Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: PJ on <11-27-15/2041:41>
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Been toying with this in my mind for quite some time, as I love this piece of cyberware. Came up with an idea for a retrograde system and wanted to see about any feedback from the good folks here. Thanks.
Retrograde Move-by-Wire
Improvements to the original system have taken it far, but some folks just want that extra edge and don’t care about the price. Or maybe some other folks wanted to make money and figured out a way to make it an option. Regardless, where there is demand, someone will find a way to supply. So, the older system has made a comeback. The retrograde move-by-wire is similar to the modern system more widely known in that each level provides +1 Reaction and +3 Initiative. This version has four levels, and at levels two and four adds +1d6 Initiative dice. Where it really diverges is in design implementation. The new system added a few safe guards that had the effect of making it a complimentary skillwire set, but also slowed down the seizure process to something more manageable. The retrograde version has removed these safeguards. This has replaced the skillwire ability with a +1 Agility for each level.
In addition to suffering the -1 Social Limit penalty for every level (due to the muscle tremors), users of the retrograde also develop TLE/x, for which they receive no bonus Karma and cannot buy off unless they remove the retrograde system (if a character already has TLE/x, they must buy off or replace the quality). The retrograde cannot be turned off (which can present problems in certain surprise/stressful situations), is not wireless capable, and is not compatible with any Reaction enhancements (magical, technological, chemical). It is also prohibitively costly in Essence (the metahuman body was not meant to be placed under such constant stress).
But its not all bad; street docs and corporations have lowered the costs to make it an attractive option for those unable to afford the more reliable system (or the safer version of wired reflexes).
Level Essence Availability Nuyen
1 3.25 6F 26,000
2 4.50 12F 51,000
3 5.75 18F 103,000
4 7.00 24F 205,000
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Essence cost are way to high, down right absurd, even with free agility augments as well.
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Level 4 costs 7 Essence??? You realize people only have 6, right?
Or are you saying they market products for the 0.0000001% of the population that happen to be born with every possible Quality that cuts down on Essence loss from implants?
"Come on down to Implants Emporium! We've got a fresh shipment of PJ's Move-by-wire in 3 convenient grades. And remember, if anyone knows Thomas Anderson, let him know we've still got that one Grade 4 waiting for him!"
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Level 4 costs 7 Essence??? You realize people only have 6, right?
Which would mean that it's not generally created by the cyberware methods of standard grade, though you could find a prototype / defective model / other if you had a use for it.
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The original system in 3rd edition was 2.5/4.0/5.5/7.0 in Essence. Cost was 250K/500K/1M/2M in nuyen. Until 4th, Attributes were not paired with skills, so the original also added its rating to all Stealth/Athletics pools.
The description for the new one made mention of the original system being too costly and invasive. I figured the new system installed safeguards that stopped the guaranteed TLE/x and made it more Essence friendly, but also cut down on its bonuses (and maxed out its level at 3 not 4).
I figured that there would still be a market for the original system, it would just have to be cheaper in nuyen to make it attractive as an option over the new move-by-wire.
And yes, the 4th level is only feasible with alpha grade (or adapsin and paired with biocompatability).
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Continuing my last reply...
When M-b-W first came out, it was the best in Reaction/Initiative boost (IMO) even with its drawbacks (which were not present/mandatory in 4E); not until 5E were distinctions between the three Initiative boosters (Synaptic, Wired/Enhancers, M-b-W) developed so characters would really have to decide just which way they wanted to go.
I was envisioning this retrograde version as an option for desperate runners, or something that was starting to see ganger use (as the first two levels are feasibly affordable for the more successful ones). It could also be something a veteran runner has as an original version.
The Essence is high, perhaps I could follow the new M-b-W and just make level 4 cost 6? What I can't tell (because I have no way to playtest/compare) is if this would still be a complete no go (no PC would want it), or too powerful (every PC would want it and deal with the drawbacks).
Something that told me the new one was good were the back and forth of folks. I'm just so enamored of the original 4 level version, I wanted to see if it could be brought back, following the same 5E logic of 'is this the price you're willing to pay?'
