. The only time setting your Magic Priority lower produces a higher Magic Attribute is when you place Metatype at a higher priority and use the Special Attribute Points to then increase Magic instead of Edge. It's a strategy that can be used to negate the penalty from Essence loss in character generation.
Essence Loss and MAG
As you probably know, any Essence Loss reduces your MAG Attribute by 1. Basically, if you're taking your base Essence (6) and subtract the Essence Cost of whatever Bio/Cyberware you're installing, then the whole number is what your MAG Attribute is limited to (save for qualities, Initiations, etc). For example, a Mage with 6 MAG and 6 Essence gets a Datajack installed. This drops him to 5.9 Essence, and thus 5 MAG. This also means he can then add .9 nire Essence worth of Bio/Cyberware before he incurs another penalty.
Where this gets weird is when your MAG isn't at its Racial Limit. Even if you only have 4 MAG and you drop your Essence from 6 to 5.9, you still lose 1 MAG because the Whole Number of your Essence dropped. The Whole Number of your Essence is thus your new Limit, and your MAG stays the same distance from the Limit regardless of how much you drop it. This is why taking Magic as Priority D (Adept) and then taking Wired Reflexes 2 is a bad idea. Your MAG Attribute then drops to 0 and you lose the ability to use Magic.
The way this helps in Character Generation is when someone is, effectively, trying to "game the system". If you place Magic as C Priority as an Adept, you have 4 MAG. Lets say you're also an Elf, so Metatype at D, which gives you 0 Special Attribute Points (SAPs). Now, you install Muscle Toner (Standard) 2 for a .5 Essence cost, dropping your Essence to 5.5 and your Magic to 3. At this point all you can do to raise it back up to 4 (since 5 is your new Limit) is spend Karma.
Now, lets say you took Magic (Adept) as C Priority and Metatype as F (Human). Magic (Adept) at C gives you 4 MAG, and Metatype (Human) at F gives you 1 SAP. Now you install Muscle Toner (Standard) 2 for .5 Essence, dropping your Essence to 5.5 and your Magic to 3. Now you can spend that SAP in MAG and bring it back up to 4, effectively getting around the Essence Loss to MAG (although your Limit is still lower).
Hopefully that made sense!
-
I doubt thats legal.
At the point where you can buy Implants (Step 5), you would already had spend all your Attribute and Special Points (Step 2).
-
...it did, but again, that strategy wouldn't work as I'd have to take resources at priority B to afford any bio, thus having to assign either skills or attributes at priority D. which would totally crock an adept build.
The Karma build system actually worked pretty well, it's just too bad that in the Chummer generator it's broken in this respect. I did post about it in the Chummer 5e thread. Once they get it fixed it wouldn't be too hard to shift some points around to get the MA of 4 legitimately. Again I only need about 164,000¥ in resources for the build not the full 275,000¥. In the Point build system, that's a 56 Karma difference which would pay for both restoring the two levels of MA lost to the implants and Adept Quality.
-
I doubt thats legal.
At the point where you can buy Implants (Step 5), you would already had spend all your Attribute and Special Points (Step 2).
...I don't think there's any "hard fast" rule that requires you to follow the sequence of: Metatype -> Attributes -> Qualities -> Skills -> Gear/Augmentations -> Spells/Powers. It's just set up that way to make it easy for people to follow. I've never built a character like that in any version. As long as all the numbers jive that's all that matters. Using an automated character generator pretty much makes it difficult to make mistakes in calculations or cheat.
The Point Build system also ignores all that anyway as you just have a single pool of Karma to work with.
-
The build order IS important. Duelist_D is totally right.
-
The Point Build system also ignores all that anyway as you just have a single pool of Karma to work with.
That's the reason why you cannot ignore that in prio. You have different pools. Don't mix them.
-
I doubt thats legal.
At the point where you can buy Implants (Step 5), you would already had spend all your Attribute and Special Points (Step 2).
Yeah, it definitely doesn't follow the Step Order (which is kind of foundational to the Priority System) and so is definitely illegal. My intent was to clarify advice people seem to give regularly since it's usually always given in half-vague terms, likely for this particular reason. For Homebrew games it might not be important even then! Who knows!
It's just a shame that HeroLab and Chummer5 don't enforce the Step Order. I guess there are just some things only Paper and Pencil can do.
-
However taking Magic D (Adept MR 2) Taking 4 ESS of ware (dropping to Maximum Magic 2, MR 0) and then using 15 karma in the karma step to bring you to MR 2 is legal.
As far as sohi's example, he got the order wrong.... you put the special point into magic raising it to 5 and in resource step buy the bioware dropping it to 4.
-
Alright, thanks for the clarification.
-
The build order IS important. Duelist_D is totally right.
...could I get a page citing that indicates this as being an "absolute" rule?
Also, a lot of members (even GMs who play when they get the chance) in the Missions group I'm in use either Hero Lab or Chummer and this doesn't seem to be an issue as long as the numbers jive.
Anyway this may all be pretty much moot as Missions does accept the Point (Karma) build system. MA can be bought to 6 at the outset without taking as huge a hit in another area as the priority system imposes. Yeah the character may not be as powerful at the outset, but she would be more well balanced.
-
... or spend your PP on Improved Reflexes, Combat Reflexes, and utility powers. Initiative doesn't get pinged by BC and the + to defense tests from Combat Sense and bonus Reaction stacks and only gets penalized once.
