Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Senko on <12-07-15/2331:28>
-
I'm curious it's theoretically possible for someone's religion and tradition to be different when making a character. For example a devout Christian who's a vindaloo mage. Logically your tradition should go off your personality so your usually going to have the two match up. However I'm wondering is there any examples in the novels/game of someone with Differing/opposed religious beliefs and tradition? Not just trained and awakened as something that came as a surprise but a practising X who's casting according to Y tradition?
-
Vindaloo? You mean Voodoo, or spicy potato Indian dish? I'd totally make a curry mage...
There's probably a good number of the non-religious Traditions with religious followers; Hermetic magic doesn't obviate the presence of religion, for example. I guess you could do a Catholic with a form of the Voodoo tradition if they follow more along some paths. But a Catholic practicing Asatru, or Shinto? Unlikely.
-
No reason u can't from mechanics point of view. Some could go together better than others. I'd have a hard time believing a aesirr following devout catholic. But plenty of others would work together fine.
-
There are some religions that have their own magical traditions, so it is highly likely that someone who identifies with a faith to follow that tradition, and that tradition only.
There are exceptions, just like in real life, but it doesn't really make much sense with your examples... cause you have listed two seperate faiths! (Voodoo is a religion that pulls on both catholic and regional pagen beliefs and rolls them together...)
That's kinda like saying "I'm christian, but I only follow the teachings of the Quran"..... :o
-
IIRC, major religions like islam, christians and judaism have each one a different view on magic. Chatolics forbid magic at all aside from an order of casting priests (order of St. Sylvester). Jews have the Quabbalah, a tradition itself with elements from quabbalah and hesoterics, but made of rabbi. Islam had the most radical view: all awakaned are of Shaitan and shall be destroyed, until 2050-ish where limited forms of healing magic were accepted. Spirit (Djinns) summoning is banned, as they are viewed as demons. More on this topic should be in MITS (3rd edition).
-
hmmm
If You're a devout Christian than I doubt that you can "Mix" your Faith with Voodoo so much as to play a Voodoo Tradition Mage
In 4A you could form your own Tradition. I f.E. played a Cao Dai Mage and a follower of Mother Earth.
So (ImO) you should define the Faith of your Char and create his own Tradition, together with your GM, using the 4A Rules
With his own Dance
Medicineman
-
If it helps. In the first Shadowrun Novel, the main character is a Christian and then "slowly" awakens to magic, and actually becomes a Shamanic Tradition Mage following Dog as his totem. This was written before the traditions were widened out however, so Christian Theurgy wasn't really a thing.
But based on that, I would say that it would be pretty reasonable to be a devout character that follows a certain religion, but when it comes to magic you have a more "non-denominational" view. Basically, you just are Hermetic or Shamanic, which are still by and large the most common traditions, even though you are (for example) Christian.
-
+1 for opinions above. Most traditions outside of Hermetic, Shamanic and Chaos are religions (or at least a philosophy that replaces religion). I can't see mixing two in one character. Magic is about belief, I think. If you are devoutly Christian (and for all practical purposes in SR this seems to mean Catholic), I can't see your Magic tradition following another tradition that is based off of a religion. Maybe a character who grew up Catholic, still goes to Mass to keep grandma happy, but is a closet pagan. That makes sense. But I can't see a devout Christian being Voodoo, as I imagine Christians seeing spirits as either angels or demons, and being possessed by any spirit should be totally taboo for a Christian. Because if you are a follower of Voodoo, you aren't a devout Christian, you left that for the Voudan religion.
Buuuuut, I can totally see a devout Christian being hermetic, chaos (especially non Catholic Christians) or even shamanic traditions. Shamanic would be the worst fit though, due to traditional Christian views regarding spirits, and animist religions of old.
Last thought, I can imagine a person who believes they are a devout Christian, who begins following Voodoo, and still thinks they are a Christian. The Christians would no longer agree (heretic!). Now we move into different territory...
Kind of hard to claim a religion when no one in that religion accepts you as practicing the same faith as they do.
-
I don't know -- I think there was a long history in and around New Orleans of going to mass on Sunday and confessing your sins, but calling on the local Voodoo priest(ess) for most other issues? Granted, this is more historical than contemporary, but it shows that for many people, the two were not mutually exclusive.
And "devout" can have different shades of meaning. Does it mean that you hold the beliefs strongly? That you reject all other interpretations of things? That you follow the strictures of your religion and its leaders to the letter? That you take care not to be caught breaking any of rules of your religion?
-
I'm totally adding a pink mohawk Jews for Jesus sect.
