Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Hobbes on <01-03-16/1505:59>
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All the other guns got a thread...
So I'm going with the recently Nerfed Ultimax Rain Forest Carbine now weighing in at 11P - 2 AP and 5 ACC it's basic stats are top of the line for ARs. Concealability of +4 with the stock folded in. No additional RC needed to handle Burst Fire mode (well, presuming a 2 Str). Favorite add on's are Silencer, Electronic Firing, and of course internal Smart link. With Sub-sonic Ammo you're up to -7 perception test with a threshold of 2 to hear it. Street Legal with a license and more concealable than other ARs. Hide it under a long coat and you're practically discreet. Okay, not really, but still. My new favorite for jr. commandos, or really anyone with a double digit palming skill.
Main draw back is lack of full auto, but it's hard to find more discrete gun with equivilant stopping power. At least one that isn't forbidden or had half the gun sawed off.
Missions errata on the Rain Forest
https://www.dropbox.com/s/022gpaf8wkohvwy/SRM%20Chicago%20FAQ%20Ver%200.1.pdf?dl=0 First entry of Section 11
Anyway, high stopping power, legal with license, no additional RC needed, more concealable than most ARs or Longarms, and available at char gen.
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Electronic firing and silencers are both barrel-mounted accessories. That combo works for the Ranger Arms, which comes with an integral ("slotless") silencer. All that aside, it's still a good pick for jobs that require a little discretion. For a completely different type of job, my merc character has a few different assault rifles, his default being a throwback AK-97 with melee hardening, extreme environmental adaptation 1, and as many slide mounts as it can hold. He has fancier guns like the requisite Alpha too, but this gun allows him to easily mod an assault rifle for the legality and job at hand and in true AK fashion, it can take a beating.
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SRM 06-01 Ten Fifty-Seven has the Ultimax Rain Forest Carbine listed as Acc 5, DV 11P, AP -6 (with APDS), SA only, RC1, with a clip size of 18(c), featuring a retractable stock and an external smartgun system. Is this a specific missions weapon for the Muckrackers only? Because this is different from the Missions FAQ...
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Licenses not withstanding, the Ares Alpha is still the king in that regard. The Rainforest may be a nice and discreet weapon, but the Alpha is at home where the combat is. Unique RC, underbarrel grenade launcher, large magazine... there is a reason it's a classic.
I wonder: If you removed the GL, would the Alpha become a mere restricted item? The AK 97 to AK 98 seems to suggest it.
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I wonder: If you removed the GL, would the Alpha become a mere restricted item? The AK 97 to AK 98 seems to suggest it.
As a GM, I would say yes.
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Electronic firing and silencers are both barrel-mounted accessories. That combo works for the Ranger Arms, which comes with an integral ("slotless") silencer.
Yamaha Raiden says "Hello!" : ) Just sayin. Electronic Firing is in the chamber, generally Silencers are at the other end of the barrel. I guess RAW they don't combine but I can't imagine that a weapon couldn't have both. The Raiden implies it's possible, or as you point out, any weapon with one or the other integral would be RAW to add the other. *shrug* I've never really paid any attention to what clips on to what by RAW, I've always just gone with what makes sense, at least in my own head.
Anyway, the Ares Alpha is certainly the Alpha dog of open war zones. If it absolutely has to die and you don't care who sees it coming, Alpha. Sadly, loud and obvious isn't always an option for runners. As far as restricted or forbidden by removing the GL, I'd go with no. The GL is integral and the Ares Alpha is on a list in some data base as a no-no. The AK-97 and AK-98 are technically different weapons. I think you'd have to house rule an Ares Alpha-Lima or something is a production weapon without the GL.
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I wonder: If you removed the GL, would the Alpha become a mere restricted item? The AK 97 to AK 98 seems to suggest it.
If it is sold without one, yes. If it isnt you need to somehow prove that you dont have that GL anymore...
Also with an AR some law enforcement might ask questions not in step one ;)
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Electronic Firing being a barrel mod has got to be an error; adding recoil compensation and making the weapon more silent seems like it would be a perfect pairing for a silencer and subsonic ammunition...
In any case, you could always add electronic firing to the Internal slot as per Run & Gun and the silencer to the barrel, or vice versa.
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I imagine every freelancer has some offbeat project s/he would secretly love to pursue. I'm not kidding when I say mine is to fix gun mods/slots.
RAW, there's a fair amount about gun mods that doesn't make sense. I'd certainly let someone stick electronic firing in the Internal slot and I'd guess that Herr Brackhaus is correct and that's what was intended. In the meantime, we're stuck with double-shock pad rifles ;)
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Double-shock pad rifles?
That's not possible under the Run & Gun rules on page 51 (emphasis mine):
In case it needs to be said, you can’t install the same modification or accessory twice and expect to double the benefits. If you really want to, you can install the same modification in two different spots, but you’ll only get the benefit once, so you’ll be wasting a slot.
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Key word there is install. Accessories that come with guns are integral as opposed to installed and don't consume slots. So the laser sight on the Enfield AS-7 that's described as "top-mounted" isn't actually in the top slot. And that's how you end up with double scoped/double shock padded rifles. Hopefully, any sane GM would point out that Shadowrun doesn't lend itself to pedantic readings and thwack the offending player with the rulebook. (Although a gun with two scopes is technically possible--Google "most tactical AR-15 ever" for a laugh.)
More concretely, there are mods like electronic firing that don't seem to be in the right slot, slots (like side) that aren't clearly defined (do light pistols have a side mount?), weapons with conflicting mods (Ingram Smartgun), and guns, like the Raiden, with an excess of options that seem to be both integral and internal.
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I'd buy Kincaid's Gun Shop. Just sayin.
And, yeah. Ingram Smartgun with Silencer and Gas Vents. Er. wat? I love the double padded guns. That's solid right there.
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Hahaha, Kincaid. I'd actually still argue that if a gun comes with a mod you can install (key word) a second one of the same type, but it would still be a wasted slot as you effectively achieve the same thing whether one was installed at the factory and the other by yourself. Pedantry, rejoice!
As for slots, I was under the simple impression that unless specified, all weapons have all slots. Light Pistols therefore have all slots except underbarrel (and stock) as mentioned in the core book, but side, barrel, top, and internal are free game.
