Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: farfromnice on <02-12-16/1323:48>
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does anyone of you could explain to me why the Charisma of the Trolls get bumped from 5 (in the 4th) to 4 (in the 5th)
one of my friend love to play a Bear Shaman Troll but with the newest charisma stat of the Trolls it seems pointless to try
personnaly I love the idea of a Troll face but for the same reason, it seems pretty useless ... unless I'm playing with a GM who love to being con by his players
so toughts anyone ?
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Back in 1st/2nd I think the limit for troll Charisma was also 4? (I have a 2nd edition book at home, can check tonight), so possibly they were reverting a change that had been made in fourth?
One thought for the bear shaman would be to go with the Sioux tradition, which feels not wildly different from the traditional shaman, but used intuition as the its drain stat (there the limit for trolls in 5th is 5).
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Well, the trope is that Trolls are big, dumb combat beasts. This is reflected in the fluff that they are poor, uneducated, and targets of mistrust and racism. It is possible to bump the Cha with Exceptional Attribute. But probably the best way to get a Troll with high social skills is an adept. Building a Troll as anything but a combat monster is tricky, but its possible. A Troll will never outface an optimized Elf, but an Elf will never go toe to toe in melee with an optimized Troll.
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Perhaps Fancy Derek can be a guideline?
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=22985.msg423189#msg423189
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A Bear Shaman Troll is quite viable, it's just different than before. If your friend finds a certain character concept fun he should go ahead and try it, playing imperfect characters is a lot of fun. There are some options to work with too, such as Exceptional Attribute. The names escape me but Chrome Flesh has some upgrades that allow Trolls to get more charisma. I think you can have at least a 7 Charisma to start the game. Don't forget situational modifiers for social situations, being a massive troll can be handy in a negotiation too. Sure, you might not be as diplomatic as an elf but you are pretty damn intimidating and that migth net you some bonus dice.
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Because the authors felt like it, basically. That's what it boils down to.
A troll face would probably want to be an adept with Prototype Transhuman and inherent Tailored Pheromones 3. And good gear.
You could do it and playing against type can be fun but realize you're going to invest a lot of resources to do it well.
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A few things... first up Street Grimior and Shadow Spells have a bunch of Initiative based traditions.
Also, even if you do stick with typical shaman, Charisma is just used for drain dice. Keep your Willpower high and you'll still get good drain dice.
Don't fotget that there are various drugs that raise mental stats, Novacoke and Red Mencse?(?) Can help out with boosting Charisma.
Don't forget the Improved Attribute [Charisma] spell.
Finally, the big advantage of playing a troll is "Geek the mage!" Becomes a lot harder when the mage is armed and armored to the gills. ;D
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Yeah if your CHA is 4, the spell isn't so bad. Just casting at Force 4.
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There's also the Fomori metavariant of trolls with Charisma 5 base; if you don't mind the ludicrous dumps in OTHER Attributes as well (Logic AND Intuition down to 4 max, which is ludicrous since they also lowered Body and have a below-average Max Charisma anyways), you take Exceptional Attribute and you're as good as a Human or Dwarf Shaman.
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Well, the trope is that Trolls are big, dumb combat beasts. This is reflected in the fluff that they are poor, uneducated, and targets of mistrust and racism. It is possible to bump the Cha with Exceptional Attribute. But probably the best way to get a Troll with high social skills is an adept. Building a Troll as anything but a combat monster is tricky, but its possible. A Troll will never outface an optimized Elf, but an Elf will never go toe to toe in melee with an optimized Troll.
Actually the optimize elf could, if by melee you mean monowhip, with their agility maxed at 12, running wireless on, adept with weapon focus on the whip for at least +1 if not more.
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Well, the trope is that Trolls are big, dumb combat beasts. This is reflected in the fluff that they are poor, uneducated, and targets of mistrust and racism. It is possible to bump the Cha with Exceptional Attribute. But probably the best way to get a Troll with high social skills is an adept. Building a Troll as anything but a combat monster is tricky, but its possible. A Troll will never outface an optimized Elf, but an Elf will never go toe to toe in melee with an optimized Troll.
