Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: haiiro_okami on <01-16-16/0932:09>
-
Run and Gun lists pricing and availability for an underbarrel grenade launcher mod, but what I can't seem to find no matter how hard I look (I even poked through the errata) is the actual stats of the modification. Can anyone help with this? Looking to mount an MMG on a drone and I figured an underbarrel grenade launcher would give me some flexibility.
-
Stat for this doesn't actually exist (yet) as far as I'm aware. As a GM, I'd just use the AK-98 or similar for stats.
-
Ouch....the AK-98's grenade launcher kinda sucks.... (though Marcos has a point, doesn't really matter that much if you're using nonlethal chemicals)
-
I believe this kind of setup (underbarrell GLs) are now verbotim on drones according to Rigger 5.0.
their ok if put into their weapon mounts,
-
Verbotim?
German for Forbidden is Verboten. And you can add an underbarrel weapon to a drone weapon. Nothing prohibits this.
-
Verbatim... Verboten...
Same thing, only not. =)
I'm not sure why adding an Underbarrel accessory to a drone mounted weapon would be prohibited, except that now you're using up an extra Autosoft to cover the grenade launcher.
Keep in mind, when a player wields an Ares Alpha, they have to use both the Automatics and the Heavy Weapons skills. So the drone would need an Autosoft for the rifle aspect, and another for the grenade aspect.
-
Keep in mind, when a player wields an Ares Alpha, they have to use both the Automatics and the Heavy Weapons skills. So the drone would need an Autosoft for the rifle aspect, and another for the grenade aspect.
[Weapon] Targeting: This is the Gunnery skill, but for a weapon of a specific model.
Note that it doesn't say 'weapon of a specific model and skill'. The skill is Gunnery.
Gunnery is used when firing any vehicle-mounted weapon, regardless of how or where the weapon is mounted.
Targeting: Ares Alpha asks no questions, so long as you're firing the Ares Alpha. Targeting: HK XM30 is not six different autosofts.
-
And that's why the XM30 is such a great weapons platform for a drone ;)
-
I suppose it's up to you guys at your tables, but that just doesn't make much sense in my head.
Drones are dumb. They cannot attempt to fire a weapon untrained. They MUST have the correct Autosoft for THAT specific weapon. You can't give them the Automatics Autosoft and let them fire any random assault rifle. You can't even give them the AK-97 Autosoft, and expect it to work if you swap out the mount for an Ares Alpha instead. So that tells me that the Autosofts are VERY specific programming about precisely how that weapon functions.
When your Street Sam picks up an Ares Alpha, he's going to need the Automatics skill and the Heavy Weapons skill. If he tries to point the rifle straight at the target, and fire a grenade, he's going to miss. That's where Heavy Weapon training would tell him to shoot for a parabolic arc instead.
Now you hand that same Street Sam a duffel bag full of HK XM30 parts, and he's going to need Automatics (Assault Rifle Carbine), Longarms (Sniper and Shotgun), and Heavy Weapons (LMG and Grenade). 3x skills for 5x different weapon configurations.
But you're telling me that you expect a single Autosoft to cover all those variations? If that's how you run it at your table, then heck yeah the XM30 is the best choice. You get 5x different modular functions for the price of a single Autosoft.
-
But you're telling me that you expect a single Autosoft to cover all those variations?
When it's limited to that weapon, on that drone, with a dice pool that might not be able to reach double digits, because autosoft rating can't pass pilot rating, and pilot rating is listed under attribute modifications? (limited to *2 modification)
Yeah! I do believe the software to operate a firearm is complete for that firearm.
I also believe a maneuver autosoft can (attempt to) handle all vehicle tests and terrain modifiers. It's not that impressive.
-
I'm with Marcus Gideon on this one.
Drone autosofts are very specialized, the UB GL is a separate weapon requiring a separate autosoft.
Same for the HK xm30, different configurations would require different autosofts because the weapon performs differently.
Its one of those oversights/ exploits/ loopholes that you can either take advantage of or realizes that it's not RAI.
-
Its one of those oversights/ exploits/ loopholes that you can either take advantage of or realizes that it's not RAI.
