Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Aethelwulf1972 on <11-30-15/1822:21>
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I will paste the formatted text output from chummer for the character I was building for this past saturday. 1000 karma, availability limited to 10, device rating limited to 4, and we were asked to try to limit contacts to 0-2 contacts, and we were allowed to exceed the +/- 15 karma limits on qualities if we were willing to pay the karma for the positives and deal with the negatives... . oh and 1 grade of initiation was allowed.
one question I would for sure like answered: Should I have made this character a Mystic adept, and if so how would I modify it to free up the 15 extra karma for the mystic adept quality (from 20 to 35) and the 30 karma for 6 initial power points.
== Attributes ==
BOD: 4
AGI: 6
REA: 4 (7)
STR: 4
CHA: 4
INT: 5
LOG: 4
WIL: 4
EDG: 5
MAG: 6
== Derived Attributes ==
Essence: 6
Initiative: 9 (12) + 4d6
Rigger Initiative: 12 + 4d6
Astral Initiative: 10 + 2d6
Matrix AR Initiative: 12 + 4d6
Matrix Cold Initiative: 5 + DP + 3d6
Matrix Hot Initiative: 5 + DP + 4d6
Physical Damage Track: 10
Stun Damage Track: 10
== Limits ==
Physical: 7
Mental: 6
Social: 6
Ballistic Mask [+1] (Only for intimidation, Must be visible)
Astral: 6
== Active Skills ==
Animal Handling : 2 Pool: 6
Archery : 5 Pool: 11
Armorer : 4 Pool: 8
Automatics : 0 Pool: 5
Automotive Mechanic : 1 Pool: 5
Blades : 4 Pool: 10
Clubs : 0 Pool: 5
Computer : 2 Pool: 6
Con : 1 Pool: 5
Cybercombat : 0 Pool: 3
Demolitions : 0 Pool: 3
Disguise : 0 Pool: 4
Diving : 0 Pool: 3
Escape Artist : 0 Pool: 5
Etiquette : 3 Pool: 7
First Aid : 3 Pool: 7
Forgery : 0 Pool: 3
Free-Fall : 0 Pool: 3
Gunnery : 0 Pool: 5
Gymnastics : 2 Pool: 8
Hacking : 0 Pool: 3
Heavy Weapons : 0 Pool: 5
Impersonation : 0 Pool: 3
Instruction : 0 Pool: 3
Intimidation : 0 Pool: 3
Leadership : 0 Pool: 3
Longarms : 5 Pool: 11
Navigation : 3 Pool: 8
Negotiation : 3 Pool: 7
Perception : 4 Pool: 9
Performance : 0 Pool: 3
Pilot Ground Craft : 1 Pool: 8
Pilot Watercraft : 0 Pool: 6
Pistols : 4 Pool: 10
Running : 2 Pool: 6
Sneaking : 4 Pool: 10
Survival : 3 Pool: 7
Swimming : 2 Pool: 6
Throwing Weapons : 1 Pool: 7
Tracking : 3 Pool: 10
Unarmed Combat : 4 Pool: 10
== Knowledge Skills ==
Area Knowledge: Seattle : 3 Pool: 8
English : N Pool: 0
HMHVV : 4 Pool: 8
Japanese : 4 Pool: 9
Para-Zoology : 4 Pool: 8
Police Procedures : 3 Pool: 7
== Contacts ==
Reach; Research (5, 2)
== Qualities ==
Adept
Allergy (Common, Mild) (Sunlight)
Analytical Mind
Guts
Keen-Eared
Low-Light Vision
Mentor Spirit (Wolf)
Nocturnal
Perfect Time
Quick Healer
Sensei
SINner (National) (UCAS)
The Beast's Way
Unusual Hair
Wanted (Knight Errant)
== Powers ==
Analytics Rating: 1
Astral Perception
Attribute Boost (AGI) Rating: 2
Combat Sense Rating: 1
Improved Reflexes 3
Killing Hands
Natural Immunity Rating: 1
Nimble Fingers
Precision Throwing Rating: 1
Rapid Draw
Rapid Healing Rating: 1
== Lifestyles ==
Cave 4 months
== Armor ==
Armor Jacket 12
Ballistic Mask 2
Helmet 2
== Weapons ==
Ares Giantslayer Slingshot
Pool: 11 Accuracy: 7 DV: 2P AP: - RC: 3
Ares Predator V
+Personalized Grip
+Smartgun System, Internal
Pool: 10 Accuracy: 8 DV: 8P AP: -1 RC: 3
Combat Knife
Pool: 10 Accuracy: 6 DV: 6P AP: -3 RC: 3
Grenade: Gas
Pool: 7 Accuracy: 7 DV: Chemical (10m Radius) AP: - RC: 3
Ranger Silver Pistol Crossbow
+Personalized Grip
+Smartgun System, Internal
Pool: 11 Accuracy: 10 DV: 4P AP: - RC: 3
Springfield M1A
+Personalized Grip
+Smartgun System, Internal
Pool: 11 Accuracy: 9 DV: 12P AP: -1 RC: 3
Unarmed Attack
Pool: 10 Accuracy: 7 DV: 4P AP: - RC: 3
Winchester Model 2054
+Folding Stock
+Personalized Grip
+Smartgun System, Internal
Pool: 11 Accuracy: 7 DV: 11P AP: -1 RC: 4
== Commlink ==
Erika Elite (ATT: 0, SLZ: 0, DP: 4, FWL: 4)
+Trodes
== Gear ==
Ammo: Regular Ammo (Sporting Rifles) x40
Ammo: Wood Pulp (Heavy Pistols) x30
Ammo: Wood Pulp (Sporting Rifles) x20
Bolt: Injection (Crossbows) x10
Bolt: Stick-n-Shock w/Static Shaft (Crossbows) x20
Contacts Rating 3
+Smartlink
+Image Link
Earbuds Rating 3
Grenade: Gas x5
Medkit Rating 3
Restraint, Plasteel x10
Spare Clip (Ares Predator V) x3
Spare Clip (Springfield M1A) x3
Survival Kit
== Vehicles ==
Harley-Davidson Scorpion (Chopper)
+Sensor Array Rating 2
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Two much diversity weapons, focus down, don't go into Archery, Long arms, Pistols, and Unarmed, doing this has your pools way too low.