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There's a few of these threads going on lately... saying how the base game mechanics in earlier editions were different, and if those same mechanics were in play now, characters would have a huge advantage.
Guess what? That's why they made the new editions! It was to change the fundamental game mechanics, and balance out gameplay. That's why the new Move By Wires don't work the way the olds ones did. They did it on purpose.
If anything, call it a Retcon. Your character is 25 years old, and he's got SR3 MbW implanted still. One night he goes to sleep, and when he wakes up, it's 2075. Now he's 40 years old, and when he gets out of bed, his MbW work differently. Why, you ask?
(http://i.imgur.com/KuYnnCS.gif)
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Not to mention that just about EVERYTHING between editions is different.
Dice pools,
Damage track,
Damage codes,
Karma costs,
Matrix,
Initiative system,
The list goes on and on....
You want that nifty 3e crap? Figure a way to bring it in line with 5e.... (Oh, wait! Most of that crap has been! MBW 5e version!) Or play with the 3e rules and update the time frame.
But do NOT expect to take something from 2+ editions ago and port it directly into 5e.... that just doesn't work.
Geez.... its THac0 all over again....
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That said, whenever possible, I like to bring things forward in terms of name brands and the like. Make new stuff, sure, but never forget those what came before, y'know?
(Addendum: I should have made Move-by-Wire a 4-level bit of 'ware like before. Grump.)
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Essence cost are way to high, down right absurd, even with free agility augments as well.
I'm not going to get into whether this is needed or not.
Bioware Level 4 costs 7 Essence??? You realize people only have 6, right?
Or are you saying they market products for the 0.0000001% of the population that happen to be born with every possible Quality that cuts down on Essence loss from implants?
"Come on down to Implants Emporium! We've got a fresh shipment of PJ's Move-by-wire in 3 convenient grades. And remember, if anyone knows Thomas Anderson, let him know we've still got that one Grade 4 waiting for him!"
Level 4 costs 7 Essence??? You realize people only have 6, right?
Or are you saying they market products for the 0.0000001% of the population that happen to be born with every possible Quality that cuts down on Essence loss from implants?
"Come on down to Implants Emporium! We've got a fresh shipment of PJ's Move-by-wire in 3 convenient grades. And remember, if anyone knows Thomas Anderson, let him know we've still got that one Grade 4 waiting for him!"
[/quote]
Sarcasm, sarcasm.
Seriously..it just means that Alpha Grade is the standard grade for level 4... +20% nuyen cost, -20% essence cost
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Wakshaani, I really like what you did with it in 5E. While I was not a fan of how it changed in 4E (the skillwire thing, you can get Agility boosts elsewhere), it was still the go-to Initiative booster over Wired Reflexes. Now, each of them offer their own advantages and flavors.
Maybe they'll let you throw in an optional rule box (like gamma-grade) when the FAQ/Errata comes out that has a 4th level. THAT would be sweet!
And I disagree that I should not expect to port something from 3E to 5E. Does it require work? Sure. But to say it can't be done? Nah... What I'm basically doing is slightly higher Essence, much lower nuyen, mandatory drawbacks..., for what someone can get (or pretty close) with maxed out Muscle Toner, Reaction Enhancers, Wired Reflexes.
That being said, its really just a mental exercise. Most of this one boils down to, 'If I were a runner, would I want to spend the nuyen on said Muscle Toner, Reaction Enhancers, Wired Reflexes, or would I want to buy this and deal with the drawbacks?'
So far, I understand the Essence cost makes it no across the board. I originally intended to keep it close to the original and the new write up that stated the old was to expensive and invasive for widespread use. Nuyen cost has been dropped. If I drop Essence costs to 3,4,5,6, would that give some a reason to consider? What if the mandatory TLE/x was staged? The quality states 5-hits= minutes, so it could go (level+1)-hits= minutes.
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My whole point, plain and simple, is that you cannot have it work "the way it did before" because the fundamental laws of physics have changed.
