Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: PauloAM on <11-13-15/0959:07>
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Morning guys,
I'm having a little trouble fitting a Sniper in the group. I need ideas for "sniper friendly" missions, so the player doesn't get bored with nothing to do. I gave him a Cavalier Arms EBR, which doubles as an assault rifle if the need rises...
I'm also concerned about mission difficulty for him, because of his range, most targets are caught unaware, so its easy for him to take out many foes. How do you guys handle Snipers?
I thought about having him roll for stealth each time he fires a shot, to KEEP his position hidden. I also thought about ruling that once the first target is hit, the others aren't unaware anymore, even if they don't know the sniper's position, so they get the defense roll normally. What do you think about it?
Thanks!
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Wet-work, guardian angel work (protection jobs), surveillance work, all of those should be in a sniper's bailiwick.
Well, the easiest way to up the difficulty for him is pretty simple; don't let him stay on his perch outside. Make him have to work for a good spot to fire from. I mean, a sniper as per the role is somewhat useless when you walk through the door inside, excepting the chance for windows. Upping the difficulty because they're shooting through windows is another option; shooting through glass is generally harder than it looks, and you have to penetrate it.
If he isn't running with a suppressor on his rifle, people should be able to spot him after firing. If he does, though... A suppressor generally integrates a flash dampener as well as the sound suppression. Make rolls to find him, but make them hard if he's got that; people would basically have a chance to guess where the shot came from to look that way. That's by the rules; real-life sniper rifles are not suppressed because the round breaks the sound barrier anyways, making the extra weight pointless. Subsonic ammunition is an option there as well.
I would definitely say if they see their ally go down in the first shot (or hear it) they aren't caught unaware; that said, there should be penalties if they don't know where the attacks are coming from. If they don't know, they can't defend as well. Maybe even have a few of them take cover from the opposite direction; when he shoots an easy target like that, everyone will have a better chance of figuring out where he is.
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Thanks for answering!
How does this look:
1) First target is always caught unaware
2) After each shot, roll stealth vs perception
3) Enemies who beat his roll run for cover in right direction and can roll defense for other shots. Next turn they can try and spot him.
4) Enemies who don't beat his roll...I dunno...what do you suggest? They panic and are still considered unaware?
Thanks!
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Just remind him that when he's off on a roof-top, he's not getting good matrix or astral protection.
Typical magician response to sniper fire, assuming they aren't dead yet: a) go invisible, b) send spirit up a hundred metres or so to get a bird's eye view, to try and spot the sniper, c) send spirit to eat sniper. And of course, sometimes they'll have a watcher or spirit on high patrol before the shooting starts.
Minus the going invisible part, if a rigger can get cover and send drones, a decker can get cover and try to lock the sniper down ...
Snipers are deadly, but they are not the only ones who can strike at long range.
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not to mention that if a sniper has line of sight to a mage, the mage obviously has line of sight to the sniper to drop a fireball on that position. The nice thing about fireballs is that you don't have to be very accurate. As long as the sniper is in the blast radius, he's going to be crispy. :)
Snipers are very good at surveillance, so he can do that instead of a rigger and his drones if you don't have that role.
Also make sure he has a secondary skillset which he can use, so you don't always have to include a sniper perch in your missions.
Thirdly, snipers get tired. If I recall correctly, modern police forces (like the FBI HRT) don't let their snipers operate more than 30 minutes on the rifle. Then they switch with their spotter (who is also a sniper of course) and they become spotter. So after a long time in one spot without moving, have his muscles cramp up (I'm not sure what to roll to see if it happens), make fatigue rolls which can give penalties, and stuff like that. The same you would do if someone wants to drive a long time without a rest.
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A full time sniper will be very hard to fit into most campaigns due to engagement distances typically being very short and often on the fly/ unpredictable.
I would counsel him to build a regular sam with a focus or proficiency in sniping so he can snipe when the opportunity arises (not very often) but otherwise function normally.