Your attributes look very high to me for a point buy. Your power selection is also all over the place, focus down and select what ya need, ya have a throwing power but almost no throw skill? A 5 in archery but no archery powers? Unarmed damage is too low to useful, without considerably more to hit.
Needs Focus and refinement. The advantage of point buy only getting exactly what you need your getting a lot stuff that does nothing for you.
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the combat diversity is something I wanted based on the inspiration for this character.... what is your idea of a "sufficient" dice pool if mine are too low? the throwing power is to get a little extra range on thrown gas grenades...
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Get some spare clips for you weapons.
Drop unarmed skill and powers, go for clubs (batons) instead!
How did you get all those powers by the way?
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Being as it is Karma buy, I see why you have so many lower level skills. I understand why you would want them, it makes character, just realize you will probably stick to your best weapon either way.
How did you get all those powers by the way?
By my count, he still has power points available. Here is how it breaks down:
Attribute Boost (AGI)2 =free from mentor spirit
Analytics = .5
Astral perception .5 (reduced by beast way)
Combat sense 1 .25 (reduced by beast way)
Improved reflexes 3 3.5
Killing hands .25 (reduced by beast way)
Precision throwing .25
Rapid draw .5
that adds up to 5.75.
Honestly, I like the character. His power points are spread a bit thin, but I see that you are trying to get the full bonus out of the way and the mentor, and you do have improved reflexes 3, which is great. I would probably throw out rapid draw and analytics and get 2 more points of combat sense, and perhaps use the last .25 for another point of attribute boost (AGI), for 3 total.
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the combat diversity is something I wanted based on the inspiration for this character.... what is your idea of a "sufficient" dice pool if mine are too low? the throwing power is to get a little extra range on thrown gas grenades...
Then use Skill Groups, gives you the diversity for a lower cost and higher lvl of effect. Basic competency in an opposed skill (See all combat skills) should be at-least in the 14+ die range. If your depending on the skill for damage it should higher.
ZB he says the character initiated so should be around 7 PP.
Also I need check the qualities math, but that's like 40+ points of qualities.
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I don't see the initiation anywhere on there, you have 6 magic.
As for trying to become a mystic adept, it isn't just the 15 karma for quality and 30 for power points, you are going to need 5 for each spell you want, and your stats are only mediocre for spellcasting. You are looking at trying to find around 100 karma, and that isn't happening.
My advice is drop the mental stats down a bit, a point here and there, and use that karma to by the firearms group skill, or raise your longarms to 6 at least and put some more in unarmed. And if you haven't done so, initiate and get that extra power point, then get more Powers. Again, I would toss rapid draw and analytics. Maybe get improved skill (choose weapon here) or more combat sense.
Like I said though, overall a decent build. I like the mentor wolf and beast way combo, fits real well.
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I suppose the character could do with out rapid draw (for now), Analytics (and analytical mind) were added because part of the character concept is investigation to track down the paranormal problems he needs to deal with. Also part of the flavor (for me) of the character is that he (like the inspiration) doesn't use automatics (though the novels in which I found the inspiration for this character do not say that the inspriation does not know how, but she just never uses automatic weapons) so how is Firearms more cost effective for getting 2 skills I want and a 3rd skill that I don't want?
hmmmm now here is a thought, the character mostly as is, except for Mystic adept instead of adept, but the character doens't realize he is a mystic adept yet and/or so he can grow into counterspelling and banishing etc...
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Just trying to do too much really.
Con pool of 5 dice on an opposed test means you're going to fail a lot.
First Aid 3 means you have 7 dice to beat a threshold of 2 and can then heal up to 3 boxes. Markedly worse Han just taking a wireless R6 medkit.
6 dice on Computer tests...its threshold but you'll be taking hours and hours to get anything relevant rather than letting the decker do it.
Etc.
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well, there are 4 players, no decker/technomancer, and these characters are supposed to be complete newbie shadowrunners.... what would you recommend for a character who wants to be able to track down problem paracritters, ect. and then finding a solution to the problem they pose?
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I wouldn't take 5 combat abilities if I wanted to do that.
I'd probably make it more of a general investigator since I'm not sure why "paracritter expert" would be paid to raid corps and stuff. I'd lose some of the weapon skills for more detective-y skills like more Perxeption, Con, etc. I'd streamline my Attribres instead of trying to make them all sort of crappily average because hats how you build the foundation for a good dice pool.
I'd be prepared to lose a point of MAG for some good augments too.
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Whiskeyjack - are you by any chance familiar with the Jane Yellowrock series of novels written by Faith Hunter? I ask because the inspiration (not template though) for this character is in fact the titular character from those novels;
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hmmmm now here is a thought, the character mostly as is, except for Mystic adept instead of adept, but the character doens't realize he is a mystic adept yet and/or so he can grow into counterspelling and banishing etc...
I like that idea, too. Is there another mage in your group? Anway, your stats aren't prime for a caster, but you could eventually get some decent support spells I suppose. Ultimately you might be disappointed with your power level compared to someone else who is more specialized. While you are learning spells that you wont be able to use very well for a long time, the street samurai will be upgrading his cyber and the 3 skills he uses, making him a pseudo combat god, the face will raise his social skills and charisma, maybe buy a better gun and plunk a couple of karma in that skill. But you will either get better at your chosen combat skills OR get more versatility by choosing spells or working on those skills needed to cast said skills. I think your character concept is great, but not sure how much fun it would actually be.
Also, having an inspiration is great, but don't be afraid to change the details to fit the game. Not using automatics makes for a good character plot, but not so much for surviving in the game.
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I suppose the character could do with out rapid draw (for now), Analytics (and analytical mind) were added because part of the character concept is investigation to track down the paranormal problems he needs to deal with. Also part of the flavor (for me) of the character is that he (like the inspiration) doesn't use automatics (though the novels in which I found the inspiration for this character do not say that the inspriation does not know how, but she just never uses automatic weapons) so how is Firearms more cost effective for getting 2 skills I want and a 3rd skill that I don't want?
hmmmm now here is a thought, the character mostly as is, except for Mystic adept instead of adept, but the character doens't realize he is a mystic adept yet and/or so he can grow into counterspelling and banishing etc...