Actually the optimize elf could, if by melee you mean monowhip, with their agility maxed at 12, running wireless on, adept with weapon focus on the whip for at least +1 if not more.
Yup, was thinking about this earlier.
Troll was much easier to fit in in 4th, honestly. You might have been a bit short, but as it stands in standard prio, troll casters are exceptionally hard to do. Troll sams can get by ok though, and will likely be Edge-monsters.
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The Charisma range for Trolls is the same 1/4 it was in the last edition (20th Anniversary). It wasn't just raised on a whim by "the writers" between editions, thanks. And Troll Faces are plenty playable, and actually got more playable with a recent sourcebook (Chrome Flesh) which lets them increase their Charisma racial limit all the way back up to a 6, if they want.
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It wasn't just raised on a whim by "the writers" between editions, thanks.
ANY change in stuff between editions is ultimately ascribable to writer/developer preferences in fluff or mechanics, and probably attempts at balancing a new mechanical paradigm.
I'm not going to take responsibility for or feel bad if YOU chose to read, "the writers felt like it" as any kind of negative statement. It's simply a fact, like "why did ware costs change between editions," or "why did drain codes change" or "why does the matrix work a different way than it did in 4th" or even "why is standard chargen priority-based."
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It wasn't just raised on a whim by "the writers" between editions, thanks.
ANY change in stuff between editions is ultimately ascribable to writer/developer preferences in fluff or mechanics, and probably attempts at balancing a new mechanical paradigm.
I'm not going to take responsibility for or feel bad if YOU chose to read, "the writers felt like it" as any kind of negative statement. It's simply a fact, like "why did ware costs change between editions," or "why did drain codes change" or "why does the matrix work a different way than it did in 4th" or even "why is standard chargen priority-based."
But...this wasn't a "change in stuff between editions." That's what I'm saying. This didn't change between editions. It's the same as it was in SR4A, I can give you the page numbers if you'd like. I'm not saying it's a negative statement, I'm saying it's an inaccurate one. And when people make an inaccurate comment and ascribe either carelessness or malice to me and my coworkers -- while they're being wrong, and don't even know what they're complaining about -- yes, I'm going to speak up. I've never told fans not to be unhappy with a product, and not to voice that complaint; but when a complaint is inaccurate, I've also never shied back from saying so. There's plenty to complain about, sure. There's stuff I don't always like, myself. But when you complain about the wrong thing, and pin it on the wrong people, I'm sorry, but I'm gonna speak up and correct stuff.
I'm not going to take responsibility for or feel bad if YOU chose to ignore literally everything else I said (pointing out that there was actually no negative change to the most recent edition's basic Troll racial maximum, and that in actuality Trolls can now have a higher Charisma than ever before in the history of the game, thanks to Chrome Flesh) in order to jump on one little comment.
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The Charisma range for Trolls is the same 1/4 it was in the last edition (20th Anniversary). It wasn't just raised on a whim by "the writers" between editions, thanks. And Troll Faces are plenty playable, and actually got more playable with a recent sourcebook (Chrome Flesh) which lets them increase their Charisma racial limit all the way back up to a 6, if they want.
I like this option, though the reduction always feels like selling out. The troll lower limits are ruff cause they are my favorite race and they are only good at being strong (but not hitting) and taking bullets (cause they aren't good at dodging).
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Have you considered the Fomorian version of the Troll? Its charisma is 1/5 rather than a 1/4, and using standard priority costs 12 karma. You do start with 1 less starting & max body and lose the dermal deposit, but you gain the positive quality Arcane Arrester (innate magical resistance, if I remember correctly). Given that you're looking to make a Troll Face, the loss of the point of strength and dermal deposits shouldn't hamper you.
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Like I said earlier, one does have to deal with 1/4 in Logic AND Intuition, though.
