Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: the_konch on <01-28-16/0028:33>
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Hello all, I'm currently attempting to build a mage character with a fair amount of bioware and some cyberware, for a campaign that starts in the near future. The backstory for this character is that he was bred to be the perfect heir to a mega corp and/or to infiltrate a mega corp and eventually gain control of it for some evil group (perhaps the Black Lodge). As such, the evil group made sure that my character would have every single advantage possible in the corporate world via 'ware and training.
I was hoping to get some advice on which 'ware would be really good for this character mechanically and/or flavorfully. Mechanically, I plan to use him as the group face and he will be the only mage in the group, so I would prefer to not lower my essence below 4. He has the prototype transhuman quality, so he has an extra essence to burn.
So far, I have:
-cerebral booster(r2)
-neuro retention amp
-platelet factories
-PuSHed
-trauma damper(r2)
-cybereyes(smart link, vision mag, vision enhance, thermo vision)
and my essence is currently 5.6
Also, how much cyberware or bioware would I need to have to make the bio-compatibility quality worth it?
Also also, I wasn't sure if this post was suppose to go into the gear forum or into the char creation, I apologize if I chose the wrong forum.
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If biocompatability is the thing that lets you stay at 5+ essence and not drop another point of magic, it is worth it.
I think that restricted gear + pain editor may be a good investment. A datajack is always good, too.
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Have you considered nanohives and Logic boosting nano? A Datajack and sleep regulator might be good too
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Biocompatibility 5 Prototype Transhuman 10
15 Karma to make sure your magic doesnt go down past 5
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So, what kind of Mage is he? Don't load up on a bunch of "extra good for sams" ware just because you can focus on stuff that improves your ability to be a Mage.
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Might recommend Damage Compensators over the Trauma Damper, May not handle wound penalties ass easily as the Damper, but without the nasty side effects.
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Biocompatibility makes all bioware or cyberware (you pick which) cost 10% less essence rounded down to the nearest tenth. As what kind of mage, I was planning on focusing mostly on manipulation and illusion spells, but I would have the standard heal and maybe a fireball.
The logic boosting nano you're referring are called neural amplifiers, right? Would anyone know where its located on the chummer character gen? I'm having trouble finding them.
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If you want to be primarily a face you should consider a bioware-adept.
They make the best faces.
If you only want to be a part-time face your choice as a mage could make sense.
FYI don't forget Way of the Burnout, which gives you alpha grade cyber and bio for the cost of Standard ware.
it costs 15 karma at character generation so you may not be able to fit in.
However if you are planning on max'ing out ware then Prototype Transhuman + Way of the Burnout (25 karma total) would be a lot better than bioware compatibility + Proto Transhuman.
Another option would be to take bioware compatibility and proto transhuman then post-chargen take way of the burnout.
It won't affect the essence cost of the ware you installed during chargen however.
So for max ware with minimal essence lost go Way of the Burnout and Proto Trans.
If you did this with the ware you note your essence would be 5.76 + you would have only used 0.72 of your free essence point for Transhuman.
I would suggest ditching the cyber-eyes all together so your essence remains at 6 and utilize the remaining 0.28 free essence from Transhuman.
Or if you have more money load up on a point more of stuff.
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Having the only Mage be a burnout is maybe not the best idea.
So my question is if your character is magic why this evil group would push a ton of non-PT ware. In setting its known that ware affects your ability to work magic.
If you want to be a face then I would just not worry about having Sam style ware or LOG focused ware. Remember that SR is a team game. You come across a little like you want to be good at everything and in this system the result is being mediocre at everything.
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Well the Way of the Burnout does not affect anything other than discounting your ware's essence cost so it's not an issue in any way other than the label ;-)
I do agree with Whiskey's comments re: your choice of 'ware, they are not suitable for face work.
But the Cerebral boosters would help if you are a Hermetic Mage (or other Logic based tradition).
I also agree with Whiskey's comments re: focus on your main role and perhaps a secondary role.
Do NOT try to do everything.
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Do NOT try to do everything.
Unless your tradition has Task Spirits and Guardian Spirits and you're a Possession Tradition.
<.< >.>
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hehe one of the reasons we ban possession traditions at our table ;-)
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If you want to be primarily a face you should consider a bioware-adept.