And instead of spreading around your foci, pick one thing, put all the moneys into it? Or splash a point of 'ware?
-
... or spend your PP on Improved Reflexes, Combat Reflexes, and utility powers. Initiative doesn't get pinged by BC and the + to defense tests from Combat Sense and bonus Reaction stacks and only gets penalized once.
And instead of spreading around your foci, pick one thing, put all the moneys into it? Or splash a point of 'ware?
It's also my understanding that initiative does not get effected by BC.
-
...could I get a page citing that indicates that Qualities cost or give as much karma as they do as being an "absolute" rule? Or at least that essence loss due to augmentations is an "absolute" rule? Maybe racial attribute limits? No? Well it's time to make a human with BOD 9 then!
...not funny.
If you have nothing to say that is constructive, then don't bother saying anything at all.
I thought better of participants here, guess I was mistaken.
-
A warning has been sent to a user for posting non-helpful criticism. Please remember to keep your replies helpful and considerate.
-
Personally, I really enjoy playing hamstrung characters sometimes. The struggle makes it all the more worth while. I used to read Thor comics back in the 80's/90's and the writers were just CONSTANTLY putting some kind of curse on him or screwing up the hammer, or turning him into a frog, etc. Made for some really dramatic scenes. As a result, I often gravitate toward characters that are fundamentally "fucked" in some way. Sometimes, ya just gotta go places you shouldn't ever go and do shit you have no business doing. That's life, Chummer.
I understand how a lot of people don't think that sort of thing is fun though.
...I don't mind challenges, but when 80% of what the character is trained do is effectively neutralised all the time, it makes one (at least myself) ask what am I doing here?
Crikey, I already feel like a modern day "Job" in RL the way it is, would like one of the few diversions I pursue to be somewhat more enjoyable.
Like i said, I totally understand why it wouldn't be enjoyable for a lot of people. But my favorite scenes in action movies are always the ones where characters have to do exactly the things they're bad at, when none of their advantages work anymore. I love it when the wand breaks, when conan has to be sneaky, when john mclane has no shoes, when spiderman has to go out into the flat plains, that kinda shit. It aint for everyone.
While i can understand the appeal, there are only a few RPGs I go to to play the mechanical underdog (even if many cast you as the narrative underdog). When I play an RPG, I don't like to feel like the very setting is constraining my power or agency. This is the kind of thing I like to watch in a movie, not play out in a game. I agree with Poindexter.
Which isn't to say that if others prefer the other way, that they're "doing it wrong." It's just not appealing to me. Hence why I wouldn't want to play a magic user in Chicago.
-
Personally, I really enjoy playing hamstrung characters sometimes. The struggle makes it all the more worth while. I used to read Thor comics back in the 80's/90's and the writers were just CONSTANTLY putting some kind of curse on him or screwing up the hammer, or turning him into a frog, etc. Made for some really dramatic scenes. As a result, I often gravitate toward characters that are fundamentally "fucked" in some way. Sometimes, ya just gotta go places you shouldn't ever go and do shit you have no business doing. That's life, Chummer.
I understand how a lot of people don't think that sort of thing is fun though.
...I don't mind challenges, but when 80% of what the character is trained do is effectively neutralised all the time, it makes one (at least myself) ask what am I doing here?
Crikey, I already feel like a modern day "Job" in RL the way it is, would like one of the few diversions I pursue to be somewhat more enjoyable.
Like i said, I totally understand why it wouldn't be enjoyable for a lot of people. But my favorite scenes in action movies are always the ones where characters have to do exactly the things they're bad at, when none of their advantages work anymore. I love it when the wand breaks, when conan has to be sneaky, when john mclane has no shoes, when spiderman has to go out into the flat plains, that kinda shit. It aint for everyone.
While i can understand the appeal, there are only a few RPGs I go to to play the mechanical underdog (even if many cast you as the narrative underdog). When I play an RPG, I don't like to feel like the very setting is constraining my power or agency. This is the kind of thing I like to watch in a movie, not play out in a game. I agree with Poindexter.
Which isn't to say that if others prefer the other way, that they're "doing it wrong." It's just not appealing to me. Hence why I wouldn't want to play a magic user in Chicago.
Word.
-
However taking Magic D (Adept MR 2) Taking 4 ESS of ware (dropping to Maximum Magic 2, MR 0) and then using 15 karma in the karma step to bring you to MR 2 is legal.
As far as sohi's example, he got the order wrong.... you put the special point into magic raising it to 5 and in resource step buy the bioware dropping it to 4.
...OK, back to the matter at hand.
I wen ahead and built a character from square one following the sequence of "steps", I started with a magic of 4 (Priority C), applied the one SA point to raise it to 5 then moved on to purchase by qualities, skills, gear and implants in order the final which reduced the character's MA to 3. So, having 20 Karma that I didn't spend (went light in the positive qualities and didn't put any into other attributes or Resources) I could take that "leftover Karma" in the "Karma Step" and apply it to MAG to bring it back to the maximum of 4?
Priorities assigned:
A: Attributes (24 APs)
B: Resources (275,000¥)
C: Magic/Adept (4 MR = 4 PP's 2 rating to one skill)
D: Skills (22 SPs with no skill group points)
E: Metatype. (Human, 1 SA point)
-
Absolutely.
-
A warning has been sent to a user for posting non-helpful criticism. Please remember to keep your replies helpful and considerate.