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Sniper is very problematic for rest of the team - typically he lack of social/b&e skills to get unnoticed to roof of the very high building , alsbo there is problem with palmprints, face recognition,cameras etc. Typically this is adventure in adventure to get sniper to right position, only for one shot. It's very uneffective method and kind of frustrating for rest of the team.
If player is typical lone wolf I would advise to have technomancer with high sniping skills and decent social abilities - this is most effective approach to be not a burden to the team.
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Depending on how you run your team, a trained Scout / Sniper can be a centerpiece of an operation. The team is important for gaining access to and securing the position. The movie American Sniper makes use of that a lot, especially at the end. Once your Sniper is in his hide and behind the gun you want to have a security team in place, especially after the shot has been taken and all hell breaks loose.
Ideally Snipers are not only highly trained Marksmen, but also trained scouts and stalkers. They could easily fill the role of a regular shooter if necessary.
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Also, as far as the Sniper getting to make all their attacks against people with no defense, remember the following:
Defenders are only considered Unaware for the first attack. Once someone is engaged in Combat, they are considered "aware" of potential attacks. See the text for "Defender Unaware of Attack" on pg. 189 of the Core Rulebook.
So, likely, if you're going after a big group, the Sniper might get one attack off for free, but after that, the sniper doesn't just get free pot shots. They might still get really easy shots (you get the +2 Superior Position bonus, plus the time to Take Aim and whatnot), but people are going to start ducking, taking cover, and whatnot so they still get a defense once they are aware of the threat (even if they don't immediately notice where the sniper is).
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If the sniper is a well-built character, the only issue should be giving him opportunities to showcase his sniping ability because if he's well-built, he'll be almost as good with some other gun as he is with sniping (or at least carrying a shotgun in case he needs to get 'up close and personal').
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My character (Spooky) is an ex-military scout/sniper. His main skill set includes sniping (Longarms), scouting (Perception,Sneaking, Disguise) , weapon repair (Armorer), and locksmithing. He is also capable at using AR's and Pistols, and can fight with knives (Blades) and unarmed. I can post the full skill set if it will help you see what i have done, and why I did it.
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Really the difference between a Sniper and a normal high Agility combat focused character is they have Longarms skill instead of Automatics. They should still have decent combat augmentations or powers, Sneak skills and a splash of B&E. The main problem will be the everyday carry weapon of choice isn't going to be concealable. The player will likely want to have a back up weapon of some kind, either melee or pistol for "walk around" and keep a Shotgun and Sniper Rifle in the truck of a car (or whatever).
Most Samurai and/or Adepts go with two combat skills, Ranged and melee. A sniper character will have the same options. Pistol and shotgun are decent runner weapons, with a Sniper Rifle handy for when the situation is right.
So unless the character is built really odd, they should be able to fulfill the Combat/B&E roll that most Samurai or Adepts do without difficulty. Setting up the occasional spotlight moment with the Sniper Rifle is fairly easy. "Guardian Angel" is a iconic tactical role for a sniper, and can be worked into most runs at least once.
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its not only on the run he can shine .
i woud advice against it (spliting up the groep once combat starts is a bad idee for the lone char ) .
let him shine during the meeting whith the johnson ( someone outside on rooftop to keep a lookout while the rest of the party is in the bar talking to the johnson ) .
once the run is done the exchange of the "packidge" is olso a good option .
if its done in a industrial/construction site mention a crane in the neighberhood ( so he can do the climbing/stealth for a great birdseye spot) .
backup during the recon fase of the run ( one person does the sneeking to place some cameras or other stuff while sniper does the overwatch ) .
its olso not only the killing part that makes him good .
add a run where thy have to shoot a line from one skycraper to another one and do the glide over a cable at 800m+ above street level .
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The main problem will be the everyday carry weapon of choice isn't going to be concealable. The player will likely want to have a back up weapon of some kind, either melee or pistol for "walk around" and keep a Shotgun and Sniper Rifle in the truck of a car (or whatever).
