Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Raiderjoseph on <01-05-16/1647:05>
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Why cant you ever trust them? Its kinda weird... whats the deal? Whats the precedent?
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Are you talking about things said in some of the books? On the boards?
Also note that there are
- "just elves" (all meta-humans of the elven persuasion)
- elves associated with the (frequently insular and arrogant) elven nations, which may lead some to think of elven conspiracies
- a handful of immortal elves, some of whom have been around for many thousand years, and are basically like dragons in meta-human bodies when it comes to how you should probably view them.
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Are you talking about things said in some of the books? On the boards?
Also note that there are
- "just elves" (all meta-humans of the elven persuasion)
- elves associated with the (frequently insular and arrogant) elven nations, which may lead some to think of elven conspiracies
- a handful of immortal elves, some of whom have been around for many thousand years, and are basically like dragons in meta-human bodies when it comes to how you should probably view them.
All of the above?... give my any and all applicatable answers please.
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Hate elves?
I LOVE elves.
Butter basted and cooked over a low heat for several hours, the meat just sliiiiiiiiides off the bone.
Oh you mean in social settings?
*ahem*
I don't think it's a matter of everyone hating all elves, though there are certainly groups out there with an ax to grind with the treehugger bridgade.
Rather you have to look at a series of situations that accumulate for the mistrust.
Elves are the pretty poster child for metahumanity. They get born as elves, they never had that awkward goblinization that orcs and trolls got in the early days and are generally well accepted, if not held a bit in awe by many still despite them being around for a while now.
The rest don't get the same respect.
While dwarves have no real strikes against them, their smaller stature tends to have people relegate to a lower status or just overlooked in general.
Orcs and Trolls are perceived to be big and brutish, considered not too bright regardless of their achievements.
They rarely goblinize anymore but due to the appearances and preconceptions by many folk they are usually treated as second class or lower as knee jerk reaction.
It doesn't help that some elves try to play it that they actually are superior and some can be real dicks about it.
But again this is not common to all elves and there are some Orc or Troll groups with similar attitudes, but they are tiny in comparison and usually are relegated to ganger levels of operations unless you make a trip across the Pond to the Old Country to check out some of the Troll kingdoms, while the elves with this sort of attitude hold two countries of their own, the Tirs and their gang of the Ancients serve some of those powers.
Elves also get a lot longer lifespan, a bitter counterpoint to the shorter lived orcs.
Now it is rare for any runner to die of old age, but some will still resent what it represents.
Then you have the Immortal Elves which is a whole basket of woes unto itself.
They are a plot device and a well used one, but it can grind some people's gears to think they are being pushed around as pawns.
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Yeah, a lot of what Sendaz said, but also...
Elves are innately 'nice' in demeanor. Mechanics-wise, this is shown by starting with 3 and having a max of 8. If you're running the shadows, that means a good modus operandi is nobody is nice, especially if they try to come across that way, and elves can do that subconsciously. If the game were a 30s Noir setting, it'd be about dames with long legs or something.
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These seem good. I was wondering why.
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And from a player base perspective, elves get higher stats in two traits that are used by many key skills, which the other metas don't. Which results in a lot of characters being elf for the extra die or two, I suspect. So they can be a bit of a stereotype "Oh, what a surprise, another elf shaman with a charisma of 8"
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The only Elf with a Charisma-affiliated tradition I have at hand to play is pretty much a good example of why you should never trust an elf. He's near Haze-level.
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The only Elf with a Charisma-affiliated tradition I have at hand to play is pretty much a good example of why you should never trust an elf. He's near Haze-level.
Who or what is Haze?
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Haze is a Street Legend NPC (found in Street Legends, pg 26) on Jackpoint who has been accused of using mind control type spells in some pretty messed up ways that if your players tried pulling the same stuff they would earn such an rep/noteriety that nobody would hire him and they would be pretty much Kill on sight with most everyone.