-
Wouldn't that be Pink Payots instead? :P
TselelRun™
-
My character is a Christian (maybe theist might be a better term. But he has a somewhat christian upbringing.) who follows a totem as a mentor rather then a god. I know several Christians that if they obtained magic powers that wasn't proven to be utterly demonic in origin or like blood magic (and perhaps even then...) would not give any sort of crap about having them and would be utterly elated to have them(myself included). Some Christians are kinda lazy or as I like to calm them "loopholish" about what constitutes as religious. If we wanna give a real world example one of my best nerd friends is gay. I honestly don't care. Seriously. I don't even care enough to find some reason to justify hanging out biblically. It doesn't come up in conversation. I don't judge people unless they do something extremely vulgar or immoral or were part of some corruption process of an otherwise amazing cartoon channel. *cough* Miley Cyrus *cough* If you want realism you gotta understand that some mainstream religions have more the their fair share of lazy followers. Also my choices in this matter have to do with morality. But I'm not here to toot my own horn or defend my religion. But from my perspective if your going for realism I could easily see Christians in the shadowrun universe using their magic without really regarding what they are doing as wrong or trying to justify it somehow. Up to an including using a tradition completely counter to their religious beliefs which would make them, stupid, lazy, in denial, or just straight up lying about it. A Christian of Shinto(it's an religion in of itself)tradition would be an example of this. Which would make one ponder how the cuss they got that tradition in the first place. But that's where roleplay comes in. Just my two cents. Don't underestimate the power of apathy. And don't place too much value in common sense or sanity or dogma. I mean it's not like Christians in the past have warped the bible for their own personal gain. (Looking at you Cortez.)
-
My point was made regarding devout followers of a faith.
I view the religious magic traditions as being used by the devout followers of a religion. If you say you are Christian, but you learned magic from a Shinto, and all your use of magic is filtered through the lens of Shintoism, my thoughts are that you would end up being Shinto.
Apathetic Christians are the result of people not being invested in their own beliefs. In Rome in 300 AD there were no apathetic Christians. Similarly, if your practice of magic is embedded in a belief system, I don't see how you practice magic without being invested in that belief system.
I see it more likely that an apathetic Christian would either follow ther hermetic, chaos or maybe shamanic traditions.
Of course, that's how I see it. It's not like there is some munchkin reason for having a Christian Shinto Mage. Makes for interesting role play I'm sure. I guess I'm just theorizing that it would be unusual.
-
My point was made regarding devout followers of a faith.
I view the religious magic traditions as being used by the devout followers of a religion. If you say you are Christian, but you learned magic from a Shinto, and all your use of magic is filtered through the lens of Shintoism, my thoughts are that you would end up being Shinto.
Apathetic Christians are the result of people not being invested in their own beliefs. In Rome in 300 AD there were no apathetic Christians. Similarly, if your practice of magic is embedded in a belief system, I don't see how you practice magic without being invested in that belief system.
I see it more likely that an apathetic Christian would either follow ther hermetic, chaos or maybe shamanic traditions.
Of course, that's how I see it. It's not like there is some munchkin reason for having a Christian Shinto Mage. Makes for interesting role play I'm sure. I guess I'm just theorizing that it would be unusual.
Ah. I misunderstood. My apologies if it seemed like I derailed a thread.
-
@Raiderjoseph
I didn't think so and its my thread.
@General
Yes I meant Voodoo not Vindaloo autocorrect strikes again I was ready for mage to make since my phone refuses to admit "mage" exists but I missed Voodoo to Vindaloo.
Interesting ideas here especially the one about not realizing your veiws are heretical or worse realizing it and embracing it especially for an NPC villian "Trust me christ is all about blood and sacrifice you symbolically eat his flesh and drink his blood every day in mass this is just an extension of that." all leading up to a massive blood ritual to summon a blood spirit.
I admit I personally tend towards the shinto tradition more than the others because it appeals to me on a lot of flavour reasons but I'm not sure I'd call myself a Shintoist when it comes to religion. I'm not anything really but if I was put in a "Choose a religion or we chop off your head" situation I'd be likely to go for that but that's another discussion.
Anyway this does bring up the question about the opposite side of the coin, that is for these religious traditions (nearly all of them) how much of what you practice is religious in nature. To use the cahtlicism example is a mage of the catholic tradition merely sharing their general views (this is an angel, that is a demon, this is appropriate), are they a worshiper (attend church on sunday, pray at night, confess their sins) or are they a full fledged priest (take all the vows, able to perform marriages and funerals etc)? I know there's plenty of examples in books of shamans following a mentor spirit (dog, cat, bear) and not being a SHAMAN of a tribe but are they merely shamanistic mages or are they shamans who are lousy at doing their job? Especially for the ones with a heavy spirit influence (Shinto, Shaman, Voodoo, etc) where do the spirit and human worlds cross? If Dog choose sam to be her Shaman does that make Sam a SHAMAN with no tribe and no training as far as the spirit world is concerned or does that merely make him a mage of their tradition? If you see what I mean?