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Like I said earlier, one does have to deal with 1/4 in Logic AND Intuition, though.
And nothing that is central to a Face's primary skills need those stats. A Fomorian using priority generation, with Meta A, Skills B, Attributes C, Resources D, and Magic E can have:
Body, Agility, and Reaction at 4
Strength 5
Willpower, Logic, and Intuition 3
and Charisma 5
With 36 skill points and 5 group skill points:
Acting Group 5
Ettiquette 1 (I've never seen a need for more than 1 or 2 points put into this skill)
Intimidation, Leadership, and Negotiation at 6
Then they can pick up a combat skill at 6, plus stealth, perception, perhaps a skill to dodge. If their table doesn't use leadership all that much, or at all, they can dump points out of that for more secondary skills.
That's a good Face character right there, has only spent 12 karma of the free karma everyone gets, and it doesn't take into account bonuses and/or attribute increases from augmentations, gear, etc. Granted you will be looking at the majority of augmenting the character after they've made some runs. Sum to Ten or Life Module generation would probably give the character more wiggle room to play with nuyen, if those are allowed at their table, but there's nothing wrong with that character core.
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You could also play a giant - same charisma, no hit to willpower, and 10 Karma points cheaper.
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You could always go out for the troll reduction treatment. Renraku needs your nuyen!
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Like I said earlier, one does have to deal with 1/4 in Logic AND Intuition, though.
And nothing that is central to a Face's primary skills need those stats.
Everyone needs INT and REA.
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Yeah, Intuition is pretty big for a Face; it is a part of Judge Intentions and your Perception.
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You could also play a giant - same charisma, no hit to willpower, and 10 Karma points cheaper.
+1
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I forgot the Willpower hit to Fomorians; it makes them even worse.
I don't get how the even bigger and uglier (by description) Giants get a higher Charisma.
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Charisma is not (just) a measure of looks, but a representation of force of character.
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And the extra-large Giants are described as not having that.
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Yeah, Intuition is pretty big for a Face; it is a part of Judge Intentions and your Perception.
A starting attribute of 3 in Int is perfectly acceptable, and you can get by on a 2 if you absolutely had to. It really depends on the table and group: For example, I can count on one hand the number of times I've had to judge intentions on a NPC. Other tables might use it each game. For perception you can get more dice with the right visual enhancements in contacts or glasses, and audio perception tests can likewise get a bonus from ear buds or headphones and the right audio enhancements. Willpower for a Fomorian capped at 5, true, but since 5th Edition works like 4th in that odd numbers up the number of damage/stun boxes you get, I don't see a problem with that.
I didn't mention Giants along with Fomorians because I thought they had a social penalty. Looking back at them, it seems that was just fluff with no actual rules mechanics supporting it. With them only costing 2 Karma, they are a great choice for a Troll face as well. Also keep in mind that either the Fomorian or Giant at Metatype A gets 6 edge starting; if you absolutely need more dice for judging intentions or perception, in addition to what gear can give you for perception, pop a point of edge to get 6 more dice, ignore limits, and get 'exploding' 6s. Again things will vary from table to table, but in my experience Trolls can be a good primary face. /shrug
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INT is also core to defense tests and initiative. Which everyone wants.
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And the extra-large Giants are described as not having that.
How is that, exactly? Run Faster only states the following:
Across the board, giants test within the same ranges as base ingentis. Similar to trolls, their mental acuity tends to be underestimated. That is to say, while they may average slightly lower than other metatypes on intelligence tests, they tend to be brighter than people believe they are. Thus, giants are quite capable of surprising people with mental feats that in truth are products of only average or slightly above average minds.
Unless the statline is just wrong, which is a distinct possibility, the exact quote about mental characteristics averaging slightly lower than other metatypes is spot on. With racial maximums of 5s for mental attributes, Giants are exactly that; slightly lower than other metatypes.
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That means you won't find a giant with for instance a logic in the Sheldon Cooper area, but 5 is still very good.