That problem has been solved by Hard Targets. With the powered easy breakdown mod you can have your rifle out with just two complex actions.
Still, the quickdraw pistol/taser should of course be present.
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Haven't read all the responses, but here's my take on things.
1. Every well-designed character should have more than one role. If they are hyperspecialized in one thing, then they're going to be bored a lot of the time. Plus, assuming a group of 3-6 players, there are a lot of roles that need filling, anyways.
2. Countersnipers. Basically, the other side has snipers, too. Take care lest the hunter become the hunted.
3. Unaware only lasts for the first shot. Once people know they're under fire, the situation changes (its just returning fire that gets difficult until they spot where it is coming from).
4. The other side isn't (always) stupid. If they know there's a sniper on your team, they'll set up meets indoors, for instance, or in public spaces where a sniper attack will draw all kinds of hell down upon the team.
5. Snipers are virtually useless inside office buildings.
6. Every well-designed character should have more than one weapon skill if combat is any part of their role. Yes, they may have a 6(+2) for Longarms (Sniper Rifles), but it would be really good if they had a 2(+2) in, say, Blades (Swords) or something. Yes, I am fully aware that a katana is not very concealable. However, especially in some parts of the sprawl, an openly carried blade is far more acceptable than a sniper rifle, even in 'decent' company. Same with a pistol or staff.
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6. Every well-designed character should have more than one weapon skill if combat is any part of their role. Yes, they may have a 6(+2) for Longarms (Sniper Rifles), but it would be really good if they had a 2(+2) in, say, Blades (Swords) or something. Yes, I am fully aware that a katana is not very concealable. However, especially in some parts of the sprawl, an openly carried blade is far more acceptable than a sniper rifle, even in 'decent' company. Same with a pistol or staff.
And longarms also works for shotguns (at least in 4th it did), so your sniper can also use his main skill indoors and at close range in case he/she can't do it's usual stuff.
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I'm having a little trouble fitting a Sniper in the group. I need ideas for "sniper friendly" missions, so the player doesn't get bored with nothing to do.
Throw some obstacles at him. I assume he will be playing a sniper because he likes the idea of preparing and lining up that single perfect headshot. In that case, my take on "sniper friendly" missions would be something like this:
The team needs to infiltrate a heavily patrolled complex and eliminate/capture/plant the macguffin.
The villain must not be alerted of the teams presence or else he will flee/execute prisoner/delete paydata/etc.
Every goon is equipped with a biomonitor, alerting every minion and mastermind about their demise whenever one is taken out.
Careful observation will reveal their routes and some snooping will reveal their RDO procedures.
The team hacker would most likely need to hack those biomonitors and communication devices one at a time. Goons cant be taken out premature without alerting the other badguys.
1: Now the sniper would need to find an acceptable vantage point, and hold his trigger finger steady as the rest of the team sneaks into the facility. When a patrolling badguy suddenly gets too close to the team, thus jeopardizing the mission the sniper should be able to do some take aim action on the guy until he gets the clear from the team hacker. And only then should he do a nice red mist out of the goon. Preferably right before the goon rounds the corner where the team is holed up, so they quickly can grab and hide his body.
2: as the sniper has the best view from hos vantage point, let him guide the team around the complex. He gets a major vote on which goons to avoid and whom to take out.
3: Because of the complexity of the facility the sniper would need to change places now and again. (I would prefer handling this narratively and not by combat rounds). If he handles the various decisions/skilltests well he will reach his new vantage point without incident. If he fails some of them there will be hindrances like suspicious goons seeing his shadow/in position but only has 0,1 second to aim and fire at the goon about to walk in on the body of the astrally projected mage/ the target is now in a heavily obscured area making the shot difficult, yet still necessary.
To sum up, try to create a small minigame for each shot to be taken instead of having all the goons attack at once- as that will just lead to a: turn 1:take aim-shoot. turn 2: take aim -shoot. repeat ad nauseam.
