Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Senko on <12-28-15/1015:08>
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Ok I've been trying to redesign a mage (given up on mage face at char gen I can't make one I'd be happy to play) for myself and here's what I have. Could this survive as a runner or do I need to go back to the drawing board?
PRIORITIES
B: Magic, Attributes, Skills.
D: Resources.
E: Human.
ATTRIBUTES
Body: 3
Agility: 3
Reaction: 3
Strength: 2
Willpower: 5
Logic: 3
Intuition: 3
Charisma: 6
Edge: 2
Magic: 5
QUALITIES
Positive
Focused Concentration: 3.
Mentor Spirit: Dragon Slayer.
Hawk eye.
Negative
Astral Beacon
Allergy: 10, common (Seafood)
Day Job: 10 hours.
SKILLS
Active
Group - Athletics: 3.
Group - Influence: 2.
Arcana: 1.
Assensing: 6.
Computer: 3.
Con: 1, specialized in fast talking.
Counterspelling: 6, specialized in combat spells.
Perception: 3, specialized in visual.
Pilot Ground Craft: 3.
Pistols: 3, specialized in semi-automatics.
Ritual Spellcasting: 3
Spellcasting: 6, specialized in illusion spells.
Summoning: 6.
Knowledge
Black Market: 1
Gray Market: 1
Magical Law: 1
Magical Theory: 4
Magical Threats: 2
Metaplanes: 2
Seattle: 3
English: Native
Japanese: 1
MAGIC
Tradition: Shinto
Mentor Spirit: Dragonslayer (Etiquette chosen for +2 dice).
Spells
1) Ball Lightning.
2) Chaotic World.
3) Heal.
4) Improved Invisibility.
5) Increase Reflexes.
6) Levitate.
7) Magic Fingers.
8) Physical Mask.
9) Stunbolt.
10) Trid Phantasm.
I know I have no rituals yet but that's because of the shortage of things I can choose than interest there's several I intend to buy as soon as the karma becomes available.
GEAR
Weapons
Savalette Guardian: Gas Vent 3, Personalized Grip, Smartgun system, Improved Range Finder, 5 spare clips. 60 APDS and Gel Rounds, 120 regular and stick and shock rounds.
Streetline Special: 30 regular ammo, 1 spare clip.
Defiance EX Shocker: Laser Sight, Personalized Grip.
Survival Knife.
Armour
Actioneer Business Clothes.
Armor Vest.
Bike Racing Armor: AR Gloves, Chemical Protection (3), Fire Resistance (2), Insulation (2).
Bike Racing Helmet: Image Link, Micro-Tranceiver, Smartlink, Trodes.
Gas Mask.
Lined Coat: Chemical Protection (2).
Respirator: Rating 4.
Comlinks
Nixdorf Sekretar: Sim Module, Program Carrier (Encryption), Receiver Dongle, Mapsoft (Seattle).
Sony Emperor: Sim Module.
General
AR Gloves.
Backpack (General carrying).
Camera: Electronic Vision Magnification.
Certified Credstick: Gold.
Certified Credstick: Silver with 1k on it for emergencies (In bug out bag).
Contacts: Flare Compensation, Image Link, Low Light Vision.
Datachips: 10.
Dufflebag (Bug out bag).
Earbuds: Soundlink, Select Sound Filter.
Flashlight: Normal.
Flashlight: Lowlight.
Glasses: Imagelink.
Headphones: Soundlink.
Longhaul: 2 doses (in bug out bag).
Magical Lodge: Rating 6 (Shinto Shrine).
Medikit: Rating 3.
Metal Restraints.
50 regular reagents.
Security Tags: 10.
Rope (50m in bug out bag).
Subvoval Microphone.
Survival Kit (In bug out bag).
Tag Eraser.
Trodes.
Vehicles
Yamaha Growler.
Identities
Bug Out: R1 Sin, R1 Magic Licence.
Normal Use: R4 SIN, R4 Magic LIcence, R4 Combat Magic Licence, R4 Firearms Licence, 1 month lifestyle.
Running Sin: R3 SIN, R3 Magic Licence, R3 Combat Magic Licence, R3 Firearms Licence.
Contacts
Fixer: 5 connection, 3 Loyalty.
Parazoologist: 3 connection, 2 Loyalty.
Talismonger: 3 connection, 2 Loyalty.
Thoughts?
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Looks pretty solid. If you can find some spare cash you might want to buy a fetish for your Ball Lightning. F-3 drain is great.