You said you wanted diversity, skill groups offer it. I never said which groups you should take, I simply said and I will stick to you have too many pools at far too low ratings, as is this character is no threat any of the major magical enemies. It's not even really going to that effective verses something as simple as a force 6 spirit, that's a pretty low bar imo.
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Whiskeyjack - are you by any chance familiar with the Jane Yellowrock series of novels written by Faith Hunter? I ask because the inspiration (not template though) for this character is in fact the titular character from those novels;
I'm not familiar but...
Look, it's all well and good to take inspiration from characters in media. But those characters are not written with a statblock generated with limited resources in mind. Which is why it's much easier to take inspiration rather than try to do a full port of the character. For instance, IRL military training is going to encompass training with pistols, rifles, automatics, fists, and knives, as well as a number of other skills. But it's practically impossible to make a good character who has skill points in all of that without it being one note or of middling effectiveness. When I go for an ex-military character I roll in a lot of weapons competency into high AGI and pick two skills to cover the ranged and melee game, because buying 6 weapon skills at level 6 is just terrible in this system.
Now this isn't perfect verisimilitude but the system is not the setting, and characters have to mechanically work with very limited resources. That's just the way it is.
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Okay, I am trying to get past my own issues such as "it seems overkill to hunt with an assault rifle" and (from having played previous editions) that one can be effective in combat with a heavy pistol shooting 1 bullet per action phase here...
What I want(ed) for this character: to be able to fight effectively, especially against Paracritters, infected, and ideally spirts that are causing problems; to be able to track problematic paracritters, infected, sources of troublesome spirits down so they can be dealt with; to ideally be able to on occasion solve such problems non violently.
Now from what you guys are saying, I gather that I have missed the mark anywhere from somewhat to quite a bit. so:
--adept or mystic adept?
--is automatics really the "one gun skill to rule them all"?
--if I only took automatics would archery using crossbows be something to consider for easily accessible non forbidden ranged combat options?
--or could thrown weapons work instead of archery?
--keep or ditch Perfect time? nimble fingers? Rapid Draw?
--unarmed combat + adept powers (killing hands elemental strike spiritclaw) or blades+eventually getting a weapon focus for getting past immunity to normal weapons?
--how valuable would counterspelling and banishing be to this manner of character?
--how valuable would the physical and/or mana bind and net spells be to this manner of character?
--would either or both of the previous points be worth being a mystic adept?
--for the investigation angle, is analytical mind worth the karma? is analytics worth the power points?
--what skills besides perception would help with investigation type stuff?
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Adept is fine but Mystic Adept gives you way more tools.
Yes. Sadly.
Probably. I like archery for the silent kill and the injection bolt, but it's not that great in pitched fights. Also, you can put a crossbow on your assault rifle!
Thrown weapons will require a Strength investment. I'd stick to archery.
Rapid Draw is definitely a keep for me - because you want to be able to Quick Draw your AK-97. I like Perfect Time, but it's a free Free Action. Nimble Fingers makes perfect time crazy awesome too.
Blades is mechanically better for less investment, but I think both are viable.
Counterspelling, very. Banishing, never. Banishing is a trap skill.
I think they'd make a lot of sense and push me towards Mystic Adept.
No. Analytical Mind is not worth it. Analytics is not worth the power points.
Tracking, Etiquette, Computer.
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so:
--adept or mystic adept?
Adept, your already spread too thin, changing just complicates the issue.
--is automatics really the "one gun skill to rule them all"?
If you don't like Automatic then don't use it, you can be plenty effective this game with a pistol, just as long as you build to be effective with a pistol. Automatics has great deal of diversity advantage. But if it doesn't fit with your character image then leave it out.
--if I only took automatics would archery using crossbows be something to consider for easily accessible non forbidden ranged combat options?
Archery is fine, if that what you want to do, it's been buffed in hardtargets, and it can be an effective build, but I wouldn't do both guns and Archery. Archery requires a higher level of commitment in terms of build but can potentially offer a higher level of return in exchange.
--or could thrown weapons work instead of archery?
Thrown is fine, plenty of support for it. Less damage then archery, less commitment.
--keep or ditch Perfect time? nimble fingers? Rapid Draw?
Whatever you feel like works, but there are little weird, I prefer martial arts quick draw. More Skills! You should always always, have some skill enchancement powers, they are the heart of the adept build.
--unarmed combat + adept powers (killing hands elemental strike spiritclaw) or blades+eventually getting a weapon focus for getting past immunity to normal weapons?
Unarmed is very strong build in 5th, a kicking build, get shark mentor spirit, you can push a lot of dice really easily, and you add a lot powers to make it very effective. Blades is fine two, just comes down to what your image of the character, any of those options are good options. You cannot make a good monster hunter without the ability to bypass immunity to normal weapons.
--how valuable would counterspelling and banishing be to this manner of character?
I wouldn't go down that path, as long as someone in the party has CS your fine, Banishing is easier to handle just by being able to take out spirits.
--how valuable would the physical and/or mana bind and net spells be to this manner of character?
Lots of solid spells available, binds nets would not be my first choice, but it could work.
--would either or both of the previous points be worth being a mystic adept?
No. You can get a spell as normal adept, and it keeps the build more focused.
--for the investigation angle, is analytical mind worth the karma? is analytics worth the power points?
I'd run high perception and enhanced sense, particularly smell, ascencing is double edge sword, and it would be something I'd build into.
--what skills besides perception would help with investigation type stuff?
Animal Handling, wilderness survival, various lore skills, ascencing
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--adept or mystic adept?
--is automatics really the "one gun skill to rule them all"?
--if I only took automatics would archery using crossbows be something to consider for easily accessible non forbidden ranged combat options?
--or could thrown weapons work instead of archery?
--keep or ditch Perfect time? nimble fingers? Rapid Draw?
--unarmed combat + adept powers (killing hands elemental strike spiritclaw) or blades+eventually getting a weapon focus for getting past immunity to normal weapons?
--how valuable would counterspelling and banishing be to this manner of character?
--how valuable would the physical and/or mana bind and net spells be to this manner of character?
--would either or both of the previous points be worth being a mystic adept?
