Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: prophet42 on <11-16-15/1350:26>
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So, had some disagreements around the table over the weekend.
The one that stuck in my mind was about medkits & just how big they are.
I know that those with the lower ratings (1-3) are listed as being able to fit in a pocket - no problem there.
Its the kits with more capabilities (ie Rating 4-6).
The book lists them as being the size of 'a handheld case'.
Trouble is, there's a lot of size variation for 'a handheld case'.
I was thinking it was the size of a heavy pistol case (ie about 12" x 9" x 5")
Table boss & his usual crew are of the opinion that its more on par with a full rucksack of meds & gear.
Thoughts?
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There are advanced rules on that in Bullets&Bandages:
Concealability in parentheses
Rating 1: Large pocket (–2)
Rating 2: Small pouch or fanny pack (–1)
Rating 3: Large pouch or fanny pack (+0)
Rating 4: Small backpack or duffel bag (+1)
Rating 5: Large backpack or duffel bag (+2)
Rating 6: Oversized duffel bag or larger (+3)
If you are smart, you'll get a lined coat and install a rating 6 medkit as gear
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Thanks - not the answer I wanted but now I'm on the same page as the rest of the crew.
I'll look into that option for my runner's greatcoat
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Rating 6: Oversized duffel bag or larger (+3)
If you are smart, you'll get a lined coat and install a rating 6 medkit as gear
Hmmm, I'd think that an oversized duffel bag worth of gear spread around a long coat would make it look like you are wearing a parka, for how thick it would end up? (I know, da rules are da rules, but I wish they'd be a bit more consistent on sizing!)
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I had a savior suit (Dry suit with softweave 5000 capacity 6 with medkit [5] and Biomonitor [1])
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There are advanced rules on that in Bullets&Bandages:
Concealability in parentheses
Rating 1: Large pocket (–2)
Rating 2: Small pouch or fanny pack (–1)
Rating 3: Large pouch or fanny pack (+0)
Rating 4: Small backpack or duffel bag (+1)
Rating 5: Large backpack or duffel bag (+2)
Rating 6: Oversized duffel bag or larger (+3)
If you are smart, you'll get a lined coat and install a rating 6 medkit as gear
Keep in mind that Bullets and Bandages Medkits aren't the same as Core Book Medkits.
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Something else I discovered - B&B isn't legal in ShadowRun Missions (which is where this character runs).
Since B&B is disallowed, let's revisit the initial question - how big is a R6 medkit in its hand-held case?
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Our group have always had a rating 6 medkit being briefcase sized. We first made this decision back in the dark ages of 1st edition if I remember correctly and have never felt the need to change it.
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I was reading something this weekend that said rating 1-3 would be pocket-sized while rating 4-6 would be briefcase-sized. Naturally, now that I need a page reference, I cannot remember where I read it.
I actually like the optional rule from Bullets & Bandages, lest every single runner show up with a rating 6 medkit tucked under their arm, but I also know it's not Missions-legal.
Ignoring B&B for the moment, I might go with 12" x 18" x 4" for a rating 6 medkit. Your pistol case (12x9x5) would be good for a rating 4 medkit at my table.
Edit: Nevermind, I was mis-remembering the "handheld case" line from the core rulebook. I thought it said briefcase.
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Remember that portable medical kits are a real thing...
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Considering Chrome Flesh points out that a medkit installed in a cyberleg takes up 10 capacity and a smuggling compartment takes up 5 capacity then one can assume a medkit would be about the size of 2 bread boxes
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i wonder if it would be in the book that was released a while ago, DocWagon 19... havent had the time to read it yet, so if anyone has and can answer whether or not its in there...
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At a guess the R1-3 ones would be more like your portable first aid kits... R4-6 would be something like an EMT/Paramedic case.
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From a missions point of view the Bullets & Bandages size examples hold true for the core book medkits as well.
thanks.
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Remember that portable medical kits are a real thing...
They can't operate on their own, though.
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Unless you give them arms...
But we'll probably have to wait for the Rigger book for that.
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I meant that RL medical kits can't operate on their own. Shadowrun medkits can.
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I meant that RL medical kits can't operate on their own. Shadowrun medkits can.
Well my point being that they're at least a starting point, because hay 60 years of miniaturization at work.
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Minus two Matrix crashes.
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Yep - part of my initial query was wondering if the difference in Rating values might be as much based off of the more powerful expert systems vs having a more meds & tools in the kit.