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INT is also core to defense tests and initiative. Which everyone wants.
And a starting Int score of 3 is still good for a Face, and if I remember correctly there was some ware (Cyber? Bio?) that could be taken to increase that attribute. Not to mention all the many other ways initiative can be augmented.
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INT is also core to defense tests and initiative. Which everyone wants.
And a starting Int score of 3 is still good for a Face, and if I remember correctly there was some ware (Cyber? Bio?) that could be taken to increase that attribute. Not to mention all the many other ways initiative can be augmented.
The INT ware is bleeding-edge, insanely expensive, and caps at rating 2.
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INT is also core to defense tests and initiative. Which everyone wants.
And a starting Int score of 3 is still good for a Face, and if I remember correctly there was some ware (Cyber? Bio?) that could be taken to increase that attribute. Not to mention all the many other ways initiative can be augmented.
The INT ware is bleeding-edge, insanely expensive, and caps at rating 2.
And can be bought later if they want to, or they can just increase the attribute via karma if they want to buy other ware. That still doesn't change the fact that a starting Int score of three is good for a non-archetype primary attribute.
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Except Intuition is used for Judging Intentions, which is a pretty important thing for a Face to do.
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Except Intuition is used for Judging Intentions, which is a pretty important thing for a Face to do.
Except that it's one of those things that depends on the table. Apparently at both of your tables it's become super important. The tables I've played at since the start of third edition? Not so much. I can count on one hand the times I've actually had to use it as a Face. It's not that important in my experience.
*I'll edit this in, instead of making another post:*
In the opinion of you both, judging intentions is important. Fair enough, I don't play at your table, so I don't know why your GM is having you roll it so much. However judge intentions is an attribute check, not a skill; if it was a skill, then yeah, I would consider it something a Face needed to put some skill points in, but it's not a skill. Given that at your tables it's important to use judge intentions, I have to ask: Just what the hell is the rest of your party doing leaving these checks solely on the shoulders of the Face? Depending on tradition of course, your Mage should have a fairly high Int attribute, as should your Decker. Why aren't they judging intentions? Even your combat types should have a few points in Int; why aren't they rolling as well.
Is your GM making only your Face roll? Outside of situations where the Face would be talking to the NPC by themselves (which shouldn't happen, but sometimes can), everyone present should have an opportunity to roll. It seems kind of silly to me that the Face should be expected to pump up his Int, but no one else on the team can be bothered to do so? Including those archetypes that actually use it for their core skills? ??? Again, why is a Troll having an Int of 3 (which is either nearly max or above average, depending on the subspecies) somehow bad? The "judge intentions and perception are important" lines aren't really answering that.
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Is your GM making only your Face roll? Outside of situations where the Face would be talking to the NPC by themselves (which shouldn't happen, but sometimes can), everyone present should have an opportunity to roll. It seems kind of silly to me that the Face should be expected to pump up his Int, but no one else on the team can be bothered to do so? Including those archetypes that actually use it for their core skills? ??? Again, why is a Troll having an Int of 3 (which is either nearly max or above average, depending on the subspecies) somehow bad? The "judge intentions and perception are important" lines aren't really answering that.
I imagine the argument may be even if the whole team is at the table, the others can not just shout out to the Face that they spot something hinky with JI.
But this is easily resolved with the team being connected to one another either by having the team conversing wirelessly or a Mindnet if you are worried about the Johnson's decker listening in.
Even in the novels you see one character talking to the Johnson while bits of AR or messages from his/her team pop up in his own view or earpiece.
And really you should be having someone sitting back a bit/doing overwatch anyway to look at the overall picture and updating everyone so the Face can focus on the main debate.
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I imagine the argument may be even if the whole team is at the table, the others can not just shout out to the Face that they spot something hinky with JI.
But this is easily resolved with the team being connected to one another either by having the team conversing wirelessly or a Mindnet if you are worried about the Johnson's decker listening in.
Even in the novels you see one character talking to the Johnson while bits of AR or messages from his/her team pop up in his own view or earpiece.