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Let me point out that in real life, in the US Army, a sniper is primarily an ISR asset. ISR is Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance. 90% of the time, a sniper just gathers data. A lot of soldiers can shoot well, but a great sniper has supreme discipline and, from my experience, has an excellent memory and an eye for the smallest detail.
In the SR world, I imagine that snipers are not just good shots. They may have to be the spy drone guy. They may need to tell the face that the guy in the tuxedo to his left is watching the mark a little too closely. They may be the main legwork guy. I know a former sniper turned PI here in Texas who is great at what he does.
Food for thought.
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Indeed, a lot of people qualify as Expert marksmen. A Sniper, however, has to have extreme patience, discipline, and be able to work out extreme math in his head. Which is what makes them scary fraggers. Bullet drop, wind speed, humidity, curvature of the earth, and more goes into a sniper making an extreme range shot. And when they take that shot, the gun may be pointed thirty degrees to the right and forty-five degrees UP from the target, so that the bullet will land where it is supposed to by the time the earth's rotation brings that spot around. Being able to do those calculations in the field is what makes a sniper. Everyone else is a marksman who knows how to strike from cover.
And yes, trained snipers are people I NEVER EVER EVER want to be even slightly annoyed with me.
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Really the difference between a Sniper and a normal high Agility combat focused character is they have Longarms skill instead of Automatics.
For me there is little difference other than having Longarms in addition to Pistols. I tend not to take Automatics unless I'm taking the entire group.
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Let me point out that in real life, in the US Army, a sniper is primarily an ISR asset. ISR is Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance. 90% of the time, a sniper just gathers data. A lot of soldiers can shoot well, but a great sniper has supreme discipline and, from my experience, has an excellent memory and an eye for the smallest detail.
In the SR world, I imagine that snipers are not just good shots. They may have to be the spy drone guy. They may need to tell the face that the guy in the tuxedo to his left is watching the mark a little too closely. They may be the main legwork guy. I know a former sniper turned PI here in Texas who is great at what he does.
Food for thought.
However, this is not the character being built in SR.
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As others have said a good sniper is more than just a high Longarms skill. He should have good pools with Sneak, athletics skills to get to his nest, if military trained probably some outdoor skills as well. Your sniper would be good at physical scouting and surveillance, could be the outdoor expert, or just be the guy with survival and navigation when you are hip deep in some Z zone and stuck there for a while. Longarms also covers shotguns, so he should have a good combat shotgun in the toy chest for those times you have to go down into the steam tunnels and kill a Nosferatu or something similar.
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Let me point out that in real life, in the US Army, a sniper is primarily an ISR asset. ISR is Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance. 90% of the time, a sniper just gathers data. A lot of soldiers can shoot well, but a great sniper has supreme discipline and, from my experience, has an excellent memory and an eye for the smallest detail.
In the SR world, I imagine that snipers are not just good shots. They may have to be the spy drone guy. They may need to tell the face that the guy in the tuxedo to his left is watching the mark a little too closely. They may be the main legwork guy. I know a former sniper turned PI here in Texas who is great at what he does.
Food for thought.
All true, this is why my sniper character as a math SPU, mnemonic enhancers, and a fleet of spy drones. He pulls the trigger on his Ranger Arms maybe once every third run or so, but he's always handy.
However, this is not the character being built in SR.
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2. Countersnipers (https://www.pinterest.com/pin/533465518332421357/). Basically, the other side has snipers, too. Take care lest the hunter become the hunted.
;D
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I've skimmed this, so apologies if I repeat anything.
My campaign has a sniper in the team. So far she's had 1 true sniping opportunity and that was at a contact meet. She managed to take out a target that had 12 body and 16 armour in one shot. I ruled that the target was unaware of her presence, so no dodge roll.
I convinced her to invest in a shotgun because it also uses the Longarms skill. She's chosen to use slugs rather than shot (flechette rules). If you've ever played Shadowrun Returns: Dragonfall, Eiger uses a sniper rifle/shotgun combination. Since then, she's found that the shotgun gives her ability to do plenty of damage in the field at shorter ranges.