It's not that a different company is making a different implant and just calling it "Move By Wire" to fool you. These are the same implants you would have got in 2060. Only now the secret code that dictates how the universe unfolds (https://media.giphy.com/media/A06UFEx8jxEwU/giphy.gif) around you has changed. And the hidden numbers in the walls (http://i.stack.imgur.com/zymAc.gif) do different things than they did before.
There is no store that is going to sell antique "Move By Wire v1" that will do exactly what you're expecting from SR3 rulebooks. This is the SR5 universe, and things work differently here.
If that helps, think of it that way. We, the players at the table holding dice in hand with a piece of paper that represents somebody in the game... are traveling to parallel universes. In one of them, technology never really progressed past the 80's. Futuristic computers still string wires everywhere (you're lucky it's not vacuum tubes and punch cards). And "Move By Wires" works they way you're expecting. But then you step through the looking glass, into a different parallel universe, where technology has WiFi, and "Move By Wires" does things a little different now.
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When the write up for the 5E uses wording to the effect that it was 'too expensive and invasive for widespread use', the 'inferior wired reflexes took its place' and 'though its come further than before, it still isn't quite the best' (or words to those effects, don't have my pdf right now), that tells me that yes, with a little work it can be like before.
The way I see it (in game), there was no reason to improve the system until Wired Reflexes could be combined with Reaction Enhancers. Once that happened, suddenly being saddled with epileptic fits in order to be the fastest didn't look like such a great option. So, they tweaked and peaked until it became what we have now; inferior to the original, but competitive with the WR+RE crowd. I think of it like an engine; the most powerful ones go through gas quickly. The more fuel efficient ones don't have the torque or the hp. There is always a trade off. In making M-b-W more survivable, it lost its power.
I also figured that the reason (in game) it now acts as skillwires is because when they toned it down to something more manageable, what once were pathways that were hard wired for Agility now were freed up to be utilized toward specific movements/routines (skillwires) instead of a general, all the time movement (Agility bonus). I agree that you can't just hand wave the wireless everything away, and if I'm going with the idea that it is 5E M-b-W minus safeguards, then yes, it would still be wireless. Just no reason to utilize it as there are now no wireless benefits.
I'm not looking to remake it exactly like before (none of the Initiative boosters work like they used too); I'm thinking that M-b-W became what it is now due to what I said above, but that there would be some individuals and some groups that don't care about its dangers and are bringing the older version back. And the reason its cheaper is because that is the only way to sell it. Otherwise, folks go with the reliable options.
Personally, I don't see a problem trading bad side effects and cheaper nuyen in order to get the same bonuses MT/WR/RE would give you. But I'm one person, which is why I've thrown it out here to get input from the community. Telling me Essence too high helps; telling me this is 5E and it just won't work doesn't. I need to know why it would not work.
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Please go buy a brand new 1999 car from the dealer.
What's that?? They don't SELL brand new 1999 models in 2015? Why not??
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Now that may sound like its coming from left field, but its actually exactly what you are saying. They have a MbW system in 5e. Its in the book, with the listed advantages and disadvantages.
What YOU are saying is: "but now this old system has been retrograded to a new system! But its different from the new, new system..." which makes little to no sense.
Companies invest millions to billions in these systems. To make a model, sell it, and then invest millions more to make a different model to sell in direct competition with their current model makes little sense.
But, It's your game. Do as you wish. But I wouldn't expect to find a lot of support for such designs from the internet. It may work just dandy for your home game however.
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Except there are people who buy used 1999 cars cause they're too cheap or don't have the money for a 2015 model.
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Except there are people who buy used 1999 cars cause they're too cheap or don't have the money for a 2015 model.
He's not talking about finding some 10 year old used piece of ware though gradivus. He's talking about NEW ware that functions like a 10 year old piece of ware....
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The reaction-boosting timeline is, roughly, this:
During teh food riots, Sam saves his Japanese boss from rioters by blazing away with his gun then, when he's out of ammo, grabs a katana and hacks a path through the crowd, saving his boss. Later interviews have him credit the swordplay to his practice of Kenjutsu and his personal belief in the samurai tradition. The media takes this for a ride and a wave of nationalism spreads.