But because he is a Jackpointer and the first rule of JP is generally don't judge one other(the second being don't use JP to jack each other), afterall they all have some skeleton or another in their own respective closets, he is still walking around and breathing just fine.
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Some of the things Haze did (not all, but some) were while under the influence of Tempo, an Awakened drug that really messes your head. My character wouldn't have that excuse. He's being saved for a dark, gritty game.
I disagree with him being kill on sight to everyone, but definitely for anyone whose life he messes up. Megacorporations aren't going to care, for one (less morals in their pawns, more use they can wrangle out of them). The less scrupulous in the shadows probably wouldn't care overly much either.
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Some of the things Haze did (not all, but some) were while under the influence of Tempo, an Awakened drug that really messes your head. My character wouldn't have that excuse. He's being saved for a dark, gritty game.
I disagree with him being kill on sight to everyone, but definitely for anyone whose life he messes up. Megacorporations aren't going to care, for one (less morals in their pawns, more use they can wrangle out of them). The less scrupulous in the shadows probably wouldn't care overly much either.
Gotcha.
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I never said Haze was KOS, I said if your players did what he was doing they would get the KOS order at most tables, because that is the threat a lot of GMs use to keep Mind Control magic usage in check or they have the Gentlemen's agreement to limit it where if it gets used to much the GM will reply in kind using MC on the players and things tend to get real ugly real fast then.
MC has always been a touchy subject.
Shoot someone in the chest. Fine, they walk it off.
Take control of their mind to make them do the macarena and they will hunt you down to the ends of the earth. :P
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That is a good point. It's why I've never played the guy; it'd take a particular kind of game, with everyone agreeing beforehand that we aren't playing nice, to make him viable. Otherwise my innate niceness would tone him down, or there'd be problems.
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Haze is a Street Legend NPC (found in Street Legends, pg 26) on Jackpoint who has been accused of using mind control type spells in some pretty messed up ways that if your players tried pulling the same stuff they would earn such an rep/noteriety that nobody would hire him and they would be pretty much Kill on sight with most everyone.
But because he is a Jackpointer and the first rule of JP is generally don't judge one other(the second being don't use JP to jack each other), afterall they all have some skeleton or another in their own respective closets, he is still walking around and breathing just fine.
The third rule being rules one and two should not apply in respect to Clockwork (even though they apparently still do), because he's broken them?
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Haze is a Street Legend NPC (found in Street Legends, pg 26) on Jackpoint who has been accused of using mind control type spells in some pretty messed up ways that if your players tried pulling the same stuff they would earn such an rep/noteriety that nobody would hire him and they would be pretty much Kill on sight with most everyone.
But because he is a Jackpointer and the first rule of JP is generally don't judge one other(the second being don't use JP to jack each other), afterall they all have some skeleton or another in their own respective closets, he is still walking around and breathing just fine.
The third rule being rules one and two should not apply in respect to Clockwork (even though they apparently still do), because he's broken them?
Isnt Clockwork the guy who tried to have that Techomancer chick geeked?
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Nah, he's only tried to sell NetCat to the Megacorporations (NeoNet, if I remember right, or maybe Mitsuhama) what, twice now? Or was it three times? No biggie, right? Not to mention the repeated threats to kidnap and sell her infant son recently, and creeper comments that suggest he's been spying on their family... Clockwork is totally not culpable...
I honestly don't get why they let the swarthy git keep on walking at this point.
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I honestly don't get why they let the swarthy git keep on walking at this point.
Neither do most of them, but he was invited/recruited by someone (Fastjack?) they don't want to disrespect.
But when the day comes they change their mind, Slamm-O! (among others) are willing to go to town on him without stopping to turn off the soykaf machine on their way out the door.
*cue the flatvid advert, "I wish this day could last forever..."*
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Haze is a Street Legend NPC (found in Street Legends, pg 26) on Jackpoint who has been accused of using mind control type spells in some pretty messed up ways that if your players tried pulling the same stuff they would earn such an rep/noteriety that nobody would hire him and they would be pretty much Kill on sight with most everyone.
