Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: kyoto kid on <12-24-15/2307:57>
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...so if a character already has natural low light vision, are they one step better against darkness modifiers if they also have the Tetrachromatic Vision Gene mod or does his/her low light vision cancel that out?
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They're essentially the same thing, although Tetrachrome is worse...
Core pg 175, Environmental Compensation chart
Low-Light Vision = Treat Partial Light (-1) and Dim Light (-3) as Full Light (-0)
Chrome Flesh pg 162, Tetrachromancy
Tetrachromancy lets you treat Partial Light (-1) conditions as Full Light (-0) and grants +3 dice pool modifier to visual Perception tests.
So it's kind of a toss-up. Low-Light lets you see better in Partial or Dim, while Tetra only works in Partial. But Tetra also gives you +3 to Perception, which Low-Light does not.
Be aware, Genetech does look to be in the same boat as Cybertech. Where the Core book warns people with inherent abilities from getting replacements that may end up taking those abilities away... such as natural born Low-Light and then getting Cyber-Eyes that do not. In this case, Chrome Flesh pg 155 talks about Man vs Nature, and how Genetech is altering your body in somewhat radical ways. Since it takes 2 weeks of treatment to apply and hits you for 0.1 Essence, I would say that getting Tetra done will end up replacing your Low-Light. Your eyes used to have certain rods and cones that let you see in a certain way. But now the gene therapy has made them grow into something totally different.
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I'd disagree with Marcus on whether it replaces natural enhancements, though it's really going to be up to each GM. Tetrachromacy stacks with Hawkeye by strict RAW, though.
Thermographic Vision: Visibility and Light conditions shift one row up
This combined with Tetrachromacy, on the other hand, would be slightly better than LLV.
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I tend to disagree with Marcus too
What You see is what you get is a default line in SR5 (ImO)
Only when CGL explicetily writes that one Item replaces some other (like here that Tetrachromatic Vision would replace LLV) than you loose the later. Only then ! (ImO)
with a Lost Dance
Medicineman
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...so basically it would not improve one's vision beyond hiss/her natural LLV, though it would still grant the Bonus to perception.
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Like Novocrane said, it's going to depend on the GM at the table. Or once we get errata (there's always errata).
If you have Low-Light and Thermo on your Eyeware, you can't run both at the same time. You have to pick one or the other and go with it.
This is getting multiple forms of vision implanted... no, not even implanted. This is genetically altering your eye so that it naturally perceives light in some form or fashion. So it's not something you really get to switch off like an implant would.
If the GM lets you stack Low-Light with Tetra, then the only benefit is +3 Perception. Both already give you help in Partial Light, and Low-Light gives you help in Dim Light as well. Neither one says "move up 1 category" like Novocrane pointed out Thermo does. So there's no reason (in my mind at least) to think that adding some light sensitivity to some more light sensitivity is going to let you see in the complete absence of light. Since it goes Partial, Dim, Total Darkness. There's no light, which is why you can't see.
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If you have Low-Light and Thermo on your Eyeware, you can't run both at the same time. You have to pick one or the other and go with it.
Was this actually said somewhere in a book?
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I'm not sure how you would run both lo-light and thermo at the same time...I mean how could that be possible (they would block each other out)?
We play you have to use a free action to shift back and forth.
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I'm not sure how you would run both lo-light and thermo at the same time...I mean how could that be possible (they would block each other out)?
We play you have to use a free action to shift back and forth.
Run separate sensor feeds in a separate AR (or projected) windows. Enough justification for a perception check anyway. Multiple sensors incur the distracted penalty for AR at GMs discretion.
So, seeing through low light, but a small Thermo window in your peripheral vision that'll show heat signatures.
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We're having this exact same convo in another thread (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=22886.0)
The point is, from both a fluff perspective, and from a game mechanic perspective, it's best if they don't stack.
Low-Light is amplifying ambient light. Which is why it says it brings Dim (-3) or Partial (-1) all the way up to Full (-0). However, it would be useless in Total Darkness (-6) b/c there is zero light to amplify.
Thermo is imaging based off near infrared, and even works in Total Darkness, but it only moves you up 1 category.
If you allow them to stack, players are going to toss both into their Eyeware. Then when you hit them with Total Darkness situations, they'll say the Thermo moves it up from Total Darkness to Dim Light, and then Low-Light takes over and moves it the rest of the way to Full Light. Suddenly the room has gone from zero light whatsoever, to looking like daytime. Even though there isn't actually any light for Low-Light to amplify, from a purely game mechanics perspective it fits. Move up 1 category, at which point you qualify to move the rest of the way up the chart for free.