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Honestly its the SINs. To get a R4 SIN + magic/combat/firearms it burns so much cash I was forced to upgrade the priority of it, a lot of this gear was then picked to fill in the cost. The question is less can I rumage up the cash (unless we're talking a power focus) and can I rumage up the karma. I'll have a look at that.
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edit: still having Magic skill without means to use it is a waste of skill points that should go into perception, but it depends on your GM because mine treats 6 perc+ 2visual spec as core to all runners. Typical goon in my game has at least 10-14 dice in sneaking so without at least 12 dice we are screwed, and im not talking about Tir ghosts etc.
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Consider dropping skills to c and magic up to a. You will loose 4 skill points / 3 skill groups gain 1 magic 1 edge and 3 spells.
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Character seems real enough and fun to play. I'm impressed with your investment in SINs, that really does take up a lot of cash at character generation! Would you be willing to part with one of the spares? Same with the armors. Perhaps you won't need such a full wardrobe at character generation, and you can use some of that cash for things that benefit you out of the gate?
As JmoZ01 said, switching some priorities might be advantageous. Do you really need skill groups in athletics, and skills in driving and computer, etc? If not going to 'ware up, having a magic 6 rating and more edge and more spells or rituals might be more useful, especially if you are the primary magic user in the party. (more powerful/diverse spells, more powerful/more services spirits, etc.).
Also, maybe go with an Intuition based tradition and flip your charisma and intuition? As you are not playing a face and don't have skills in binding, a high charisma isn't essential. Having a high intuition will help with initiative, defense, and assensing/perception (perhaps allowing you to reconfigure your skill points in these areas too).
If you want to stay with a high charisma, I would recommend investing in binding. Being able call on lots of spirits when needed is one of the most powerful and useful game actions.
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I think that that lower edge score is worth getting THAT much more money. And with the lodge and Ritual Spellcasting? Yeah, that's good. A thing to consider: to get a group commercical lifestyle. Your Etiquette is good and nothing says that teamwork rules can't help in rolling more hits to get a discount. You can build a shrine in a Private Room and your inventory is beneficial to having a (semi)legal front with a little backup plan.
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Edge > cash.
If you can cover your bases with the resources you have, remember that cash comes in easy-to-spend chunks to get most things you want. If something costs < 10k and you can do without it for your first 'run and you would need to lose something to go with it? Do without it.
Opinions vary, but character growth is one of the cool things about Shadowrun. You start with less and then build up.
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Also I don't think the Athletics skill group does much for you .
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Edge > cash.
Generally, yes. But we really should see the whole picture there.
Also I don't think the Athletics skill group does much for you .
I guess you're right. Levitate can do most of the athletic stuff.
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Consider dropping skills to c and magic up to a. You will loose 4 skill points / 3 skill groups gain 1 magic 1 edge and 3 spells.
Seconded. Magic A, Skills C looks like you come out ahead overall.
Overall solid, just minor suggestions:
I've never been a huge fan of multiple SINs on low resource characters. Just giving up too much to get something that won't come up. If you need them for Story reasons, why wouldn't Rating 1 work?
Skills, Computer 3 isn't going to do you much, get a Commlink with an Agent and have about the same dice pool. Pilot Ground Craft of 1 will likely be enough, you shouldn't be doing any stunt driving. Dice Pool of 4 is enough for commuting. Ritual 3 with no Rituals, if you're going to delay gratification, why not shuffle those 3 points into maxing out another skill and buying a couple points with Karma? Raising a skill from 1 to 3 compared to raising a skill from 3 to 6. (Presuming you didn't buy the 3 skill with Karma, if you did, then good job!)
And Focused Concentration 4 is a nice break point for Increased Reflexes, if you can get it. FC 4, Mentor and Hawk Eye = 24 IIRC? Just need to free up the Karma.
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@Mestoph
I think if I were in that game I'd be asking the GM to give me extra skill points to get perception that high or let me use assensing in its place. If he's going to treat the generic minion as that good at sneaking he should be helping characters who aren't insanely observant get that. I'm a starting mage not a street sam or a private investigator.
@JM0z01
I had magic A originally dropped it to be for the extra point in resources, I agree I would prefer it though (well actually I'd prefer a life modules mage).
@FstGamestar
Good suggestion dropping that free's up over 2,000 yen and most of the gear lets me get magic back up to A and resources to E while still keeping a rating 4 SIN and magic or firearms licence. Of course I don't have much protection but I can buy that later.