...thank you,
I'm still learning the ropes of 5th ed. (much different than 3rd which I last played), and only am looking for clarification of things that seem either confusing or vague which I have been running into.
-
Look, the priority system combines linear (points) and progressive (karma) methods. If people don't follow the established order of actions during the character creation then they will get different results, potentially giving someone an unfair advantage or a disadvantage over others. That difference has nothing to do with optimisation or minmaxing. 2+2*2 equals 6 if you follow the order, or 8 if you don't.
There's an example: person A picks priority C for metatype that gives him an Elf with 3 SAPs. Person A then proseeds to spend the SAPs to raise Edge to 4 and spends 25 karma to get Edge 5. Meanwhile, person B spends 25 karma to raise edge 1->3, and after that applies an Elf 3 pattern, giving her Edge 6.
Person B has an advantage not because they are being smart about building a character but due to ignoring the build order.
Steps 1 to 8 provide a uniform pattern for players to start in uniform conditions. You wouldn't join a Street Scum campaign with a High Life Prime Runner character, right?
-
...umm like I mentioned, I followed the sequence of steps "as prescribed", and it all worked out. No cheats or "skips". One of the last build steps one does before going "career" is to spend unused Karma so I did, so everything was "totally by the book" (even though I still cannot find the page where it specifically states one is required to follow the steps in order).
Even had enough to get a Weapon Focus 4 (which she needs to earn Karma to bond).
-
What did you spend karma on instead of bonding? I might look into whether you can cut back or take more NQs to do that.
-
...MA to bring it back to 4, as per Gradivs' post at the top of the page.
She has the full -25 in NQs and only spent a little on PQs and some skills leaving me with 20 after the Purchase Gear step.
In the Missions group I'm in, we are allowed us to rework a character within the first three sessions so with one session already under her belt she's more than halfway there.
-
...MA to bring it back to 4, as per Gradivs' post at the top of the page.
MAG?
Hm.
-
Yeah, if you want an adept who can function in background count, you want one with high initiative-boosting powers and bioware. That's what I hate most about the background count rules. They render so many adept powers useless, since so many of those powers are little dice pool boosters. The end result is to discourage quirky concepts with a variety of powers, in favor of min-maxing. That is the opposite of good game balance. I'm glad your GM is letting you re-work your character, though.
-
...and I'm not a fan of Min Maxing at all. I like a more balanced character so that she's no just "a one trick pony".
So using the 20 Karma like I did to restore her MA to 4 after the Gear/Augmentations Purchase Stage does work then (according to Gradivis' post it is legal).
-
...and I'm not a fan of Min Maxing at all. I like a more balanced character so that she's no just "a one trick pony".
A does not automatically lead to B in this case.
-
And, as I mentioned before, Aspected characters can take:
Home Ground: Acclimated which is changed in Street Grimoire to:
ACCLIMATED
This is a benefit of the Home Ground quality (p. 74, SR5). The
quality allows characters to ignore the customary background
count of an area, and only count half of the background count tied
to temporary events.
So in most of the CZ you would have no penalties only in the places that flucuate the BC upwards.
So, while playing an Aspected character in Chicago isn't the same as most places... the penalties of BC can be mitigated to a degree.
-
I don't think it's only for Aspected Magicians. The discussion in Acclimated is about aspected mana (which is the narrative basis for BC) not about particular kinds of "aspected spellcasters" as described in the chargen chapter.
-
Home ground specifically states it's an area the size of a few blocks. Much smaller than the CZ.
Then again, per p. 31 of the Street Grimore under Acclimation: "Teotihuacan magicians are used to the pollution, so it doesn’t affect their spellcasting—or at least, it doesn’t affect them the way it would affect a tourist." And in the Red Box above that section " Examples: Teotihuacan (Rating 4)"
So apparently you can Acclimate to a City wide background count of 4. But not if you're a PCs in Missions play in the CZ, because, presumably you've been in Chicago more than two weeks and should have Acclimated.
RAW and the Missions rules directly contradict each other, so it's totally a GM call on Acclimation.
Personally I suspect the un-acclimatable Background Count in missions play is a Meta Balance issue used to club the horde of Mystic Adepts that show up to Missions play, YMMV.
-
Even had enough to get a Weapon Focus 4 (which she needs to earn Karma to bond).
Unfortunately, you wouldn't be able to purchase a Weapon Focus 4 at chargen unless you used Restricted Gear. Weapon Foci are Availability Rating * 4. So you'd have to cap at 3, which is still plenty good for the CZ. Just not in the Bug Hives, but what is, really?
-
I don't think it's only for Aspected Magicians. The discussion in Acclimated is about aspected mana (which is the narrative basis for BC) not about particular kinds of "aspected spellcasters" as described in the chargen chapter.
I meant Awakened but wrote Aspected... such a spaz I am. :P
-
Even had enough to get a Weapon Focus 4 (which she needs to earn Karma to bond).
Unfortunately, you wouldn't be able to purchase a Weapon Focus 4 at chargen unless you used Restricted Gear. Weapon Foci are Availability Rating * 4. So you'd have to cap at 3, which is still plenty good for the CZ. Just not in the Bug Hives, but what is, really?
...whoops, you're right. My bad. Tried to spend the as much of the 275,000¥ I could to get it under 5,000¥ before committing the character to Career Mode. She has pretty much everything else she needs. including Bio and Genemods.