Move-by-Wire is adapted from avionics, putting the body into constant siezure, but allowing for astoundingly fluid movement when put into action. Most test subjects die, and no one can figure out why. (My Essence, noooo...)
Sam winds up moving up in his corporation (Shiawase, a sit turns out) and even starts romancing an exec's daughter. His prime rival doesn't like teh idea of "tainting" a "noble Japanese bloodline" with dirty gaijin blood, even if he has a samurai's soul.
Shenanigans.
With his boss dead and evidence found that Sam did it, his rival has him arrested. He *should* be put to death (And is forbidden from honorable suicide!), but his GF begs for his life and he is instead put into the experimental reflex program. If he dies, good, if he lives, science! Either way's a win.
Sam manages to adapt to the proceedure better than most (It being an experimental version not quite as Essence-pounding) and manages to not only survive, but thrive.
More shennanigans.
Shiawase's home office comes in after the bloodshed, arrests what's left of RIval-San, gathers up the data, and declares the whole thing a wash. They spend a decade or more, bringing the Move-by--Wire system down from a IV to a III to a II to a I, eventually managing to create Wired Reflexes that are similar, but different, and even manage to create a "reflex trigger" that allows the user to shut them off an dlive a normal life, rather than being all-fast, all-the-time.
Sam has never been (officially) found. Rival-San has never been heard from again. Wired Reflexes become a smash hit, and later MbW is released, despite being an older system, finally in a state where most people don't instantly die from the Essence hit.
So, the whole thing is effectively built *backwards*, with the highest-end cyber being first, then slowly the engineers cut off parts, cut corners, and managed to find cheaper ways of getting things done. Sort of like how a Xerox machine used to cost ten grand, but today you can buy a printer-scanner-copier for your PC for under $40.
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Wakshaani, thanks for the timeline. That is cool.
Reaver, your analogy is close. It's more like I'm taking my ABS brakes on my bike and disabling that feature. Why would I not want ABS? Because I don't like the way braking works with it and prefer to not use it. And I'm willing to take the chance that comes with possibly locking up wheels in order to have the better braking option.
Continuing with that analogy, if it can be argued that a skilled rider is better at braking and thus will take chances by having ABS disabled in order to possess the better brake option (because all ABS does is prevent locking; it's a safety feature), it stands to reason that some would take chances with having the safety features (I assume are now built in) turned off for M-b-W, in order to bring the speed back up.
And tying it all together, if turning off my ABS (and returning the bike to its original braking mode) is as simple as removing the sensor on the bearing or flipping the bearing around so the sensor does not pick it up, I figured disabling whatever safety features have been implemented in M-b-W would do the same (return it to its original state); it would not require the system be rebuilt.
I appreciate the feedback, and get the general impression it's not well received. Alas, it's not my game (haven't played in years). This is just a mental exercise (kinda like making characters for fun), because I have loved that piece of cyber ware ever since it first debuted.
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I also find the opposition to this idea a bit excessive.
If you want to build a MbW that is mechanically closer to how it worked in older Editions, just do it.
Coming up with an ingame explanation for it is about the easiest thing imaginable, from canned prototypes to a base model that had to be refined to make it usable, almost everything is imaginable and can be tailored to the specific tastes of each table.
Mechanic wise speaking, you just have to make sure its not strictly better than any of the alternatives.
Balancing it for a product sold in the 2070s might be difficult, but I like the idea of maybe some old farts still running around with these.
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So, the whole thing is effectively built *backwards*, with the highest-end cyber being first, then slowly the engineers cut off parts, cut corners, and managed to find cheaper ways of getting things done. Sort of like how a Xerox machine used to cost ten grand, but today you can buy a printer-scanner-copier for your PC for under $40.
It happens all over. When I worked for Ford they'd just released the new shape Fiesta in Europe. It was so well engineered they lost $2k per car sold. Over the next few years cost was cut until they made a decent profit. If you want a second hand one, it's worth going for that first couple of years!