I can very easily see a native American awakening to the Shamanistic tradition and protesting their NOT the tribes medicine man while their mentor Coyote sits their grinning and arranging things to ensure the silly stubborn human learns the lessons they'll need to become the priest(?) they're meant to be for their tribe.
Given that priesthood is a human concern more than a spiritiual one (in terms of licensing, etc) what happens to a mage who awakens as one of those religious traditions do they just get magic training or do they get trained under the assumption they'll become a priest of X when they graduate. That is in addition to being taught arcana and magical theory you get taught the theology of your traditions religion and then take your vows of priesthood at the same time? To give an example Medicineman, myself and another lets call him ED are all found by a corporation and given magical training in school he awakens as a Shaman (I assume from the name), I awaken as a SHintoist and Ed awakens as a Hermetic mage. We all have the magical trainining but am I trained to be a Shinto priestess while Medicineman is trained in the theology of the native american people in addition to that?
@Medicineman
Which book has the make your own tradition stuff because there have been a few characters I'd have liked to do that for.
-
Voodoo + Catholicism = Santeria
I had an aunt who practiced it.
To each their own.
-
@Senko
My bad. Also to add let's do a scenario where a shaman of the bear totem who is a priest of the tribe is actually worse(He is good at magic but not as good as) then the hermetic mage who happens to have Bear as a totem as well and isn't even a native american. What then? It's possible that devout faith may not be the only determining factor. Or heritage. I imagine skill comes along as well or you wouldn't need to train. So is a religious heritage magician who follows their religion more then another mage who follows the same religious heritage but is not as devout better or worse them the other based on that factor of devoutness... is magic solely based on belief is what I'm asking. I have no idea personally I'm a Newb. But what do you all think?
-
Keep in mind that the useage of 'Mage' and 'shaman' are not religious terms in SR, but reflect the individual path an awakened takes to unlock their mana -and thus cast spells.
A 'mage' takes a more studious view of magic, believing it can be defined, catalouged, threorized, and put into an equation..... they are 'scholars' and 'scientists' of magic, regardless of if they have a mentor spirit or not.
A 'shaman' takes a more holistic view of magic, finding it in chant, song, dance and art. They are the 'light hearted' and 'hippie flower children' of magic.
This boils down to HOW they learn new spells and even channel mana. A mage might study a thesis paper, or write a mathmatical formulae. A shaman might learn a dance, or create/study a work of art.
The same goes for casting:
A mage might mentally recite the theory of relativity, or genus of a species....
A shaman may recall a song, or visualize the Mona Lisa...
This extends to teaching too, hence why it is harder for a mage to teach a shaman or vise versa.
It is also why there is no disjoin between a Shinto mage or a shinto shaman. They both are followers of shinto, but the path they take would be different. The mage may focus solely on the scriptures of Shinto, while the shaman may focus on shinto artwork.
They are the same 'beast' at the core, they just walk different roads of their faith.
-
Keep in mind that the useage of 'Mage' and 'shaman' are not religious terms in SR, but reflect the individual path an awakened takes to unlock their mana -and thus cast spells.
A 'mage' takes a more studious view of magic, believing it can be defined, catalouged, threorized, and put into an equation..... they are 'scholars' and 'scientists' of magic, regardless of if they have a mentor spirit or not.
A 'shaman' takes a more holistic view of magic, finding it in chant, song, dance and art. They are the 'light hearted' and 'hippie flower children' of magic.
This boils down to HOW they learn new spells and even channel mana. A mage might study a thesis paper, or write a mathmatical formulae. A shaman might learn a dance, or create/study a work of art.
The same goes for casting:
A mage might mentally recite the theory of relativity, or genus of a species....
A shaman may recall a song, or visualize the Mona Lisa...
This extends to teaching too, hence why it is harder for a mage to teach a shaman or vise versa.
It is also why there is no disjoin between a Shinto mage or a shinto shaman. They both are followers of shinto, but the path they take would be different. The mage may focus solely on the scriptures of Shinto, while the shaman may focus on shinto artwork.
They are the same 'beast' at the core, they just walk different roads of their faith.
What determines who is the better caster then?
-
Nothing.
From a mechanics view: they are totally equal.
Its all style, and no substance.
A fireball formula for a mage might be a thesis paper.
A fireball formula for a shaman might be a painting.
Both hurt the target equally.
Both can cast the spell without an outward appearance. (The mage is NOT standing screaming "E=MC^2!!!" Nor is the shaman prancing in a circle. Unless they want to...)
In game terms, there is ZERO difference between a mage and a shaman....
Fluff wise, there is, and prejudices abound depending on cultural factors: Shamans are held in higher regard in tribal communities, and mages in corporate...
But that is just that, fluff.
-
Nothing.
From a mechanics view: they are totally equal.
Its all style, and no substance.