And I've seen that tacticool AR before; in fact, I believe I even linked it on here once or twice ;)
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Key word there is install. Accessories that come with guns are integral as opposed to installed and don't consume slots. So the laser sight on the Enfield AS-7 that's described as "top-mounted" isn't actually in the top slot. And that's how you end up with double scoped/double shock padded rifles. Hopefully, any sane GM would point out that Shadowrun doesn't lend itself to pedantic readings and thwack the offending player with the rulebook. (Although a gun with two scopes is technically possible--Google "most tactical AR-15 ever" for a laugh.)
More concretely, there are mods like electronic firing that don't seem to be in the right slot, slots (like side) that aren't clearly defined (do light pistols have a side mount?), weapons with conflicting mods (Ingram Smartgun), and guns, like the Raiden, with an excess of options that seem to be both integral and internal.
I have to disagree with you.
Unless an option is stated as integral (and some are) it takes up a slot otherwise there's no reason to buy uns that aren't already modded since by your interpretation I could get the Ares Alpha and install a second underbarrel option- I'll pick flamethrower to go along with that grenade launcher please. And the Ingram has two barrel accessories already so why not add a third?
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partial to the colt m23 cheap as hell mod from the ground up you can buy several of these for the price of one of the others
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Unless an option is stated as integral (and some are) it takes up a slot otherwise there's no reason to buy guns that aren't already modded
Well, there is this from core;
Mounts: There are several places where a weapon accessory can be attached to a firearm: underbarrel, barrel, or top-mount. Only one accessory can be attached to a particular mount. Integral accessories (those that come with the weapon) don’t take up mount locations.
Hold-outs don’t have mounts. Pistols, machine pistols, and SMGs do not have an underbarrel mount, just top and barrel mounts. All rifles and heavy weapons have all three types of mounts. Projectile weapons can only take accessories designed for them specifically.
Unless Run & Gun has invalidated any portion of this, as opposed to adding Side / Internal / Stock to it, I believe it still stands.
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partial to the colt m23 cheap as hell mod from the ground up you can buy several of these for the price of one of the others
It's just so bad. When you bring an AR, it's because you're there to wreck security. The M23 is too weak, imo.
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Unless an option is stated as integral (and some are) it takes up a slot otherwise there's no reason to buy guns that aren't already modded
Well, there is this from core;
Mounts: There are several places where a weapon accessory can be attached to a firearm: underbarrel, barrel, or top-mount. Only one accessory can be attached to a particular mount. Integral accessories (those that come with the weapon) don’t take up mount locations.
Hold-outs don’t have mounts. Pistols, machine pistols, and SMGs do not have an underbarrel mount, just top and barrel mounts. All rifles and heavy weapons have all three types of mounts. Projectile weapons can only take accessories designed for them specifically.
Unless Run & Gun has invalidated any portion of this, as opposed to adding Side / Internal / Stock to it, I believe it still stands.
Yeah, I'd rather see Integral as a separate slot (probably for Internal-only accessories, I'd have to look that over) that players can't mod. So the laser sight on the Enfield is actually in the top slot and the Raiden's Integral and Internal slots are taken up with its smartlink and electronic firing.
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HK–227: The SMG of choice for many corporate and
military security forces, the HK–227 boasts a retractable
stock, smartgun system, and integral sound suppressor.
,emphasis mine>
This isn't the only weapon with multiple accessories but specifically spells out one as integral.
If you read the mount definition in Core as meaning any accessory which comes with the weapon then why use the word 'integral' with the above sound suppressor.
My contention is that the mount definition was just poorly worded.
An accessory is only 'integral' if it says so.
Otherwise it takes up a slot.
To look a it otherwise is to allow illogical combinations.
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Key word there is install. Accessories that come with guns are integral as opposed to installed and don't consume slots. So the laser sight on the Enfield AS-7 that's described as "top-mounted" isn't actually in the top slot. And that's how you end up with double scoped/double shock padded rifles. Hopefully, any sane GM would point out that Shadowrun doesn't lend itself to pedantic readings and thwack the offending player with the rulebook. (Although a gun with two scopes is technically possible--Google "most tactical AR-15 ever" for a laugh.)
More concretely, there are mods like electronic firing that don't seem to be in the right slot, slots (like side) that aren't clearly defined (do light pistols have a side mount?), weapons with conflicting mods (Ingram Smartgun), and guns, like the Raiden, with an excess of options that seem to be both integral and internal.
I have to disagree with you.
Unless an option is stated as integral (and some are) it takes up a slot otherwise there's no reason to buy uns that aren't already modded since by your interpretation I could get the Ares Alpha and install a second underbarrel option- I'll pick flamethrower to go along with that grenade launcher please. And the Ingram has two barrel accessories already so why not add a third?
I want this
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/File:ZF-1_500.jpg (http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/File:ZF-1_500.jpg)
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Hmm. Yeah, that works for me as an interpretation.
On topic, best assault rifle to be shot at with? SBd-44. If you know it's going to happen beforehand, saw off the barrel and remove the stock.
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Hmm. Yeah, that works for me as an interpretation.
On topic, best assault rifle to be shot at with? SBd-44. If you know it's going to happen beforehand, saw off the barrel and remove the stock.
:)
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I want this
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/File:ZF-1_500.jpg (http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/File:ZF-1_500.jpg)
You'll shoot your eye out, kid.
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I'd buy it
I'd buy Kincaid's Gun Shop. Just sayin.
And, yeah. Ingram Smartgun with Silencer and Gas Vents. Er. wat? I love the double padded guns. That's solid right there.
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Gonna make the case for the Nissan Optimum II.
Maybe not the hardest hitting, with the under-barrel shotgun and a bullpup design it's a CQB BEAST. And one can transition from close-quarters to open field combat without missing a beat. Comes with integral shock pad and smargun system, it's not cheap, but it's not the most expensive. Toss on a few choice mods and you got a great bang-bang.
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Gonna make the case for the Nissan Optimum II.
Maybe not the hardest hitting, with the under-barrel shotgun and a bullpup design it's a CQB BEAST. And one can transition from close-quarters to open field combat without missing a beat. Comes with integral shock pad and smargun system, it's not cheap, but it's not the most expensive. Toss on a few choice mods and you got a great bang-bang.
Someone needs to add breaching rounds and I'm sold.
