Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: halflingmage on <11-21-15/2150:19>
-
So if you have to choose one single target indirect spell, what is your first choice? I have always like lightning bolt, but it has the drawback that nonconductivity is probably the most common armor mod because of tasers and stick and shock. Fire attacks are kind of fussy with record keeping and rolls for a tiny bit of ongoing damage. Acid strips a point of armor, but taking someone from 15 armor to 14 just isn't that impressive. Thoughts?
-
The shaman in my game chose ice spear, because there are times when you need something solid ( to use blast out of hands, etc), so he was willing to give up useful secondary effects for the solid bolt. (but for indirect AOE uses lightning ball, as even when the damage it does is low it can have a good sized init impact)
-
Single target? Frankly, I tend to not like single target indirects, because they have all the drawbacks of non-autofire guns (that they can be dodged pretty easily), plus they potentially bite you whether or not they hit. Hence why for combat spells I always reach for Stunbolt and Ball Lightning.
Though if I had to pick, probably Lightning Bolt. Even if a lot of the damage is reduced, dropping initiative is great. Or Napalm.
-
I like clout
-
I think that Whiskeyjack is right. Against basic mooks these spells works but at prime runner level a competent enemy should have at least 13 dices in his dodge pool and with full defense 20. The probability to miss is quite high. If you have to fight against basic mooks at prime runner level, there should be many enemies => area spells are better. A combination of stun bolt, reagents and witness my hate is much more reliable setup.
My selection is Clout or Lightning bolt.
-
My selection is Clout or Lightning bolt.
Agreed
-
So if you have to choose one single target indirect spell, what is your first choice?
Have you tried bullets? I mean, shooting a gun is probably better than casting a single target indirect spell unless we are talking about extreme ranges. If I absolutely must cast a spell, I choose throwing knives+Fling.
-
So if you have to choose one single target indirect spell, what is your first choice?
Have you tried bullets? I mean, shooting a gun is probably better than casting a single target indirect spell unless we are talking about extreme ranges. If I absolutely must cast a spell, I choose throwing knives+Fling.
Being worth a damn with guns requires a very specific build for a mage. Your agility is often not a priority and skill points can be tight. It really often only works with a mystic adept build for the extra agility and the improved skill power. On the other hand, the elf magician I have been working on throws 18 dice for combat spells, and with a fetish backed lightning bolt can throw a force 8, 8p ap -8 limit 8 attack that in addition to doing damage has a dice pool debuff and an initiative penalty to the target. Its only 3 drain which he has 13 dice to cover. And its line of sight without range penalties. I don't really see how an Ares Predator is all that better.
-
So the investment with guns is huge, but the other investment related to turbocasting a spell that can be dodged as easily as a gun isn't huge?
Okay.
-
I always choose Clout.
Stun damage has more use than physical damage.
-
Never really get why people like Clout when Stunbolt is a thing you can cast at low Force, with reagents, and which Witness My Hate applies to, and get equal or better results, which cannot be "avoided" unlike indirect single target spells.
-
So the investment with guns is huge, but the other investment related to turbocasting a spell that can be dodged as easily as a gun isn't huge?
Okay.
Actually, its not.
I don't have to pick up a second combat skill for this. I don't have to find a way to boost agility. I do have a Force 2 power focus, but that helps every roll that involves magic, not just combat spells. To get to 18 dice its 6 magic 6 spellcasting 2 combat spec 2 focus 2 mentor spirit. So what am I committing that any caster wouldn't have? A mentor spirit and skill spec choice and 2k nuyen for a fetish. Thats not a huge investment beyond what any decently built magician would have. I still have 14 dice for all other spell types, summoning, and counter spelling, which is not bad.
And yes, a single target indirect spell is not always the best tactical choice. But neither is AOE or a direct spell in every case. If 18 dice is simply too inaccurate for you because it could potentially be dodged then I presume all the street sammis in your game walk around with a grenade launcher and nothing else? No point in a pistol or a good combat shotgun? Which is what you are telling me to use, despite they can be dodged too and i would probably have a lower pool with it.
So, as you said . . .
okay?