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Duellist_D, appreciate it (I don't think everyone here was totally opposed, some comments seemed neutral or geared toward calming, haha!). I agree in-game explanation is easy (and necessary); I get things changing in rpg's because sometimes things don't work; I don't get just hand-waving it and saying 'its really always been this way'. Because like you said, some old fart will have it and is going to say 'wait! I had four levels of this, was quicker, and no skillwires!'
I did go back and re-read the descriptions for skillwires and the new move-by-wire. I figure in-game (to go with what Wakshaani said), the reason it went from a Quickness boost (now Agility) to skillwires was the system got toned down to manageable levels. Skillwires talks about supplementing or outright overriding your muscle movements. I figure, the whole mechanism did just that when directing the seizure (and why it was so costly in Essence; muscles overridden all the time each and every time you moved); so they tone it down (goes to three levels and a bit more Essence friendly), and find out now that the user's muscles aren't being overridden all the time, it acts like skillwires. Still that pesky twitching thing though...
As I don't have a gaming group, I really had no way to tell if making it a four level system with Agility bonus was balanced with mandatory TLE-x, higher Essence, but nuyen costs lower than the regular move-by-wire. I'v already re-done it some.
Wakshaani did a great job balancing it to the other options compared to 4E; even back in 3rd, it was still the go-to option because as long as you took your drugs, no test needed. And even if you didn't take the drugs, the test (if I recall) wasn't impossible to pass.
Wakshaani, care to share what you would have done if you did take it back to the four levels? Anything special since the skillwires are maxed out?
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Well, it got tweaked from my original design, which didn't grant a bonus D6 to Initiative at all but instead gave a flat rate (I want to say that it was +2 Reaction and +3 Iniative, but that'd hit your boost cap pretty quick, so tuning that to +1 Reaction and +4 Iniative per level would make more sense. I'd need my notes!) so a progression, there, would have given the same benefit. Skillwires of 8 wouldn't have been possible, so some other bonus would have been put in there instead, like "+2 dice added to all Defensive tests" or the like. Not sure. I'd have to fiddle around with it and do some math to see what'd be fair.
With the current version published, however, it'd likely gain another D6 of Iniative at level 4 and that'd be it.
Mind you, I just woke up, so don't take this as the best of options. :) (Now, where's my SoyCaf to get going?)
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Posting BEFORE coffee???
That's dedication!
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Well, it got tweaked from my original design, which didn't grant a bonus D6 to Initiative at all but instead gave a flat rate (I want to say that it was +2 Reaction and +3 Iniative, but that'd hit your boost cap pretty quick, so tuning that to +1 Reaction and +4 Iniative per level would make more sense. I'd need my notes!) so a progression, there, would have given the same benefit. Skillwires of 8 wouldn't have been possible, so some other bonus would have been put in there instead, like "+2 dice added to all Defensive tests" or the like. Not sure. I'd have to fiddle around with it and do some math to see what'd be fair.
With the current version published, however, it'd likely gain another D6 of Iniative at level 4 and that'd be it.
Mind you, I just woke up, so don't take this as the best of options. :) (Now, where's my SoyCaf to get going?)
personally I would have liked:
MBW[1]:+1 REA +4 Initiative Skilljack[1], Skillwire[1], Ess 3
MBW[2]:+2 REA +8 Initiative Skilljack[2], Skillwire [2], Ess 4
MBW[3]: +3 REA +12 Initiative Skilljack[3]. Skillwires [3], Ess 5
MBW[4]; +4 REA +16 Initiative Skilljack[4] Skillwires[4], Ess 6
Not sure what would be fair nuyen costs.
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Gradivus, if you wanted to keep it simple, the first three levels could stay the same. Level 4 would be Avail 30F and 280,000 nuyen.