They make the best faces.
I know you like how your adept is working but read this:
Mechanically, I plan to use him as the group face and he will be the only mage in the group
And possession is inferior to materialisation. ;)
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I'm playing an Aztec MysAd face and it's a blast. The Aztec spirits are amazing.
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For what it's worth, I am playing a hermetic mage, so all the logic boosting is pretty helpful. As for trying to be good at everything, that's really more a side effect. I am trying to focus on just being a face and a manipulation mage, are those two things too big to be focused on together? Is there anything that boosts the charisma stat the same way cerebral booster boosts logic? If so, I can go all in to charisma instead of splitting between the two.
Despite the name sake of this thread, the 'ware is more favor than anything else, I have no problem dropping all the sam 'ware for pure flavor and utility 'ware.
That being said, I do like the Burnout's way, but it says I have to be an Adept, so I'm afraid I'll have to cross it out, unless I can build a Mystic Adept in a way that it can substitute for a mage, to an extent. Tell me more about this Aztec Mystic Adept.
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That being said, I do like the Burnout's way, but it says I have to be an Adept, so I'm afraid I'll have to cross it out, unless I can build a Mystic Adept in a way that it can substitute for a mage, to an extent. Tell me more about this Aztec Mystic Adept.
Mystic Adept is basically a mage who can also spend karma on power points for Adept powers and can't astrally project.
Build as mage, spend 30 karma on power points, boom, instant Mystic Adept covering most of your mage things. For astral scouting, just use spirits/watchers.
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Hang on I don't think the burnouts way is restricted to adepts only, is it?!?
Doh!
Scratch that.
<beats head against wall>
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Hang on I don't think the burnouts way is restricted to adepts only, is it?!?
Ways are adept only.
NEW ADEPT QUALITIES: WAYS
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So the only ways to ramp Charisma are:
1). be an Elf.
2). get the Tailored Pheromones ware (does not boost Cha directly).
3). take a Positive Quality such as First Impression
4). do Adept and take Cool Resolve and or Authoritative Tone.
5). Cast and sustain Increase Attribute spell.
As much as I *hate* mystic adepts for balance reasons (we ban them at our table) the suggestion to Mystic Adept would open up the Burnout's way for you AND even allow you access to the good adept face powers (like Commanding Voice and the ones I mention above as well as other).
Is there anything that boosts the charisma stat the same way cerebral booster boosts logic? If so, I can go all in to charisma instead of splitting between the two.
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Trying to be a hermetic face is already setting yourself up for a degree of failure, unfortunately. SR is a MAD game as it is with certain stats being easier to dump (due to fringe utility) or having little usefulness overlap. LOG and CHA are two of those. The result is spreading limited resources too think and risking being unable to perform even in your specialist niche(s).
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Yeah you're better off taking Path of the Wheel or another Charisma based tradition (like Shaman).
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I wonder if Technomancer is the better model for Drain stats. It includes Resonance. So maybe instead of Willpower + Drain Attribute, we could do Magic + Drain Attribute and add Willpower-based traditions.
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Well, shifting over into mystic adept didn't change anything except give me access to fancy adept powers and ways, so I can totally get folks banning mystic adept. I've also shifted everything into charisma.
Regardless, now with burner's way and transhuman I have even more essence to burn, so lets get back to 'ware ideas. I'm tempted to keep all the logic boosting bioware if only because I have so much space left, maybe I can help our decker with stuff. Would the whole skillwire setup be worth it? Perhaps I should get all the niche bioware like toxin extractor?
Side question, should I use my power points to max out the commanding tone and cool resolve powers, or are there some other vital powers that every mystic adapt should have, like heal on a mage?
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Commanding Voice is not ranked.
Honestly...my MysAd throws face dice pools of like 16-18+, with no Tailored Pheromones, and no adept powers related to facing. You can easily overcommit resources needlessly to that. I'd say Cool Resolve is unnecessary to start with, and too expensive compared to Authoritative Tone. You may as well also get Heightened Concern to help sustain spells. .
You have Improved Reflexes 2, yes? Pick up Commanding Voice, some Combat Sense (one is good; I have more and have never regretted it on top of Too Pretty To Hit), get Astral Perception in tattoo qi focus.