--for the investigation angle, is analytical mind worth the karma? is analytics worth the power points?
--what skills besides perception would help with investigation type stuff?
For this concept I would go adept, because "mystic adept who can shoot" is really hard to pull off well and is sitting on a razor's edge in terms of optimization.
One bullet per pass isn't terrible because # of bullets doesn't mean more damage. The advantage of Automatics, more than anything else, is full-auto penalizing defense tests, paired with generally higher damage codes and better inherent -AP than pistols and better ranges than pistols. Some pistols have good damage and -AP, but the range will always suffer.
There would be no point in going for crossbows. Automatics has great non-F weapons. If you want to go crossbows, just take Archery alone as your ranged option. I've seen it done. It's harder but very viable.
Thrown weapons...I have never experimented with it, but you need high STR, which is something you can avoid with guns or crossbows. It makes you more MAD.
I'd ditch all three.
Unarmed + knuckle weapon foci probably, for concealment. Blades for damage. Elemental Weapon for both. Killing Hands is pretty meh to me.
Counterspelling is gold. Banishing sucks, because Banishing is "very limited Stunbolt, except a skill, and totally useless against non-spirits, where Stunbolt is awesome." If you're getting Banishing, you're going to be a MysAd, meaning just forget guns, go for spells. Like Stunbolt.
They're not bad spells. I tend to prefer physical stuff to affect cars and drones, but if you want to net a non-materialized spirit and run, you might need Mana Net.
Physical Adepts cannot take Counterspelling or Banishing.
Don't seem them being worth the PP.
Skills: Sneaking (Urban), Con (Fast-Talk), Tracking, a degree of Computer...yes, this makes you pretty MAD unfortunately.
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- As a phys adept fan: Go phys adept or go full mage. Don't spread yourself thin if you want to be specialized
- In defense of Longarms: Shotguns are the king of defense penalty. If you are in close range with a full auto shotgun and a wide choke setting there is almost nothing able to avoid being hit (albeit with flechette). Automatics are good, but they are not the be all end all. Sport rifles are a very good and easily explainable weapon category to be lugging around.
- No. Tasers are the easily accessible and non-forbidden, highly effective ranged combat options with good armor penetration
- Thrown weapons work if you are chucking grenades otherwise no, you'd need to much strength to pull it off
- Perfect Time and Rapid Draw are very useful, especially in combination with pistols/tasers.
- Unarmed + Knucks weapon focus + elemental weapon are the most efficient combination. Blades won't help you as much if you are pulled into a grapple
- A phsyical adept can get his personal magic resistance that works everytime he is targeted by a spell or supernatural ability - superior imho to counterspelling. Banishing is just a polite way to get rid of spirits. Adept spell - any ranged combat spell with a fetish is probably a better investment of skill points. Just punching them with a weapon focus works too.
- You have to ask yourself: What will you do with them when you have caught them? Knocking them unconscious/killing them is probably safer and easier.
- In my opinion, no.
- No and no. Investigators need intuition more than logic - tracking assensing and perception are your friends, not math problems.
- tracking, survival, intimidation (interrogation specialty), lockpicking, assensing, stealth group
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Whiskeyjack - when I said non #f weapons I meant the fact that silencers and supressors themselves are #f availability....
also you said that a Mystic adept that can shoot is hard to pull off and walks a razor edge for optimization but what if part of the concept was a Mystic Adept, but because the person teaching/training him didn't realize that he was a mystic adept, just trained him as a normal adept and the character only recently figured out he had access to more? as in initial optimization for the "that shoots" part and needing to earn karma in game to enhance the counterspelling and spellcasting and such? also what about initiating into psychometry or apotropaic arts (eventually)
and though technically locked into nocturna, what metatype/variant would have worked better for this concept? (kind suddenly thinking oni (cold the human looking quality apply to oni))
The reason I seem stuck on Mystic adept is that of the other three characters, one is apparently a non magical dwarf that surged and grew fur, ears and a tail to look like the cheshire cat, a Troll shaman healer/support type (who is phobic of filre) , and a korean human vampire (i can't remember if that character is full magic or mystic adept) but neither of the magically actives are starting out the type who would want or be able to facilitate spirit combat other than buffing me and hoping I can get shit done.
every one else, all your answers to my bullet points are going to be factored into each decision so thank you for your input as well :D
If i were to go with knucks or blades as a weapon focus, what force rating would I Ideally want for the focus?
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Since weapon foci can be upgraded later on you can get away even with a Force 1. It's the ability to bypass resistances that makes them so useful, the extra dice are a bonus.
But I'd recommend Force 3+ so it works in higher background count areas.
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I'll post a detailed response after work.
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Having a vampire on a team is fairly dangerous. Note that if they are running a human vampire they really need to be magical active b/c you need masking asap. dual nature pcs face many challenges normal pcs don't need to worry about.
The issue with mysad is that you have to buy power points, to have any. This means a heavy price to get mysad and a heavier price to be able to use mysad. That all means less resources, even if you choose to not to take any spells or any magic skills it's going to hurt your starting resources. Further it will be very karma intensive to reach any kind of effectiveness with even basic magical skills there is no build where I would ever recommend doing such a thing. It would take hundreds of karma to reach effectiveness.
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It would take hundreds of karma to reach effectiveness.
Define effectiveness? ???
I agree that mys adepts are always karma-hungry but not to the point of unplayability.
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If i were to go with knucks or blades as a weapon focus, what force rating would I Ideally want for the focus?
With your availability limited to 10, you can only get up to rating 2. I would get it at 2, it will hold you over for quite a while.
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It would take hundreds of karma to reach effectiveness.
Define effectiveness? ???
I agree that mys adepts are always karma-hungry but not to the point of unplayability.
I have to agree that you can make a mysad that pulls his weight from the get go...
CHA based tradition pornomancy mysad anyone?
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It would take hundreds of karma to reach effectiveness.
Define effectiveness? ???
I agree that mys adepts are always karma-hungry but not to the point of unplayability.
It easier to show what is not then what is, but a mysad that has bought only adept powers, has no spells or magic skills, and doesn't have a pool above 13 isn't, for sure.
Further any mysad who doesn't have spells and the skills to use them, is most certainly non-effective.