And really you should be having someone sitting back a bit/doing overwatch anyway to look at the overall picture and updating everyone so the Face can focus on the main debate.
Exactly my point: As dirt cheap as image link and a pair of contacts/glasses are, there is no reason why someone couldn't tell the Face "Hey, Mr. Johnson is lying to us, as usual" via text, or perhaps a subvocal mic and earplugs, which are also cheap. Having someone sit back and provide overwatch does make sense, but what about the others? Overwatch can be provided, and still have people present who can tip off the Face if they catch something wrong. It shouldn't solely be the Face's job to be a (meta)human lie detector.
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Sorry, did not mean to make it sound like the guy doing Overwatch is the only one chiming in.
I agree the team as a whole should be observing and conversing via microcomms / mindnet because what's going to work?
teeeeeeaaaammmwwwwoooorrrkkk..
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So you never actually try to judge if people are lying or misleading you, Dinendae? No attempts to figure out why a person does something? That's the whole point of Judge Intentions, and it is pretty integral to being a Face (more-so than other archetypes).
And yes, while everyone with the right Attribute spread can do it, they aren't always there to start. Secondly, it's the Face's job. His whole role involves the social aspect of a 'run. If a Face can't judge peoples' intentions, he's not carrying his weight. This isn't just for talking to Mr. Johnson; when the Face is off doing his own leg-work, or sweet-talking a person, or trying to fast-talk the cops who pulled him over, he should want to know whether or not he succeeded or is being given a wheelbarrow of bull, no?
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And can be bought later if they want to, or they can just increase the attribute via karma if they want to buy other ware. That still doesn't change the fact that a starting Int score of three is good for a non-archetype primary attribute.
I'm not going to agree with this, because being able to dodge and try to go first should be a primary thing for pretty much everyone.
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So you never actually try to judge if people are lying or misleading you, Dinendae? No attempts to figure out why a person does something? That's the whole point of Judge Intentions, and it is pretty integral to being a Face (more-so than other archetypes).
And yes, while everyone with the right Attribute spread can do it, they aren't always there to start. Secondly, it's the Face's job. His whole role involves the social aspect of a 'run. If a Face can't judge peoples' intentions, he's not carrying his weight. This isn't just for talking to Mr. Johnson; when the Face is off doing his own leg-work, or sweet-talking a person, or trying to fast-talk the cops who pulled him over, he should want to know whether or not he succeeded or is being given a wheelbarrow of bull, no?
- I don't go into the game thinking my character is stupid: They live in a dystopian world, and that fact should have been hammered into them from childhood. When playing a Face, I go in assuming that everyone they interact with is going to try and screw them over, especially the Johnsons and Fixers. We've had plenty of Jackpoint fluff where they've brought in Johnsons and Fixers who have said "Yeah, we try to screw you over as much as we can get away with." So my Face, not being an idiot, walks into the meet knowing that the Fixer or Johnson is going to try and screw the team over, even if it's simply by not paying as much as they could. Why would I roll to judge intentions on something I know is automatically going to happen anyway? My Face's motto is always "Never trust, always verify." That verification is not done with the Johnson, as they're going to be lying to you anyway.
- In accordance with above, I go into the meeting knowing the person is going to lie about motivations, who they actually work for (if they even mention an employer), and why they want said run done. Figuring that stuff out is part of the post-meet legwork (although your Decker can start looking into that during a meet), which everyone should have a chance to help out in at one time or another (even your Street Sam should have some contacts they might be able to try to get some information from).
- At the end of the run, my Face automatically plans that things will go South. As such the Face is never left alone to deal with the NPC we did the run for; at a bare minimum we have both a combat and magic type there. Now you may not always be able to do that (I allowed for that possibility in a previous post) but it has never been an issue for any of the groups I've been in. We go into the meet expecting an ambush, and prepare accordingly. When we're as positive as we can be that the NPC isn't going to screw us over, we go into the meet expecting an ambush, and prepare accordingly. Paranoia is an essential survival skill in the 6th world.