I don't need them technically but I hate the max skill A for your profession and be incompetent elsewhere (I just can't accept the "You can default" argument). Sure they're not 6's but a 3/4 is competent for daily life in my opinion and if I drop all the skills I feel you should have to live instead of a character I wind up with just a bunch of statistics I couldn't care less about. I know mechanically it makes more sense to by skill A at 6 then purchase skill B later but when I make I character like that all I can think when I look at them is how did you survive this long you haven't a clue about driving or how to use a computer in an era when you have one on your wrist that is vital to day to day life. Its the difference between sadly retiring a dead character and just shrugging, tearing up the sheet and tossing it in the nearest bin for me. I've pushed it as far as I could to get 6 + spec in the mage specialities already.
Its the same with intuition it may make more sense mechanically but none of the intuition traditions appeal to me like Shinto or Hermetic. Honestly I'd actually prefer a lower charisma and higher logic but on the flip side Shinto appeals to me and I like their spirits better. Still I'll take another browse through the traditions see if there is an intuition one I missed.
Binding I considerd but I just didn't have the skills to fit it in after getting what I needed (spellcasting, counterspelling, summoning) and what I want (computer, driving) to make a living character. I did consider trading ritual across for that but since I prefer ritual spellcasting more and figured people would say binding 2 + spec wasn't worth it I went with the one I preferred.
@ZeldaBravo
Hadn't thought of that may be worth a try thanks.
@Falar
Hmmm worth considering.
@BDyer
Probably not since I'm a mage rather than a street sam. Still I live in an area where not knowing how to swim is equated with high risk and I'm always a fan of "only have to run faster than you not the lion". Still it was a toss up whether to have this at 1, 2 or 3 since the extra points go into social interactions.
@Hobbes
Computer 3 is less about the dice pool and more about the fact I personally can not see any competent adult in the shadowrun world who's not street scum (insulting term but all I can think of to describe the uneducated, SINless masses who may not know how to read, write or use a comlink) having any less than a 2 rating in this. I know all the arguments but I've just dealt with too many people in our world who haven't a clue about computers to emotionally accpet it. I see a no computer use and I don't think "use an agent or default", I think "You should be asking how to take that phonecall or send a text". I work currently with someone who when we're on site gets signed in by the boss because he can't figure out how to use the phone app to enter his name, password and hit log on, punch in and he's not the only one I know like that. If I had computers too low I'd be unable to play the character as being able to function in the sixth world I just couldn't do it. I know there's the quality to go from zero to not applicable but to me all that does is take it from once you've typed out your document you get someone else to do all the editing and saving to "what is this strange rock you call a comlink." Different views for different folks but for me a shadowrun character with less than 2 computer use drives me up the wall. Mechanically sound or not I just can't look at a new character who's meant to be an established runner without certain basic skills and accept that as a valid concept unless they grow up as a hothouse flower and only ever came out to shoot things in which case you better play them like that, all amazed and confused by the big, wide world.
I have dropped a SIN.
Yes freeing up the karma will be tight especially if I modify priority.
@GENERAL
I've tried removing some stuff for a lower resources priority to move magic back up. If I make the following changes how does this look (bearing in mind I make more changes after I take a closer look at your suggestions)? Changes are shown in bolded Italics, removed items are well removed :D.
PRIORITIES
A: Magic
B: Attributes, Skills.
E: Human, Resources.
ATTRIBUTES
Body: 3
Agility: 3
Reaction: 3
Strength: 2
Willpower: 5
Logic: 3
Intuition: 3
Charisma: 6
Edge: 3
Magic: 6
QUALITIES
Positive
Focused Concentration: 4.
Mentor Spirit: Dragon Slayer.
Hawk eye.
Negative
Astral Beacon
Allergy: 10, mild, common (Seafood)
Day Job: 10 hours a week.
SKILLS
Active
Group - Athletics: 3.
Group - Influence: 2.
Arcana: 1.
Assensing: 6.
Computer: 3.
Con: 2, specialized in fast talking.
Counterspelling: 6, specialized in combat spells.
Perception: 3, specialized in visual.
Pilot Ground Craft: 3.
Pistols: 3, specialized in semi-automatics.
Ritual Spellcasting: 3
Spellcasting: 6, specialized in illusion spells.
Summoning: 6.
Knowledge
Black Market: 1
Gray Market: 1
Magical Law: 1
Magical Theory: 4
Magical Threats: 2
Metaplanes: 2
Seattle: 3
English: Native
Japanese: 1
MAGIC
Tradition: Shinto
Mentor Spirit: Dragonslayer (Etiquette chosen for +2 dice).