-
Never really get why people like Clout when Stunbolt is a thing you can cast at low Force, with reagents, and which Witness My Hate applies to, and get equal or better results, which cannot be "avoided" unlike indirect single target spells.
This trick works on special targets fine, but do you really want to drop 200 nuyen on every attack you make? That adds up fast and really cuts into the profit. Direct spells are good for targets too tough or too dodgy to otherwise hurt, but for smacking a run of the mill ganger or mall cop I think you would be further ahead with Clout.
-
Sometimes you want to fire off a direct damage spell not because you are confident on hitting, but because it is part of the whole team chewing through the target's dodge dice. You know those battles where cover is good, and the odds of anyone hitting are low, so you use the early actions to set up the final pass. Yes, AOE might do the job, but sometimes that isn't an option for reasons.
-
If 18 dice is simply too inaccurate for you because it could potentially be dodged then I presume all the street sammis in your game walk around with a grenade launcher and nothing else? No point in a pistol or a good combat shotgun? Which is what you are telling me to use, despite they can be dodged too and i would probably have a lower pool with it.
Nah if I wanted to have a gun, I would make a gun build work. I don't like guns that bite me with no real benefit over and above a gun. I don't see single-directs as worth it, basically ever. Combat is not remotely the best school of magic this edition (a marked change from 4e). Lightning Bolt is a waste against mooks and a risk of outing yourself as the mage with no benefit against anything that actually matters.
This trick works on special targets fine, but do you really want to drop 200 nuyen on every attack you make? That adds up fast and really cuts into the profit. Direct spells are good for targets too tough or too dodgy to otherwise hurt, but for smacking a run of the mill ganger or mall cop I think you would be further ahead with Clout.
If I am really worried about reagent costs, then my GM is a stingy bastard with run payout. Because if I really need to worry about reagent costs, then everyone else is really worried about ammo, and, meh, that kind of gutter-poorness over combat resources is not what I come to Shadowrun for.
Besides, I rarely throw combat spells. This edition majorly incentivizes sustained area debuffs.
-
Besides, I rarely throw combat spells. This edition majorly incentivizes sustained area debuffs.
It seems like they'd have a lot less impact that in 1st/2nd where they lowered the target number, which didn't take much to lower enemy successes by a factor of three. That was enough to keep the caster in my game from trying them, but what I'm reading is that they are still potent -- is this on a more generic 12 or so dice pool, or is this for specialized builds?
-
Generic 12 on Euphoria gets 4 hits, resisted by Logic + Willpower. On a normal mook, let's assume 2 WIllpower, 2 Logic, so about 1 hit. If you get more hits than the mook has Willpower, he's just out of the fight.
-
I don't like guns that bite me with no real benefit over and above a gun.
So you have a gun that has no range penalty within line of sight, debuffs initiative, can have a bigger AP than APDS, and imposes a small dice pool penalty on basically all checks? That is a pretty cool gun. Again with a fetish Force 8 is 8P AP-8 plus extra effects stated, for only 3 drain, and this build I am looking at has 13 dice, average 4 and 1/3 hits to resist that. Yes, once in a while you will get a little stun or a point of physcal, but its not like you are going to be laying yourself out all the time. Even if you go down to force 7 with the -7AP and the debuffs its still better than a heavy pistol in my view once you factor in the debuffs, and its only 2 drain.
-
Generic 12 on Euphoria gets 4 hits, resisted by Logic + Willpower. On a normal mook, let's assume 2 WIllpower, 2 Logic, so about 1 hit. If you get more hits than the mook has Willpower, he's just out of the fight.
I am not knocking debuffs at the tactically right time
but
Those are some really really mooky mooks. Even a pro rating 0 non-lieutenant has a bigger pool than that.
Debuffs are great if you are ganging up on a tough target. But I find that in many cases you impose a penalty on the target and take about the same penalty yourself from sustaining the spell. Thats ok if you are setting someone up for a team mate, but on some targets the cost in terms of action economy and spell sustaining doesn't really justify the two or three dice you are going to penalize them.
And yes, I know some people are big advocates of AOE debuffs, but how often do you get a group of bad guys to bunch up and stay put? If you are having a fight in a bar you are likely to get friendly fire, and you also just basically told the blade adept to hang back use his pistol because you have a chaotic world spell going.