Another important thing is that I've let her use a Longarms + Intuition check for identifying potential sniper hides, allowing her to scout ahead for herself and for the team's protection.
In short, our sniper's roles are:
- Providing cover for the team when they meet contacts or proceed into dangerous areas
- Assessing the potential danger from other snipers
- Countering other snipers
- Putting the hurt on in normal range combat
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You're doing it right, Jaguar.
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I myself favor longarms for the shotty. the Auto Assault 16 is very handy as are the flechette suppressive fire rules. and as i have a crockett EBR as well on my roto drone that i can easily pull off for personal use i really enjoy the times where i can use either.
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Thanks for answering!
How does this look:
1) First target is always caught unaware
2) After each shot, roll stealth vs perception
3) Enemies who beat his roll run for cover in right direction and can roll defense for other shots. Next turn they can try and spot him.
4) Enemies who don't beat his roll...I dunno...what do you suggest? They panic and are still considered unaware?
Thanks!
1) first target it always unaware but instead of a free hit, consider using the lower of a "dodge roll" or his movement (in meters/turn)+the number of the tier penalty for range. For example: Deadeye was hired to kill Doland Rump who is running for mayor of seattle in 2076, and deadeye is stationed inside a hotel with vantage on the park plaza that Rump's campaigning is taking place in today and is aproximately 625m away; Deadeye has a riffle with no range modifications. Currently Mr. Rump just stepped out of his helicopter and is walking towards the podium at a speed of 2 meters per turn. If he gets to the podium, he will be talking and stationary but the podium is providing Mr. Rump partial cover. If Deadeye takes the shot now, he will have to hit a threshold 4 (2m/t+2ranged penalty tier) shot in order to lead the shot proporly, or he will lose two dice if he tries to shoot while Doland is stationary but its at a threshold 2 (ranged penalty tier), Deadeye decides the stationary shot will be better and takes the moment he has to scan for counter snipers, and takes the shot once the speech is underway.
2)the remaining threats should be immediately aware although they cannot react to another shot unless they can tell when one happens. To continue: The shot rings out because all Deadeye has is a thermal suppressor. Rump is struck with a bullet and begins to fall backwards. Two of the three bodyguards rush to Rump to get him to safety and act as meatshields while the third begins scanning the crowd for potential shooters. The countersnipers were too busy scanning for snipers to notice their VIP is hit and they are too far away to hear the shot over the street noise so they are fully unware for the first round while someone is radioing to them that the VIP is shot. First full round: Deadeye domes one of the spotters for a counter sniper because he is stationary, unaware, and only a Threshold 3 to hit; the counter sniper, now alerted because his buddy is dead, radios that there is a sniper and begins scanning, but and can roll perception at the next shot. Meanwhile the other spotters begin scanning as well, one of which is outfitted with a thermographic scope which he uses to pick up the heat trail from the supersonic round (because thermal vision basically turns all sniper bullets into tracers, yay science) and tell his friend where the shot came from. Turn 2: Deadshot decides to fire at another spotter, not realizing his position is compromised, and pick the group that has found him, and takes a shot: but because that spotter can see the shot happen through his scope, he is able to try to dodge out of the way and manages to narrowly avoid death. Thermo-guy's friend fires back and Deadshot rolls dodge and gets away too, but, unfortunately for him, the counter snipers are using tracers and the remaining two groups quickly zero in and both fire as well; because Deadshot is looking through a scope not pointed at the other two, he cant react to their shots, but the well concealed vantage point means he only has to soak one round that cripples his right cyberarm. Round 3: Deadeye decides its time to go but first checks again to make sure the VIP is down for good and when he does so he see's through his scope enhancements that one of the Bodyguards is on a call with KE and likely calling in a HTR team and thinks he should slow them down first; Deadshot takes a shot at the man attempting to blow his brains out through his comlink: the man is facing, looking at, and knows where Deadshot is, but he cannot see what dead shot is aiming at or see when he shoots so the Caller is unaware and is a threshold 2 to hit. Deadshot strikes true ending the call and cutting KE off some information delaying the reinforcements by a couple minutes. Deadshot spends his remaining simple action and move action to duck out of the building and meets with his rigger and face in an alley who help him get past the road blocks and safetly away. A meetup later and the group score a hefty paycheck and about 20 street cred and 10 notoriety.