That's your opinion; you've got no way of knowing what the writers intended. I think they intended for one Targeting autosoft to cover one weapon; if that weapon comes with an underbarrel grenade launcher, like the Ares Alpha, then I believe an Ares Alpha Targeting autosoft covers both the AR and the grenade launcher.
Drones don't use Automatics or Heavy Weapons skills, they use Gunnery which is represented by the Targeting autosoft for one specific weapon. For some reason, the writers decided to let Gunnery apply to everything you can possibly install in a weapon mount, from holdouts to assault cannons to missile launchers and lasers. Make of that what you want, and as always, check with your GM because RAW isn't conclusive so each table has to interpret the rules for themselves.
-
I'm with Marcus Gideon on this one.
Drone autosofts are very specialized, the UB GL is a separate weapon requiring a separate autosoft.
Same for the HK xm30, different configurations would require different autosofts because the weapon performs differently.
Its one of those oversights/ exploits/ loopholes that you can either take advantage of or realizes that it's not RAI.
Except for Ares Alpha and AK98
-
Well the point that Marcus was trying to make, I believe, was that because you need an autosoft for specific weapon (ak-98, ares alpha etc) that is due to the different performance and ballistic specifics of each weapon.
So an Ares Alpha has different ballistic performance from an AK-98 even though they are both assault rifles, hence the need for an ak-98 autosoft and an ares alpha autosoft.
If you accept this (and don't houserule that there is an Gunnery autosoft) then it would make sense that the GL is also a different weapon and that the many variations possible with the HK weapon system would each require a different autosoft for the various different configurations because the HK sniper rifle ballistics are far different from the HK smg ballistics.
However it is a grey area, so it would be up to your GM, no doubt.
-
Well the point that Marcus was trying to make, I believe, was that because you need an autosoft for specific weapon (ak-98, ares alpha etc) that is due to the different performance and ballistic specifics of each weapon.
So an Ares Alpha has different ballistic performance from an AK-98 even though they are both assault rifles, hence the need for an ak-98 autosoft and an ares alpha autosoft.
If you accept this (and don't houserule that there is an Gunnery autosoft) then it would make sense that the GL is also a different weapon and that the many variations possible with the HK weapon system would each require a different autosoft for the various different configurations because the HK sniper rifle ballistics are far different from the HK smg ballistics.
However it is a grey area, so it would be up to your GM, no doubt.
Precisely. The game mechanics made skills somewhat generic to save characters from spending so much Karma on niche skills. But that doesn't mean it's going to translate into computer programming as easily.
If there were a single Gunnery Autosoft that allowed the drone to fire any mounted weapon, that would make sense. Since they seem to think that a straight line laser, or a arcing mortar, or a dummy fire rocket, all deserve a single skill for the Rigger to train.
If there were a single Automatics Autosoft that allowed the drone to fire any Machine Pistol, SMG, or Assault Rifle, that would make sense. Since they seem to think that anything capable of firing more than one round at a time all deserve a single skill for characters in general to train.
But... they have made it very clear that you cannot use the AK-97 Autosoft when you fit an AK-98 instead. Even though it's the exact same rifle, just with a grenade launcher attached, the Autosoft won't work. Maybe that's b/c of the different balance in the weapon, or maybe it is b/c they included extra programming for the grenade launcher.
However, everything else about Autosofts makes me believe they are painfully specific in regards to form and function. And like Adzling said, everything about how you hold, point, and shoot a rifle is different from a grenade launcher. If characters are expected to train 2x skills to make full use of the rifle, then it's fair to say you're required to load 2x Autosofts for the same benefit.
-
I think the AK-97/AK-98 is a perfect example. The only thing differentiating these is the Underbarrel Grenade Launcher. So if the AK-97 Targeting Autosoft doesn't work with the AK-98 weapon, then I'd say it's a safe bet that's because the AK-98 Targeting autosoft includes the necessary software to fire both the rifle and the grenade launcher.
This is all beside the point that playing a rigger is already ludicrously expensive by RAW, and yet some people want to raise that bar even higher...
In any case, like I said; GM/table call. RAW to my mind leans towards the "one weapon per autosoft", with "weapon" including attachments like grenade launchers, shotguns, and flamers.
-
In any case, like I said; GM/table call. RAW to my mind leans towards the "one weapon per autosoft", with "weapon" including attachments like grenade launchers, shotguns, and flamers.
