Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: SmilinIrish on <12-07-15/1334:58>
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So the cost of a magical lodge does not scale with rating. It's a flat 500 per rating. The availability is R x 2. Magical lodge primarily affects ritual spellcasting, but has a couple of other interesting uses. It acts as a mana barrier on both the astral and physical planes. Also, in regard to astral tracking, it adds its force to the threshold if the mage being tracked is within the barrier. So if you cast a spell, didn't get to clean your signature, you might sit behind a barrier until the effect fades if you are trying to avoid being tracked. The rating of the barrier adds to the threshhold giving you a chance that the trail will fade out before the tracker gets to you.
So increasing your lodge rating after character gen seems difficult. You've got to throw a lot of money to get each successive level of lodge rating. But with the restricted gear quality, you can start off with an R12 lodge for 6k. This gives you a mana barrier with 24 dice vs spirits trying to cross the barrier or mages pushing through/using mana window. It adds 12 to the threshhold of tracking attempts (arguably causing the tracking mage to take an extra 3 hours to find you, making it likely that the trail fades first.)
So restricted gear costs 10 karma. For my current build this is two levels of focused concentration and not worthwhile. It probably isn't worthwhile for most. But I just thought the idea was interesting. Thoughts?
Any thoughts or tricks on the process of upgrading lodges in game?
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I honestly don't think there's anything that's worth changing about it. Sure, the Availability gets high, but it's such a cheap item that you can just spread cash around until you get the materials you need.
For instance, let's say I start CharGen with a Force 6 Magical Lodge and want to upgrade it to a Force 12. The materials are a mere 3000 nuyen, but the availability is 24. My best contact for this is a Talismonger, who we'll say has 16 dice for finding things, so there's a deficit of 8 dice. If I spend 200% of the cost, then I've got those dice. So, for 9000 nuyen, 2-4 days of waiting and 12 days of attuning, I've got a Force 12 Magical Lodge.
Now, granted, getting anything above a Force 14 is going to be a pain in the butt and probably require you to sick two contacts on it ... but it's worth it, yeah?
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Don't forget mages often pool resources on things like this, so a magical group will often have a fair rating lodge to call their own.
Major corps and universities are listed at having lodges of 10+1d6 rating to give you an idea of how you might compare.
Which does raise an interesting question of whether you can nick some of those components next time you are raiding the corp hangout. :P
Most traditions probably can not make use of all of the items, but one should be able to salvage a bit of it plus it wrecks the corps little circle so 2for1 ;)
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Can you break down the numbers on dice pool of the talismonger? I have mine at Conn 5 Loyalty 2. That was something I was having trouble figuring out, as the book talks about it being a skill roll based off of charisma. It isn't like I have the talismonger stat-ed out. And by these rules all talismongers would be shaman (for the charisma). So I suppose 6 for Charisma, 6 for negotiation, 2 for a specialty...not sure how to work that out.
Also wasn't suggesting changes, just looking for hive mind discussion (just like you provided). Thanks!
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Can you break down the numbers on dice pool of the talismonger?
I generally assume a Charisma of 4-8, a Negotiation pool of 6-10, a specialty in Bargaining (I think), which gives you a dice pool of 12-20. I forgot that I give a general +2 for things that match the type of contact it is, which pushes it to 14-22, so 16 is pretty decent.
That said, since most people don't stat out their contacts, I usually go with 3xConnection for their base dice pool, because I don't like to include Loyalty in the roll as it doesn't make sense to me that a Loyalty 6/Connection 1 Shmoe has an equal odds of finding something as a Connection 3/Loyalty 2 Gang Leader.
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Why not?
Let's say that someone has that Connection 1, Loyalty 6 guy and another has a Connection 6, Loyalty 1 equivalent. Sure, the latter has a larger network, but the former is much more willing to take big risks to find his pal what he wants.
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It's not a restricted item.
Our gm allows browse checks to find non restricted items ( aka googling through speciality sites)
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I'm not going to pull out the books but read up on how to build the lodge. Getting the materials is one thing but you still need to assemble and charge it up.
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I'm not going to pull out the books but read up on how to build the lodge. Getting the materials is one thing but you still need to assemble and charge it up.
That doesn't require anything but a few days to do it. There's no cost but time.