Hope this cleared it up.
As well, silencers are still good for sniper riffles as the crack doesnt travel far from the bullet's path and the silencer helps to not alert people in the building that there is a sniper there. Civilian noise complaints and all.
My advice to integrating snipers into most missions is that the sniper is firesupport and overwatch (and likely has the offsight hacker with him feeding the sniper data). Try to give the sniper moments where he has the drop on people and can pick the off to help pinned down friends (so use suppressive fire more) as well as limit him to times when he doesn't have line of sight because a wall or something is in the way. Another suggestion is to let the sniper pick a vantage point from a list you give based on the maps available to them and to allow them to vary the angle somewhat , like switching to a different window or area of a roof (or if the party can afford a helicopter, flying around the building). You might even be nice and give him a mission where the playing field is nice and open so he doesn't have to micromanage the scardie men running for cover.
[Edit: As well, it would be a perception (sight) to spot firing (but an auditory check could be subbed for those where the difference matters to determine the general location of where it came from) which for spotting most snipers should be ridiculously reduced because of A. distance (if its more than 500 meters away you have to be able to see the flash, you cant really see the person stand out at this point), B. every sniper conceals their vantage points (simply things like lowering the light in the room, hiding under a tarp, making the hole your firing through smaller, etc. should each take away a dice to spot the sniper), and C. any and all suppressors have flash reduction which makes distance even more of a hindrance. That said, you could make a sniper roll his sniper skill (alone) every round he is taking aim and every time he critical glitches (successes or regular glitches irrelevant) this roll, he accidentally glints his scope at someone important who gets a free perception check against just the sniper's stealth+agility.]
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Morning guys,
I'm having a little trouble fitting a Sniper in the group. I need ideas for "sniper friendly" missions, so the player doesn't get bored with nothing to do. I gave him a Cavalier Arms EBR, which doubles as an assault rifle if the need rises...
I'm also concerned about mission difficulty for him, because of his range, most targets are caught unaware, so its easy for him to take out many foes. How do you guys handle Snipers?
I thought about having him roll for stealth each time he fires a shot, to KEEP his position hidden. I also thought about ruling that once the first target is hit, the others aren't unaware anymore, even if they don't know the sniper's position, so they get the defense roll normally. What do you think about it?
Thanks!
I'm having a little trouble fitting a Sniper in the group
Besides the character being a "Sniper" can you tell us more about this character? Metahuman type? Background? Ex-military?
What is the rest of the group and for that matter where is the game situated? Are the group Runners or are they part of a Corp?
I'm also concerned about mission difficulty for him, because of his range, most targets are caught unaware, so its easy for him to take out many foes
Well fist the character going to have to get position.
The Opponents/target might get a Perception check for a "Human" thermal signature at range or light reflecting off the scope. Maybe with IR they can see any laser targeting device. Further if the weapon is smart and not in Silent mode Deckers/Technomancers will be able to see the weapon or anything with a Matrix signature (which should be just about all the character's gear). Heck, I can see a Johnson employing his own team of counter-snipers for a meet...
Or if there are Spirits protecting the "Target"? How about Security Drones?
Here's an example of today's tech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIkypcdcqmI now imagine what enhanced hearing can do.
If the character can get past all that to get their first shot off then that specific target is pretty much dead pending the damage done...
Inspiration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqQpRZxapIg or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzBTS6t60j0
In both of these examples note that the Sniper is not with the rest of the group.
Unless it's a controlled environment such as we see where the Police or Security detail the Snipers tend to be mobile. Take a shot then move.