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I'd actually vote for a weapons system like the XM30 or the Steyr AUG; not only do you get a decent assault rifle but it's also modular in that in can be equipped with an under-barrel shotgun or grenade launcher, and you can configure it as a Carbine (more concealable, less range) for when you don't want the cops called immediately.
Systems like that are also king for drone weapons; a single Targeting (XM30) Autosoft can be utilized across all drones regardless of configuration, so while the weapon itself is expensive you don't have to buy expensive Autosofts repeatedly. And since all configurations use the same ammunition the supply chain situation is relatively straight forward.
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The Nissan Optimum II is pretty meh.
You get pretty much the same with an AK-97 (950¥) with an underbarrel shotgun (600¥) an external Smartlink (200¥), shock pad 50 and a personalized grip (100¥) for a total of 1900¥ without it being forbidden.
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The Nissan Optimum II is pretty meh.
You get pretty much the same with an AK-97 (950¥) with an underbarrel shotgun (600¥) an external Smartlink (200¥), shock pad 50 and a personalized grip (100¥) for a total of 1900¥ without it being forbidden.
especially the name.( and its an ugly Gun too)
shouldn't it be NITAMA Optimum ?
since I has been a Nitama and if it's a II it should be a Nitama roo
wit a Dance II
Medicineman
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Now that I think about it, the XM30 is a great drone weapon. Multiple weapon options all in one gun. Not as good a weapon for runners due to it using 3 skills for full effect. Drones only needs one. And the Rigger only needs gunnery.
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No love for the shiawase arms monsoon? Each barrel holds 20 rounds and I believe it has six of them (I know it was at least 4 off hand). Each barrel is enough for a suppressive fire action and can hold different ammo! Ever wanted to be able to switch ammo types right before you go full auto? No more mag changes, just pick the barrel filled with gel and off you go. Some drones show up as well? Good thing you have a barrel full of S-N-S ready to go, already onboard.
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>> No love for the shiawase arms monsoon?
Lots of Love from my side. :)
Its perfect for Fire Support Drones
And also for Ammo Switch Options since CGL "forgot" that Mod
with a switched Dance
Medicineman
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Medicineman
Hard Targets has the Ammo Skip Mod from Arsenal, but it only applies to drum and cylinder type ammunition systems. So the target audience is really limited, since there is no "Extended Clip: Drum" modification (though that is easily houseruled as making the Rating 2 Extended Clip option a drum mag).
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Medicineman
Hard Targets has the Ammo Skip Mod from Arsenal, but it only applies to drum and cylinder type ammunition systems. So the target audience is really limited, since there is no "Extended Clip: Drum" modification (though that is easily houseruled as making the Rating 2 Extended Clip option a drum mag).
Gnaaarg, me and my bad English :)
I meant the Dual Clip Mod.
I really like(d) it in SR4A ,also Weapons with Dual Clips to switch between 2 different Mags/Clips.
I used the Ammo Skip since 3rd ed , even as a Houserule. Most often in the Ruger Super Warhawk
with a switched Dance
Medicineman
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Medicineman
Hard Targets has the Ammo Skip Mod from Arsenal, but it only applies to drum and cylinder type ammunition systems. So the target audience is really limited, since there is no "Extended Clip: Drum" modification (though that is easily houseruled as making the Rating 2 Extended Clip option a drum mag).
Should be able to make it a belt fed modification, I mean it does it for weapon mounts for vehicles.
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Dual clip mod... Aka some charging you for duct tape! Lol! ;)
I take it what you mean is a mod that let's you have to different clip loaded into the weapon and can switch between either, such as one is loaded with says S-N-S and the other has APDS.
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No love for the shiawase arms monsoon? Each barrel holds 20 rounds and I believe it has six of them (I know it was at least 4 off hand). Each barrel is enough for a suppressive fire action and can hold different ammo! Ever wanted to be able to switch ammo types right before you go full auto? No more mag changes, just pick the barrel filled with gel and off you go. Some drones show up as well? Good thing you have a barrel full of S-N-S ready to go, already onboard.
...sounds like a Yamaha Fubuki on steroids.
Interesting they never brought that one back.
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I'd actually vote for a weapons system like the XM30 or the Steyr AUG; not only do you get a decent assault rifle but it's also modular in that in can be equipped with an under-barrel shotgun or grenade launcher, and you can configure it as a Carbine (more concealable, less range) for when you don't want the cops called immediately.
Systems like that are also king for drone weapons; a single Targeting (XM30) Autosoft can be utilized across all drones regardless of configuration, so while the weapon itself is expensive you don't have to buy expensive Autosofts repeatedly. And since all configurations use the same ammunition the supply chain situation is relatively straight forward.
Had an Assassin/Bounty Hunter concept built around the XM30, Firearms and Heavy weapons covered all uses of it and allowed for a sidearm as well. Main idea being it was one of those 'ready for anything' characters. Job called for sniping? Slap the sniper barrel in and setup a position. Needed to get in close? Carbine barrel and Shotgun. Didn't matter how much noise was made? Assault Riffle barrel and Grenade Launcher. Sustained fire? LMG barrel.
Combine that thing with some of the Hard Targets modifications (trigger removal & electronic firing (use a cable from datajack for secure firing system), RPC, retractable stock) as well as suppressors for the carbine and sniper barrels and gas venting on the AR and LMG barrels you had one MEAN ass weapon system.
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Google "most tactical AR-15 ever" for a laugh.)
Oh, dear lord! LOL!
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Google "most tactical AR-15 ever" for a laugh.)
Oh, dear lord! LOL!
It's tacticool, baby!
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Google "most tactical AR-15 ever" for a laugh.)
Oh, dear lord! LOL!
It's tacticool, baby!
most important:
the TicTac Treats
with a Facepalming Dance
Medicineman
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Ya I never understood why you couldnt mount a bipod on a handgun https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/9e/49/81/9e4981eea1423379d3eb83460895388b.jpg
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That's not a handgun, that's a handcannon...
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Ya I never understood why you couldnt mount a bipod on a handgun https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/9e/49/81/9e4981eea1423379d3eb83460895388b.jpg
Because you look like a freakin' Idiot when in the middle/start of a fight you go:
"Whoa! Hold on guys! I gotta set up my bipod for my pistol!"
?
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I very partial to the AK-97.
Not cause its the best, or does the most damage, or has the best assories....