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Hang on I don't think the burnouts way is restricted to adepts only, is it?!?
Ways are adept only.
NEW ADEPT QUALITIES: WAYS
What about the Magican's Way? The wording on the first line also insinuates that Mystic Adepts can choose other ways as it is "one of the most popular Ways for mystic adepts" . That means mystic adepts can choose other ways, yea? Was there an offical errata that prohibits this?
Burnout's way can be used effectively after char gen, but only if you have lost 2 points of magic and only if it is standard 'ware. 2 points of magic could mean you have only lost 1.2 essence, so if you have magic 4 before hand it would essentially bring you back to magic 5. It does not work on any 'ware installed after you get the quality, and after char gen it would cost 30 karma.
Nice thing about biocompatibility is that it stacks with grade.
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A Mystic Adept is an Adept. It says Adept in the name.
Technically speaking, I'm pretty sure the Magician's Way is the only way that a Mystic Adept can do non-Adept Metamagics:
Unlike their physical counterparts, mystic adepts following this Way have access to all non-adept metamagic abilities for which they meet the prerequisites. And because they do not specialize as much as other adepts (and do not receive a bonus besides the discount on Power Point cost), followers of this Way are able to choose any power they want for the discount, with the exception of Improved Reflexes.
Mystic Adepts are more accurately spellcasting/summoning/enchanting Adepts than they are Mages with Adept powers. As such, they have to invest 20 karma in the Magician's Way to even get access to Quickening and all the fun Mage metamagics.
I'm pretty sure no one plays it this way, but I'm fairly certain it's the RAW way to do it.
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I'm pretty sure no one plays it this way, but I'm fairly certain it's the RAW way to do it.
Nobody plays it this way because it's a great example of how NOT to do errata you think needs to be done (i.e., buried in the worst sourcebook in the line by far, and also monstrously unclear).
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FYI the discount from Way of the Burnout applies to ware installed AFTER you took the way, not before....
Also there are two ways to get the Way of the Burnout post chargen:
1). lose 2 points of essence from installing augmentations (no karma cost for way)
2). Pay 20 karma (normal cost for a Way, FYI ways DO NOT cost double post chargen. They are not "true" qualities per se in a similar manner to Martial Arts are not true qualities and do not cost double post chargen).
It does not work on any 'ware installed after you get the quality, and after char gen it would cost 30 karma.
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(i.e., buried in the worst sourcebook in the line by far).
I think Street Grimoire wins in a head to head with Data Trails. Data Trails has almost nothing in it that's a real game changer or brings meaningful choices to the table. At least Street Grimoire has some swank new metamagics.
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(i.e., buried in the worst sourcebook in the line by far).
I think Street Grimoire wins in a head to head with Data Trails. Data Trails has almost nothing in it that's a real game changer or brings meaningful choices to the table. At least Street Grimoire has some swank new metamagics.
The book with alchemy, which was already just "meh," then actively made alchemy worse, I'm comfortable saying it's the worst book in the line.
Thank you for reminding me that Data Trails brought us the steaming pile that is dongles though.
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No one has mentioned Sleep Regulator. With the backstory given, it seems a natural fit. It's also a GREAT piece of ware.
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yeah I love Sleep Regulator, my toon has it.
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What do you guys see as valuable about it over, say, just abusing Cram?
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Not having to sleep much is big thing sometimes but it's very situational dependent.
I hate the very poor addiction rules so our table has ditched them and gone with a very simple rule of "you can only take one drug dose every other run or your character becomes an NPC".
Bang, problem solved and no crappy book-keeping.
So at our table it is more valuable than a table that permits unfettered drug use.
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A Mystic Adept is an Adept. It says Adept in the name.
Technically speaking, I'm pretty sure the Magician's Way is the only way that a Mystic Adept can do non-Adept Metamagics:
Unlike their physical counterparts, mystic adepts following this Way have access to all non-adept metamagic abilities for which they meet the prerequisites. And because they do not specialize as much as other adepts (and do not receive a bonus besides the discount on Power Point cost), followers of this Way are able to choose any power they want for the discount, with the exception of Improved Reflexes.