I almost agree with this... with the qualification that the attachment is stock... n9thing after-market.
As for mounting a dual system weapon that's a whole other can of worms.
-
AK you can have a case for buying two autosofts alpha since it's already smart gun installed you should be able to do it with one
-
I think the AK-97/AK-98 is a perfect example. The only thing differentiating these is the Underbarrel Grenade Launcher. So if the AK-97 Targeting Autosoft doesn't work with the AK-98 weapon, then I'd say it's a safe bet that's because the AK-98 Targeting autosoft includes the necessary software to fire both the rifle and the grenade launcher.
This is all beside the point that playing a rigger is already ludicrously expensive by RAW, and yet some people want to raise that bar even higher...
In any case, like I said; GM/table call. RAW to my mind leans towards the "one weapon per autosoft", with "weapon" including attachments like grenade launchers, shotguns, and flamers.
Many riggers focus way too much on have six billion about to be destroyed drones that they will order around without jumping into. Yup, they're gonna get wrecked. You take a big financial investment and then let a dog brain(or small child if you have one of those elite rating 6 pilots) run it. You don't need to be a rigger to do that. The good part of being a rigger is that it's insanely easy to get 20+ dice to a defense test and you run on matrix initiative.
Defend your investment rather than loosing ¥ every run.
-
Or dont be a rigger unless its 4th or 3rd edition where they had half way decent rules
-
ScytheKnight
Good point, I'd agree with the stipulation that it'd have to be a stock weapon.
Which does bring up the question of how do you get a drone to use a modified weapon?
Honestly, at this point I'm considering houseruling autosofts to be generic so that riggers can just pick up an Targeting: Automatics autosoft if they want to. Simplifies the unnecessarily (in my opinion) complex drone-only skill issues, and does away with situations like this. If you wanted to use an Ares Alpha to it's full potential you'd have to get both an Automatics and a Heavy Weapons Autosoft, but this would also give you the ability to use any automatic or heavy weapon available.
*shrugs*
I honestly like that better.
ZombieAcePilot
Point of contention: a Rating 6 pilot is as intuitive and reactive as the very best of unmodified humans. I hardly think "a small child" is an apt analogy.
And second, how do you get 20+ dice on defense tests? These are not actions so you don't get RCC and hot-sim bonuses, which means you'd need a combined REA + INT of 14+ before full defense. Without full defense you're looking at 10 each for Reaction and Intuition just to get to 20.
Finally, by claiming that riggers shouldn't be running their drones on autopilot you are effectively removing a whole archetype. There are riggers who jump into their drones, and there are those who don't. Rigger 5.0 specifically describes both, and telling players that they shouldn't use autopilot to avoid losing money is, in my opinion, a terrible way of dealing with the inherent flaw of game balance where one poor dice roll for a drone rigger means thousands or even tens of thousands of nuyen gone forever.
I've said it before and I'll say it again; under the core (and Rigger 5.0) rules, I don't see riggers as being a viable archetype because they are too resource intensive for what they can do. Magicians and B&E types can more or fill the same roles on a team for much less risk of monetary loss if using the rules as written. And this is why my house rules for rigging is a couple pages long...
-
ZombieAcePilot
Point of contention: a Rating 6 pilot is as intuitive and reactive as the very best of unmodified humans. I hardly think "a small child" is an apt analogy.
And second, how do you get 20+ dice on defense tests? These are not actions so you don't get RCC and hot-sim bonuses, which means you'd need a combined REA + INT of 14+ before full defense. Without full defense you're looking at 10 each for Reaction and Intuition just to get to 20.
Finally, by claiming that riggers shouldn't be running their drones on autopilot you are effectively removing a whole archetype. There are riggers who jump into their drones, and there are those who don't. Rigger 5.0 specifically describes both, and telling players that they shouldn't use autopilot to avoid losing money is, in my opinion, a terrible way of dealing with the inherent flaw of game balance where one poor dice roll for a drone rigger means thousands or even tens of thousands of nuyen gone forever.
I've said it before and I'll say it again; under the core (and Rigger 5.0) rules, I don't see riggers as being a viable archetype because they are too resource intensive for what they can do. Magicians and B&E types can more or fill the same roles on a team for much less risk of monetary loss if using the rules as written. And this is why my house rules for rigging is a couple pages long...
