Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: ProfessorCirno on <02-14-16/2055:47>
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So I did a sorta half-done thing to unarmed combat some time ago, and since then I've been trying to poke away at one of the more classic archtypes to Shadowrun: the kung fu adept.
And I don't think it can be satisfactorily done.
That isn't to say it's impossible. Of course you can make an adept who can punch. But can you make an adept who can punch, but who also has literally any reason at all to be such? Can you increase unarmed effectiveness as an adept in ways you couldn't without 'ware or without using a sword?
And to be frank? No. No you cannot.
First, let's cover the problems with unarmed combat. Then I'll look into the "benefits" and you'd better believe there are some gigantic sarcasm quotes there, because I'll be knocking over all of those benefits.
Problems
- Melee attacks are all complex actions, yes? Except, without smart planning and, to be frank, using a workaround that might not have been intended, it is in fact possible to attack as a simple - or free! - using melee weapons (for what it's worth, you use either the Iaijutsu martial art technique, or for adepts, the Quick Draw power). This allows melee adepts to slam on Agility Boost before getting nice and bloody, while martial artists are bizarrely enough stuck sighing and taping the floor for their round.
- Even the most basic weapon - your crappiest knife - does 1P. Unarmed does 0S. At it's most, it does 4P, It has no reach. It has very little to no armor piercing.
- It feels cool to finally get your giant don't mess with me claymore. It feels cool to break into the armory and lovingly lift up that assault cannon. It feels cool to add that sweet new super strong focus to your collection. But your punches? Not so many upgrades to be found there. This is sorta of a minor point, but it's still, well, a point.
- Killing Hands Kinda Sucks
- This is one of the weirder things. Like, yes, punches have potentially a much higher accuracy - but with no weapon foci, you're less likely to REACH that. Consider that a weapon focus a) costs less then .5PP worth of karma to bind and b) gives you a boost to your attack pool on top of letting you attack spirits. Killing Hands is just...puny, in comparison.
[/list]
"Benefits"
- Cannot "lose" your weapon
- I will below go into why this is a garbage benefit that shouldn't actually be considered below.
- This is a real short list isn't it?
- Oh wait that adept power that makes your fists also do fire damage, except it doesn't actually add extra damage
- and costs an action to know what nevermind
Why I think unarmed is made to be terrible, and I know some of this will be mentioned so lets get this out of the way now:
Largely, crappy punches mostly boil down to three main problems. This is stuff that kinda hits the industry as a whole, but I'll mainly focus on how it hits Shadowrun.
1) "Realism." The scorn I have for immersionist theory could fill several books, so I'll be brief. The general theory I have heard is that "of course it's weak - you're just punching someone!" Nevermind that it never fails to be bizarre that this is where the line is drawn for realism's sake in the world of dragons and magic - the fact is, adepts are already magic. Like, they already have access to "a wizard did it!" Why don't they have better magic-punches?
2) Overvaluing the inability to be disarmed. When was the last time your character lost ALL their weapons - completely and utterly - and was immediately in a situation where they needed one of their specifically missing weapons to survive? They lost their pistol and, what do you know, literally no guards here use a pistol. Your swordswinger no longer has his sweet daikatana, and gosh, not a single soul to be found had a knife on them. Thank goodness for Punch Dude. How long ago was that? And how often does it happen? Because unless it's like 50% of your games, congratulations on making one archtype that the game constantly tells you is absolutely viable much weaker for the sake of a potential corner case that happens once in a blue moon. And don't even try to talk to me about scanners, there's a plethora of ways to get guns through, and you can even buy KNIVES MADE OF RUBIES to slip through those.
3) "But then why use a weapon?" The main failing to this point is simple: unarmed fighting IS a weapon. Sure, in the dark ages of tabletop games (aka the 70's), when there was no such thing as fighting styles, and all you had was OD&D and a Fighter class that did 1d6 damage regardless of weapon, I guess? But nowadays, few games come out where fighting is reduced to a single binary point of "what weapon do you use?" Each fighting style is just that - a style. Each weapon choice, broadly speaking, should be viable either or both for reasons of style, or because they all have advantages and/or disadvantages. Which means unarmed needs to be considered more then just "the backup," given how many resources you have to pour into it just to make it a viable backup!
Why I'm focusing on adepts:
Because they're the only ones who need it.