- [/size]Remember the sheep? More specifically the lesson Bull told Dev/grrl? It's not your place to worry about what's going on, other than make sure your team isn't going to get hosed over by being a disposable (and disposed of) decoy team or that the Johnson isn't going to have your team terminated at the end of the run. Like Bull told Dev, you're a professional, it's not your job to dig into why the Johnson wants X done, or Y person extricated, or Z item taken. Again, it's a dystopian world; bad things happen, and you're one of the people who makes the bad things happen. Don't like the job that was presented? Walk away. However it's not your business to know why prototype A, along with any files on it, needs to be extracted from Megacorp B. Forget about the sheep. It's not your business to know about the sheep, unless the Johnson makes it your business.
- [/size]Going along with the previous point, and to paraphrase someone from a different I.P.: "We do the job, we get paid." You're supposed to be an anonymous, deniable asset; it's not your job to dig into the motivations of the Megacorp (or whoever the Johnson works for). You can protect yourself from being betrayed, and should, but that information should be gleaned from the legwork section of the run, which generally comes after the meet. You can also help protect against betrayal be going into the final meet/exchange expecting to be betrayed; your Street Sam should be prepared for combat (and right there with the Face, to provide security for them), Deckers and Riggers should already be in over-watch, your Mage should have a summoned spirit to help (doesn't need to be bound), and often should also be with the Face as well (not only to discourage them from throwing an AoE spell on the bad guys (and thus hitting the Face), but also to help reassure the Johnson that you're not intending to double-cross them as well).
- [/size]Again, judging intentions is not the Face's job; it is everyone's job.
- [/size]Neither of you have still answered the question I've asked: "Why is a starting Int score of 3 bad?" Judge Intentions is an Int + Cha test; in the case of the sample Fomorian I put up, that would have the player rolling 8 dice for the test, 14 dice if they spend a point of their 6(!) edge (which would also let them ignore limits, as well as re-roll any 6s). How is that somehow "bad" for a starting character? What the hell game are you playing? ???
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Dinendae
Points for Firefly reference. And as for what kind of game some people are playing? The kind of games where a dice pool of 8 for a test with two attributes is low, would be my guess. To some, if you're not rolling at least 12 dice on every test you make you're setting yourself up for failure. Not pointing any fingers, it's a valid playstyle, but you know who you are.
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And can be bought later if they want to, or they can just increase the attribute via karma if they want to buy other ware. That still doesn't change the fact that a starting Int score of three is good for a non-archetype primary attribute.
I'm not going to agree with this, because being able to dodge and try to go first should be a primary thing for pretty much everyone.
I've dodged just fine on characters with Int scores of 2, and there are plenty of options for boosting initiative; the Troll I briefly outlined earlier in the thread starts with 50,000 nuyen, and can get another 40,000 nuyen by trading in 20 points of karma during character creation. For 90,000 nuyen you can get your fake SIN rating 4, some licenses, a rating 6 commlink, Face appropriate armor, and a weapon (with decent mods and ammo), and still be able to afford some kind of initiative boosting ware. You can then use drugs if you want that initiative bonus even higher. Later on, you can upgrade the ware to get a higher bonus. Not everybody can start the game with combat archetype-level reflexes. It falls under that "Everything has a price" catchphrase that permeates this edition.
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Dinendae
Points for Firefly reference. And as for what kind of game some people are playing? The kind of games where a dice pool of 8 for a test with two attributes is low, would be my guess. To some, if you're not rolling at least 12 dice on every test you make you're setting yourself up for failure. Not pointing any fingers, it's a valid playstyle, but you know who you are.