No post yet from Wakshaani. Do you think he violated corporate NDA and they got him? :)
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What, for yammering? Nah. This is all discussion about something already out and how people'd like to have seen it. That'd be totally different than, "OMG you guys, in Book X, we reveal that Lofwyr is made out of chocolate!" which, you know ... Bad Things would follow. And I LOVE this job! So, not gonna roll those dice, thankyouverymuch. :)
The tricky balance for the "No dice" version of Move-by-Wire was getting the bonus just right. If Wired Reflexes give you 1+1d6 Iniative, then Boosted giving you 4 (1+3) would be worse, while 5 (1+4) would be somewhat better, when compared to the average roll of Wires. The upshot is that you never worry about where your Iniative will fall, since it's reliably fast, but that you can sometimes be beaten to teh draw by Wires, which have variable performance. Since MbW used to include Skillwire functionality, it then became easy ... +1 Reaction and +3 Initiative per level (+4 total), making it a tad worse than Wires but with the Skillwire compatability.
Somewhere in there, either I goofed when I sent the stats in, using the old +2 Reaction version (most likely) or playtesting insisted that it get extra D6 Iniative. I'm not sure which, but I'm thinking I'm to blame most likely. I had both teh cyber and the bio sections of Chrome Flesh, and wanted to include a smuch of the 4th ed stuff as possible as well as new stuff, so I had to do a *lot* of work. A mistake or two got through, and I'm willing to lay odds that it was me on that one.
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What, for yammering? Nah. This is all discussion about something already out and how people'd like to have seen it. That'd be totally different than, "OMG you guys, in Book X, we reveal that Lofwyr is made out of chocolate!" which, you know ... Bad Things would follow. And I LOVE this job! So, not gonna roll those dice, thankyouverymuch. :)
So, is this a confirmation that Great Dragons aren't made out of chocolate, or just Lofwyr in particular?
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IMO, I don't think you messed anything up. As it is now, the system is well balanced against wired reflexes and synaptic booster (compared to previous editions). My line of thought was simply 'what if there was a level 4, and what if there was also a system that still made you faster (Agility/movement) but was dangerous (TLE-x)?'
As everything stands now, assuming you max out, the choices are A: 5.9 Essence/256,000 nuyen for +3/6 Reaction +3d6 Initiative (9-24 total); B: 1.5 Essence/ 285,000 nuyen for +3 Reaction +3d6 Initiative (6-21 total); C) 5 Essence/205,000 nuyen for +3 Reaction +9 +1d6 Initiative (13-18 total) and skillwires.
Each option now has distinct advantages and disadvantages that, depending on character, make them all viable. I basically took your ball and decided there would be a niche for what I proposed, and presented it here. I think there still is, but I'm only one guy.
If you were to go with a diceless m-b-w, I think +1Rea/+4 Ini would be the way to go. Each level would be flat +5, compared to +2-7 (avg 4-5) with wires or boosters. By going +3, it looks like you had to throw in a D6 or it really wouldn't be competitive.
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Gradivus, if you wanted to keep it simple, the first three levels could stay the same. Level 4 would be Avail 30F and 280,000 nuyen.
<<snipped>>
I wasn't going for what would be a fair 4th level for the MBW as presented in CF.
I would have liked it to have been diceless and so was musing about what a 4 level diceless MBW designed by yours truly would look like.
Though the change in the skillwires that I have listed probably wouldn't fly with most people.
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After you and Wakshaani mentioned it, I'm really liking the idea of a diceless booster. Reminds me of the two initiative boost options in Cyberpunk (one on all the time one not; because it was not it could give a higher bonus).
By keeping four levels of move-by-wire (and diceless), wired reflexes makes even more sense as a later development. Where the former would stage 5/10/15/20, the latter is variable (2-7/4-14/6-21), but with a potential for higher (especially with reaction enhancers) and also a bit more Essence friendly. My only thought is rather than a straight 4 bonus, what if it was 4/5/4/5? Since a d6 average is 3-4, would it make sense for a diceless version to be slightly higher? Mechanics wise, it's not much more (5/11/16/22). In-game, it offers a good run against wired reflexes for levels 1-3, with level four still being for a die hard that wants the fastest and doesn't care about the costs (in Essence and twitching), but would that put it over the top as a go-to option?
As to the skilljack add, it makes sense from a logical standpoint (why have skillwires if you can't use them?). However, it doesn't seem to fit in with how the system was designed. It seems the intent is you have an initiative boost with the potential to piggyback as skillwires, if you get the right accessory.