But cause its the best 'bang' for your buck. And the fact that some times, getting away means you have to ditch equipment.
Rather throw away a few hundred, then a few thousand!
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At that point, the M23 is even cheaper! And with a lower Accuracy... Hrm.
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...also, you can get a licence for your AK 97.and with the right mods it really isn't all that bad.
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Where can I read more about the XM30?
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Get a colt M23 and put an explosive magazine on it. Load it and remove the mag release. Cover the hole for the release. Even better, add the weapon safety that locks the gun. Shoot it till its empty, then drop or throw at your enemy. Run away. If you dropped it they are likely to chase you (and in an area like a hall) they will be forced next to the spent gun. Click boom. Classic.
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Where can I read more about the XM30?
...Run & Gun P. 37.
Not available at Chargen (availability 15F)
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Unless you use Restricted Gear, but there are better choices than a weapons platform in my opinion.
Unless you're a cybersamurai with artificial limbs and smuggling compartments, in which case you simply add Easy Breakdown to the XM30 and you never have to leave your guns at home again. Carry the whole loafout with you, if you add enough smuggling compartments.
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No no no... You fill your smuggling compartments full of CD Dragonflies. Que them all to pop open with one command and launch the swarm!
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You fill your smuggling compartments full of CD Dragonflies
Noizquitos with mini weapon mounts!
Though I'd rather see a hunchbacked drone with a few micro drone racks mounted in it's back ...
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For runners who's only gun skill is automatics the Ares Alpha offers something that I think no other brand does (unless I missed something): Brand loyalty Ares seems like a good deal if your only gun skill is automatics
because you get a decent entry in each subcategory of automatics
Assault
Ares Alpha (and the placeholder HVAR until you can afford it)
SMG
The executioner for stealth and the Sigma for Ammo skip shenanigans
Machine Pistol
Crusader: not the best but you could do a lot worse
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Sigma-3 with extended magazine (2) and ammo skip system for 20 round suppressive fire actions with 5 different ammo types. Je suis prest!
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can you extend a drum?
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Sure, why not? Unless someone argues the extreme pedantry of the name being "extended clip", and a drum not being a clip.
The core of the mod does this:
A Rating 1 Extended Clip adds fifty percent more rounds to the gun’s capacity, and a Rating 2 Extended Clip adds one hundred percent more rounds.
Note the usage of "gun's capacity" as opposed to "clip's capacity". I'm sure some will argue this on grammar grounds, but I'd certainly allow it.
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Sure, why not? Unless someone argues the extreme pedantry of the name being "extended clip", and a drum not being a clip.
The core of the mod does this:
A Rating 1 Extended Clip adds fifty percent more rounds to the gun’s capacity, and a Rating 2 Extended Clip adds one hundred percent more rounds.
Note the usage of "gun's capacity" as opposed to "clip's capacity". I'm sure some will argue this on grammar grounds, but I'd certainly allow it.
Ever seen a beta mag? Its basically a double drum.
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Ever seen a beta mag? Its basically a double drum.
Do you have me confused with someone who wouldn't allow extended clip to be done to a drum?
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Ever seen a beta mag? Its basically a double drum.
Do you have me confused with someone who wouldn't allow extended clip to be done to a drum?
Nope. Its a real life example of doubling a drums ammo capacity.
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Ya I never understood why you couldnt mount a bipod on a handgun https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/9e/49/81/9e4981eea1423379d3eb83460895388b.jpg
I don't think you're going far enough. Bipod for your knife (https://youtu.be/eBeB1CGWeHM).
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The best assault rifle is the one in your hands provided you have ammo. The worst is the one in your opponents hands.
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...my little demolitionist Leela has a fully modded out AK97 with Internal Smartlink, Shock Pad, GV III, Underbarrel Bola launcher (for her radio detonated "boom bolas") and several clips of handloaded EXEX (DV) for a base DV of 13P.
...and it's licenced.
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Handloaded ... yeah. Why can you handmade better ammo for yourself without any risks (especially when dealing with ExEx) with such an easy test is beyond me.
But it's interesting to see that some tables seem to use it.
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Handloaded ... yeah. Why can you handmade better ammo for yourself without any risks (especially when dealing with ExEx) with such an easy test is beyond me.
But it's interesting to see that some tables seem to use it.
Because handloading isn't really wizardry and loading ammo closer to the specific tolerances of a specific gun is just more convenient than using "lowest common denominator" ammo ???
I get that handloading certain special rounds (Depletet Uranium ;D) is a bit of a far stretch, but for most "normal" shots like ball, hollow point, frangible etc?
Don't see the problem, neither with the process, nor with the gain in quality.
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Handloading is still bound by availability rules, i.e. you need to get appropriate materials, so handloaded DU rounds will be just as rare as regular DU rounds...
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I already hand load all my ammo.
It's way, WAY cheaper, even after you buy your scales, press, dyes, lead, brass and powder.
Give you an idea.
A box of .44 mag hollow point lead (5000 to a box): $350
A case of .44 mag brass (5000): $250
A 3kg container of powder (Bullseye): $275
Pistol caps(5000): $275
Compared to a box of 50 preloaded .44mag cartridges: $155. (Just over $3 a round!)
For $1200 and my time, I save $350 on 5000 rounds.... AND, the brass is a one time purchase as you can reuse your brass almost indefinately.... (about 200 reloads before you have a chance of thin walling.)
And, its not hard. Go to any Gun shop and you can pick up a book that will tell you all your weights for the various brands of powder. (Not all are created equal!)
But, that is not to say mistakes and accidents don't happen. About 10 years ago when I was new to handloading, I made an error and read the wrong column when loading .38 specials. I misread the powder load for the powder I was using and added 3.7 extra grains...
When I fired the rounds from my .357 mag King Cobra, I litterally blew the gun up in my hand! The explosion pealed the cyinder open, blew the barrel off frame, and the rear site came to rest IN my collar bone. (Requiring surgry to remove)
Damn lucky that rear site didn't kill me!
Since then, I take some extra safety precautions. (Random checks of hand load weights, only use a single brand of powder, blacking out any other powder entries in my manual...)
If I find the time, I'll post a picture what is left of the pistol when I get back home. (I keep it on my loading desk as a reminder.)