As for shifting... technically it would be a Change Device Mode action. Which is a Free Action if you're using DNI and wireless, or a Simple Action if you are not.
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Although RAW do not say they cannot combine, the wording for Low Light is distinct from Thermographic.
Thermographic makes mention of shifting up a category; Low Light says something like 'treat Dim and Partial as Full.' Nitpicky, but the difference in wording lends support to not stacking the two (as technically, Full Darkness shifted up one is still not a Partial Light condition).
Also, Tetrachromatic says it adds a fourth cone, so I don't see why you'd lose Low Light (or any other natural) vision. You're not replacing the eyes, just adding a set of cones.
This is why I love this game; plenty of room in the rules for interpretation multiple ways. :)
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Although RAW do not say they cannot combine, the wording for Low Light is distinct from Thermographic.
Thermographic makes mention of shifting up a category; Low Light says something like 'treat Dim and Partial as Full.' Nitpicky, but the difference in wording lends support to not stacking the two (as technically, Full Darkness shifted up one is still not a Partial Light condition).
Also, Tetrachromatic says it adds a fourth cone, so I don't see why you'd lose Low Light (or any other natural) vision. You're not replacing the eyes, just adding a set of cones.
This is why I love this game; plenty of room in the rules for interpretation multiple ways. :)
It's referring to the Environmental Modifiers chart on Core pg 175.
Light / Glare
Full Light (-0)
Partial Light (-1)
Dim Light (-3)
Total Darkness (-6)
If you plunge the character into a room of Total Darkness, and they click on their Thermo, it will move them up the chart 1 category, into Dim Light.
Then they click on their Low-Light, which says that it automatically moves Dim or Partial all the way up to Full.
Which means, despite the setting for the scene not having any light whatsoever, the game mechanics of it say that stacking the two leads to 0 penalties.
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How does enhancing ambient light have any effect on thermographic vision, or vice versa?
At my table, no stacking allowed. I feel relatively confident that that is what the rules intend. YMMV, so ask your GM because the books won't tell you one way or another.
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How does enhancing ambient light have any effect on thermographic vision, or vice versa?
At my table, no stacking allowed. I feel relatively confident that that is what the rules intend. YMMV, so ask your GM because the books won't tell you one way or another.
I could be wrong but I think Marcus point is that if you allow stacking then there is no point to lighting penalties, ergo, they should not stack.
At least that's how I read what he wrote.
Of course, I'm no expert at what people intended when they say/write something. If I was, I might still be married. :P
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I just wish people would clarify whether they're responding to the overall question, or the last post before them. That way I know whether they're trying to contribute to the convo, or argue with me (for instance).
For my input... the question of whether Thermo and Low-Light should stack, comes down to whether you look at it from a cinematic storyline perspective, or from a purely game mechanic RAW perspective.
Storywise, Thermo doesn't use ambient light. Which is why it still functions in Total Darkness. But it only moves you up the chart 1 category, which means you'd still have a -3 to everything unless you have a Thermo flashlight handy. Low-Light would not function at all in those conditions b/c there is no ambient light whatsoever for it to amplify. Which means it's effects would not stack.
Game mechanics wise, Thermo's RAW effect raises the penalty 1 category, which brings it to Dim Light category. From there, Low-Light's RAW effect raises Dim or Partial all the way up to Full, which means no penalties. So from a purely game mechanics perspective, ignoring the scene or any of the roleplay aspects and just staring at a character sheet and dice... if you allow them to stack then you make the Total Darkness scene irrelevant. The two effects cancel out the initial -6 penalty, and your characters are free to act unhindered.
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That's your interpretation of RAW, Marcus. Nowhere on the rules does it say that stacking is possible, so taking two separate effects and joining them is an interpretation, not RAW.
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That's been my point all along. Nowhere does it say they can stack, although nowhere does it say they can't either.
If the GM opts to let them stack, they are guaranteeing that their players will never need to worry about Light penalties.
Which is why I think it's far more fitting with the cinematic flair of the game, to make sure they don't stack.
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...as I recall, Tetrachromatic vision is a Genemod don't see how it would stack with cybereyes.
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You can get vision mods from a number of sources. Cyber Eyes, glasses / goggles / contact lenses, natural abilities.