Spells
1) Ball Lightning.
2) Chaotic World.
3) Heal.
4) Improved Invisibility.
5) Increase Reflexes.
6) Levitate.
7) Magic Fingers.
8) Physical Mask.
9) Stunbolt.
10) Trid Phantasm.
RITUALS
1) Ward.
2) Watcher.
GEAR
Weapons
Savalette Guardian: Gas Vent 2, Personalized Grip, Smartgun system, 3 spare clips. 60 regular bullets, 48 stick and shock rounds.
Armour
Armored Clothing
Ballistic Mask: Imagelink, Smartlink, Trodes.
Respirator: Rating 4.
Comlinks
Sony Emperor: Sim Module, mapsoft (Seattle).
General
AR Gloves.
Backpack (General carrying).
Certified Credstick: Gold.
Contacts: Flare Compensation, Image Link, Low Light Vision.
Earbuds: Soundlink, Select Sound Filter.
Magical Lodge: Rating 6 (Shinto Shrine).
50 regular reagents.
Trodes.
Identities
R4 SIN, R4 Magic LIcence, R3 Combat Magic Licence, R3 Firearms Licence, 1 month low lifestyle.
Contacts
Fixer: 5 connection, 2 Loyalty.
Parazoologist: 3 connection, 2 Loyalty.
Talismonger: 3 connection, 3 Loyalty.
EDIT
Hmmm maybe druidic as a tradition although I think I'll still prefer Shinto. I'll need to look more into it.
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Athletics 3 isn't doing you much, especially with Levitate. Shuffled into Influence gets you pretty good dice pools in that group, especially if you pick up increased charisma down the road. Or use the 3 group points to cover one of your lower ranked skills to free up the skill points. Minor tweaks for the long run.
Quick speech on "Everyman skills" and then I'm off my soap box. From a meta standpoint Shadowrun has a fairly steep skill tax already. Stealth, Perception, Damage dealing skill of somekind, are all opposed tests that most runners will test on about every run. You've essentially got an 18 point skill tax built in, adding to that is brutal at chargen. For example your Computer skill of dice pool 6, while likely would never come up on a run, is actually enough dice to give you a little better than 50/50 chance of hacking a low rating commlink carried by an average person. I don't think being able to hack a commlink is "typical" level of skill that everyone would have. Your RL co-worker would be an example of the uneducated or incompetence negative quality, not skill 0. Ditto driving, in a world where cars drive themselves a dice pool of 4 is more than enough to get you from point A to point B. Obviously YMMV.
Again, relatively minor tweaks mostly suggested for the long run because of the exponential cost of skills and the low likely hood of a Mage having significant free Karma to throw at skills. I tend to view a mage's skill list as all but set in stone at chargen. Couple 1 or 2 skills picked up after a run or two, but after that their are just so many other places to spend Karma.
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For a non-Decker, Computers would be fine with only rating 1, as that's plenty to know the basics (though a skill 0 would be like the typical internet surfer today). For driving, just pick up rating 1 in the skill with a specialty in Wheeled, that would save you a skill point and give you the same amount for any wheeled ground vehicle. Putting Assensing down to about the level of where your Perception is probably wouldn't hurt too bad either.
Considering your physical attributes and Charisma, swapping Athletics out with Acting and putting those points you have in Con into Gymnastics would probably work too.
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Looking at p131 of the core, Rating 0 means untrained, the default level of knowledge obtained through interaction with society and the Matrix. This would be most people in the shadowrun universe for things like Computer and Driving. Most people don't have driver's licences as cars drive themselves. Computers/Matrix are designed for accessibility and easy use (so that you can click on more ads and buy more things). 0 Rating still has an awareness of the skill and can still take actions that use the skill. Rating 4 is proficient, and noted as corporate/professional for most jobs. So scaling between 0-4, a rating three is much closer to being a professional at the skill than just basically functional. When you get to 5-7, you get to a level of open market level skills, meaning that people will pay extra for your particular skills or seek you out- this is how shadowrunners make a living and make them a cut above other sinless. If you are not skillful at this level for your primary foci, why would a johnson higher you? 8+ becomes extraction worthy and super talented, with being so skillful you are more likely a target of a run than conducting it. Of course shadowrun is a game of dicepools so you can't see skills by themselves, but I don't believe the system is intended to consider a character incompetent on defaultable skills if they have a skill rating of 0. Skills that require skill points to even attempt are noted, and those are the ones that everymen can't just do without some training. Everything else though, at least an awareness of basic tasks/functionality is assumed. As Hobbes said, Uneducated/Incompetent are negative qualities, not baselines.