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Heh. There's a reason I would never use handloaded .338s unless done by a unit armorer I really trusted, and even then I'd prefer Lapua or Sierra rounds over handloads and/or wildcats.
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@Reaver
sounds like a critical glitch where you burned some edge to downgrade it to a simple glitch :o
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@Reaver
sounds like a critical glitch where you burned some edge to downgrade it to a simple glitch :o
what it really shows is just how dangerous gunpowder really is!
3.7 grains is LESS then a quarter gram of extra powder. Yet that quarter gram exceeded the tolerance of a hardened stainless steel .357 magnum revolver!
Explosives are dangerous things to mess with, and when you consider that all a gun is, is a EXPLOSIVE device that directs the explosion along a linear path.
(Hammer hits the primer cap, creating a spark, spark ignites the powder causing an explosion and rapid expansion of gases, the gas then pushes against all sides of the shell equally. The lead, which is just form pressed into the cartridge is the weakest link, causing the lead to expelled...)
In my case, that rapid expansion of gases pushed on the walls of the shell, and BLEW OUT the side of the cartridge, the force of which blew out the cylinder! (turned it into a basic U shape). If I remember correctly, the lead was still in the cylinder! (so It didn't even clear the barrel).
Now, all that said, I still hand load. simply because I like to shoot, and shooting gets expensive when you are not buying just .22 rim fire. In Canada, so no idea about the prices in the States or else where, and I have a large collection of fire arms that if I want to shoot, I am basically forced to hand load. Still costs me thousands of dollars a year, for the amount I shoot... but that still beats store bought for savings.
I haven't read the rules for hand loads in the new book (don't have it yet), but it is possible to tweak the powder to tolerance ratios to get a little more "bang" for your "buck", but.... as my case shows, those tolerances are closer the many people think!
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Handloads add +20% in cost (if done by someone else) for either +1 DV or +1 AP. I think it is only 10% more if you do it yourself, but have to have the skills and gear.
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10% for +1 DV is almost a no-brainer, even if you only use it to make Regular rounds instead of anything fancy. Even then it might easily be worth it with a few points in Armorer.
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It's 10% cost increase to hand-load your own ammunition. 25% to purchase.
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Given the direction the latest SRM season is headed in, this may become my character's casual carry.
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With a threshold of 4 and a duration of 30 minutes, even a Logic 3 character with an Armorer skill of 1 and a Specialization in Ammunition could crank these out relatively reliably in a home game.
In Missions, due to the buying hits rule, you'd need 9 dice to start with so you could buy 2 hits on the first extended test and 2 more on the second in order to reliably make handloaded regular rounds at a rate of 10/hour. If you wanted to make special ammunition in Missions, you'd really only need 10 dice to buy 2 hits each on the first, second, and third interval, producing any special ammunition you can get materials for at a rate of 10/1.5 hour.
The +1 DV makes it instantly worth it in nearly every circumstance, in my opinion. Logic 3 + Armorer (Ammunition) 3 (+2) and a helper drone or two for teamworking suddenly became very, very useful.
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Well, certainly worth the extra +25% cost. I'd debate the value of investing in a skill just to save around 15% on your Ammo costs.
3 Skill even with JoaT is 1+3+5, 9 Karma or 18,000 Nuyen essentially. Break even point is just over 100,000 nuyen worth of Ammo.
If you're taking Armorer anyway, then sure. But you still need a dice pool of around 7 to get a threshold of 4 by buying hits.
I was disappointed when I did the math as I thought I had something to do with an Armorer skill other than just flavor. But nope. Dice pool of 7 is just too much investment on a dump stat and a skill with minimal in game use. Just get an armorer contact and call it a day. IMO of course.
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With a threshold of 4 and a duration of 30 minutes, even a Logic 3 character with an Armorer skill of 1 and a Specialization in Ammunition could crank these out relatively reliably in a home game.
In Missions, due to the buying hits rule, you'd need 9 dice to start with so you could buy 2 hits on the first extended test and 2 more on the second in order to reliably make handloaded regular rounds at a rate of 10/hour. If you wanted to make special ammunition in Missions, you'd really only need 10 dice to buy 2 hits each on the first, second, and third interval, producing any special ammunition you can get materials for at a rate of 10/1.5 hour.
The +1 DV makes it instantly worth it in nearly every circumstance, in my opinion. Logic 3 + Armorer (Ammunition) 3 (+2) and a helper drone or two for teamworking suddenly became very, very useful.
...yeah as Leela is a Missions character, she just gets hers through Goober (one of the Chicago contact personalities).
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@Hobbes
Don't spend Karma for something a drone can do for you:
The Reloading Drone costs 3000 and has armorer autosoft. If you upgrade the pilot for 3200 the drone can reliably buy four hits in two hours. Have the little buddy work 24 hours and enjoy your 120 shots per day.
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With a threshold of 4 and a duration of 30 minutes, even a Logic 3 character with an Armorer skill of 1 and a Specialization in Ammunition could crank these out relatively reliably in a home game.
In Missions, due to the buying hits rule, you'd need 9 dice to start with so you could buy 2 hits on the first extended test and 2 more on the second in order to reliably make handloaded regular rounds at a rate of 10/hour. If you wanted to make special ammunition in Missions, you'd really only need 10 dice to buy 2 hits each on the first, second, and third interval, producing any special ammunition you can get materials for at a rate of 10/1.5 hour.
The +1 DV makes it instantly worth it in nearly every circumstance, in my opinion. Logic 3 + Armorer (Ammunition) 3 (+2) and a helper drone or two for teamworking suddenly became very, very useful.
...yeah as Leela is a Missions character, she just gets hers through Goober (one of the Chicago contact personalities).
Just in case people haven't read the latest FAQ including Hard Targets. Hand Loading isn't allowed, but you can purchase them, and combine it with anything but really exotic rounds(Subsonic, Capsule, Stick-n-Shock, etc.).
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@Hobbes
Don't spend Karma for something a drone can do for you:
The Reloading Drone costs 3000 and has armorer autosoft. If you upgrade the pilot for 3200 the drone can reliably buy four hits in two hours. Have the little buddy work 24 hours and enjoy your 120 shots per day.
Hand Loaded by the finest robot mass assembly... And why isn't the Ammo you buy off the shelf made by cheap robots? *shakes head*
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As Reaver said: Different guns have different tolerances. You get tailor made ammo for your gun.