-
Home ground specifically states it's an area the size of a few blocks. Much smaller than the CZ.
Then again, per p. 31 of the Street Grimore under Acclimation: "Teotihuacan magicians are used to the pollution, so it doesn’t affect their spellcasting—or at least, it doesn’t affect them the way it would affect a tourist." And in the Red Box above that section " Examples: Teotihuacan (Rating 4)"
So apparently you can Acclimate to a City wide background count of 4. But not if you're a PCs in Missions play in the CZ, because, presumably you've been in Chicago more than two weeks and should have Acclimated.
RAW and the Missions rules directly contradict each other, so it's totally a GM call on Acclimation.
Personally I suspect the un-acclimatable Background Count in missions play is a Meta Balance issue used to club the horde of Mystic Adepts that show up to Missions play, YMMV.
...yeah, first initiation, KK's going for Adept Centering. so at least she can use most of her Combat Sense power and actually get a better chance to hit stuff with her Weapon Focus. After she initiates again, she could at least counter the base background count.
-
Home ground specifically states it's an area the size of a few blocks. Much smaller than the CZ.
Then again, per p. 31 of the Street Grimore under Acclimation: "Teotihuacan magicians are used to the pollution, so it doesn’t affect their spellcasting—or at least, it doesn’t affect them the way it would affect a tourist." And in the Red Box above that section " Examples: Teotihuacan (Rating 4)"
So apparently you can Acclimate to a City wide background count of 4. But not if you're a PCs in Missions play in the CZ, because, presumably you've been in Chicago more than two weeks and should have Acclimated.
RAW and the Missions rules directly contradict each other, so it's totally a GM call on Acclimation.
Personally I suspect the un-acclimatable Background Count in missions play is a Meta Balance issue used to club the horde of Mystic Adepts that show up to Missions play, YMMV.
You also have to consider that Acclimated in Street Grimoire works differently than the main book and presumably since SG s newer than the core book it has the right mechanics for how it works.
-
...but wouldn't you still need the "Home Ground" quality (seems to infer that in the example on page 32)?
-
Yes, you need the Home Ground quality. I wasn't trying to imply otherwise...only that the mechanics of Homeground(Acclimated) has changed somewhat.
-
...so, if I had the 10 karma to spare for the quality, she could be acclimated to the base BCG of 2 in the city and CZ no matter where she went?
Unfortunately I'm not sure if Missions allows this from what I heard.
-
Unfortunately I'm not sure if Missions allows this from what I heard.
Don't see anything that indicates otherwise. As a GM, I would couple it with a requirement that you actually live inside the CZ to get the benefit. And probably cap the highest lifestyle available in the CZ as Low (unless you can give me a canon area where Middle or higher makes sense).
-
Unfortunately I'm not sure if Missions allows this from what I heard.
Don't see anything that indicates otherwise. As a GM, I would couple it with a requirement that you actually live inside the CZ to get the benefit. And probably cap the highest lifestyle available in the CZ as Low (unless you can give me a canon area where Middle or higher makes sense).
How about a mostly derelict building but with an intact basement you use for an apartment... and like the guys in Coming to America you spend good nuyen to fix up that basement and pay off the local gangers to make sure nobody bothers your crib. In addition you make trips occasionally out of the CZ to eat at a restaurant or catch a show. Could this qualify as a Middle Lifestyle with the right qualities added to it?
Of course you could make it easy and be a Hobo with a Shotgun.
-
...a Low lifestyle she could handle (actually has enough for middle, but don't see that happening in the CZ). Living in the back alleys (especially with an allergy) as the Hobo with a Shotgun quality requires, she would end up having to make a fatigue test at the start of every session against a threshold of 5. It would effectively be trading one negative modifier for another.
Again I'd have to swap two really useful PQs (Catlike and Agile Defender) to get the 10 Karma needed for Home Ground.
However, just ran into another snag as I was informed by a fellow member of our Missions group that she would also need the Arcana skill in order to initiate (something she never had to worry about under the previous editions). Just don't have the extra SPs for that without sacrificing her other skills. Beginning to look like a hybrid Bio Adept is not as good a solution as I thought it would be.
Kind of disappointed by all this. I like adepts, but this background count thing really cripples them.
-
Arcana 1 is 5 karma after character creation, so it is not that bad.
-
Arcana 1 is 5 karma after character creation, so it is not that bad.
2 karma, so it is even better.
-
Oophs, I for some reason thought active skills cost 5*new rating.
-
...yeah 2 Karma for Arcana 1, but that only gives her a pool of 6 which won't get her past grade 3. The best option, which was mentioned by a member of my Missions group, would be to take Arcana at 1 and specialise in "Intiation Rite" or something like that. That would only be 9 total Karma instead of 12 (or two Skill points at chargen) to get 3 dice to the pool. This would give her a pool of 8 with the skill (based on a 5 Intuition) which would get her as far as grade 5. before having to raise the skill again.
Opted for the two skill points at chargen taking 1 each from her Longarms (Sniper) and Pistols (Revolvers) as she still has a total pool in both of 13 (15) with her smartlinks. Also learning a specialisation with Karma takes a month and she'll be spending a lot of "downtime" (which cannot be interrupted) initiating as it takes a month x grade.
-
It's gonna take months of OOC time to get the XP needed for grade 3. I wouldn't worry about it so much.