The fluff talks about them in comparison to small children as far as their ability to learn etc. that's where I got that.
Let's say you max intuition at 6 and take reflexes at 5. We can easily augment that to 7 on reaction. That brings us to 13 all the time, 19 with full defense. Throw in wired 1 or restricted gear to up those reaction enhancers to break the 20 dice mark easily. Also could have an exceptional attribute or the like.
You should be top dog on initiative, and full defense lasts you the entire turn. Not to mention you could be taking cover, using environmental factors, etc to tilt it more in your favor. There is no reason you shouldn't be neigh untouchable, the proverbial leaf upon the wind.
As far as drones that will be involved in combat (i.e. Being shot at), you should rig them. If you have other drones being used in a less dangerous capacity they might be a good candidate for letting the pilot run.
I don't disagree the rigging is hard per raw, but I don't advise you hand your GM a 10 page document of house rules either. Learn to use them well as they exist instead of being angry that they don't work like you want them to. I don't like how direct damage spells work in this edition, so I don't take them for the most part. I don't advise my GM that he should change the rules immediately though.
-
Let's say you max intuition at 6 and take reflexes at 5. We can easily augment that to 7 on reaction. That brings us to 13 all the time, 19 with full defense.
So you have INT 6, REA 5(7) and WIL 6? Nice!
-
Let's say you max intuition at 6 and take reflexes at 5. We can easily augment that to 7 on reaction. That brings us to 13 all the time, 19 with full defense.
So you have INT 6, REA 5(7) and WIL 6? Nice!
Vehicle full defense is based on Intuition.
-
Vehicle full defense is based on Intuition.
True! I didn't know that. If anyone else want to look up the rule, it's on p. 205 under "Evasive Driving".
-
I don't disagree the rigging is hard per raw, but I don't advise you hand your GM a 10 page document of house rules either. Learn to use them well as they exist instead of being angry that they don't work like you want them to.
A. I'm not angry, I just don't like the direction the writers have taken drones and riggers in this edition, and
B. I am the GM ;)
I don't agree that if the system is broken I should just "deal with it", so I'll change the system to my liking instead of dealing with "RAW". My table also doesn't play hyperspecialized characters to the point where player characters have 20+ defense dice pools so you and I just fundamentally disagree on some of these topics, and as a result I'll just call it a day where this thread is concerned.
-
ScytheKnight
Good point, I'd agree with the stipulation that it'd have to be a stock weapon.
Which does bring up the question of how do you get a drone to use a modified weapon?
Honestly, at this point I'm considering houseruling autosofts to be generic so that riggers can just pick up an Targeting: Automatics autosoft if they want to. Simplifies the unnecessarily (in my opinion) complex drone-only skill issues, and does away with situations like this. If you wanted to use an Ares Alpha to it's full potential you'd have to get both an Automatics and a Heavy Weapons Autosoft, but this would also give you the ability to use any automatic or heavy weapon available.
*shrugs*
I honestly like that better.
I agree there should also be pilot ground craft auto softs or maybe pilot motorcycle pilot car pilot truck autosofts I mean really why split hairs so much? my RCC should be able to shoot any weapon and pilot any vehicle within a general class of guns/vehicles its not like googles self driving cars are model specific pretty sure you could run it on just about any vehicle
-
My table also doesn't play hyperspecialized characters to the point where player characters have 20+ defense dice pools so you and I just fundamentally disagree on some of these topics, and as a result I'll just call it a day where this thread is concerned.
Even if we pull it back to Reaction 4(6) and Intuition 5 we would still have 11 base defense and 16 will full defense. Those stats could exist on a decent Sam or Ganger. Toss on a rating 1 control rig and grab a decent comlink and you can begin rigging. A human with C resources and D Metatype could easily accomplish these numbers while leaving open A and B for attributes and skills. Grab a Car/Van and a few drones and you are a kick ass driver/combatant. Maybe just keep it to a car and rotodrone and get a good cyberarm so you can contribute even without rigging.
-
ScytheKnight
Good point, I'd agree with the stipulation that it'd have to be a stock weapon.
Which does bring up the question of how do you get a drone to use a modified weapon?
Ummm, you don't?