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It would take hundreds of karma to reach effectiveness.
Define effectiveness? ???
I agree that mys adepts are always karma-hungry but not to the point of unplayability.
It easier to show what is not then what is, but a mysad that has bought only adept powers, has no spells or magic skills, and doesn't have a pool above 13 isn't, for sure.
Further any mysad who doesn't have spells and the skills to use them, is most certainly non-effective.
Well, for an inital investment of 20 extra karma for the quality, and 30 extra karma for the power points, so 50 total, you can create a character built just like a physical adept only (except he gets astral perception for free, worth 5 karma if you were planning on getting it) but with a ton of future potential. The question is, how long will your campaign last? If you guys are planning to play for a loooong time, a physical adept might actually become quite boring, whilst a mystic adept has a ton of future potential. The only downside is that if you initiate as a PhysAd you get more power points, but as a MysAd you cannot receive power points (if I read that right).
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A physad autimatically gets a powerpoint when he raises his magic rating(not Maximum Magic).
A mysad does not.
Both can choose a powerpoint instead of a metamagic such as masking if they want.
And personally, I don't think a physad gets boring as the campaign progresses.... but to each his own.
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It would take hundreds of karma to reach effectiveness.
Define effectiveness? ???
I agree that mys adepts are always karma-hungry but not to the point of unplayability.
It easier to show what is not then what is, but a mysad that has bought only adept powers, has no spells or magic skills, and doesn't have a pool above 13 isn't, for sure.
Further any mysad who doesn't have spells and the skills to use them, is most certainly non-effective.
Well, for an inital investment of 20 extra karma for the quality, and 30 extra karma for the power points, so 50 total, you can create a character built just like a physical adept only (except he gets astral perception for free, worth 5 karma if you were planning on getting it) but with a ton of future potential. The question is, how long will your campaign last? If you guys are planning to play for a loooong time, a physical adept might actually become quite boring, whilst a mystic adept has a ton of future potential. The only downside is that if you initiate as a PhysAd you get more power points, but as a MysAd you cannot receive power points (if I read that right).
And how much karma does it take to get spells, and the skills to use them, let alone initiation? Your buying potential at the cost of initial effectivness. does anything in here strike you as potentially effective so far?
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Whiskeyjack - when I said non #f weapons I meant the fact that silencers and supressors themselves are #f availability....
Largely a non-issue, frankly.
also you said that a Mystic adept that can shoot is hard to pull off and walks a razor edge for optimization but what if part of the concept was a Mystic Adept, but because the person teaching/training him didn't realize that he was a mystic adept, just trained him as a normal adept and the character only recently figured out he had access to more? as in initial optimization for the "that shoots" part and needing to earn karma in game to enhance the counterspelling and spellcasting and such? also what about initiating into psychometry or apotropaic arts (eventually)
You're going to suck at something. If you're a spell caster, sucking at spells and/or spirits is sucking at the thing you paid the most chargen resources in, at least in priority.
To be honest, I don't approach characters from the angle of "being suboptimal and being kind of middling at the thing I paid a ton to invest in is a cool story." I get no enjoyment from that. I acknowledge how I phrased it is loaded. Not saying you're Doing It Wrong, but I'm not sure how helpful my opinions can be, because that is an alien mindset to me. Which is not to say I hard optimize everything, it's just, I play a MysAd to be good at magic, not to be ok at magic but great at shooting because of my backstory. Because for a MysAd, to me, a gun is great backup and you don't always want to out yourself, but I want to be able to throw max magic when needed.
and though technically locked into nocturna, what metatype/variant would have worked better for this concept? (kind suddenly thinking oni (cold the human looking quality apply to oni))
If you want to be a good-shooting MysAd, Elves do alright, Humans are probably better because their priority is much more forgiving.
The reason I seem stuck on Mystic adept is that of the other three characters, one is apparently a non magical dwarf that surged and grew fur, ears and a tail to look like the cheshire cat, a Troll shaman healer/support type (who is phobic of filre) , and a korean human vampire (i can't remember if that character is full magic or mystic adept) but neither of the magically actives are starting out the type who would want or be able to facilitate spirit combat other than buffing me and hoping I can get shit done.
SURGE is totally overpriced this edition. Totally overpriced. A SURGEd Dwarf is going to be pretty far behind the math game.
Ditto with Trolls. I love Trolls. Trolls are painful in anything less than Sum-to-12, because of their metatype priority requirement. I like Trolls a lot, but so much STR is just not worth that. BOD is great, but it's just too expensive. A Troll MysAd is either going to be sorely lacking in stats and skills, terrible at magic, or have zero Edge. In all cases, they will likely be broke. It's very frustrating to me. I cannot see a good reason to play a Troll over an Ork, as they get very close to the Troll boosts but have greater priority freedoms.
Again, I say all this as a person who would just plain not enjoy being so potentially far behind the math game as everyone else. YMMV.
Vampire may not work with all groups. It can be dangerous and problematic.
If i were to go with knucks or blades as a weapon focus, what force rating would I Ideally want for the focus?
At least one, otherwise as high as you can at chargen. 3?
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And how much karma does it take to get spells, and the skills to use them, let alone initiation? Your buying potential at the cost of initial effectivness. does anything in here strike you as potentially effective so far?
It would be an extremely effective character with lots of future potentials. He would be a bit narrow at the beginning, but still effective. Again, my major concern is having the Attributes to support the build. Am I saying he would be as good as an adept at the start? Yes, he would be. 50 karma won't break your major build, mostly it will be more money or skills that you don't really need that would suffer, so a tight build will definitely work. But more important, if that is the type of character that you want to play, then play it. Again, as I said already, it also depends on how long the campaign intends to go. These factors may not make you think it is viable, but that is just your opinion.
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And how much karma does it take to get spells, and the skills to use them, let alone initiation? Your buying potential at the cost of initial effectivness. does anything in here strike you as potentially effective so far?
It would be an extremely effective character with lots of future potentials. He would be a bit narrow at the beginning, but still effective. Again, my major concern is having the Attributes to support the build. Am I saying he would be as good as an adept at the start? Yes, he would be. 50 karma won't break your major build, mostly it will be more money or skills that you don't really need that would suffer, so a tight build will definitely work. But more important, if that is the type of character that you want to play, then play it. Again, as I said already, it also depends on how long the campaign intends to go. These factors may not make you think it is viable, but that is just your opinion.