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So to buy a +1DV to your Regular, Gel, APDS type ammo you just pay 25% more in a Missions game?
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So to buy a +1DV to your Regular, Gel, APDS type ammo you just pay 25% more in a Missions game?
Away from books, but I believe that's it; relatively confident the availability doesn't change, but I haven't double checked that any time recently.
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Hand loads have a fixed availability of 4R
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That might be one for the Missions FAQ; seems odd that hand loads wouldn't add +4 instead of having a fixed availability; unless that's just hand loaded regular ammo, and DU Rounds remain 28F for example.
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As Reaver said: Different guns have different tolerances. You get tailor made ammo for your gun.
It's silly RAW and Reality mixing that is mildly humorous to me. "Hand Loaded" is actually "Assembled by a Robot", and "tailor made ammo for your gun" RAW works with any other gun the exact same way. RAW Hand Loaded is a quality for any Assault Rifle (or whatever) Ammo that works in any AR, so it's not really custom for your weapon.
It's all very silly to me. I tossed it on my own Banned list along with R.I.M. as soon as I saw it. I was hoping Missions play would too, since Hand Loaded is simply unneeded source book escalation, IMO.
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A matter of taste I guess.
I like the image of especially crafted ammo for special occasions. Or modded ammo for your modded gun
(A Ruger Super Warhawk with, personalized grip, extended barrel, ammo select, smart link, custom design and hand crafted Ex-Ex/APDS/Gel rounds just fit together so well)
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A matter of taste I guess.
I like the image of especially crafted ammo for special occasions. Or modded ammo for your modded gun
(A Ruger Super Warhawk with, personalized grip, extended barrel, ammo select, smart link, custom design and hand crafted Ex-Ex/APDS/Gel rounds just fit together so well)
Oh absolutely. Armorer, and to a lesser extent Hardware, are underutilized skills RAW. I would love for the "WeaponMaster" type character to be more viable with rules that support customized weapons, ammo, and armor. As it is, shooty characters are best served dumping logic and the assorted skills and picking up a contact, or a drone.
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For that kind of weapon master you need a control rig and your weapons on smart platforms.
Funnily enough this kind of weapons master only needs Logic and Gunnery to function
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Dear Loyal Customers,
We here at Ares Macrotechnology strive to ensure that our products are at the bleeding edge of technology.
That being said, we are currently developing a new line of longarms that will rock the entire market.
However, at this time we here at Ares Macrotechnology can only provide what is currently on sale: the celebrated Ares Alpha.
This rifle has been the choice rifle for countless soldiers, security personnel, private military companies (such as Knight Errant and Firewatch), and for some of the most daring shadowrunners on the planet.
Time and time again, this rifle has proven to be the most qualified rifle for standard combat, wherever and however that may take place.
Although there are many restrictions on the Alpha, we here at Area Macrotechnology strive daily to make this quality firearm available to a wider crowd of responsible people.
Despite these restrictions and what other people may say about 'concealability' and other details, this rifle is still the best on the market.
It's in the name: Alpha
Please take time to consider all the advantages of Ares equipment.
-Damian Knight, CEO and President of Ares Macrotechnology
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The best assault rifle is the one in your hands provided you have ammo. The worst is the one in your opponents hands.
Richard Marcinko once said (mind you I am paraphrasing) the weapon does not matter whether it be a G-3, AK47, FN FAL, or M16. It is the shooter pulling the trigger that makes it deadly.
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ok I will give you my old beat up rusted 22 rifle
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All I am going to say is,
"There is a reason why a 70 year old gun is still the most popular weapon in the world"
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ok I will give you my old beat up rusted 22 rifle
Ha! Okay you can build silencers for .22s easily. It would be a pretty good close range assassination weapon and it would not be a financial burden to toss it after words.
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There's a lot of fiddlin' I'd love to do with assault rifles. There ar also several that need to be in books but aren't yet.
Hm.
Hmm...
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SMGs could use some love too, I'd almost always go for a Machine Pistol or Assault Rifle over an SMG right now.
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Yeah, the RnG Smg selection was very disappointing - all that filler; but only two sMguns, both illegal.
My vote: Colt Inception. Legal, accurate, powerful. No smartgun BS.
-g
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My favorite SMG is the Sigma 3 but I'd really like a mechanic for reloading a drum fed weapon other than by hand.
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here's a few fun ones from our campaign, two of them are REAL weapons today ;-)
Although none of them are assault rifles.
I'll post some of the "Assault rifle pistols" in our campaign a little later (google it, it's a thing to cut the stock from an assault rifle, shorten the barrel insanely so it approaches the size of a really big pistol/smg).
Recoil would be nuts and accuracy poor but they pack a nice punch.
Waiting for Reaver to comment ;-)
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The only issue I see is with the spray down.... the ACC is too high for a short barreled, rapid fired, hip supported assault round.
More like 3(5). Its built to hide and suppress, not shoot dimes at 200 meters.
Other then that, no real issues.
'Gambler's riggs' have been around for 200 years (arm slide). Though generally with a very small weapon. (AKA ammo count)
And I have fired a cut down M4....
Makes for a sore wrist and a barn scared shitless at anything over 15 meters with any speed to the shots....
All in all, a waste of time when there are already pistols that exceed assault rifles in TKO proformance... (the .357, .41, .44, .44-40, .50, .454 all either cal or mag.) And they fit in a holster, and don't require modification.
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agreed good catch
The only issue I see is with the spray down.... the ACC is too high for a short barreled, rapid fired, hip supported assault round.
More like 3(5). Its built to hide and suppress, not shoot dimes at 200 meters..
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I like the house ruled guns, agree with Reaver on ACC.
Someone mentioned the Colt Interception. I like the idea and want to love the weapon, but the AP is just to low for me, problem with all the assault rifles in GH3.
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One small problem is that the SMG is really handy for close-combat and portability in a way that (most) rifles aren't.
But we don't have any sort of close-in mechanic for awkward shooting, thus, a hold-out pistol's no better than a sniper rifle, and a sniper rifle is no worse than a hold out pistol, when you're wrestling with somebody. A GM might rule otherwise based on, you know, reality, but, some people get a tad angry that there's no rule that says you can't.
So, that takes away a reason for the durn things, leaving them less-concealable than a pistol and less powerful than an AssRifle, so, nobody really touches them.