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Try this one out:
Unnamed Hero
Meta-type: Human
Body 3
Agility 3
Reaction 3
Strength 2
Willpower 5
Logic 3
Intuition 5
Charisma 5
Edge 3
Magic 6
Essence 6.0
Condition Monitor (P/S): 10 / 11
Armor: 9
Limits: Physical 4, Mental 6, Social 7
Physical Initiative: 8+1D6
Astral Initiative: 10+3D6
Active Skills:
Arcana 1
Assensing 2
Binding 6
Computer 1
Con 1
Counterspelling 4
Gymnastics 1
Influence Group 2
Perception 3
Pilot Ground Craft (Wheeled +2) 1
Pistols (Tasers +2) 3
Sneaking 1
Spellcasting 6
Summoning 6
Knowledge Skills:
Black Market 1
Law (Magical +2) 2
Magical Theory 3
Magical Threats 3
Seattle Sprawl 1
Languages:
English 5
Japanese N
Qualities:
Allergy, Common (Moderate): Antibiotics
Distinctive Style: Shinto Priest Robes
Focused Concentration (5)
Shinto Magician
SINner (National SIN): Imperial Japan
Spells:
Ball Lightning
Chaotic World
Heal
Improved Invisibility
Increase Reflexes
Levitate
Magic Fingers
Physical Mask
Stealth
Stunbolt
Gear:
AR Gloves
Contacts (3) w/ Flare Compensation, Image Link, Low Light Vision
Ear buds (3) w/ Audio Enhancement (3)
Glasses (3) w/ Vision Enhancement (3)
Identity: Specify Name w/ Fake License: Awakened (4), Fake License: Offensive Magic (4), Fake SIN (4), (2 months) Low Lifestyle
Magical Lodge Materials: Shinto Shrine (6)
Reagents, refined (dram): Shinto x50
Renraku Sensei w/ Mapsoft: Seattle Sprawl
Shinto Priest Robes
Sustaining Focus: Health Spells (4)
Weapons:
Yamaha Pulsar [Taser, Acc 6, DV 7S(e), AP -5, SA, 4 (m)] w/ Personalized Grip, (20x) Taser Dart
Contacts:
Fixer (Connection 4, Loyalty 3)
Parazoologist (Connection 1, Loyalty 3)
Talismonger (Connection 3, Loyalty 3)
Starting ¥: 545 + (4D6 × 100)¥
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Shadowrun © 2005-2015 The Topps Company, Inc. All rights reserved. Shadowrun is a registered trademark of The Topps Company, Inc.
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I'll take a look over it, I assume this is for a specific game as they have Japanese native and english 5 rather than a modfication of mine? I notice you have drain stats as 5/5 rather 5/6 with int at 4.
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I'll take a look over it, I assume this is for a specific game as they have Japanese native and english 5 rather than a modfication of mine? I notice you have drain stats as 5/5 rather 5/6 with int at 4.
I put the languages as they were to reflect the SIN I gave it (Imperial Japan).
I put 5 and 5 instead of 5 and 6 because 1 die won't make much difference in drain resist whereas the higher Intuition will improve Perception, Assensing, defense and Knowledge Skill points.
Sneaking is a bit low, but Stealth and Improved Invisibility should serve well enough until some karma can get put in the skill.
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Am I missing something here when I try to work this out I can't get it come out right. In priority it has 2 karma left over, not much but there are things you could buy with that an extra 2 knowledge skills, speed reading, some more gear, a medium lifestyle and this is after I buy a magic licence since that's normally seperate from a combat magic one.
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Am I missing something here when I try to work this out I can't get it come out right. In priority it has 2 karma left over, not much but there are things you could buy with that an extra 2 knowledge skills, speed reading, some more gear, a medium lifestyle and this is after I buy a magic licence since that's normally seperate from a combat magic one.
I built it with HeroLab, and it shows everything being dead even. As to license, if you'll notice the one that says 'Awakened', that covers what you should be seeing as the 'magic license'. Unfortunately, it doesn't show on the text-only output, but the real SIN has 2 months of Middle lifestyle
Link to PDF Sheet (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8XkQp9M7IKbNTdOeWtpek5xOFE/view?usp=sharing)
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Ah that'd be it I didn't have any lifestyle there just the low one on the fake SIN.
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Oh, while it is lacking rituals and the skill to use them, that shouldn't be that big a deal since rituals aren't all that useful considering how much time they take to perform.