But because he is a Jackpointer and the first rule of JP is generally don't judge one other(the second being don't use JP to jack each other), afterall they all have some skeleton or another in their own respective closets, he is still walking around and breathing just fine.
The third rule being rules one and two should not apply in respect to Clockwork (even though they apparently still do), because he's broken them?
Well Rule one has always been more a guideline anyway and in the case of rule two, technically Clockwork did not violate rule two. According to CW all his actions vs Netcat took place outside JP, including any online coordination out of respect to FJ.
But yeah when he made the comment about the kid, it just shows there is a serious disconnect somewhere.
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So the 'never trust an elf' thing came from one of the early novels. But the sentiment behind it is easy to figure out. Elves are the 'beautiful people', same as the glitterati and other sorts today. A pretty face can open a helluvalot of doors, especially when you combine the fact that many elves work their way into wealth and influence (and don't get me started on the ones that have been hanging around since the last age of magic). Pretty people get a better break than ugly people in 90% of situations. You know it. I know it. We might not like it, but that's chip truth. And let's be honest, we resent the pretty people for having those breaks, not the least because we wish, on some level, we were them, no matter what we say. And when the pretty people get it in their head that they DESERVE more, just because they're pretty, that pisses some people off. When they have the ability to make it happen, that's even worse. And on top of it all, they have a life span conservatively estimated at several centuries, and will look pretty for damn near all of that time, well, that's just kicking them when they're down.
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Haze is a Street Legend NPC (found in Street Legends, pg 26) on Jackpoint who has been accused of using mind control type spells in some pretty messed up ways that if your players tried pulling the same stuff they would earn such an rep/noteriety that nobody would hire him and they would be pretty much Kill on sight with most everyone.
But because he is a Jackpointer and the first rule of JP is generally don't judge one other(the second being don't use JP to jack each other), afterall they all have some skeleton or another in their own respective closets, he is still walking around and breathing just fine.
The third rule being rules one and two should not apply in respect to Clockwork (even though they apparently still do), because he's broken them?
Well Rule one has always been more a guideline anyway and in the case of rule two, technically Clockwork did not violate rule two. According to CW all his actions vs Netcat took place outside JP, including any online coordination out of respect to FJ.
But yeah when he made the comment about the kid, it just shows there is a serious disconnect somewhere.
Both my characters would geek him without hesitation if they found out he made a comment like that. Even if it wasnt aimed at them. :/ But I guess they couldnt join Jackpoint then.
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As Mirikon said the expression comes from the shadowrun novel "Never trust an Elf" by Robert Charette, where the main character ( an Ork named Kham ) gets involved in some nasty power struggles.
Also given the fact, as have already been mentioned by several people, elves have that nice charisma boost, which properly Means that there are quite a few elven Mr. Johnsons..etc. So it's not inconceivable that quite a few runners have tried to be screwed over by the smiling elf in the nice suit with the toothpaste perfect smile.
That being said you should absolutely always trust an elf, they really are very trustworthy and quite nice to be around and anything said to the contrary is of course just malicious smear campaigns by people, WHO are too lazy to go out and get the nicer Things in life for themselves and therefore resents those that have worked hard to get where they are ;)
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As Mirikon said the expression comes from the shadowrun novel "Never trust an Elf" by Robert Charette, where the main character ( an Ork named Kham ) gets involved in some nasty power struggles.
Also given the fact, as have already been mentioned by several people, elves have that nice charisma boost, which properly Means that there are quite a few elven Mr. Johnsons..etc. So it's not inconceivable that quite a few runners have tried to be screwed over by the smiling elf in the nice suit with the toothpaste perfect smile.
That being said you should absolutely always trust an elf, they really are very trustworthy and quite nice to be around and anything said to the contrary is of course just malicious smear campaigns by people, WHO are too lazy to go out and get the nicer Things in life for themselves and therefore resents those that have worked hard to get where they are ;)
Found the elf.