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Yep - part of my initial query was wondering if the difference in Rating values might be as much based off of the more powerful expert systems vs having a more meds & tools in the kit.
I would argue that it is a combination of the two rather than a one or the other.
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Up until B&B came out, our table always used medkit's roughly the size of a satchel - in fact, it often was stored in a satchel. These days we are operating on B&B rules. Personally, I prefer an R3 upgraded to R5.
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Or use the handy dandy concealment table as rating -2 as the standard
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We houseruled that medkits can't work by themselves. Its just silly. How are they going to apply bandages, see the patient, put on electrodes, start an IV? We also ruled that they don't run at Rating X2 by themselves. Otherwise, whats the point in the first aid skill at less than 6. We just rule that you roll Log + First Aid + Medkit Rating. No wireless bonus. We decided it works like an AED. You hook up the patient, put in the IV, all while it is talking to you. We figure the bigger ones (4-6) have a some kind of endoscopy connections that you would hook up, kind of the size of a vaccum cleaner hose. it removes bullets, angry gall bladders, seals up leaks in internal organs, etc. Our picture of the size is more like baseball players gear bag, hockey bag, something like that.
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I've never really thought a Medkit can operate itself entirely. Either it's a box full of medical supplies for someone with First Aid training to use... or it's a box full of medical supplies with a Knowsoft installed that tells some random user how to apply them. But either way, there still needs to be a person handling the supplies.
That's why previous editions eventually came out with medical drones that can scoop you off the battlefield and fly you to a treatment center, while using robotic arms to doctor on you during the trip. Nowhere in the Medkit descriptions does it say they have tiny little arms to work on you in the field.
(http://cs.pikabu.ru/images/big_size_comm/2013-06_3/13709223605958.jpg)
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right because a drone with arms with auto soft able to do remote surgery or programed to do surgery or attach itself to a patient and adminsiter drugs to stabilize them is well beyond the scope of the 2050 universe let alone 25 years later
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right because a drone with arms with auto soft able to do remote surgery or programed to do surgery or attach itself to a patient and adminsiter drugs to stabilize them is well beyond the scope of the 2050 universe let alone 25 years later
Oh, it's totally not. You just don't get it for 500xRating. If you want that, you need to at least spend 5000 nuyen, but possibly 10,000 nuyen.
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SR4 had the CrashCart Autodoc drone, which was 4,000¥ and was equipped with a Rating 4 Medkit, and could immediately stabilize any patient hooked up to it.
The medkit includes drug supplies, bandages, tools, and a (talkative) doctor expert system that can advise the user on techniques to handle most typical medical emergencies (including fractures, gunshot wounds, chemical wounds, and poisoning, as well as offering advice for the treating of shock, handling blood loss, and of course performing resuscitations).
All that right there says it contains materials for a person to use. And if the person is clueless about First Aid, the medkit will talk them through it. But there needs to be a person there to attach the medkit to the patient at the very least.
The ability to "operate itself" is listed as a Wireless bonus, which doesn't necessarily mean that the wireless antenna doubles as tiny arms. I would imagine that is basically just the device feeding you pain killers through an IV, since the books refer to the medkits being attached to the patient, I'm picturing an IV and the finger thing for O2 and sticky pads with leads for defilabusting.
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I myself hold that the (talkative) doctor expert system starts by saying, "Please state the nature of your medical emergency."
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The ability to "operate itself" is listed as a Wireless bonus, which doesn't necessarily mean that the wireless antenna doubles as tiny arms. I would imagine that is basically just the device feeding you pain killers through an IV, since the books refer to the medkits being attached to the patient, I'm picturing an IV and the finger thing for O2 and sticky pads with leads for defilabusting.
Also probably using matrix information / processing to aid diagnostics and tell you what to do based on comparison of your vitals/what it can detect with millions of case histories.
Only house rule we do use is to not have a second limit on wounds healed based on First Aid skill. One limit is enough.
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The ability to "operate itself" is listed as a Wireless bonus, which doesn't necessarily mean that the wireless antenna doubles as tiny arms. I would imagine that is basically just the device feeding you pain killers through an IV, since the books refer to the medkits being attached to the patient, I'm picturing an IV and the finger thing for O2 and sticky pads with leads for defilabusting.
Also probably using matrix information / processing to aid diagnostics and tell you what to do based on comparison of your vitals/what it can detect with millions of case histories.