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Oh, while it is lacking rituals and the skill to use them, that shouldn't be that big a deal since rituals aren't all that useful considering how much time they take to perform.
*drives by and shouts, "Ritual Magic isn't as bad as Alchemy" out the window*
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Consider dropping skills to c and magic up to a. You will loose 4 skill points / 3 skill groups gain 1 magic 1 edge and 3 spells.
Seconded. Magic A, Skills C looks like you come out ahead overall.
3rd'ed
How important is eventually being a Face?
How about the following for raw focus on magic-ing.
4 = Magic + Attributes
1 = Skills + Cash
0 = Human
32 Attributes Points = B3, A4, R5, S1, W5, L3, I5, C6
32 Skill Points = Sorcery-6+Spec, Summoning-6, Binding-6, Counterspelling-6, Perception-6+Spec
20 Karma = Mentor Spirit-5, SpiritWhisperer-8?, JoaT-2, Trustfund-5
5 Karma + Negatives = Contacts, Contacts, Contacts, Skills, Cash (in that order)
Your Rich-(ish), Connected, Attractive, & Hard to Hit. And in a perfect position to branch out with a bunch of low level skills right away.
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Oh, while it is lacking rituals and the skill to use them, that shouldn't be that big a deal since rituals aren't all that useful considering how much time they take to perform.
*drives by and shouts, "Ritual Magic isn't as bad as Alchemy" out the window*
*opens front door* "For Runners its worse!"
Ritual magic takes too long and tends to be better for stopping or screwing with runners rather than the other way around. Plus takes a more significant investment. IMO.
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I will admit, however, that the ritual equivalent of Heal is tempting for me as are Watchers, but one or two rituals isn't enough for me.
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Eh All4 I think your version is going in the wrong direction, though full credit for for a coming with an interesting variant, I really like the shinto robe thing, I'm totally stealing the hell out of that. I think the revised version is fine and totally playable. The sheet don't really need the gun but it's fun so carry on.
That said I agree with Hobbes, a caster in play will get better a lot faster by investing in initiation, foci, and quickened attributes. The skill list may vary slightly, but I would never count on it changing dramatically unless you're playing in game that goes on for years. Also Ritual maic is cool for sure but it's not for players excepting in specific themed games. But putting it on a single team mage it's fairly contradictory to the core caster role, or at least distracting from it.
All that said I think it's fine build, and should be totally playable.
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@Tarislar
Being a face is a nice dream I use to comfort myself, in practice resource, skill and atttribute shortages have convinced me its impossible to make one I'd be comfortable playing so I'm trying to focus on just the mage aspect.
Thanks for the suggestion but I'm afraid I'd choke on that character with no computer, driving, basic interaction skills its not a character to me its just a bunch of numbers I'd never be able to make myself care about. Every time I looked at it I'd be wondering just how in the world anyone got that good at those areas and never picked up basic etiquette or computer use. I know it is the better option mechanically intelectually but emotionally I'm just one of those people who can't accept the current design practice. I need my characters to be someone I could believe grew up and gained those skill organically for me to care about them as a character, to be beliveable in the setting and like I said I think I have a very diffrent view of what skill zero means to most people here. The design philosophy this game inspires of max out 1 skill then later branch out drives me up the wall even if I love the setting. Especially since as others have said mages do tend to need to focus their karma on other matters once the game starts (foci, spells, inititiation, etc) so planning to get those 1-3 skills comes at the cost of advancement as a mage.
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The design philosophy this game inspires of max out 1 skill then later branch out drives me up the wall even if I love the setting.
It isn't a design philosophy for the game, but rather the main flaw in a dice pool system. World of Darkness has the same flaw, but worse in that you're punished for maxing something out with extra costs and punished for not doing so by sucking at what you should be good at.
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The design philosophy this game inspires of max out 1 skill then later branch out drives me up the wall even if I love the setting.
If skill points, stat points, costed the same before and after char gen you'd see a lot more diversity in initial skills, and a bit less pedantic Max 3 or 4 skills and stats at chargen. Since skills and stats have an exponential cost curve it drives the behavior you see when coupled with the flat costs at chargen.
Even Karma gen characters suffer a bit from this because of Jack of All Trades doesn't kick in till after char gen. You're still moderately incentivized to focus on a few maxed skills at char gen. Which is totally bonkers because magic characters have two (essentially) straight line cost curves for growth in initiation and foci. So there obviously isn't any game balance reason for the steep exponential cost of stat and skill growth. And don't get me started on cyberware being a sunk cost.