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I might have missed something, since I just kinda skimmed this, but if you're referring to the hate throughout the game...it started as a Tolkien reference. In Middle-Earth, the dwarves typically distrust the elves. Since Tolkien also exists in the Sixth World, it seems like somebody took it to heart and started using it.
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I might have missed something, since I just kinda skimmed this, but if you're referring to the hate throughout the game...it started as a Tolkien reference. In Middle-Earth, the dwarves typically distrust the elves. Since Tolkien also exists in the Sixth World, it seems like somebody took it to heart and started using it.
They must have never read the ending to the hobbit where everyone in the west became friends.(or goodwill between them.)
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Or they chose to ignore it for the sake of the joke.... (I know the guys who wrote that stuff; they've read the books. :) )
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Wonder if they read the Serrated Edge series (http://www.google.co.uk/#q=serrated+edge+series) by Mercedes Lackey & Co.
Very 90s elves with fast cars and faster magic.
The fact they all had severe allery to iron did make it interesting, though they did do wonders with aluminium, even making foamed aluminium to make lightweight but sturdy engine blocks and frames for their rides.
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Wonder if they read the Serrated Edge series (http://www.google.co.uk/#q=serrated+edge+series) by Mercedes Lackey & Co.
Very 90s elves with fast cars and faster magic.
The fact they all had severe allery to iron did make it interesting, though they did do wonders with aluminium, even making foamed aluminium to make lightweight but sturdy engine blocks and frames for their rides.
Why am I not surprised someone posting here has read that series?
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I might have missed something, since I just kinda skimmed this, but if you're referring to the hate throughout the game...it started as a Tolkien reference. In Middle-Earth, the dwarves typically distrust the elves. Since Tolkien also exists in the Sixth World, it seems like somebody took it to heart and started using it.
I'd say Patrick is in the know on this & was thinking the same thing.
Beyond that reason, while much of the other stuff mentioned is interesting, I'm not sure it really relates to "trusting" an Elf.
For me it comes down to the following.
1. Elves outlive everyone else.
2. Elves "Look" Superior (that charisma thing)
3. When you "Look" Superior, you might start to "Feel" Superior.
4. When you "Feel" Superior you might start to "Think you Are" Superior.
5. When you think your superior to everyone around you, AND, your going to outlive them all with your Longevity, you might start to think other people don't matter.
6. When you don't give a crap about everyone else around you, your not very trustworthy to them ;)
Lets face it, are You going to trust that stuck up jerk when your life is on the line...........Newp.
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Also the early history of the awakening must have something to do with it. The way that Tir Tairngire and Tir na Nog basically almost springs into existence overnight with a readily supplied culture, a language of their own and even their own Unique magical tradition ( in TNN atleast ) must have left a lot of people thinking "Hmm, these Guys know something...and they aren't sharing it with the rest of us". And Ehrans speech to the Young Elven Technologists probably didn't help that perception http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Humans_and_the_Cycle_of_Magic.
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Shadowrun predates the SERRAted Edge stuff by three years.
And it's mostly because elves are the pretty people - pretty attractive, pretty arrogant, pretty long-living, pretty much an asshole. When Mr. 'I'm going to live 300 years' screws you over for a power struggle that's been going on since before you were born, and he simply doesn't deign to inform you he's getting you tangled up in it, it's very easy to distrust him. It's the same reason why you never cut a deal with a dragon.
Understand, though, that this mostly applies to those who walk into the room with the attitude of 'I'm the greatest thing here since water was invented' - you know, your pornomancers. If I had a player who was going full-bore Pornomancer, I'm pretty sure I'd make every non-elf (and a few of the more 'normal' elves too) interaction start out as a hostile interview after the first two or three times, excluding a few of the 'ooo, elves are sooooo wonderful' fantasy-on-the-brain idiots. I know Suki would sit calmly through his smarm, stand up, and put two through his brainpan ... and certainly wouldn't approve of working with such a shit.