Only house rule we do use is to not have a second limit on wounds healed based on First Aid skill. One limit is enough.
<emphasis mine>
Wuxing had a tremendous overstock on heal spell formulas so the world court ordered a limit on how much a medkit could heal... I mean this is all apout the corporations sticking it to us poor folk.
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Bullets&Bandages p.16 explains the capabilities of medkits quite well:
"Published Shadowrun materials describe a number of systems that can deliver autonomous medical care using a variety of different terms: medkit, autodoc, stabilization unit, and more. All of these describe different medical expert systems and/or computers that analyze medical data and direct patient care. Medical expert systems generally fall into two categories. A medkit, as the name implies, is a kit that contains medical supplies as well as a medical expert system. Medkits can operate autonomously in a limited role by monitoring a patient’s biometric status, giving medications, administering gases, and more, but they often require a metahuman operator for hands-on tasks. An autodoc, on the other hand, is a medical expert system built on a more functional drone platform that is usually self-propelled and generally includes robotic appendages With these added features, an autodoc can perform a more robust range of hands-on tasks and is designed to function independently from a metahuman operator."
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So exactly how big is the Savior Medkit compared to the regular med kit. It seems like a tube of injectable microtech would be super small even if it required a constant stream of them it couldn't be bigger than a portable injector harness. No one at the missions table knew for certain and when we looked at it the text said it used the same rules as other medkits.
Why risk CFD if the medkit isn't even smaller
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So exactly how big is the Savior Medkit compared to the regular med kit
these advanced medkits combine cutting-edge nanotech and advanced expert systems.
The savior’s supply of nanites is limited, and it must be restocked every time it is used.
It's a single use nanite injector, and an expert system. What's an expert system?The medkit includes drug supplies, bandages, tools, and a (talkative) doctor expert system that can advise the user on techniques to handle most typical medical emergencies (including fractures, gunshot wounds, chemical wounds, and poisoning, as well as offering advice for the treating of shock, handling blood loss, and of course performing resuscitations).
The expert system is the thing that talks you through whatever medical emergency you're experiencing / treating.
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So exactly how big is the Savior Medkit compared to the regular med kit
these advanced medkits combine cutting-edge nanotech and advanced expert systems.
The savior’s supply of nanites is limited, and it must be restocked every time it is used.
It's a single use nanite injector, and an expert system. What's an expert system?The medkit includes drug supplies, bandages, tools, and a (talkative) doctor expert system that can advise the user on techniques to handle most typical medical emergencies (including fractures, gunshot wounds, chemical wounds, and poisoning, as well as offering advice for the treating of shock, handling blood loss, and of course performing resuscitations).
The expert system is the thing that talks you through whatever medical emergency you're experiencing / treating.
Right so the nanite injector is pretty small. How big is the Expert system? Does it still have/require all those other things? The drugs and bandages and tools I mean. Or do the nanites do it all and are smaller?
Is a Savior Medkit the same size as a Rating 6 Medkit?
Is there some other advantage to it that I'm missing?
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The expert system is the size of a 2070s computer. Most of the bulk of a medkit (bandages, other gear) is replaced by the nanite injector. I suggest reading the saviour medkit again for rule comprehension.
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I really appreciate the feed back. I looked through it again. I guess its just in the flavor that it sounds like it should be smaller than a R6 medkit. Here's the most relevant text I could get out of the book.
SAVIOR MEDKIT Originally developed by Shiawase Biotech but now available from several corps, these advanced medkits combine cutting-edge nano-tech and advanced expert systems. When activated, the medkit injects enough nanites to last five minutes into its subject. The savior then acts as a Rating 6 medkit and follows all the normal rules for medkits (p. 450, SR5). If the patient is bleeding out, the savior’s nanites act as a trauma control system (p. 148) for the duration. The savior’s supply of nanites is limited, and it must be restocked every time it is used.
sounds like it should be smaller... but then suddenly its still the same size as a standard one. I was really hoping to have something my cat-bugler could carry with her. I already have quite a bit to carry as far as gear goes and I was hoping for something that could go in an injector harness
Thanks again
The expert system is the size of a 2070s computer. Most of the bulk of a medkit (bandages, other gear) is replaced by the nanite injector. I suggest reading the saviour medkit again for rule comprehension.
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Wonder if you could put savior nanites in a auto injector
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The Savior Medkit consists of a bunch of nanites and a talkative computer, a R6 Medkit is the size of a backpack.