So how do you define effective?
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And how much karma does it take to get spells, and the skills to use them, let alone initiation? Your buying potential at the cost of initial effectivness. does anything in here strike you as potentially effective so far?
It would be an extremely effective character with lots of future potentials. He would be a bit narrow at the beginning, but still effective. Again, my major concern is having the Attributes to support the build. Am I saying he would be as good as an adept at the start? Yes, he would be. 50 karma won't break your major build, mostly it will be more money or skills that you don't really need that would suffer, so a tight build will definitely work. But more important, if that is the type of character that you want to play, then play it. Again, as I said already, it also depends on how long the campaign intends to go. These factors may not make you think it is viable, but that is just your opinion.
So how do you define effective?
It would take hundreds of karma to reach effectiveness.
Define effectiveness? ???
I agree that mys adepts are always karma-hungry but not to the point of unplayability.
You first ::)
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and what do I want to prioritize for stats on a weapon that is to be a weapon focus? ACC? AP? Damage?
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I would say all of those, just like with a gun.
A sword is good because then you can take Wudang Sword as a martial art to get Ballestra (bonus reach) and Iaijutsu (improves your action economy to activate the focus and use something like Elemental Weapon before attacking).
Katana + personalized grip is damn good for a reason. I like clay mores but those are much less socially acceptable.
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There is a reason why the monofilament weapon focus has become (in)famous.
If you have Hard Targets you could get that nice memory metal spear. It's an iconic weapon for a hunter, it can be concealed and it has great reach.
Rapid draw works as well as Iaijutsu by the way.
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Can't believe I forgot about the whip. I love it but you definitely need a concealable Biofiber pocket if it's a focus.
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oh I forgot to ask, what if anything do I need to add to audio devices and visual devices (earbuds, contacts, glasses, etc) in order to be able to record what I see and hear?
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A micro camera with a microphone.
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I thought just image link covered it.
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And how much karma does it take to get spells, and the skills to use them, let alone initiation? Your buying potential at the cost of initial effectivness. does anything in here strike you as potentially effective so far?
It would be an extremely effective character with lots of future potentials. He would be a bit narrow at the beginning, but still effective. Again, my major concern is having the Attributes to support the build. Am I saying he would be as good as an adept at the start? Yes, he would be. 50 karma won't break your major build, mostly it will be more money or skills that you don't really need that would suffer, so a tight build will definitely work. But more important, if that is the type of character that you want to play, then play it. Again, as I said already, it also depends on how long the campaign intends to go. These factors may not make you think it is viable, but that is just your opinion.
So how do you define effective?
It would take hundreds of karma to reach effectiveness.
Define effectiveness? ???
I agree that mys adepts are always karma-hungry but not to the point of unplayability.
You first ::)
It would take hundreds of karma to reach effectiveness.
Define effectiveness? ???
I agree that mys adepts are always karma-hungry but not to the point of unplayability.
It easier to show what is not then what is, but a mysad that has bought only adept powers, has no spells or magic skills, and doesn't have a pool above 13 isn't, for sure.
Further any mysad who doesn't have spells and the skills to use them, is most certainly non-effective.
Oh but I already did. So carry on. Clearly we disagree on what it means so where am I wrong?
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I thought just image link covered it.
Image link: A standard upgrade, this lets you display visual information (text, pictures, movies, the current time, etc.) in your field of vision. This is usually AROs, but you can display pretty much whatever you want on it. You and your team can use it to share tactical and sit- uational info in real time. An image link is what you need to truly “see” AR and participate in the modern world.
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Image link covers video, audio link is for sound (but is commonly handwaved).
Edit: Apparently audio link is something I made up.
Weapon foci wise, best you can start with. ACC, DV, AP, and Reach are all important. Personally I would want either a WF katana, claymore (hard to hide/justify), Horizon-Flynn Rapier (similar to katana, but cheaper and slightly less DV), or combat knife are all solid options. Personalized Grip on the katana or HF Rapier has ACC of ~8 which should be more than enough. Problem with all melee characters is you want strength to be at least 5 majority of the time. My reason to skip knuckles is because killing hands covers the damage reduction and 'ware will get you the raw damage (for 1 point of magic and essence). Only thing you will lose is the bonus dice (which is nice). With STR of 4, unarmed is not that advisable 4-6 DV is not that impressive if you want to kill stuff with your fist verse 9 DV (no Crit Strike) with the claymore (and -5 AP).
As for MyAd without spells, why? You would be better served as a pure adept or mage. You might have more options in the long run, and potentially really powerful, but at a ridiculous karma cost, At the same karma level a pure adept will out pass you in there focused job (this case killing "monsters"). Why, because the delima between focused builds and generalists. Currently one could consider the mage the best generalist depending on spell selection (outside of drone and matrix stuff).
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okay assuming my gm gets back to me with approval for restricted gear either for a higher force weapon focus or the availability of the colapsable spear what weapon do I want for a weapon focus:
Combat Knife (only benefit I can think of is better for concealability)
Katana
or
Collapsible spear?
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Katanas are legal. Get a license.
Also you can upgrade foci in play so don't feel like you need to waste restricted gear on it. Even a level 1 is gold because it pierces spirit INTW.
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If you got the cash to use katana, if not then otherwise the combat knife, because the collapsible spear has an availability of 14(restricted as well, but that doesnt matter). If we are using restricted PQ to get an availability 14 weapon then get the claymore and dont worry about the spear or the katana.
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oh, I also settled on Spiritual way, to leave open the option of learning psychometry. for the choice of one power elegible for the way discount I was thinking of an improved physical attribute.... the question is, which attribute? i already have the 2 free levels of Agi boost from the wolf mentor spirit and in terms of both katana damage, and boosting physical limit I was thinking strength
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also I believe I recall someone mentioning the wudang sword martial art for the Ballestra technique.... if I don't personally care for +1 reach at the expense of -1 to defense tests until my next action phase, is wudang sword still preferable if I wanted to grab a martial art? are the martial arts based Ripostes any good? are Martial arts worth the karma? (or more specifically would a weapon based martial art be worth the karma for this character?)
or should I just specialize in katana?