Mystic Adepts are more accurately spellcasting/summoning/enchanting Adepts than they are Mages with Adept powers. As such, they have to invest 20 karma in the Magician's Way to even get access to Quickening and all the fun Mage metamagics.
I'm pretty sure no one plays it this way, but I'm fairly certain it's the RAW way to do it.
Yeah, that's what I thought. I misread context, thought you were saying the mystic adept didn't count!
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I hate the very poor addiction rules so our table has ditched them and gone with a very simple rule of "you can only take one drug dose every other run or your character becomes an NPC".
Bang, problem solved and no crappy book-keeping.
So ... basically you banned addiction as a viable character design? In a dystopian future world where one of the biggest industries is escapism of some sort because the world sucks?
That makes no sense to me, but okay!
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As a player mechanic, yes.
The rules are poor and make little sense compared to real addiction.
I've never had a player who rp'd an addiction well.
It opens up all kinds of exploit potential if you don't do a lot of book-keeping.
It doesn't add much of anything to the gameplay experience.
So yah, we basically banned addiction at our table.
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If it is mild or weak Soycaf or Alcohol I can see it being done easily, outside that, nope, no idea how.
So, while I own and enjoyed Street Grimiore (outside it horrible rules, worse book I own). I am glad my table don't use deckers. We have a contact that does decking stuff for us and we pay her. Makes everyone (players and GM happy). The reason was decking was already confusing (bad first experiance with first 5th GM had played one in 4A and thought he new how it worked) then add in the new book from which I hear might be equal to Street Grimiore in quality (blarg) and mostly useless info and I am happy I didn't buy it.
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If it is mild or weak Soycaf or Alcohol I can see it being done easily, outside that, nope, no idea how.
So, while I own and enjoyed Street Grimiore (outside it horrible rules, worse book I own). I am glad my table don't use deckers. We have a contact that does decking stuff for us and we pay her. Makes everyone (players and GM happy). The reason was decking was already confusing (bad first experiance with first 5th GM had played one in 4A and thought he new how it worked) then add in the new book from which I hear might be equal to Street Grimiore in quality (blarg) and mostly useless info and I am happy I didn't buy it.
Decking is a huge pain at our table, as well. I am the magician so I try to know all the rules about magic to help out the GM if I have to, but the decker doesn't seem to know much about his, so we wade through the rules a lot. Maybe we should kick the decker off the team and hire another tough!
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This thread is getting a little bit off topic, so I thought I would post my new set of 'ware:
-Commlink (dr 4)
-Cybereyes (vision mag, vision enhance, thermo vision, low-light vision)
-Olfactory Booster (r2)
-Voice Mimic (r3)
-Cerebellum Booster (r2)
-Hearing enhance
-Magnasense
-Neuro Retention
-Platelet Factories
-Sleep Regulator
-Tailored Pheromones (r2)
I decided to ditch the Burnout's Way, because ultimately I didn't like it flavor wise. I just spent a little extra money to turn some of my cyberware into alphaware and grabbed bio-compatibility and mentor spirit instead. I did decide to stay a mystic adept however for all the face powers.
Now I'm trying to decide what spells to get, I already got my two favorites, Imp Invisibility and Influence, plus heal, leaving me with 4 more spells to take. Perhaps I can hear some opinions on what other spells to take that would complement my current build? Maybe spirits? Or traditional gear?
I'm sorry that I'm asking so much, but since I almost never post, I thought I might as well try to squeeze out every last drop of lifeblood for this character.
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my go to wares are usually
Narco
Tetrachromatic vision
Synch
Datajack
Nephritic screen 6
Smartlink
= 1 essence
Also I consider the neocortical nanites with a used rating 3 nanohive as that gives another +3 to logic tests
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FYI turns out that Adept Ways do NOT count towards positive quality karma limit in chargen.
So you CAN take Way of the Burnout, Bio-compatibility and Protoype Transhuman during Chargen....