-
It's gonna take months of OOC time to get the XP needed for grade 3. I wouldn't worry about it so much.
Yeah. Grade 1 = 13 karma, Grade 2 = 16 karma, Grade 3 = 19 karma, so a total of 48 karma? You get from 5-7 karma on a normal Missions session. If you clear a Missions session a week, that's still over 2 months of real time.
-
Glad someone else posted the math on this. My current character has something like 70ish total karma and only just initiated his second time. 3 initiations will take a long while in both real world and in game, so don't sweat only 3 for now.
-
...with 3 grades she will have Adept centering and an extra 2 PPs (or one PP and a Magic of 5).
The big issue is the downtime needed for completing each initiation:
Grade 1 = 1 month
Grade 2 = 2 months
Grade 3 = 3 months
...for a total of 6 months of character time. Also, one has to totally commit to the process of intitiating without interruption. So no going off on jobs like you can do while improving a skill or increasing an attribute.
Just finished with tonight's session and she version did a lot better than the Essence 6 version. I ended up taking Resoruces at D: and Skills at B: so only got Smartlink, Technochromatic vision, and Orthoskin 2 (didn't have enough for the Synch Genetech, but that is on the list) Total essence cost .8 Which left her with a Magic of 4 after applying the one Special attribute point to raise it to 5. Yeah, would have been nice to have that 8 Agility, but her skills were better and she could always get something like Attribute Boost - Agility after initiating.
With the Karma and nuyen she already earned as well as what she got tonight (also had 7 unused after chargen) she was able to get a weapon focus 4 through one of her contacts.which she is taking the week of downtime to bond.
I think this version of her works pretty well.
-
That rule for initiation not being able to do other jobs is totally ridiculous.
If you're playing in missions it seems like they build in downtime which can help, otherwise that is needlessly punitive.
-
The recent change to downtime in the FAQ makes it much more palatable, assuming you don't have an adept with a Luxury Lifestyle.
-
I recommend pre-spending Edge on your Initiation check. That means you should end up only spending a month per initiation. Remember that it's an Arcana + Intuition (Grade, 1 month) test, so if you get three hits on the first test for Grade 3, it only takes one month.
That said, your other solid option is to get up to a dice pool of 8 with Arcana + Intuition. If you spend 7 karma to get a specialization in Initiation (if your GM approves)*. Otherwise, you can spend 10 karma to get the skill up to 3.
* Arcana lists spell design, focus design and spirit formulas as it's specialties.
-
Specialties listed are examples, not an exhaustive list.
-
Specialties listed are examples, not an exhaustive list.
Please source that claim
-
Specialties listed are examples, not an exhaustive list.
Please source that claim
Page 314 of the CRB lists "Numinous Perception" as a Specialization of Perception not covered under the skills section on page 133 of the same. It's certainly not a smoking gun, but it would imply that the list of Specializations are not exhaustive. I'd say it's a GM call to make sure that Specializations are not abusive.
-
Specialties listed are examples, not an exhaustive list.
Please source that claim
A) it's been that way since Ed 3 (IIRC)
B)
Check f.E Pistols
------------------
Pistols
This skill category includes all types of handheld pistols,
including tasers, single-shots, semi-automatics,
and revolvers.
Default: Yes
Skill Group: Firearms
Specializations: Holdouts, Revolvers, Semi-
Automatics, Tasers
-------------
Hold-Out and Taser as special.,but not Light Pistols or Heavy Pistols ? ;)
or Hacking
There is no "Hacking on the fly" even though the Decker Archtype has it
Hough!
Medicineman
-
Missions specifies the ones in the book or "one that's similar" so in this instance, going outside RAW seems to be tacitly approved.
-
I recommend pre-spending Edge on your Initiation check. That means you should end up only spending a month per initiation. Remember that it's an Arcana + Intuition (Grade, 1 month) test, so if you get three hits on the first test for Grade 3, it only takes one month.
That said, your other solid option is to get up to a dice pool of 8 with Arcana + Intuition. If you spend 7 karma to get a specialization in Initiation (if your GM approves)*. Otherwise, you can spend 10 karma to get the skill up to 3.
* Arcana lists spell design, focus design and spirit formulas as it's specialties.
...not sure if in Missions you can use edge during downtime tests. Actually the cost for a straight 3 skill rating is 12: 2 + 4 + 6 (unless you have the Jack of all Trades Quality, then it's 9). The person who suggested doing so is also one of our Missions group's GMs.
-
The recent change to downtime in the FAQ makes it much more palatable, assuming you don't have an adept with a Luxury Lifestyle.
...KK's Lifestyle is Low, so yeah, not much of an issue.
-
Missions specifies the ones in the book or "one that's similar" so in this instance, going outside RAW seems to be tacitly approved.
...for a straight Adept, it would make sense to have some kind of specialisation that could be used for Initiation as other than that, the skill is pretty useless since they don't cast spells, create foci, or summon spirits.
-
Specialties listed are examples, not an exhaustive list.
Please source that claim
A) it's been that way since Ed 3 (IIRC)
B) Check f.E Pistols
Hold-Out and Taser as special.,but not Light Pistols or Heavy Pistols ? ;)
or Hacking
There is no "Hacking on the fly" even though the Decker Archtype has it
a) Doesn't matter. 5E isn't 4A, 3E or any other previous edition.
b1) Arguably not sufficiently different to warrant their own specs
b2) Most of the archetypes have errors.