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You need a place to put it. That's a grand a month added on to lifestyle. My point is that having the materials isn't the same as having a lodge. Also, there's licensing for magic paraphernalia which means the whole thing could get confiscated if found.
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You need a place to put it. That's a grand a month added on to lifestyle. My point is that having the materials isn't the same as having a lodge. Also, there's licensing for magic paraphernalia which means the whole thing could get confiscated if found.
If it required a license it would be restricted. It's not.
Furthermore, there's nothing forcing you to have a special area for your lodge. The Special Work Area only gives you a +2 limit bonus. There's nothing saying it's required in order to have a lodge.
I honestly don't think there's anything that's worth changing about it. Sure, the Availability gets high, but it's such a cheap item that you can just spread cash around until you get the materials you need.
For instance, let's say I start CharGen with a Force 6 Magical Lodge and want to upgrade it to a Force 12. The materials are a mere 3000 nuyen, but the availability is 24. My best contact for this is a Talismonger, who we'll say has 16 dice for finding things, so there's a deficit of 8 dice. If I spend 200% of the cost, then I've got those dice. So, for 9000 nuyen, 2-4 days of waiting and 12 days of attuning, I've got a Force 12 Magical Lodge.
Now, granted, getting anything above a Force 14 is going to be a pain in the butt and probably require you to sick two contacts on it ... but it's worth it, yeah?
Where does it say that one lodge material is different from any other? The book says if you want to upgrade a lodge, you just add more materials. It doesn't specify any other conditions. Why can't you buy 5 materials at availability 10, then 5 more at availability 10, and build a force 10 lodge?
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Because there has to be something to limit the force of the lodge. Otherwise everyone would have ridiculously high lodge ratings.
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The only real limit is the time to set up the lodge, which is Force X days(?)....(away from books but that is what I remember)
So really, upgrading a lodge from R6 to R7 is only ¥500, but takes 7 days...
Eventually you end up with the time needed being the biggest setback as you may just not have the time needed free! - such as your team is constantly on runs....
Which leaves you with a choice, go on the run and get paid, or not and add to your lodge.
But keep in mind, the lodge does have a limited amount of use.... which is not for all mages and builds...
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Where does it say that one lodge material is different from any other? The book says if you want to upgrade a lodge, you just add more materials. It doesn't specify any other conditions. Why can't you buy 5 materials at availability 10, then 5 more at availability 10, and build a force 10 lodge?
I'll go with Consider rating complexity to be exponential not linear. (the real answer being b/c the rules said so)
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Magical paraphernalia and spell casting above rating 3 is licensed in default Seattle setting. A rating 12 would be the magical equivalent of drug lab or bomb factory. While you MIGHT have a fake permit for it, nobody will believe it because they are rare as hen's teeth and regulated. There are damn few permits for that rating and very easy to verify. They aren't very hideable since they will stand out like a sore thumb in the astral. So, you need the materials, space to set it up, time to charge it and nobody can notice it during that time or you could be raided and have the whole thing confiscated.
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Where does it say that one lodge material is different from any other? The book says if you want to upgrade a lodge, you just add more materials. It doesn't specify any other conditions. Why can't you buy 5 materials at availability 10, then 5 more at availability 10, and build a force 10 lodge?
It doesn't say it explicitly, but at least in my groups we have ruled that (at least conceptually) the materials needed to upgrade a lodge from 5 to 10 are different from the materials needed to get a rating 5 in the first place. Otherwise, you could just do the availability test for a Rating 3 and buy two of them to be able to make a 6, which doesn't make sense.
Now, the rules do state that it doesn't cost any more money to be able to upgrade, so we don't make it cost any more, but the test be able to find more materials uses the availability of the total rating of lodge materials you want to have in the end. So, for example, if you started with a Rating 5 lodge (or previously found the necessary materials for one), and wanted to upgrade to a Rating 10, you would need to make an availability test against the full Availability of a Rating 10 (in this case Availability 20) in order to successfully find the necessary materials. Now, once you've found the materials, since you already have a 5, you only need to pay the difference in cost, which in this case would be another 2,500 nuyen to upgrade from what you have to what you want.
You do need to remember that it still takes the full time to reform the lodge (10 days), and I don't remember if it is listed in the 5th edition book, but lodges have a minimum size based on their rating. So bigger lodges are more noticeable and harder to fit as you get bigger.