See here:
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=23294.0
WOW
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This thread is getting a little bit off topic, so I thought I would post my new set of 'ware:
-Commlink (dr 4)
-Cybereyes (vision mag, vision enhance, thermo vision, low-light vision)
-Olfactory Booster (r2)
-Voice Mimic (r3)
-Cerebellum Booster (r2)
-Hearing enhance
-Magnasense
-Neuro Retention
-Platelet Factories
-Sleep Regulator
-Tailored Pheromones (r2)
I'm curious! Why are you wanting to take a Commlink as Cyberware?
I've never found a reason to do so for any of my characters, if just because the moment someone bricks it I have a hunk of useless drek surgically implanted and I can't get it fixed without more surgery. I could especially see that being an issue for your character given you've got Cyber-eyes (A Decker's favorite target) and the rating of that Commlink is pretty poor for defensive purposes.
Mostly this is just a curiosity thing. I totally get grabbin' stuff for flavor and all that!
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There's a lot of notions that the commlink itself isn't permanently implanted but that you essentially have an implanted slot drive that the commlink can be inserted into.
Because yeah otherwise you could never upgrade your phone and if it's bricked once you're totally screwed and that is dumb as hell.
Even under this reading there is little incentive for an implanted commlink
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Ya think the general consensus is that its a bay inside your head to slot your commlink into not so much good for commlinks persay, but certainly useful for say cyberdecks instead of lugging that thing around or trying to get through security, cybereyes you dont really have a reason to have wireless on unless its smartlink or vision enhancement course if you have a datajack you can bypass that altogether with respect to the smartlink anyways unless you are firing remotely through a smartplatform or weapon turret, but then again thats what the datajack is for for the hardwire bypass.
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Also I firmly believe that eyes/ears as packages are generally not worth it. One of my aphorisms is "never buy with magic or essence what you can buy solely with nuyen." In this case I have never regretted eschewing eyes/ears for glasses, contacts, and earbuds. The one except is a retinal smartlink since the benefits of paying for it with essence are huge.
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Eh, its one die, thats not exactly that huge.
The only real use i see in cybereyes over external devices with the same functionality is that you can't lose them and have all packed into one single device that doesn't stand out that much.
Contacs have pretty limited capacity and glasses/visors might get lost or stand out in a place.
But yeah, if you are really short on Essence, you can do without Cybereyes without losing to much.
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true, even if you do get hacked *removes glasses like Horatio Caine then says a cool line before blasting the decker away. YEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAH
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Also I firmly believe that eyes/ears as packages are generally not worth it. One of my aphorisms is "never buy with magic or essence what you can buy solely with nuyen." In this case I have never regretted eschewing eyes/ears for glasses, contacts, and earbuds. The one except is a retinal smartlink since the benefits of paying for it with essence are huge.
Mages being an exception, but they pay double it. Hard to justify that, too.
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sure they still sell magnifying eye pieces over electronic eye pieces just for mages still
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Also I firmly believe that eyes/ears as packages are generally not worth it. One of my aphorisms is "never buy with magic or essence what you can buy solely with nuyen." In this case I have never regretted eschewing eyes/ears for glasses, contacts, and earbuds. The one except is a retinal smartlink since the benefits of paying for it with essence are huge.
Mages being an exception, but they pay double it. Hard to justify that, too.
I wouldn't bother losing the Essence for any mainline caster. Non-Essence vision mods are good enough even if they don't help your targeting.
For an adept, PT + 1 ESS of additional ware is pretty much per se better than most 1 PP combinations.
But I was speaking generally anyway. There are always exceptions.
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Even without PT, if you have the money, losing a point of essence is generally worth it.
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Even without PT, if you have the money, losing a point of essence is generally worth it.
For an adept definitely.
For a caster...it really depends.
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I'd say, even for a caster its most likely always usefull.
Paineditor, LOG/INT Boosts outweight the loss of one Magic by far, imho.
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Int Boost is super expensive, LOG boost is decent. Pain Editor - just don't get hit :P
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The pain editor isn't about not being hit or taking damage it's the ability to absorb massive amounts of stun drain, it works well with platets factories
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Optimizing drain is so easy I don't really know how worth it it is unless you plan on actually casting at high Force, which is really only relevant for indirect combat spells.
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Even small after-soak drain adds up pretty quick.
Regarding the price of the bossters:
Expensive, but worth the bucks if you can afford them.
Even more when its the Attribute of your tradition.