But then... what about individual casting? Like... I dunno what to compare it to. Ok ok... Cadderly is a cleric from the Clerical... something... it's a quintet of books. Guy who did Drizzt Do'Urden did the series. In the game wisdom determines how good a cleric is with spells. In the books it appears as if his deity Deneir gives him favor and more powerful spells in relation to his growing faith(by the way if you ever think Drizzt Do'Urden is a Mary sue Cadderly is WORSE. First book... with only the help of two dwarf fighters and a self conflicted druid and his OP as hell monk girlfriend(note... I word this intention because guess what...) the 0 spells at all not even a cleric, his only weapons are yo yos(granted these are feasible weapons but really?...) and plot armor exploding darts... Jesus I don't even wanna use this guy as an example, defeats a high powered cleric with a demon possessed mace.) Gains enough magic powers through his faith to summon a storm of destruction, perform mind control on a dragon through a charm to make it friendly(this is a red dragon... to add to the fact this a dragon PERIOD), cast a magic earthquake without somatic or verbal components, and my personal favorite, when the goddess of magic falls and his own deity DIES... it dies here... he manages to cast several spells of what could only he considered 9th level magic during the FREAKING SPELLPLAGUE and traps and defeats a being so powerful that it SCARED AND SENT JARAXLE, THE GUY WHO PERFORMED MASS TREASON IN BROAD DAYLIGHT IN FRONT OF A PALADIN KING AND WALKED OUT OF THAT SITUATION WITH NO RETALIATION, BAERNE ON THE RUN in a demiplane...
I ranted and lost my point... uh... oh. Let me put it this way. What statistically determines individual casting skill in the shadowrun universe. What determines skill?
-
Magic rating and associated skills VS what you are trying to do. (Spellcasting to cast. Conjuring to summon. Ritual casting for rituals, yadda-yadda-yadda).
Neither mage nor shaman have any advantage or disadvantage.
As I said, mechanically they are exactly the same. The only difference is fluff.
There is no real limits placed on either, other then those that the player makes himself due to the choices he makes for attributes and skill selection and race.
ALL races can be either.
ALL ethnicities can be either.
They can BOTH cast the EXACT same spells, regardless of how they learn them.
The ONLY difference is fluff.
●●●●
SR is NOT DnD.... they are entirely seperate and handle magic in completely different ways. Trying to compare the two is like trying to compare fruits and veggies to cows....
One is a salad...
One is a real food.
:P
-
Magic rating and associated skills VS what you are trying to do. (Spellcasting to cast. Conjuring to summon. Ritual casting for rituals, yadda-yadda-yadda).
Neither mage nor shaman have any advantage or disadvantage.
As I said, mechanically the are exactly the same. The only difference is fluff.
Wow... a fictional canon that storytelling wise follows the formula of it's roleplaying aspect. Sign me up. I love this. For the most part Spellcasters unless fighting other casters of any sort are only weak against other casters or plot armored individuals in DnD fiction.
Edit: In my experience the actual game is a different story. Oh you think your magic is gonna the orc warlord and you just so happen to not have abjection powerful enough to keep him at bay. Did fireball not kill him? Sweet what's your backup plan? Oh wait... he gets HOW many attacks a round... half your Hp later... whoops. You didn't memorize that spell you know that would one shot him. Sorry. (I read your edit btw. I think I'm gonna enjoy the shadowrun universe.)
-
The biggest handy cap to mages/shamans in SR is...
The obscene amounts of lead and explosions directed to them after their first spell....
SR Rules of Combat:
Rule 1: Geek the mage FIRST!
Rule 2: shoot him again. Just to make sure.
-
The biggest handy cap to mages/shamans in SR is...
The obscene amounts of lead and explosions directed to them after their first spell....
SR Rules of Combat:
Rule 1: Geek the mage FIRST!
Rule 2: shoot him again. Just to make sure.
See the above edit. And I think I'm gonna enjoy the shadowrun universe... I'll say it again.
-
The biggest handy cap to mages/shamans in SR is...
The obscene amounts of lead and explosions directed to them after their first spell....
SR Rules of Combat:
Rule 1: Geek the mage FIRST!
Rule 2: shoot him again. Just to make sure.
All ya gotta due is make sure none of the Oppo lives through your first spell.
Not a big deal.
-
Depending on which side of the fence you sit, Shadowrun's official name is actually Magerun.
Due to the fact that magic can get obscenely powerful.
"Yes but how powerful?"
My mage, which I have played now since the winter of 1989 (started a few weeks after SR1 came out) is sitting a 4300+ karma.
He can turn just about everything within a 24meter radius (thats just under a 160 foot diameter) to ASH with a single spell. Cars, soldiers, little children, armored personnel carriers....
But the question becomes, can he survive the repercussions of such a spell?
And, simply put, "No he can't".