Mal is my guiding star when it comes to how my characters behave in Shadowrun, generally speaking. ;D
They can do whatever they want in their games, and I truly don't care what their playstyle is (to each their own, and all that) but coming into a thread and telling others that a perfectly viable character concept is somehow bad because it doesn't fit in with how they play falls into that "You're playing the game wrong" mentality we've seen on the forums here. They'd probably have a heart attack if they saw the Decker/Rigger character I've played in Missions games who has a 13 on one class skill, and 10's or less on the other skills! ;D
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1. It pays to know what they're lying about. Knowing if they're lying about who you'll be messing with as opposed to who is hiring you is quite useful.
2. It helps you with post meet leg-work too, if that's your bag.
3. So what if you're never alone with Mr. Johnson? That's irrelevant to the importance of a Face's capacity to spot tells and other cues. The meet where you get hired is the least of the concerns there. You automatically assume he's lying, go with it. Judge Intentions is good to tell if someone bought your story elsewhere, or figure out if your contact is keeping something from you.
4. Irrelevant.
5. Not only irrelevant, but contradictory with your post-meet leg-work. Motivations tell you the why of the job, which tells you how things are going.
6. Everyone should do it, but it is a part of the Face's role. The entire purpose of the Face is to deal with people. Judging Intentions is a part of it. Would you say a customer service representative is good at their job if they can't tell when someone is unhappy with a product? Yeah, everyone should be able to do it, but a Face should be able to do it well.
7. Well, if you actually read what Whiskey is saying, Intuition has far more value than just Judge Intentions (or Initiative). Evasion, Perception, Knowledges; Intuition affects a lot of important things, especially for a Face who probably isn't investing so much into combat attributes. And you can't turn over 10 karma into Nuyen. Cut that number down to 70,000.
To note; you are far too focused on the pre and post-run meetings. That is only a small section of the game.
I'm not acknowledging the comments on 'playing wrong' beyond saying they're wrong (the comments, to be clear).
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Well, the trope is that Trolls are big, dumb combat beasts. This is reflected in the fluff that they are poor, uneducated, and targets of mistrust and racism. It is possible to bump the Cha with Exceptional Attribute. But probably the best way to get a Troll with high social skills is an adept. Building a Troll as anything but a combat monster is tricky, but its possible. A Troll will never outface an optimized Elf, but an Elf will never go toe to toe in melee with an optimized Troll.
I don't know about this, I personally would take an optimized elf over an optimized troll in melee
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1. It pays to know what they're lying about. Knowing if they're lying about who you'll be messing with as opposed to who is hiring you is quite useful.
2. It helps you with post meet leg-work too, if that's your bag.
Let's get these two out of the way first. Number 1 up there? That is what legwork does, not judge intentions; legwork as in having your decker dig around for information in the matrix, or fishing for information from contacts. Judge intentions will tell you (correctly or not, depending on rolls) basic yes/no type things. Do I think the Johnson is lying to us? Do I think the Johnson plans to betray us? Now it doesn't exactly have to be yes or no, your GM can tell you "You feel he's going to betray you" or "You think he's being level with you." Even if you roll high enough to get a correct idea of the basics, that can change. The example used in the book, under the judge intentions description mentions that just because they don't intend to betray you at that point doesn't mean that they can't change their minds.
I don't tend to need judge intentions, because my motto is "Never trust, always verify," and I have far more effective ways to get better information than playing 20 questions with Johnson. The last line in the book sums up why I don't need the skill usually:
"This primarily serves as a benchmark or gut instinct about how much you can trust the person you are dealing with."
I don't need a test to tell me that I already don't trust them. I have other skills to help me to dig out the facts, as well as skills available from the team, skills actually designed for digging more than a surface deep, gut feeling. Perhaps it's just a case of your GM being generous with the check though; it seems your group is getting far more information from using judge intentions than it says it gives. /shrug
3. So what if you're never alone with Mr. Johnson? That's irrelevant to the importance of a Face's capacity to spot tells and other cues. The meet where you get hired is the least of the concerns there. You automatically assume he's lying, go with it. Judge Intentions is good to tell if someone bought your story elsewhere, or figure out if your contact is keeping something from you.