I'm not claiming it's wrong to have specs not listed, I'm just trying to work with what the rules explicitly say.
-
...not sure if in Missions you can use edge during downtime tests. Actually the cost for a straight 3 skill rating is 12: 2 + 4 + 6 (unless you have the Jack of all Trades Quality, then it's 9). The person who suggested doing so is also one of our Missions group's GMs.
You can, but then it's marked off at the beginning of the next session. It's basically for things like binding spirits where you wouldn't have a chance otherwise.
I apologize on the math there. I thought KK already had Arcana 1 and therefore only needed to go from 1->3, which is 10.
-
...nah on the advice of several members of my group I ditched it and put the points to her Pistols & Longarms skills. With an Intuition of 5, just getting it at 1 (2 Karma) will suffice for a couple initiations when she's ready. So curious, if she gets more than 1 hit, does that reduce the time? I know it probably is somewhere in the book but of course, not where one would expect it to be.
-
Specialties listed are examples, not an exhaustive list.
Please source that claim
Source where the book says those are an exhaustive list. :P
-
Specialties listed are examples, not an exhaustive list.
Please source that claim
Source where the book says those are an exhaustive list. :P
Implicit from this bit (p. 89): "Full descriptions of skills and their specializations are found in the Skills chapter (p. 128)."
Wouldn't be full descriptions if they were only examples (without being called out as only being such).
Also, without this assumption, you'd be able to specialize in exotic ranged weapons.
Beyond this, and the fact that the listed specializations by each skill appears to be a fairly thorough list, I can't prove a negative.
-
So curious, if she gets more than 1 hit, does that reduce the time? I know it probably is somewhere in the book but of course, not where one would expect it to be.
I can't find anything to support reducing the time, so I would say that there is no way to decrease it outside of maybe Street Grimoire initiation things, but I think those are all longer, if anything.
-
...all the more Arcana sounds like an extremely limited use skill for the SP/Karma cost for a non spellcasting Adept as it only comes into play for initiation and nothing else.
The cost for for rating 3 is almost the cost for the first grade of initiation without a a Group and/or Ordeal.
-
Specialties listed are examples, not an exhaustive list.
Please source that claim
Source where the book says those are an exhaustive list. :P
Implicit from this bit (p. 89): "Full descriptions of skills and their specializations are found in the Skills chapter (p. 128)."
Wouldn't be full descriptions if they were only examples (without being called out as only being such).
Also, without this assumption, you'd be able to specialize in exotic ranged weapons.
Beyond this, and the fact that the listed specializations by each skill appears to be a fairly thorough list, I can't prove a negative.
P. 147 has a 'Devising new skills' subchapter. If you are allowed to add new skills it is only logical to assume that the same goes for specialisations.
-
...all the more Arcana sounds like an extremely limited use skill for the SP/Karma cost for a non spellcasting Adept as it only comes into play for initiation and nothing else.
In home games, I sometimes allow other skills to be used for Adepts. Survival, possibly a certain knowledge skill about their 'way', etc. Clearly, this can't apply in Missions.
The craziest thing is that Technomancers take no time to Submerge. They spend the karma and boom, they've submerged. No walking the ways, no intense study, nothing. Just boom.
-
Well, technomancer have it hard enough - no need to envy their small blessings.
Arcana is one of those skills Jack of all Trades was made for. Expend one Karma and never raise it again, but use edge instead.
-
...however that would mean swapping out with another PQ she already has, as well as having to pay 2 extra karma to improve any other skills that are 5 or above (like KK's Blades, Gymnastics, or Perception).
-
You can acquire JoaT later in game for 4 Karma - after all you have to earn some anyway for your first initiation.
-
...all the more Arcana sounds like an extremely limited use skill for the SP/Karma cost for a non spellcasting Adept as it only comes into play for initiation and nothing else.
In home games, I sometimes allow other skills to be used for Adepts. Survival, possibly a certain knowledge skill about their 'way', etc. Clearly, this can't apply in Missions.
The craziest thing is that Technomancers take no time to Submerge. They spend the karma and boom, they've submerged. No walking the ways, no intense study, nothing. Just boom.
...yeah, it used to be like that for Adepts unless you took an ordeal to lower the karma cost.
-
You can acquire JoaT later in game for 4 Karma - after all you have to earn some anyway for your first initiation.
...5 total Karma as opposed to spending 2 karma for the skill at 1? I don't see the "economy" in that at all, especially in light of the 2 karma penalty for improving skills beyond 5 that I mentioned above.
-
There are a lot of other skills you only need on very low levels - and you most likely won't improve more than one or two skills beyond 6 across your carreer. The costs are just to prohibitive at that level.
-
...still, it means replacing one of the character's more useful PQs. There aren't a lot of other skills she'd be prone to learning, especially those in the Acting, Influence and/or any technical groups as CHA and LOG are her lowest attributes (2).
-
JOAT is most useful for an 18 skill character that has high AGI, INT and/or CHA.
But if you plan on concentrating on raising magic/initiation and getting your primary skills to the 10+ levels, then no, JOAT isn't for you.
-
...that is the way I look at it.
For my Face Character, Jack of All Trades made sense. as she could pick up skills that supported her primary "profession".
-
I wonder if getting a Skill of 10+ is a Fallacy....?