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Does this Rating 10 Lodge make me look Fat? :P
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Because there has to be something to limit the force of the lodge. Otherwise everyone would have ridiculously high lodge ratings.
Why is that a problem?
Magical paraphernalia and spell casting above rating 3 is licensed in default Seattle setting. A rating 12 would be the magical equivalent of drug lab or bomb factory. While you MIGHT have a fake permit for it, nobody will believe it because they are rare as hen's teeth and regulated. There are damn few permits for that rating and very easy to verify. They aren't very hideable since they will stand out like a sore thumb in the astral. So, you need the materials, space to set it up, time to charge it and nobody can notice it during that time or you could be raided and have the whole thing confiscated.
Where does it say that?
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Because there has to be something to limit the force of the lodge. Otherwise everyone would have ridiculously high lodge ratings.
Why is that a problem?
Magical paraphernalia and spell casting above rating 3 is licensed in default Seattle setting. A rating 12 would be the magical equivalent of drug lab or bomb factory. While you MIGHT have a fake permit for it, nobody will believe it because they are rare as hen's teeth and regulated. There are damn few permits for that rating and very easy to verify. They aren't very hideable since they will stand out like a sore thumb in the astral. So, you need the materials, space to set it up, time to charge it and nobody can notice it during that time or you could be raided and have the whole thing confiscated.
Where does it say that?
In regard to Joe's comment I imagine that this is one of those things that has carried over from earlier editions without them printing it in the rules. We won't play that it has to be licensed. If the rules don't restrict it, then no license.
As to why there should be a limit? Balance among archetypes. There aren't things that get infinitely better in Shadowrun without a scaling cost. Also because I want to push through mana barriers as a character. If it's no problem for me to have an R50 lodge, then suddenly any mage who has been somewhere for more than a year has R50 mana barrier. Also because that is how I read the rules. The availability of the lodge is Rx2. Its nice that the rules allow us to upgrade the lodge, rather than require that a lodge be bought as a complete "kit". Stretching that further and saying that we can buy 5 R6 lodges separately and combine them to get around availability rules should not be allowed in my opinion (because that's what SR discussions usually are, opinions, since the rules are incredibly open to interpretation). Obviously we all play in a way that we enjoy the game.
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The magical paraphernalia thing is in the sidebar thing about magician licenses. It is in the core rule book. I'm not sure if it was under SINs or under magic.
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Huh, there it is... P 68 Core Book:
LIFE FOR A MAGIC USER IN 2075: Magic has been back in the world for more than sixty years, but the Awakened—the term for those who channel magic—remain a small minority of the population. As a result, they are both admired and feared. They are the subjects of wild rumors, baseless speculation, and the occasional freefloating prejudice. Many mundane metahumans fear what the Awakened can do with their abilities. There have been magic-based terror attacks, ranging from the Ghost Dance to the global attacks Winternight launched before and during the second Matrix Crash in 2064, that give credence to these fears. Policlubs like Humanis feed these fears, building them up to spark hate and violence against the Awakened. As a reflection of this fear and as a measure of caution, many sprawls require magic users to register their gear, spell formulas, and spirits (typically they only care about spirits and gear of at least moderate power—in game terms, those with a rating of 3 or higher). They are required to purchase licenses in order to legitimately carry and use magic. These legal licenses often come with invasive requirements, including being subjected to compliance checks that can be conducted at any time, giving law-enforcement corporations the right to search a magic user’s premises without a warrant, even when the person is not present. Some sprawls require magic users to give law enforcement agencies and/ or security corporations blood samples that could serve as material links to track the character magically if necessary. Because of this, many magic users in the shadows have fake IDs and licenses, partly so they won’t get nabbed by the cops, but also so they don’t have to turn any part of their bodies over to them. Rules and cost for magic items and licenses are found in the Street Gear section (p. 416). Since magic is such a rare commodity, it is very much desired by the megacorporations. Legally registered magic users often find themselves the targets of extractions, snatched by rival megacorporations looking to press them into employment. The Awakened have their own prejudices, often against magic users not of their type (e.g., magicians are sometimes prejudiced against adepts). Since they are limited in what they can do, aspected magicians suffer the most prejudice within the Awakened community. Many see them as not fully Awakened or not full magic users, and they are barred from many magic groups.