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Strength is a good one to increase, considering what you want to do. Riposte is amazing if you can reliably beat the others test. Also it has iajustsu (aka draw and strike) as well. Only reason Wudang is considered better than Kendo is for Riposte and Ballestra. Actually having +1 reach would negate the -1 to defense for melee attacks (or at least it should). So with your katana you would have a effective reach of +2 (equal to the claymore/nadochi and combat ax).
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I don't ever see IPA as worth it.
Wudang Sword is like one of two or three styles that are good as opposed to just different. Iaijutsu is amazing and necessary for strong Melee builds. A style is worth the karma if it's a good style. Not many of the styles are written to be more than flavorful though.
What are you concerned about with physical limit? You can always take the power for +1, and Melee attacks key off of ACC except for unarmed. Normal defense tests and Agile Defender impose no Limit.
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Normally for Improved Attribute I just use Qi focus (force 4) to the relevant stat (usually STR). As a MysAd (who best have spells, otherwise your are being wasteful with your karma) you will also need other foci besides just Weapon and Qi foci this may not be as practiacal. With the ability to turn foci on and off, I just switch which foci I need, with my weapon and IA (STR) being my almost always on unless combat is almost positively not going to happen (low chance many times in the game I am in). Discount one of the other .5 powers that you most like have (such as combat sense) and use it to buy one of the flavorful and useful .25 powers like sustenance or nimble fingers.
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okay I just realized I forgot to mention, I did finally decide on adept.... Mystic adept was becomming to costly in terms of karma for what I want.
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And how much karma does it take to get spells, and the skills to use them, let alone initiation? Your buying potential at the cost of initial effectivness. does anything in here strike you as potentially effective so far?
It would be an extremely effective character with lots of future potentials. He would be a bit narrow at the beginning, but still effective. Again, my major concern is having the Attributes to support the build. Am I saying he would be as good as an adept at the start? Yes, he would be. 50 karma won't break your major build, mostly it will be more money or skills that you don't really need that would suffer, so a tight build will definitely work. But more important, if that is the type of character that you want to play, then play it. Again, as I said already, it also depends on how long the campaign intends to go. These factors may not make you think it is viable, but that is just your opinion.
So how do you define effective?
It would take hundreds of karma to reach effectiveness.
Define effectiveness? ???
I agree that mys adepts are always karma-hungry but not to the point of unplayability.
You first ::)
It would take hundreds of karma to reach effectiveness.
Define effectiveness? ???
I agree that mys adepts are always karma-hungry but not to the point of unplayability.
It easier to show what is not then what is, but a mysad that has bought only adept powers, has no spells or magic skills, and doesn't have a pool above 13 isn't, for sure.
Further any mysad who doesn't have spells and the skills to use them, is most certainly non-effective.
Oh but I already did. So carry on. Clearly we disagree on what it means so where am I wrong?
I never said you were wrong. I never addressed you until you addressed me. I was only giving my opinion. I am not one of those powergamers who thinks that you need maximum dice pools with max stats to have a good time. I like characters with character, now the boring has-done build that everyone plays. A little optimization is fine, and certainly a sense of direction when building a character helps, too. We do disagree, doesn't mean you (or I) are wrong.
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what skill or skill group would be appropriate (to the character concept) for the sensei to have?
need to spend at least 4 of the free contact points on the sensei.... what other contacts should I consider?
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What is one of your primary (max/near maxed ) skills? Pick that skill/skill group. So for example, Close Combat group would not be a bad idea. Good to know you dropped the MysAd with out spells bit.
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A smartgun equipped weapon has a camera, cybereyes can do it as well.
After that I'm sure a Commlink have cameras though it may have how are you holding it problem.
Drone cameras are easy to get ahold of.
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it just now occurred to me, should I have ranks in astral combat or should this character just concern himself with fighting manifested spirits?
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Astral Combat is not a good skill.
If you want, take Astral Perception as a qi focus to hit astral spirits, but they're not going to do much to you from the astral either.
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having decided to go with the Spiritual way quality I find I am having issues figuring out which powers to discount.... and some issue figuring out which powers would fit my concept.... I find myself wanting to take powers that seem thematic that I am reasonably sure some of you would consider a waste of power points. the power list that I have currently are:
Astral Perception*
Agility boost 2 (from wolf mentor spirit)
Combat Sense 2
Elemental Weapon (Electricity)*
Improved Reflexes 3
Improved Sense (Smell)
Mystic Armor 2
Natural Immunity 2
Nimble Fingers
Rapid Draw*
Rapid healing 1
Powers marked with * are curently discounted.
I know one of the first things that might be recommended is drop rapid draw and take a martial art with iaijutsu, but the rapid draw power makes quickdraw a free action anyway.
Other powers that I was, and still am, considering are improved abilities and enhanced perception.... though discounting powers that can have multiple levels in Chummer is a bit of a headache due to having to add each discounted level separately...
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Mystic Armor 2 is really low value. Just buy better armor. Or buy more Combat Sense
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for the monster hunter concept, is improved reflexes 3 good as is? or should I consider dropping it to 2 and get a force 4 impoved reflexes qi focus thus freeing up a pp for other things?
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i wouldn't get a foci, i would just wait til your first initiation to get it.
Other high-value stuff includes Critical Strike for your main weapon and Improved Ability for it as well.
If you drop Mystic Armor 2 (really, you should) and one rank of IR, you can get IA 3 and CS. The first initiation shouldn't take long to save for and imo, the above will benefit you a lot more in early runs.
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With my current runner (blade adept) I wish I had dropped Mystic Armor as well for more ranks of IA, because I am now struggling to squeeze them in with the other powers I want/need.
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My choice of improved sense, smell is mostly thematic, but I'd the listed powers, what besides mystic armor would be good to either drop or are good candidates for qi foci? And is there anything not on the list that would be good candidates for qi foci?
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Astral Perception is a good choice for a qi foci, but you have that free.
A lot of the stuff you have you want always-on, but a lot of it is also just simply not that good to begin with, so dropping Natural Immunity and Rapid Healing is where I would go.