(Sniper rifles, as they stand, are a real bugbear for me, due to being the best weapon around.)
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Yeah, mechanically SMGs are in an odd place. The Machine Pistols have the concealability and the same damage. The ARs win for damage and can be made to be somewhat concealable. Some SMGs have more firing mode options than the machine pistols so I guess if you really need Full Auto in as small a package as possible SMG is the answer. Unless you've got a Bullpup AR with the Stock removed and the Short Barrel mod, then you're back down to a +2 Concealability on an 11P or so weapon. -2 ACC can be overcome with other mods, recoil would be an issue though without Stock or Barrel Mods if you're doing full auto bursts.
In any case, mechanically, SMGs are kind of niche unfortunately.
And I gotta disagree with Sniper Rifles being the best weapon. At least for Shadowrunners not in the CZ. If Concealability and Legality don't matter then the ArmTech MGL-12 wins.
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Except for range, Accuracy, and cost; each shot with that launcher is 40-100 nuyen (depends on the rounds you're using). Plus, a ton of collateral damage, as opposed to singular bullet holes.
Yeah, the big problems with SMGs is that machine pistols and carbines fill the role they should take better than the SMG does.
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we have a houserule that the longer your gun the more negative penalties you face in close combat/ tight spaces.
pistols & machine pistols 0
SMGs -1
assault rifles & shotguns -2
Sniper Rifles & LMGs -3
HMGs -4
Reduce the mod by 1 if you shorten the barrel and/or remove the stock.
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here's a few more from our realm
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mp
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hi-ds rounds
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The Yamaha Raiden is the "Oooh, shiiiiiny" gun that I look at and think, "I bet that's like driving a Porsche," and then I look at the AK-97 and I'm like, "ya know, even if I throw a few add ons I don't feel bad if you break or I lose you because you're so damn easy to replace," and honestly I've had the AK do some work for me on runs. Went on a solo mission for some extra nuyen where I had to steal a Chinese sword from a cargo crate in a warehouse. The run went fine but when I met up with my Johnson for the delivery I got ambushed by a few trolls toting automatic weapons. Let's just say I had a feeling I'd be needing to wear my brown pants that day. So I get myself into a good spot, steady myself, and then yell "ROCK AND ROLL!!" as I fire full auto into each troll, one by one, snuffing each one of them out. I was so mad I didnt get paid that day, but at least the sword was magical and possibly dated back a couple thousand years.
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All I am going to say is,
"There is a reason why a 70 year old gun is still the most popular weapon in the world"
...if you're talking about the AK, yes, they're simple, cheap, a lot of them were made, and they are very rugged (bury one in the sand for ten years, dig it up and it will still shoot). One can also mod the daylights out of one.
Also they don't draw as much attention from the Star or Knight like one of those "shiny" Alphas or Raidens will.
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here's a few more from our realm
Have some issues with these two.
For the Big Dog, I would rather just carry a Warhawk, unless this also can use chock mods like normal shotguns or the Roomsweaper.
As for the underbarrel shotgun, all shotguns have base AP -1 when using slugs, why is this one worse?
As for your MP, finally a competitor with the Remington Suppressor. Less base ACC and DV, but it has all three firing mods, which the Remington Suppressor does not.
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Interesting points...
The Big Dog is for a Troll sized metahuman and fires shotgun type shells (flechette).
If the Roomsweeper has one then no reason the Big Dawg shouldn't
But having said that this weapon is as much about cool as anything else.
Good point ill up the ap.
Ill have a look at the Remington Supressor.
cheers for the input.
here's a few more from our realm
Have some issues with these two.
For the Big Dog, I would rather just carry a Warhawk, unless this also can use chock mods like normal shotguns or the Roomsweaper.
As for the underbarrel shotgun, all shotguns have base AP -1 when using slugs, why is this one worse?
As for your MP, finally a competitor with the Remington Suppressor. Less base ACC and DV, but it has all three firing mods, which the Remington Suppressor does not.
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we have a houserule that the longer your gun the more negative penalties you face in close combat/ tight spaces.
pistols & machine pistols 0
SMGs -1
assault rifles & shotguns -2
Sniper Rifles & LMGs -3
HMGs -4
Reduce the mod by 1 if you shorten the barrel and/or remove the stock.
Out of curiosity, where do carbines fit in here?
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Remington Suppressor is in Gun H(e)aven 3. Otherwise, no problem, glad to be of help.
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I would say in the AR and shotgun category.
Carbines, while smaller and lighter then a full rifle, are still (generally) bigger then a SMG....
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hadn't considered tbh kincaide, Reaver sounds right though.
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Yeah, that certainly makes sense. I've been fiddling with a similar house rule since (and I admit I am occasionally guilty of this in SRM) having people clear tight spaces with M110s (or EBRs) seems...well, just too weird...and I'd love to find some way to make carbines attractive for their actual purpose.
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fyi after some debate changed the mods this past weekend.
Pistols, Machine Pistols & SMGs: 0
ARs, Shotguns (& Carbines): -1
Sniper Rifles and LMGs -2
HMGs -3
removing the SMG penalty gives you a slight reason to use an SMG.
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I like the new penalties you just did/reworked. If I ever run a game, I'm so using these.
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Where do MMGs fit in? :)
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gah!!!!
I dunnno, same a LMGs?
Is their damage code /performance closer to LMGs or HMGs?
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Depends on the weapon. This is one of the few classes of weapons that varies a lot (kinda like heavy pistols).
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Really? I thought there were only a handful of MMGs, and they all fit pretty much in between LMGs and HMGs with +/- 1DV and AP. I'd have to check the books to be sure though.
ETA:
Most LMGs are 9DV, -2 AP with the exception of the Vindicator which is -4 AP and the Krime Wave which is 10DV.
MMGs range from 10DV and -2AP through 11DV and -3 AP; there are only three of them, so it's a pretty short list.
HMGs are all -4 AP and two are 12DV while one is only 11DV.
If I was going to even further simplify Light, Medium, and Heavy MGs it'd make them 9/11/12DV and -2/3/4 AP.
Considering the strength requirement of an HMG, it's not exactly something you'll see every day.
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Using concealability as a base for the modifiers doesn't seem too off to me. The larger weapons are kinda lumped together, leaving some room for estimation. Brackhaus' categorization is really good, I like it.