Since i doubt the Savior will inject several dozend liters of nanites into your body, I'd say its pretty small in itself. Putting it into an Auto-injector sounds like a really nice idea.
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I really appreciate the feed back. I looked through it again. I guess its just in the flavor that it sounds like it should be smaller than a R6 medkit. Here's the most relevant text I could get out of the book.
SAVIOR MEDKIT Originally developed by Shiawase Biotech but now available from several corps, these advanced medkits combine cutting-edge nano-tech and advanced expert systems. When activated, the medkit injects enough nanites to last five minutes into its subject. The savior then acts as a Rating 6 medkit and follows all the normal rules for medkits (p. 450, SR5). If the patient is bleeding out, the savior’s nanites act as a trauma control system (p. 148) for the duration. The savior’s supply of nanites is limited, and it must be restocked every time it is used.
sounds like it should be smaller... but then suddenly its still the same size as a standard one. I was really hoping to have something my cat-bugler could carry with her. I already have quite a bit to carry as far as gear goes and I was hoping for something that could go in an injector harness
Thanks again
The expert system is the size of a 2070s computer. Most of the bulk of a medkit (bandages, other gear) is replaced by the nanite injector. I suggest reading the saviour medkit again for rule comprehension.
I don't see how you get "same size as a regular medkit" from that. It functions LIKE a regular medkit, it has nothing to do with its size. I would also point out that a regular medkit has 6 uses between refills yet a savior needs to refilled after each use.
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So it comes from the The savior then acts as a Rating 6 medkit and follows all the normal rules for medkits. This unfortunately includes size. . It explicitly states that except for the way it inserts nanites which serve as a stabilize system that will persist for 5 min it will remain the same. I think that they had every intention of making this a smaller more portable yet still effective medkit, with the idea that this would give you the five minutes to make an escape to a place with a good medkit or a street doc or wait for doc wagon to show. But we're on as written rules for missions.
I love the idea about just grabbing the nanos out of the kit and using them but apparently they are interactive with the expert system which means that they wont be effective if they aren't part of an active medkit system.
Technically you might be able to link them to a bio monitor and have them work but I'm not sure that's missions legal or if you still need the expert system to decide where/what they do.
I really appreciate the feed back. I looked through it again. I guess its just in the flavor that it sounds like it should be smaller than a R6 medkit. Here's the most relevant text I could get out of the book.
SAVIOR MEDKIT Originally developed by Shiawase Biotech but now available from several corps, these advanced medkits combine cutting-edge nano-tech and advanced expert systems. When activated, the medkit injects enough nanites to last five minutes into its subject. The savior then acts as a Rating 6 medkit and follows all the normal rules for medkits (p. 450, SR5). If the patient is bleeding out, the savior’s nanites act as a trauma control system (p. 148) for the duration. The savior’s supply of nanites is limited, and it must be restocked every time it is used.
sounds like it should be smaller... but then suddenly its still the same size as a standard one. I was really hoping to have something my cat-bugler could carry with her. I already have quite a bit to carry as far as gear goes and I was hoping for something that could go in an injector harness
Thanks again
The expert system is the size of a 2070s computer. Most of the bulk of a medkit (bandages, other gear) is replaced by the nanite injector. I suggest reading the saviour medkit again for rule comprehension.
I don't see how you get "same size as a regular medkit" from that. It functions LIKE a regular medkit, it has nothing to do with its size. I would also point out that a regular medkit has 6 uses between refills yet a savior needs to refilled after each use.
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As far as I'm concerned there are rules FOR medkits and rules ABOUT medkits. Functionality is the former and size is the latter. If you choose to make things more difficult than they need to be then knock yourself out I guess.
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So it comes from the The savior then acts as a Rating 6 medkit and follows all the normal rules for medkits..
The size of a medkit (short of B&B's optional rules) is not a rule or game mechanic, it's a description.
Wonder if you could put savior nanites in a auto injector
I don't see why not.
Hard nanites use conductive tissue and other surfaces and UV radiation to communicate. They do not use the Matrix, and so they do not show up as icons in the Matrix.
Once introduced, nanites become active in about a minute. Nanoware systems are considered to be always active unless a nanohive implant is present.
I doubt the expert system and nanites are communicating. CFD prompted greater security in nanotech, and external to internal communications would be the opposite of that.