Anyway, the harsh maths of character advancement drives the specialized character building behavior you see. *shrug* If you don't care about it, then rock on.
FWIW I recommend picking up those low ranks in skills at char gen with Karma. Just grab one or two dice in those skills you think you should have but won't actually use. Just sayin. 6 dice computer/driving/whatever isn't particularly different than 4 or 5 dice. You can have your desired character depth and be optimal at the same time. Not that picking up 3 extra dice on Pistol is a big deal for a mage, your character is fundamentally sound so you'll be fine at any table.
Apparently I need to give my soapbox to someone else for safekeeping....
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Not having a skill in something doesn't mean you can't use it. SR takes place in a time, where people really don't need to even know how to drive. Cars have piloting ratings, that can get ya there no problem. Factory workers get skill wires b/c the company doesn't want them to have skill, they just wants them to be the cogs in the machine. Breadth doesn't translate to representing the system any better then depth does. It's simple a question of preference. In general folks are going to focus down on the skill(s) that they feel are critical the role they want the character to play. Erring on the side of the helping the team the best way you can is simply logical.
The cost thing is deeper game design issue, 5th made some very different choices on that topic, with the raising of skill cap to 12 (Really 13). I've never seen anyone get anywhere near a 12 via karma. However I think it's about changing the dynamics of the field. When players start at the best they can be, there is no room to grow, and that is why I think skill cap increase is in play.
I do think it's odd that cost curve is non-linear for skills.
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@Tarislar
Being a face is a nice dream I use to comfort myself, in practice resource, skill and atttribute shortages have convinced me its impossible to make one I'd be comfortable playing so I'm trying to focus on just the mage aspect.
Thanks for the suggestion but I'm afraid I'd choke on that character with no computer, driving, basic interaction skills its not a character to me its just a bunch of numbers I'd never be able to make myself care about. Every time I looked at it I'd be wondering just how in the world anyone got that good at those areas and never picked up basic etiquette or computer use. I know it is the better option mechanically intelectually but emotionally I'm just one of those people who can't accept the current design practice. I need my characters to be someone I could believe grew up and gained those skill organically for me to care about them as a character, to be beliveable in the setting and like I said I think I have a very diffrent view of what skill zero means to most people here. The design philosophy this game inspires of max out 1 skill then later branch out drives me up the wall even if I love the setting. Especially since as others have said mages do tend to need to focus their karma on other matters once the game starts (foci, spells, inititiation, etc) so planning to get those 1-3 skills comes at the cost of advancement as a mage.
I completely agree with everything you said.
And then I remember that its not my fault the game designers decided to make the game the way it is where its significantly harder to advance the higher you are & the new priority system makes for Attribute & Skill Ratings that are the lowest of any edition of SR to date.
My character does what I say he does. Period
If I get my 7 Driving Dice from 4 Reaction & 3 Skill or from 8 Reaction & 0 Skill, it doesn't matter to me. He's got 7 dice. For 2 Hits on Average.
To me its the total Pool & Average Hits that tells me how good someone is at something. Not their skill level.
If it was up to me characters would have WAY more skill points at Chargen, and in turn they would be capped on the # of them at high levels.
I think 4E did this & while I skipped 4E, that part of it is something I wish they had kept.
But its not up to me. So I design a character to be the best he can in the limits of chargen at what their "role" is in the group.
I don't see that as being overly specialized.
I don't see a 0 in a skill as being complete idiots at it. I see it as just being regular people.
I know the fluff of each skill level doesn't agree with me. I DON'T CARE.
Like I said, they don't give you enough skill points to represent a High School Diploma's worth of knowledge.
Let alone someone who has 6 Years in the Military & a Master's Degree.
So again, I use the points to make the character be "good" at what they need to do to play that "role" for the team.
The rest of the time I assume they are not retreads who have no ability to break into a light jog just because I didn't give them Running-1
What can I say, gotta make due with what you got.
You can make below average characters that are "more real".
Or you can make a character that won't die on their first run & roleplay what a 5 Attr + 0 Dice actually represents to you.
Hope I'm not coming across as arguing, like I said, I totally agree with what you said & the system frustrates me to no end.
So I just work with it & put 6's on the things that are going to be common during the play session.
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While there are those that would abuse the ever loving crap out of it and make monsters, the following would have been a better priority setup for attributes and skills.