Unlike in DnD where the majority of fights happen in "the evil <insert trope here> lair/maze/dungeon", the majority of SR combat happens in hallways of buildings, back alleys and almost entirely in cities. And cities have more police with more guns and bullets then he has chances to resist drain (the other limiter of mages - how destructive casting a spell is to THEM!).
smart (aka: want to keep living and free!) Mages learn fast that sometimes 'the magical option' is actually the worst option. Or they just leave combat to the 'combat monsters' (sammurai) <which is what I do> and act more as debuffers or enhancers to their teammates.
Add to that, magic is RARE! Depending on the source you read, only between 1 -5% of the world have any magical potential. Less who can actually DO something. And when something is rare and unknown, it breeds fear and hatred. (Hence the "Geek the mage First" combat rule. Seriously. It IS a rule!!)
You start throwing magic around, people shoot first, collect your body after. Then there are the 'rules' of magic.
No teleportation.
No raising the dead.*
No time travel.
No "magic guns"**
* Raising the dead doesn't bring back what died.
** ranged magical items are extremely limited. Both in terms of exactly what can be used (arrows, axes, knives, etc. NO GUNS!!!) And how long they stay "magical" for.. (if you are extremely skilled.... maybe a week. Tops.)
So there are limits to magic.
Mages are also extremely slow to progress. They need karma for EVERYTHING. And karma is slow to accumulate.
Money for a mage is almost useless without the karma as there is almost nothing a mage can buy to increase his abilities that:
A: doesn't also require karma (foci, spells, initiations)
B: doesn't also have the ability to hurt his magical abilities. (Bioware, cyberware, drugs)
A nage needs karma to improve every facet of himself:
Attributes
Skills
Magic rating
Initiation
Foci
They all take increasing amounts of karma. And you usually only get 4 to 8 per run. Meaning, a mage generally has to do several runs before they get their first boost/improvement to their character. (For example: For my mage to initiate AND raise his magic attribute it will cost me just under 200 karma. About 20 runs. Then the actual act will take several MONTHS. Time which I am NOT earning karma while the rest of the team will be.)
The other archtypes can just throw money around to get a boost to their character. Be it cyberware, bioware, new gear, decks, drones... (provided they HAVE the money. The top shelf stuff costs you an arm, leg and your first and second unborn children. Plus your kidney.) And then they are free to use karma to raise their skills and attributes on top of said gear.....
●●●●
Mages are slow to power, die quickly if your not careful, and exceedly frustrating in math. But the final result are powerhouses with almost no equal...... if you survive long enough (and your game lasts long enough! - took me 25+ years to get to my level of ability).
-
Depending on which side of the fence you sit, Shadowrun's official name is actually Magerun.
Due to the fact that magic can get obscenely powerful.
"Yes but how powerful?"
My mage, which I have played now since the winter of 1989 (started a few weeks after SR1 came out) is sitting a 4300+ karma.
He can turn just about everything within a 24meter radius (thats just under a 160 foot diameter) to ASH with a single spell. Cars, soldiers, little children, armored personnel carriers....
But the question becomes, can he survive the repercussions of such a spell?
And, simply put, "No he can't".
Unlike in DnD where the majority of fights happen in "the evil <insert trope here> lair/maze/dungeon", the majority of SR combat happens in hallways of buildings, back alleys and almost entirely in cities. And cities have more police with more guns and bullets then he has chances to resist drain (the other limiter of mages - how destructive casting a spell is to THEM!).
smart (aka: want to keep living and free!) Mages learn fast that sometimes 'the magical option' is actually the worst option. Or they just leave combat to the 'combat monsters' (sammurai) <which is what I do> and act more as debuffers or enhancers to their teammates.
Add to that, magic is RARE! Depending on the source you read, only between 1 -5% of the world have any magical potential. Less who can actually DO something. And when something is rare and unknown, it breeds fear and hatred. (Hence the "Geek the mage First" combat rule. Seriously. It IS a rule!!)
You start throwing magic around, people shoot first, collect your body after. Then there are the 'rules' of magic.
No teleportation.
No raising the dead.*
No time travel.
No "magic guns"**
* Raising the dead doesn't bring back what died.
** ranged magical items are extremely limited. Both in terms of exactly what can be used (arrows, axes, knives, etc. NO GUNS!!!) And how long they stay "magical" for.. (if you are extremely skilled.... maybe a week. Tops.)
So there are limits to magic.
Mages are also extremely slow to progress. They need karma for EVERYTHING. And karma is slow to accumulate.