The reason we say Mystic Armor is bad is because, if you want +2 soak, go buy a Ballistic Mask.
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So 7 dice to resist toxins is sufficient for someone who might me fighting paracritters with venom? Extra armor and toxin resistance seemed a bit thematic to me, as does healing quickly...
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You add 1 die to healing and 2 dice to resistance. Get some good armor. Seriously. You're talking about adding 1/3 of a hit to healing tests or 2/3 of a point of soaked damage or venom. That's nothing.
If you are really concerned about that, take higher BOD and Adept Spell to be able to use Heal or an anti venom spell.
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Better not to get hit in the first place.
Yeah armor is important, but it's cheap easy to get, easy to replace, and easy to add too or adept for a given condition.
Combat sense, can do amazing things for you, not getting surprised, and even if you don't avoid an attack completely, knocking success off prevent damage from stacking up. But combat sense is always worth stacking up. Don't be concerned about healing dice. Healing issues are for those who lost essence. Magic takes care of adepts, a decent heal spell can have even a pretty severally wounded adept back on her/his feet in no time as soon as combat rounds end. With a little pain tolerance, and adept can stay functional without running the risks Cyber build regularly run.
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Even heavy cyber isn't that bad off really.
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An adept with combat sense seems extremely skilled or supernaturally aware (which he actually is). One of those guys in combat who is always moving and everything seems to barely miss them. Thematically is looks pretty badass. The only advantage that armor has is that if they don't do enough damage with the hit to beat your armor value, any damage suffered becomes stun. After your first few runs, however, you can purchase a 'run kit, which you can include some nice, not so legal, combat armor. When you know you are going to be fighting heavies, you put that on, and your combat sense will still help, whereas a few points of mystic armor will give diminishing returns at higher armor levels. If the armor fits more thematically (you see your guy as more of a brute who wades through combat instead of dodging) then go for it. It may not be as great as combat sense, but it is still ok.
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If you want to maximize power points (1.5 free power points), you should consider improved attribute as a discount power. Theoretically you can take it 4 times giving 2 free power points. Moreover, improved attribute reaction gives you more than i.e. 2nd or 3rd combat sense and the price is the same with discount. Improved attribute body gives more than mystic armor and so on. If you have agility boost, you don't need improved attribute agility anymore.
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okay, I am dumping the mystic armor and natural immunity; which would be better: taking combat reflexes from 2 to 5 or adding some improved ability? I personally like adding to my not getting hit...
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== Attributes ==
BOD: 4
STR: 4
CHA: 4
LOG: 4
WIL: 4
== Active Skills ==
Animal Handling : 2 Pool: 6
Archery : 5 Pool: 11
Armorer : 4 Pool: 8
Automotive Mechanic : 1 Pool: 5
Blades : 4 Pool: 10
Computer : 2 Pool: 6
Con : 1 Pool: 5
Etiquette : 3 Pool: 7
First Aid : 3 Pool: 7
Gymnastics : 2 Pool: 8
Longarms : 5 Pool: 11
Navigation : 3 Pool: 8
Negotiation : 3 Pool: 7
Perception : 4 Pool: 9
Pilot Ground Craft : 1 Pool: 8
Pistols : 4 Pool: 10
Running : 2 Pool: 6
Sneaking : 4 Pool: 10
Survival : 3 Pool: 7
Swimming : 2 Pool: 6
Throwing Weapons : 1 Pool: 7
Tracking : 3 Pool: 10
Unarmed Combat : 4 Pool: 10
== Qualities ==
Adept
Allergy (Common, Mild) (Sunlight)
Analytical Mind
Guts
Keen-Eared
Low-Light Vision
Mentor Spirit (Wolf)
Nocturnal
Perfect Time
Quick Healer
Sensei
SINner (National) (UCAS)
The Beast's Way
Unusual Hair
Wanted (Knight Errant)
== Powers ==
Analytics Rating: 1
Killing Hands
Natural Immunity Rating: 1
Nimble Fingers
Precision Throwing Rating: 1
Rapid Draw
Rapid Healing Rating: 1
I might consider dropping Bod, Cha, & Log all by 1 to increase Str & Wil
Also, Drop Archery, Armorer, First Aid, Throwing, & Unarmed.
Increase Pistols & Add specialties to Pistols, LongArms, & Blades
Get Improved Critical (Blades)
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Tarislar - the stats in the original post have been long since revised, and with my latest post i am simply asking on what to do with the 1.5 pp freed up by dropping mystic armor and natural immunity...
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Can't remember if you picked up critical strike (blades) if not this, and improved ability (primary skill) 2 ranks. If it is already maxed via improved ability or 1 more will max it, and it to one of the needed secondary skills. Another good option at .5 PP is rapid draw.
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I haven't taken critical strike yet, but I did take elemental weapon... should I drop the elemental weapon for critical strike blades?
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If you want to maximize power points (1.5 free power points), you should consider improved attribute as a discount power.
It's still not a good power compared to just taking a MAG hit for much more bonus with ware.
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I haven't taken critical strike yet, but I did take elemental weapon... should I drop the elemental weapon for critical strike blades?
If you have a weapon foci (I think you do) elemental weapon is pretty cool, but takes a simple action to activate. Critical strike applies to all weapons of the same melee type and raises the dv by 1. So, my opinion, yes critical strike before elemental weapon.
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How would a non cybered character like this one set him self up with gear to transmit what he sees and hears via his comlink to the rest of the team?
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Simrig + Sim Module is fairly straightforward.
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Tarislar - the stats in the original post have been long since revised, and with my latest post i am simply asking on what to do with the 1.5 pp freed up by dropping mystic armor and natural immunity...
Yeah, I noticed that after I posted from you 1st list.
Astral Perception*
Agility boost 2 (from wolf mentor spirit)
Combat Sense 2
Elemental Weapon (Electricity)*
Improved Reflexes 3
Improved Sense (Smell)
Mystic Armor 2
Natural Immunity 2
Nimble Fingers
Rapid Draw*
Rapid healing 1
As I already stated.
Improved Critical.
Combat Sense is never bad.
I would also consider Heightened Concern.
The ability to ignore some modifier can be really useful, IMHO.
Wounded, no biggy, Sand Storm, No Biggy, etc etc.