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@Herr Brackhaus maybe I was thinking LMGs. Oh, I stand corrected.
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What do you think of the Shiawase Arms Monsoon on a drone ? It allows to load different type of bullets to handle different situations, and with 120 rounds you should be able to finish a fight without reloading.
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On drones, it is not bad, unless some GM forces some odd interpretation of how much ammo the drone can carry. Only issue is if you for whatever reason need more ammo than 120 rounds, then reloading can be a pain.
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Best AR for what?
If you want something to put on a smart platform and guard your decker, I'd say the Monsoon with a smart safety. Good firepower, and you won't have to reload it for a while.
Before smartsoft and pilot increases, the best weapon for drones was the -97 or -98. Now I'm less sure; still thinking it over.
if you want a smartlinked AR without an under-barrel weapon, again the monsoon. The Raiden is better, but also harder to get, and not chargen legal
If you want the best AR out there, the Alpha is the undisputed Cadillac. It's also expensive, hard to get your hands on, and forbidden. If you took the firearms group (And have longarms/shotgun but not heavy weapons/grenade-launcher) the Nissan optimum might be a better, if softer-hitting, option.
The best supressive bang for buck on a straight AR, is probably the AK-97. If you don't mind your weapon being forbidden, the AK-98 adds a grenade launcher for only Y300.
The M23 makes a good barter item, or something cheap to put in an emergency stash.
If you just need a lot of bullets to reduce that adept's defense pool, the HVAR is the way to go, despite how weak it is per bullet.
Best restricted is a tossup between AK-97 or FN HAR. If not using erratta (And not desiring aurofire,) the rainforest was king in this slot.
Of course, all this depends on the user being strong enough to control bursts. on a normal-ish human, you may be better off with the longarm skill and a sporting rifle or shotgun.
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The HVAR was the best in terms of number of bullets, but it's special rules didn't make it into SR5 and as such it is now just a mediocre and overpriced AR.
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It's still got the best RC, and therefore can pump the most bullets before dice penalties.
That's stock, of course. If you're adding after-market, all my advice goes out the window.
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The HVAR was the best in terms of number of bullets, but it's special rules didn't make it into SR5 and as such it is now just a mediocre and overpriced AR.
They actually got added to the German Run&Gun.
Will post them later when I'm back home.
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Nice! Thanks, Duellist. I'm very curious to see how the German writers converted the 4th Edition rules.
Can you check if the minigun got special rules too, please?
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I can already tell you from the top of my head that the Vindicator also, got special rules.
Will also post them when I'm back.
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I can help you out:
Kreuzfeuer p.37
"Hochgeschwindigkeitswaffen
Optionale Regel: Hochgeschwindkeitswaffen wie das Ares HVAR haben eine sehr hohe Kadenz und verwenden speziell entwickelte Läufe und Munition, um eine Überhitzung zu vermeiden. Im Salvenmodus feuern Hochgeschwindigkeitswaffen 4 Kugeln pro Salve ab (Also 8 Kugeln bei einer Langen Salve). Im vollautomatischen Modus feuern sie 9 Kugeln mit einer Einfachen Handlung oder 12 Kugeln mit einer Komplexen Handlung ab. Die Rückstoß und Verteidiungsmodifikatoren werden entsprechend angepasst (-3 für Salvenmodus, -7 für Lange Salven und automatisches Feuern mit 8 Kugeln, -11 für automatisches Feuern mit 12 Kugeln). Die Regen für Sperrfeuer bleiben unverändert."
In essence this means: HVAR fire 4 instead of 3 bullets in a short salvo, 8 instead of 6 for a long salvo and 12 instead of 10 for FA. The defense mods and recoil are accordingly -3, - 7 and -11.
p.42
"Miniguns
Optionale Regel: Miniguns verfügen über mehrere rotierende Läufe, mit denen sie atemberaubende Kadenzen erreichen können. Miniguns können nur im vollautomatischen Modus feuern, in dem sie 15 statt der üblichen 10 Kugeln abfeuern. Rückstoß- und Verteidigungsmodifikatoren betragen jeweils -14. Wenn eine MInigun für Sperrfeuer verwendet wird, feuert sie 30 statt der üblichen 20 Kugeln ab. DIe Regeln für Sperrfeuer ändern sich nicht, abgesehen davon, dass ein Charakter, der vom Sperrfeuer einer Minigun getroffen wird, den 1,5-fachen Grundschaden der Waffe (aufgerunded) erleidet."
In short: Miniguns have a FA burst with 15 instead of 10 bullets causing -14 recoil and -14 to defense. Suppressive fire works as normal but causes 1.5x damage with a hit.
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Awesome, so they essentially just took the SR4 Arsenal rules. NICE!
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Hey Jack can you translate the entries?
I'd love to add them to our campaign as houserules.
thanks!
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Nothing to translate there really. Its just "HVAR have special barrels and ammunition to support the high ROF", then the bits he put there in english, but with long words.
Jack made one little error there though.
The HVAR fires 6/8 (normal/complex) Bullets in Burst Fire, and 9/12 in Full-Auto mode.
The 1,5x base damage of the Vindicator is pretty gruesome.
Supressive Fire with 15P -4AP and no need to care for Recoil compensation is absolutely brutal and something not even a superdodge-Adept wants to face.
To bad its 24F :(
Not sure about the viability of the HVAR. The Burst Fire mode is nice, but the one additional bullet is not THAT critical.
Compensating for the 8 Recoil of a normal Salvo in Full-Auto Mode seems also a bit difficult, due to the incompatibility of the HVAR for any barrel mods.
So no Gas-Vent, foregrip and electronic firing.
Cyberarm-Gyromount seems like the only viable option for Runners who aren't trolls or strength-maxer.
Damage is also a bit low for an Assault Rifle and the lack of AP doesn't help either.
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That's what makes the Vindicator worth it, though. As is in the English edition, it's barely worth the hassle unless you're carrying it. For vehicle mounted weapons, you're better off with a HMG because of the higher base DV. But with these rules, high velocity weapons actually make sense, so I'm glad the German writers brought them back.
Incidentally, that's pretty close to what the community ended up adopting as per the post earlier in this thread.
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Yamaha Raiden. Unless the character is skilled with heavy weapons, in that case Ares Alpha.