Money for a mage is almost useless without the karma as there is almost nothing a mage can buy to increase his abilities that:
A: doesn't also require karma (foci, spells, initiations)
B: doesn't also have the ability to hurt his magical abilities. (Bioware, cyberware, drugs)
A nage needs karma to improve every facet of himself:
Attributes
Skills
Magic rating
Initiation
Foci
They all take increasing amounts of karma. And you usually only get 4 to 8 per run. Meaning, a mage generally has to do several runs before they get their first boost/improvement to their character. (For example: For my mage to initiate AND raise his magic attribute it will cost me just under 200 karma. About 20 runs. Then the actual act will take several MONTHS. Time which I am NOT earning karma while the rest of the team will be.)
The other archtypes can just throw money around to get a boost to their character. Be it cyberware, bioware, new gear, decks, drones... (provided they HAVE the money. The top shelf stuff costs you an arm, leg and your first and second unborn children. Plus your kidney.) And then they are free to use karma to raise their skills and attributes on top of said gear.....
●●●●
Mages are slow to power, die quickly if your not careful, and exceedly frustrating in math. But the final result are powerhouses with almost no equal...... if you survive long enough (and your game lasts long enough! - took me 25+ years to get to my level of ability).
Thank god I'm an adapt... they seem more likely to survive combat... at least I HOPE so...
-
If you initiate 14 times you can have Combat Sense [20].
That almost always help in surviving.
-
Try a mystic adept spells, physical ability and even slower progression.
I'd rather like to see this 4,300 mages stat's.
Interesting that all traditions can have mages vs shamans while still being the same core tradition. I think I'm more a Shinto make than a Shinto shaman but am I a Shinto priest?
I'm not talking about divine vs arcane casting but I suppose the Moral and cultural trappings. Tom the shaman shaman and Tim the shaman mage both use the same tradition/methods/etc but are they viewed as priests or spellcasters, do they get trained as the tribal shaman because they're native American shaman tradition. If you see what I mean not the mechanics but the cultural view.
I'm a Shinto tradition with a mages outlook it can be quantified and controlled, even the spirits I bargain with have known tastes and attitudes. However when identified does the Corp train me in magic or magic and theology? Whether I wind up a Shinto priestess or just a follower of the Shinto tradition won't change my caster but it might change peoples reactions to me. It might mean the Corp puts me in charge of their shrine as opposed to their hospital. That's what I'm wondering about here the human world's interaction when you find out someone is of a tradition that has heavy religious underpinnings. If everyone knows all catholic mages are priests do all identified catholic mages get trained and ordained into the magic using order.
-
A 4,300 Karma Mage? Good God that bastard must be a monster. I'm afraid to rebuild the mage I had from 3rd, and she'd only have around 1,200.
Heck, the Street Sam I had in that game (everyone had two characters) with the same amount of karma (along with ridiculous levels of cash being gained during that game) is monstrous.
-
Oh and those magic rules aren't absolute there's at least one case of a dragon teleporting a group of runners but it took a lot out of him and presumably there's some explanation for real life religious figures who came back plus whatever the eleves in Nosferatu are.
-
There's multiple cases of dragons 'teleporting' people, if you look around; most are explained or surmised as extremely quick travel due to magic, not actual teleportation. I mean, appropriately stacked use of Movement, Increase Agility, etc. can practically put people past the sound barrier on foot.
You're making the assumption those people actually came back, as opposed to making it look like they died or (a disturbingly frequent event) were thought dead due to poor understanding of the human body back in the day. When certain eras went out and made little bells for people who wake up in a coffin to ring for aid, somebody 'coming back' isn't hard to extrapolate.
The elves in Nosferatu? What?
-
This one is pretty explicit about it being teleporting since they're in one spot and then another.
The ones I'm thinking of are real life but I'm not saying more due to religious don't talk terms of service.
They crop up at the end of Nosferatu with weird weapons, insane power, some bound spirit that seems to be able to remove cyberwear and fix essence holes and some inexplicable knowledge of previous lives of the main character. They also seem to be there just to throw a "this is a dystopian setting, the heroes really accomplished nothing oh were going to kill this one off-screen because we can Nyah, Nyah, Nyah" spanner in the happy ending.
-
@Medicineman
Which book has the make your own tradition stuff because there have been a few characters I'd have liked to do that for.
:)
4A Streetmagic ( of Course ;) )
I was a bit disapointed that it wasn't in SR 5
with a nice Dance (of Course)
Medicineman
-
Thanks.
-
Hawatari is sitting on over 4100 karma herself; the Wyrm has roughly 7500. They've been played regularly since the beginning too.
This said, a few things should be remembered/realized: while many religions have what they might describe as a 'codified' magical system, it can vary from sect to sect. Christians may see things generally the same, but if you talk to your GM, you can reskin whatever it is you want into some version of Christianity - whether that's Lutheranism, Mormonism, Baptist, or whatever, or even a particular order within the Catholic Church - because the Dogs of God (Dominicans) don't see things the same way that those of the Society of Jesus (Jesuits) do, or the Franciscians, or the Xaverians, etc. Just because the game designers set up the 'magical Way of Shintoism' a certain way doesn't mean your Shinto priestess needs to view things that way; there is sufficient variation in every religion to be able to alter the framework and find a sect or viewpoint of that religion so that your magic matches your religion.