( it takes 90 Karma to raise a Skill 6---> 11 alone .Thats a lot of Karma ! )
with an absentminded Dance
Medicineman
-
I wonder if getting a Skill of 10+ is a Fallacy....?
( it takes 90 Karma to raise a Skill 6---> 11 alone .Thats a lot of Karma ! )
with an absentminded Dance
Medicineman
Likely. Personally I think I could spend a couple hundred Karma before ever bumping a skill from 6 to 7 on just about any build. Magic builds can likely burn through 300+ Karma on Initiation, Foci Bonding and Magic increases before raising skills becomes cost effective. Just too many ways to increase dice pools.
Mystic Adepts for instance can get +6 Dice on Spellcasting for 3 Initiation grades. Much less Karma than 6->12 skill. Power Foci are essentially 15 Karma per level (6 to bond, 9 Karma for 18k Nuyen), basically the same as going from 6 to 7 in one skill. So, yeah, mages and Adepts will have cheaper options to raise dice pools other than bumping up skills for a long time.
For non-magic characters you've still got the bottemless pit of Edge or Stats to raise. If your Decker or Samurai can't find a way to spend 150 Karma on Stats and Edge you're not trying. Even the typical human Samurai with soft capped Int, Reaction, and 5 Edge can throw out 125 Karma maxing out those three things. +2 initiative, +2 Dodge, +2 Perception, and +2 Edge vs +6 on one skill? And with a +6 to one skill aren't you likely running into a cap at some point?
Yeah, raising skills past 6 are going to be either for the specialized or the long term mundane characters. Magic characters can increase dice pools cheaper than raising skills in most cases. Until initiation costs get too high or you've maxed out on Foci anyway.
-
Hobbes is bang on here.
Only exception is when you are hyper focussed on one specific thing. Maybe.
And joat rocks pretty much every build, IMHO.
-
I wonder if getting a Skill of 10+ is a Fallacy....?
( it takes 90 Karma to raise a Skill 6---> 11 alone .Thats a lot of Karma ! )
with an absentminded Dance
Medicineman
Likely. Personally I think I could spend a couple hundred Karma before ever bumping a skill from 6 to 7 on just about any build. Magic builds can likely burn through 300+ Karma on Initiation, Foci Bonding and Magic increases before raising skills becomes cost effective. Just too many ways to increase dice pools.
Mystic Adepts for instance can get +6 Dice on Spellcasting for 3 Initiation grades. Much less Karma than 6->12 skill. Power Foci are essentially 15 Karma per level (6 to bond, 9 Karma for 18k Nuyen), basically the same as going from 6 to 7 in one skill. So, yeah, mages and Adepts will have cheaper options to raise dice pools other than bumping up skills for a long time.
For non-magic characters you've still got the bottemless pit of Edge or Stats to raise. If your Decker or Samurai can't find a way to spend 150 Karma on Stats and Edge you're not trying. Even the typical human Samurai with soft capped Int, Reaction, and 5 Edge can throw out 125 Karma maxing out those three things. +2 initiative, +2 Dodge, +2 Perception, and +2 Edge vs +6 on one skill? And with a +6 to one skill aren't you likely running into a cap at some point?
Yeah, raising skills past 6 are going to be either for the specialized or the long term mundane characters. Magic characters can increase dice pools cheaper than raising skills in most cases. Until initiation costs get too high or you've maxed out on Foci anyway.
...the issue with adepts and increasing skills through Improved ability is Background Count. For the next two seasons, Missions will be in Chicago which means having to deal with a minimal Background Count of 2. That in turn means needing a minimum of 3 levels of Improved ability to get +1d6 of advantage (1.5 PPs worth which would be 2 initiations), Much cheaper to just raise the base skill at that point. which will not be susceptible to the BCG.
Qi foci would also be a waste as again they'd have to be a fairly high force (at least 3) to not be shut down. That too is a fairly hefty investment of both Karma as well as Nuyen. Adept Centering (requiring another grade of initiation) only offsets penalties only for skill tests, it will not keep a focus operating if the BCG exceeds its force..
-
For the next two seasons, Missions will be in Chicago which means having to deal with a minimal Background Count of 2. That in turn means needing a minimum of 3 levels of Improved ability to get +1d6 of advantage (1.5 PPs worth which would be 2 initiations),.....
Or get Adept Centering at Lvl 2 might cost a bit more Karma but is also more versatile ( If it is Missions Legal ;) )
and you can ignore the -2 from BGC
OR you just switch of the corresponding Power than you don't get a -2
with an alternative Dance
Medicineman
-
...Adept Centering is the first thing on the list when she initiates. Though, as I mentioned, that will help mitigate penalties to dice pools, but still not help with foci or other powers that don't involve skill pools like Improved Attribute or Mystic Armour. Fortunately she just picked up and bonded a Force 4 WF.
This is also why I had her burn out a point of magic so she could get a few things that wouldn't be affected by BCG like Orthoskin 2 and Technochromatic Vision (+3 to visual perception and effectively, low light vision).
-
...the issue with adepts and increasing skills through Improved ability is Background Count. For the next two seasons, Missions will be in Chicago which means having to deal with a minimal Background Count of 2. That in turn means needing a minimum of 3 levels of Improved ability to get +1d6 of advantage (1.5 PPs worth which would be 2 initiations), Much cheaper to just raise the base skill at that point. which will not be susceptible to the BCG.