I'm curious, how often do you actually roll this during a session? Just a rough guess? If someone didn't buy my story, there's always a backup plan for that event. ALWAYS. My Face doesn't try talking, if he can help it, until we decide what will happen if it goes south. In those circumstances where you have to make a hasty story up on the spot, we still have something to fall back on, even if it's the basic "Shoot them in the face until they stop twitching, and then evac."
4. Irrelevant.
5. Not only irrelevant, but contradictory with your post-meet leg-work. Motivations tell you the why of the job, which tells you how things are going.
Number four is not irrelevant at all, this falls into that planning on being betrayed anyway mentality; it's why you don't need to sit there and think "Is Mr. Johnson lying to me or planning on betraying me?" (i.e. judge intentions); you plan on it, prepare for it in such a way that it becomes obvious you are prepared for any betrayal at the hand-off, and if they go ahead and do it you drop the hammer on them and/or evac. Judge intentions is not needed there. Besides, like the description for judge intentions states in the rulebook, just because they initially don't plan on betraying you doesn't mean they can't change their mind (the converse of that is true as well).
Number 5 is not irrelevant either; see above. It is also not contradictory; the legwork we do isn't to find out their motivations. We don't give a damn about their motivations. If any of legwork, researching information that we need to accomplish our goals (hint: Johnson motivation isn't in that category), would somehow uncover something sinister (i.e. Mr. Johnson is actually trying to reestablish a new version of the Universal Brotherhood for his insect overlords), we'll decide if we want to continue the run or take other steps instead. Judging intentions isn't going to tell you that kind of information; actual legwork will (generally speaking digging that deep requires finding some kind of matrix trail, although contacts can help).
6. Everyone should do it, but it is a part of the Face's role. The entire purpose of the Face is to deal with people. Judging Intentions is a part of it. Would you say a customer service representative is good at their job if they can't tell when someone is unhappy with a product? Yeah, everyone should be able to do it, but a Face should be able to do it well.
You still haven't stated what "well" is. What is the magic number of base dice you think a Face has to have for judge intentions? The original example I put up was a Fomorian with a Charisma of 5 and Int of 3, giving 8 base dice and the ability to pump that to 14 dice (before any possible modifiers get tossed in). However, after I posted that it was established that Giants (still a Troll) don't get the social penalty I had thought they did ( says it in the fluff, but no actual rules). With that in mind, I stated Giants would be good as well. Making it a Giant and tweaking the attribute points would get you Charisma 5 and Int of 4 for a base judge intentions of 9, and the ability to spike it to 15 if needed (again before any other positive modifiers are taken into account). Again I'll ask, how is this bad? What is the number you think is needed in each attribute before it's no longer bad?
7. Well, if you actually read what Whiskey is saying, Intuition has far more value than just Judge Intentions (or Initiative). Evasion, Perception, Knowledges; Intuition affects a lot of important things, especially for a Face who probably isn't investing so much into combat attributes. And you can't turn over 10 karma into Nuyen. Cut that number down to 70,000.
I did read what he said, but neither of you stated why a starting Int attribute of 3 is bad. Willpower is important as well, same with body, and agility, and archetype important attributes (and if you're a technomancer, everything is important). Yeah, it factors into a lot of important skills, which you can put skill points into at character creation, and which can be raised far higher than attributes (for the most part).
Yeah, my bad on the nuyen; I don't know where I came up with 20. However, 70k nuyen still can buy you everything I listed previously, and still get you something to improve initiative. Granted it's not going to be top shelf, alpha-grade level 3 ware, (more likely rating 1 used) but you can get initiative improvements at character gen with that priority selection.
To note; you are far too focused on the pre and post-run meetings. That is only a small section of the game.
That's a misconception on your part; I only mentioned them to point out how judge intentions isn't that useful for me; as I stated previously it's the post-acceptance legwork where the real work is done, and generally speaking I haven't needed judge intentions there either. We do some legwork, including planning for the actual run, and then we do the run. We don't go around trying to dig up motivations.