Note that Catholics can use magic, but summoning is officially restricted to the general clergy, not just the Sylvestrines - not that people who CAN summon would refrain from doing so, any more than people who CAN have sex outside of the bonds of holy matrimony do so; it all depends on the person's level of devotion.
In regards to the teleport / back from the dead, Senko, please make sure you fill in all your facts. Any mentioned 'teleport' has been sufficiently explained by high-Force Levitation + other added movement stuff. Any mentioned coming back from the dead, religious (i.e. Ibn Eisa) or not, was clarified as having been a malevolent spirit (shedim) possessing and reconstructing the corpse. And killing (we could only wish) Brightlight was what the character deserved, for having been a Carl Sargent / Marc Gascione creation. I dearly wish their writing could be entirely excised from the world of Shadowrun, because it is hands down the worst crap I have ever read for a game.
-
I don't even know who brightlight is I was referring to Niall and the ones who show up intending to kill him for treachery.
Hmm don't recall that levitation bit what I saw was from one location to another, I assumed it was achieved via some manipulation of metaplanes myself but I do recall it being mentioned as teleporting plus knocking a dragon out of contention for a prolonged period of time (not something most could do). So benevolent shedim seems it's setting itself up for some major hole picking by other religions. That said filling in facts is what I'm doing with this and other threads e.g. the shedim bit.
7500 that's a scary amount of karma.
As for personal Shinto mage I don't actually need to reskin all that much my tastes and limited understanding of these things with the brief blurb it gives is enough to make me quite happy in a way I wouldn't be as a straight Hermetic or any of the others really.
-
Benevolent shedim? That sounds like an oxymoron to me.
-
:)
4A Streetmagic ( of Course ;) )
I was a bit disapointed that it wasn't in SR 5
with a nice Dance (of Course)
Medicineman
God I miss 4e Streetmagic that was a magic books. Comparing it and SG just makes me depressed.
Sigh.
I don't even know what I would do with 4300 Karma, I'd need a weekend and a couple spread sheets, to even begin too compare builds in that range.
-
I'd probably expand my options better offence/defence, some computer ability, nice bug upgrade to my magic, anything left pick up some nice extras like artisan.
-
7500 karma!! Just over 400 karma gets you to magic 12 with 6 initiations. Another 400 would probably more than net you all the metamagics in the books. Add another few hundred to max out all your stats. Holy cow.
-
I think I'll make a 7500 character to see what it looks like maybe even make a thread what would you may with 7500 karma if you were making something youd like to be. Only problem is how much cash would this the wyrm have gotten at the same time.
-
While a lot of the traditions are religious in nature, but they vary a lot in how religious they are, and how tied to their traditional faith they are. Also, not every religion is exclusive - the entry for Buddhism talks about how most Buddhist spellcasters actually follow the Shinto or Wuxing traditions. Heck, "Born Shinto, Marry Christian, Die Buddhist" is a phrase used in Japan today.
Exclusive religions such as Christianity won't necessarily all practice Theurgy - a lot of them will gravitate towards hermetic or chaos magic. I could also see them treating traditions like British Druids or Qabbalism as "ancient teachings" rather than a religion, or following traditions with loose, if any, formal religious ties, like Shamanism or Wuxing.
-
You're ... more than a little off the page on that, Senko. Ibn Eisa was by no means 'benevolent' after his assassination-cum-resurrection-actual-inhabitation; he turned his followers into basically a new and active jihad.
And exactly, Glyph - and as I said, 'Christian theurgy' needn't be the structure that the book has it as. It's a game; games can be altered. (We have the technology.)
As for the whole 'how much you can do with X karma' - always remember that you can do that one thing, sure, but there's a lot that needs to be done if you're operating at that sort of level. While it takes 100 karma to get an attribute from 1 to 6, if you have higher base attributes, you have a higher top-end cost. To boot, skills cost a lot to push into the higher reaches; a Grade 12 initiate with a Magic of 18 is a huge karma sink, but if you don't gain in your skills as well, you're halfway to throwing it away.
-
I got into a bad argument about this before, but it was also under 3E rules (the SR3 core says that totems are spirits that imbue shamans with power), over the idea of a Christian shaman. I think it's impossible to reconcile because God and/or the Totem would both demand absolute allegiance to themselves over other gods (that is, each other). Others disagreed.
The way I see it, there may be Mentors supporting Occult Studies students at Georgetown, but there are not Catholic shamans who worship their Totems because that's a bridge too far.
-
You're ... more than a little off the page on that, Senko. Ibn Eisa was by no means 'benevolent' after his assassination-cum-resurrection-actual-inhabitation; he turned his followers into basically a new and active jihad.