Qi foci would also be a waste as again they'd have to be a fairly high force (at least 3) to not be shut down. That too is a fairly hefty investment of both Karma as well as Nuyen. Adept Centering (requiring another grade of initiation) only offsets penalties only for skill tests, it will not keep a focus operating if the BCG exceeds its force..
2 point BGC is a 2 point penalty that you're going to get tagged with on anything that uses magic (for example attacking with a Weapon focus). Doesn't matter where the dice come from. If you're raising skills that don't use magic, than sure, you're coming out ahead by raising the skill directly. But if you're raising anything that is already getting the BGC penalty, you're better off with initiation or foci. And for Physical Adepts you're likely looking at Qi Foci and level 3 is a pretty small Qi Focus. A rating 4 Qi Foci (+2 dice on any skill) is 8 Karma, 12K Nuyen, essentially 14 Karma if working for the man/working for the people, same cost as raising a skill from 6 to 7.
You should, of course, do what feels right by the character, I'm just pointing out the math for the readers at home.
-
...thank you.
Just does not seem as "cost effective" to get a high force QI focus compared to just improving the raw skill considering the constant -2 penalty. Were we in another location where BGC was only encountered now and then, it wouldn't be as much of an issue.
With multiple foci, one also has to consider the greater chance of Focus Addiction as the total force of all foci used is subtracted from the base 11 weeks. For example, with just her WF, KK has 7 weeks before having to make a test, not much of an issue. However, if she also uses a force 4 Qi focus on the same mission, that period is reduced to only 3 weeks so the risk of addiction becomes much greater. Somehow the thought of being addicted to a focus in an area where the effects of magic are reduced and in some cases even nullified, just sounds like a bad combination.
-
IMHO initiation and raising your magic is the way to go.
First initiation Adept Centering
Raise your magic for 1 PP of powers
second initiation Masking
Raise your magic for 1 PP of powers.
If you don't want any other metamagic, you can just do initiations (raising PP) until you reach the cap and then raise magic.
Qi Focus Addiction is only a problem if your active total Foci is greater than your MR.
So Qi Foci should be skills you use when not using your weapon foci....
-
My adept has one nearly always active Qi ffocus (Improved Attribute(Str)) and my weapon focus at F2, but we dont play mission, nor are we in that big of fans of this additions rules on background counts. I shut those off when doing most likely none combat things to have access to stuff like melanin control or linguistic power (for free rank 1 language learning) Qi foci. Will end up picking up more Qi Foci down the road. After raising magic at some point I will increase my weapon foci next.
-
Qi foci are often tattoos. Personally I don't worry about becoming addicted to my own Skin. *shrug* YMMV.
And, again, if you're already being tagged with a BGC penalty it costs less Karma for more dice with initiation or foci. If you've got a skill of 5 or 6 that isn't getting tagged with a BGC, then raising that skill organically one or two points is less Karma. Exactly where the break even point is depends on BGC and the skill level, but Foci/Initiation become cheaper for increases of more than a couple points even with the BGC penalty.
Oh. And of course specialization is probably a better choice if you haven't already. Just to be complete.
Side note: Magical Tattoos, anyone else play Planescape Torrment from Black Isle back in the day? Fun character hook there with the used Qi foci skin grafts or dried and stitched on somehow. May have to use that on an NPC sometime.
-
Qi foci are often tattoos. Personally I don't worry about becoming addicted to my own Skin. *shrug* YMMV.
If said skin triggers the Addiction rules I'd start worrying. ::)
-
...the character has several of her primary skills specialised (including a couple Knowledge ones).
Low powered Qi foci would be great were we not in a location with a persistent BGC. Not many jobs that the character's been on have been "out of town".
Yeah Missions does have more restrictions and does not allow houseruling, however the group I am in meets fairly close to where I live (don't drive) and pretty much offers the only opportunity to play on a regular basis. It also gives me a good opportunity to familiarise myself with and come up to the speed on the new mechanics as the last version I played/GMd regularly, was 3rd ed.
-
Remember the golden rule of character generation and advancement...
if option A is better but option B is more fun for you, go with option B...
an optimized character that's not what you want is not worth playing.
-
My adept has one nearly always active Qi ffocus (Improved Attribute(Str)) and my weapon focus at F2, but we dont play mission, nor are we in that big of fans of this additions rules on background counts. I shut those off when doing most likely none combat things to have access to stuff like melanin control or linguistic power (for free rank 1 language learning) Qi foci. Will end up picking up more Qi Foci down the road. After raising magic at some point I will increase my weapon foci next.
...true, Qi foci are great for those types of powers, unless you are in a persistent BGC of 2 where you wouldn't be able to activate them at all. Then you are better off initiating and just paying the PPs for them.
Part of the reason my character just shelled out 28,000¥ for, and 12 Karma to bond a Force 4 WF after the last couple jobs. Not so much the extra dice but the fact it ignores spirit armour. Can't always count on your sniper friend with the Barrett 122 loaded with APDS or Shaman casting that force 6 Ball Lightning spell augmented by reagents.
I agree, the new Background count rules are really harsh, especially on Adepts as they don't have other ways to compensate like spellcasters do (Reagents, Spirits). Adept Centring only reduces pool penalties for combat and physical skill tests. It doesn't let you activate foci that cannot be activated which are effectively shut down by BGC, reduce penalties for skills that are enhanced by Adept powers (like Perception), or using powers like Boosted Attribute.