Attributes (copied verbatim from SR3 Core)
A- 30
B- 27
C- 24
D- 21
E- 18
Skills
A- 50 / 15
B- 45 / 10
C- 40 / 5
D- 35 / 3
E- 30 / 2
But then, I've always hated the idea of reducing things just because of what can be done through ruthless optimization and/or theory crafts.
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A$BG do you also suggest adding the limitations on skills that SR3 had?
If I remember right Attributes was a cost modifier to buying skills and didn't directly effect the DP of the Skill.
4/5e attributes add to the Skill DP.
By increasing both attributes points and skill points you increase the amount of skills at 12+DP dramatically.
Seriously, except for deckers or maybe riggers I'd be Attributes A, Skills E with the SR3 values.
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I'm not sure I'd run attributes to 30 as that's nearly every stat at 5/6 but the skills would be very nice especially for more skill intensive classes like mages and deckers, even if street sam do benefit from it as well..
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I'm not sure I'd run attributes to 30 as that's nearly every stat at 5/6 but the skills would be very nice especially for more skill intensive classes like mages and deckers, even if street sam do benefit from it as well..
Being Hardcapped in one attribute and being softcapped in 6 others means you can reasonably do team work rolls on most skill that can be used defaulted.
Take a look at a decker w/8 logic and 3 first aid...
Before you say that medkit 6 has 12 DP, if it's wireless it adds a +6limit and DP bonus to this decker for 17 DP.
If just one other guy is softcapped in LOG and has first aid 1 he can do a teamwork test and usually add +1limit and 2DP That changes the equations from 3-4 boxes healed to 4-5 boxes healed.
1-2 dice don't seem a lot but when your talking about most skill tests out of combat it adds up over the long run.
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PRIORITIES
B: Magic, Attributes, Skills.
D: Resources.
E: Human.
Thoughts?
I still think try out the following...
4 = Attributes + Magic
2 = Skills
0 = Meta + Resources
Use the Karma you spent on spells to buy Resources & L1 skills
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While there are those that would abuse the ever loving crap out of it and make monsters, the following would have been a better priority setup for attributes and skills.
Attributes (copied verbatim from SR3 Core)
A- 30
B- 27
C- 24
D- 21
E- 18
Skills
A- 50 / 15
B- 45 / 10
C- 40 / 5
D- 35 / 3
E- 30 / 2
But then, I've always hated the idea of reducing things just because of what can be done through ruthless optimization and/or theory crafts.
Agreed mostly.
Keeping it closer to 5E in feel w/ the 8 attributes, I went this route for an alternate priority sysytem.
Attributes
A = 28
B = 24
C = 20
D = 16
C = 12
Skills
A = 80 / 0
B = 70 / 0
C = 60 / 0
D = 50 / 0
E = 40 / 0
Priority-D Attributes for a Runner = "Average Joe Human"
No Skill Groups at Chargen, you can make them by assigning equal points, but your not "Required" to have them.
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Honestly, even the weakest of PCs should be several orders of magnitude superior to the Average Joe in every respect.
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While I get what your saying, I don't think it should be impossible to play a "below average" person if that is your choice at chargen.
So I have option D for Average & E for below average.
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I also notice you have no group skills which is interesting.
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Honestly, even the weakest of PCs should be several orders of magnitude superior to the Average Joe in every respect.
Should be, yeah, but not only are a lot of the archetypes weaker (lots of mundanes with little or no augmentations, etc.), but the "Average Joe" NPCs have been powered up. The beat cop contact has 20 points' worth of attributes, along with lots of skills in the 4-6 range (and knowledge skills rated even higher). A lot of what has been decried as "min-maxing" on these boards have just been people trying to scrounge enough dice to semi-reliably succeed at their main specialty.
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The Beat cop is hilarious. 42 skill points and 37! knowledge skill points.
Shadowrunner "Well I wanted to be a cop, but I just couldn't pass the exam, so here I am...."
Most of the contacts and most of the NPCs have beyond A in skills, several have more than 6+ ranks, and most of them have more knowledge skills than any runner will ever think about having.
Don't look at the NPCs and try to compare them to PCs. The NPCs were built to fill multiple roles with no resource constraints, just, what makes a good challenge is generally the main consideration with the NPCs.
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Yeah, but beat cop, come on. To be fair, they seemed to realize that they had made the contacts a bit overpowered. The ones in Run Faster are toned down a lot more, which is especially obvious for ones like bartender and street doc which show up in both books.
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I also notice you have no group skills which is interesting.
Yeah, I feel if you want a group, you apply equal points & then level it from there, but I don't like that you HAVE to have a group just because its on the chart.