And exactly, Glyph - and as I said, 'Christian theurgy' needn't be the structure that the book has it as. It's a game; games can be altered. (We have the technology.)
As for the whole 'how much you can do with X karma' - always remember that you can do that one thing, sure, but there's a lot that needs to be done if you're operating at that sort of level. While it takes 100 karma to get an attribute from 1 to 6, if you have higher base attributes, you have a higher top-end cost. To boot, skills cost a lot to push into the higher reaches; a Grade 12 initiate with a Magic of 18 is a huge karma sink, but if you don't gain in your skills as well, you're halfway to throwing it away.
I wasn't the one who said benevolent Shedim originally just that his being possessed opens up all sorts of reliigious holes and what about Lazarus since we're naming names?
Speaking personally I'm less interested in having a 12 top level role than I am in being a whole range of midrange ones i.e. 4-7 computer skills, magic skills, face skills and combat skills. A character who can do multiple different things if they need to than being a target as the BEST of the BEST.
-
I want to point out that the "evil" Shedim are the ones w know about. They are the ones that disrupt society and thus get caught. If there are "good" Shedim, wouldn't they pretty much go unnoticed through society?
-
I want to point out that the "evil" Shedim are the ones w know about. They are the ones that disrupt society and thus get caught. If there are "good" Shedim, wouldn't they pretty much go unnoticed through society?
Which would be sort of alternative take on Peter Hamilton's Night's Dawn Trilogy, though in that situation it was supposedly spirits of previously departed persons.
Which could be an interesting twist if it turned out some of the entities we are calling shedim turned out to be actual spirits of someone's ancestors, but SR wisely steered clear of that particular can o'worms, though it could be done on a homeruled campaign.
-
No, we know all Shedim are evil. If it isn't an inimical to life, consumed by hatred for all things living spirit, it wouldn't be a Shedim at that point. It is sort of their definition. Let's no derail this conversation with the morality of Shedim, though.
As far as 'Christian' Shamans go, I could easily see some Totems being converted to Saints or Angels, for lack of a better term. I even made a aspected magician with the homebrew Guardian Angel Mentor Spirit.
-
I got into a bad argument about this before, but it was also under 3E rules (the SR3 core says that totems are spirits that imbue shamans with power), over the idea of a Christian shaman. I think it's impossible to reconcile because God and/or the Totem would both demand absolute allegiance to themselves over other gods (that is, each other). Others disagreed.
The way I see it, there may be Mentors supporting Occult Studies students at Georgetown, but there are not Catholic shamans who worship their Totems because that's a bridge too far.
Under the 3e rules for magic (where Mages and Shamans were effectively opposite sides of the magic coin) I would agree with you.
Under 3e, shamans followed a totem, not a tradition. When shamans (in 3e) casts a spell, a spirit mask of his totem would become super-imposed on his face/body/aura.
But 4e did away with totems and introduced mentors. Mentors that could be taken by anyone; mage or shaman alike. And that has continued into 5e.
Sides not like other things from magic have been cut as well.... <cough> grounding <cough>.
-
Mentors can take all kinds of forms, from objects of worship, to personifications of abstract concepts, to even straightforwardly what their name says (mentors).
-
I wasn't the one who said benevolent Shedim originally just that his being possessed opens up all sorts of reliigious holes and what about Lazarus since we're naming names?
You were, in fact, the one who first said 'benevolent shedim'. Do a word search - it's post #37. His return from the dead DID come with a lot of baggage - did he really come back from the dead, was he ever dead in the first place, etc. And sorry - can't bring legend into it.
As for the 'lots of skills at 4-7' - you can get that pretty early on. At the level at which a 4000+ karma character is working, though, you need to have a lot of knowledge skills, as well as a few key top-end skills - able to handle anything like a pro, and able to do one thing like a boss, as it were.
-
I got into a bad argument about this before, but it was also under 3E rules (the SR3 core says that totems are spirits that imbue shamans with power), over the idea of a Christian shaman. I think it's impossible to reconcile because God and/or the Totem would both demand absolute allegiance to themselves over other gods (that is, each other). Others disagreed.
The way I see it, there may be Mentors supporting Occult Studies students at Georgetown, but there are not Catholic shamans who worship their Totems because that's a bridge too far.
Under the 3e rules for magic (where Mages and Shamans were effectively opposite sides of the magic coin) I would agree with you.
Under 3e, shamans followed a totem, not a tradition. When shamans (in 3e) casts a spell, a spirit mask of his totem would become super-imposed on his face/body/aura.
But 4e did away with totems and introduced mentors. Mentors that could be taken by anyone; mage or shaman alike. And that has continued into 5e.
Sides not like other things from magic have been cut as well.... <cough> grounding <cough>.
Thanks. I should've articulated that more clearly.