As I said, not knocking debuffs in general, I like to have one on the list myself, but they are one option among many, not necessarily the first best option always.
-
Besides, I rarely throw combat spells. This edition majorly incentivizes sustained area debuffs.
It seems like they'd have a lot less impact that in 1st/2nd where they lowered the target number, which didn't take much to lower enemy successes by a factor of three. That was enough to keep the caster in my game from trying them, but what I'm reading is that they are still potent -- is this on a more generic 12 or so dice pool, or is this for specialized builds?
Well, it's a big opposed test, versus 2 attributes (unlike the 1 for direct combat spells) so the bigger the pool, the better the changes. That said, a lot of enemies aren't mental juggernauts.
A dice pool of 12 translates into roughly 4 successes on average, without consideration of dice spikes and Edge use. That's risky number of successes when opposed. But with low enemy pools that could translate to a -3 to enemy dice pools with Chaotic World, which is nothing to sneeze at.
-
I think that the biggest problem with area illusion spells is the need to sustain them. Which means investments on sustaining tools. Moreover, their drain is high. Or otherwise their radius is so small that if the enemy moves one step away, you loose the benefits.
So, you have to select between low force illusion spell or area combat spell. We can assume that both strategies have sustaining power (e.g. F5 focused concentration). I selected area combat spells. I can safely cast F7/F6 ball lightning/blast which almost kills/stuns everyone who stays on the area, they are difficult to evade (huge area) and no need to sustain. Drain is 4, but my drain pool is 17 (increase willpower sustained). Moreover, I can select combat spell specialization and mentor with combat spell bonus. And use also powerful clouts and stun bolts if needed. I think that the synergy is better than use of illusion spells and e.g. raven as a mentor spirit. In that case your stun bolt is weaker. Moreover, the willpower bonus is otherwise useful (higher full defense, better stun condition monitor, etc).
Yes, the best strategy is to have wide spell arsenal and use of many spell schools depending on the situation. But I still selected combat spell specialization and dragonslayer.
-
So if you have to choose one single target indirect spell, what is your first choice?
The premise of the thread isn't whether single target indirect spells are worthwhile, but rather that if you had to pick one which would it be. At the risk of re-railing this discussion, I'm going to vote for Lightning Bolt. The -1 debuff and hit to Initiative are both great, but what I really like about it is its suitability against vehicles and drones. Since they can't take Stun damage, they are immune to Clout. Powerbolt is certainly more subtle than Lightning Bolt, which is a valid consideration if you're trying not draw attention to yourself by going all Sith Lord on some goon, but I would still take the flashy spell with the nice secondary effects.
-
The premise of the thread isn't whether single target indirect spells are worthwhile, but rather that if you had to pick one which would it be. At the risk of re-railing this discussion, I'm going to vote for Lightning Bolt. The -1 debuff and hit to Initiative are both great, but what I really like about it is its suitability against vehicles and drones. Since they can't take Stun damage, they are immune to Clout. Powerbolt is certainly more subtle than Lightning Bolt, which is a valid consideration if you're trying not draw attention to yourself by going all Sith Lord on some goon, but I would still take the flashy spell with the nice secondary effects.
I agree with you. I solved this problem by buying also a weapon skill (automatics) with specialization. My weapon pool is 13 and I shoot burst fire (-2 to dodge pool). I think that it is also a powerful option against drones. A clout/stun bolt is useful, because if I need to stun (killing is not an option), I cannot use lightning bolt. But this depends on your table, in our table killing is not often an option.
-
I keep wondering whether a well--placed Firewater or Napalm would outright brick a car or drone but that seems to be somewhat ambiguous as to what constitutes an "exposed or unsealed electronic." I mean, sure, cars are designed to not stall when rained on, but force enough magic water through the front grill or up under the engine and it'll die. Likewise, I imagine most drones are designed to operate in inclement weather, but when you just sear open a plate then the water would fry their insides.
-
@Whiskeyjack
The napalm spell is not very well thought out. But as a GM I'd say: Yes absolutely, frying is what this spell was meant to do. ;)