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How does enhancing ambient light have any effect on thermographic vision, or vice versa?
At my table, no stacking allowed. I feel relatively confident that that is what the rules intend. YMMV, so ask your GM because the books won't tell you one way or another.
We usually rule no stacking either but its two different feeds super imposed into one so even if its total darkness you can use thermals but night vision isnt going to do anything because night vision (even from a technical stand point irl) needs a light source to create the night vision effect (thermalgraphic doesnt create light out of nothing, thats what a flashlight is for)
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That's your interpretation of RAW, Marcus. Nowhere on the rules does it say that stacking is possible, so taking two separate effects and joining them is an interpretation, not RAW.
This is a system where effects generally stack unless explicitly called out as not stacking.
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That's a fair point, Whiskeyjack. I can't find anything that specifically calls out stacking vision enhancements either way.
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That's your interpretation of RAW, Marcus. Nowhere on the rules does it say that stacking is possible, so taking two separate effects and joining them is an interpretation, not RAW.
This is a system where effects generally stack unless explicitly called out as not stacking.
Which is why I have been explaining my reasoning for prohibiting stacking in that kind of instance.
The only time when both Thermo and Low-Light will both come into play, is a scene in Total Darkness. Low-Light by itself says it automatically brings Dim or Partial all the way up to Full, so the only time it's useless is Total Darkness.
Going purely by game mechanics RAW, ignoring the cinematic description, Thermo brings it up 1 category from Total Darkness to Dim Light. At which point Low-Light takes over and improves it completely to Full. Thus negating the Light penalties entirely.
Cinematically however, a room in Total Darkness has absolutely zero ambient light, and switching to Thermo vision isn't going to create any light (aside from the display screen if you're using Goggles or something). So there still isn't any light for your Low-Light to amplify. Which means there is no cinematic justification for applying Low-Light.
So if you go by "allow stacking unless told otherwise" then adding Thermo + Low-Light = no Light penalties ever.
If you apply a teeny bit of logic and reason, then there's no way they would stack.
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To be fair, if the character wants to get around that particular scenario, Marcus, all they need is a low-light flashlight and low-light vision, and they'll have no penalties. I agree 100% with not letting thermo and low-light vision stack because of the difference in technology, but ultimately it doesn't really matter as there are other, completely legal beyond any shadow of a doubt, ways of achieving the same effect.
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As Marcus Gideon pointed out, this same discussion took place at the same time on another thread! Very odd. If you do a search, there are a couple of older threads about the vision enhancements stacking, too. I agree that they should not stack, however, I think they should both be allowed to be on at the same time. It actually exists today in that form, and I imagine it would have only become better.
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...getting back to the original question, yeah the +3 bonus to visual Perception from the Tetrachromatic Vision genemod is still worth it for my character as neither BGC, noise, nor hacking, can interfere with it.
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To be fair, if the character wants to get around that particular scenario, Marcus, all they need is a low-light flashlight and low-light vision, and they'll have no penalties. I agree 100% with not letting thermo and low-light vision stack because of the difference in technology, but ultimately it doesn't really matter as there are other, completely legal beyond any shadow of a doubt, ways of achieving the same effect.
Except if your opponent has low light vision as well then you stick out like someone wearing a miners hat
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I'll necro this post for a related question:
Does Tetrachromatic Vision basically counteract the Night Blindness Quality?
Is it too cheap to pair therm?
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As a GM I would ask the Player to pay off the Night Blindness quality if they take Tetrachromatic Vision. Just like if they implanted Low Light vision, you've removed the Negative quality so you pay the Karma to remove it and carry on.
"...too cheap to pair them?" By Cheap if you mean deliberately taking a Negative Quality that is then ignored by adding a piece of gear, then yes. I would not allow it as a GM.
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That's what I thought too.
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agree with Hobbes
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Going back to the 'stacking' thing, I tend to go by the 'different systems, similar effect' theory. You can run Thermo and Low-Light at the same time; they don't stack, though they do overlap
Thermographic moves your vision penalties up one column, right? Okay, good. Low-light moves Dim or Partial up to Full. That's fine too. But Low Light is not going to move thermographic's "Total Darkness to Dim" up to Full; that's stacking. Overlap means that you take the better, and only the better - Dim to Full with Low LIght (instead of Dim to Partial with Thermographic), and Total Darkness to Dim with Thermo, because Low-Light doesn't work with Total Darkness.
Take the best, not take one, then take the other.