I also always feel as if there is very little reason to not stick at least a lvl 3 Bioware Agilitybooster in every Charakter.
This thing is so incredibly efficient, its not even funny.
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still dunno the offical ruling (running theme) on if drugs like jazz can stack with improved/wired reflexes/synaptic booster/moved by wire
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Drugs stack with everything unless there is an entry under the piece of 'ware that mentions grugs specifically.
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Drugs stack with everything unless there is an entry under the piece of 'ware that mentions grugs specifically.
But you're still subject to the Attribute Maximum of +4 and the Initiative maximum of +5d6.
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Drugs stack with everything unless there is an entry under the piece of 'ware that mentions grugs specifically.
But you're still subject to the Attribute Maximum of +4 and the Initiative maximum of +5d6.
Yeah this is a fairly new clarification IIRC.
And whether things stack depends if the ware in question calls out not stacking with augmentations or with enhancements.
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As of Chrome Flesh, so, yeah, in the last year.
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This thread is getting a little bit off topic, so I thought I would post my new set of 'ware:
-Commlink (dr 4)
-Cybereyes (vision mag, vision enhance, thermo vision, low-light vision)
-Olfactory Booster (r2)
-Voice Mimic (r3)
-Cerebellum Booster (r2)
-Hearing enhance
-Magnasense
-Neuro Retention
-Platelet Factories
-Sleep Regulator
-Tailored Pheromones (r2)
I'm curious! Why are you wanting to take a Commlink as Cyberware?
I've never found a reason to do so for any of my characters, if just because the moment someone bricks it I have a hunk of useless drek surgically implanted and I can't get it fixed without more surgery. I could especially see that being an issue for your character given you've got Cyber-eyes (A Decker's favorite target) and the rating of that Commlink is pretty poor for defensive purposes.
Mostly this is just a curiosity thing. I totally get grabbin' stuff for flavor and all that!
Yea, it's complete flavor. I read in one of the books that built-in commlinks are popular in the business world. I did upgrade its rating to 7 however. Also, I sort of ran out of other things to put in, so why not a commlink? It comes with a free sim module!!!
Currently, I'm trying to decide if I want to keep voice mimic and/or if I should add all the other voice 'ware just to have a complete set.
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Drugs stack with everything unless there is an entry under the piece of 'ware that mentions grugs specifically.
But you're still subject to the Attribute Maximum of +4 and the Initiative maximum of +5d6.
Yeah this is a fairly new clarification IIRC.
And whether things stack depends if the ware in question calls out not stacking with augmentations or with enhancements.
Ok lets do the rundown
Improve Initiative:
The maximum rating of Improved Reflexes is 3, and the increase cannot be
combined with other technological or magical increases to Initiative.
Wired reflexes:
Wired reflexes are incompatible with augmentations that affect Reaction or Initiative
Synaptic Booster:
The synaptic booster cannot be combined with
any other form of Reaction or Initiative enhancement.
Move by wire:
Move-by-wire is incompatible with any other reaction-enhancing augmentation
Boosted Reflexes:
boosted reflexes may not be removed once installed, and they are incompatible with any other
Initiative-modifying augmentation.
And we know
Incompatiblity page 421 :
wired reflexes and synaptic boosters boosters—you cannot
use the effects of both items at the same time.
So where does that leave drugs?
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II: Compatible. Drugs are not technological or magical (yes drugs are refined and some are BAD but the intent to me there is "ware or other magic," not a drug that happens to be a BAD).
WR: compatible. Drugs are not an augmentation (which has historically been a term of art referencing ware).
SB: Incompatible. Drugs are an enhancement.
MBW: compatible because drugs are not augmentations.
BR: compatible because they are not augmentations.
If augmentations are actually meant to be synonymous with enhancement this would be different. Historically they are different things and this edition did not specifically say they were or were not synonymous, and the differentiation has been a Known Thing for a long time.
I would say the above is compatible with RAW but maybe not RAI, but I could give two shits about the RAI of this edition. If authors want their intent to hold water, they should write more clearly (and apparently catalyst doesn't care about the RAI, given the editing quality and numerous contradictions in each book - intent here has no credibility to me ergo I look solely to the RAW)