Like, there's a lot of ways to make rad unarmed fighters. I think spurs are pretty rad. Having super dense bones and giant weirdo thick knuckles to punch dudes with is kinda rad. BONE SPIKES are rad in an also kinda dumb 90's sorta way. Like, there's a TON of different ways to increase your unarmed damage!
They just all cost essence.
It's just...weird that adepts have nothing. Like, isn't that their entire schtick from when they first started? They were the mystic hoodoo kung fu dudes who punch you with magic.
What makes this all the more irritating is how great it is in Shadowrun: Returns, especially the most recent one in Hong Kong. Punch-adepts are rad. You have adept-specific abilities just for punchin'. Killing Hands adds damage and stacks with your punch-weapons (in fact, spiking killing hands can get you some of the best damage in the game!). There's a unique weapon for punching that's just plain cool, so you have something to go with the top tier guns, super strong mage spells, awesome weapon foci, etc. And the reason for all of this is that they stopped looking at unarmed fighting as "something to do when you lose your gear I guess" and instead looked at it as the legitimate character archtype that Shadowrun presents it as.
So to finish...well, what am I missing? What's the cool adept punch ability that makes it totally worthwhile compared to other options? Or is it just a bad secondary option that I should've never considered? Should I just give up and make hybrids or full sammies for my punchmen?
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Have you looked into powers like Penetrating Punch, elemental strikes and Claws (I think) from Beast's way? I believe having claws increases reach.
Also get powers like Combat Sense to dodge your way through the hail of bullets you need to dodge to get to your targets. Nerve Strikes are pretty awesome too on paper at least.
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Let's be frank- knucks is a weapon.
Knucks can be a weapon foci.
knucks use- wait- Unarmed.
Or skip STR altogether and be a shock glove boxing champ.
yeah, these can be foci too.
kicking technique gives you reach. you can even wear steel toed shoes if you want- can I have my timberland weapon foci boots- sure you can.
am I saying unarmed is better than a weapon-no, but it's not useless either and you can always take it with you- something you can't always do with a weapon.
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Have you looked into powers like Penetrating Punch, elemental strikes and Claws (I think) from Beast's way? I believe having claws increases reach.
Also get powers like Combat Sense to dodge your way through the hail of bullets you need to dodge to get to your targets. Nerve Strikes are pretty awesome too on paper at least.
Penetrating is pretty dang expensive for what you get; -1 AP isn't a whole lot. Claws are...really stupid. Unless I misread it, it just gives you a bonus against spirits - and nothing else. Unless you mean the claws you get from initiation, in which case...well, same problem with penetration. Initiation costs a lot of karma, and in return, you get 1/2 magic in reach (so, most likely, +3 attack). There's a lot of easier and cheaper ways to get that +3 attack. Elemental Strike...whoooh boy. Elemental Strike is more then useless. It doesn't actually do anything for you; it probably looks cool, but a) you only get one element and you choose which when you gain the power (so no versatility), b) it doesn't actually effect your attack or damage, c) it costs a simple action to activate - which means you can't attack that turn - and finally d) your choice of element might actually INCREASE their soak if their armor is built to handle it!
So you're spending a simple action and removing your attack so that the enemy can more easily soak your punch with no actual benefit.
To this day I have no idea what Elemental Strike is meant to actually offer.
Nerve Strike's biggest issue is that it doesn't stack with anything. That is to say, if you punch a dude with Nerve Strike and don't reduce their stat to 0 (remember, it only counts hits as damage), none of your partners can help you finish the job. It sorta HAS to be a one-hit kill, which means you need to roll real high.
As for stuff like Combat Sense, that loops back around to my problem. Why not use a katana with it? Why use unarmed fighting?
am I saying unarmed is better than a weapon-no, but it's not useless either and you can always take it with you- something you can't always do with a weapon.
Dude...no offense, but read my post before commenting on it, please. I pretty explicitly cover this. Like, in detail.
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I honestly think that Adept unarmed specialists suffered heavily from the Martial Sharkist Boxing Adept from 4e who stacked +1 DVs from here until tomorrow. That's the only explanation that I can think of for the limitations they placed on Critical Strike, and the fact that in Martial Arts, there's only a couple maneuvers that grants DV and most of them involve taking a penalty of some sort.
That and, as you mentioned, nobody is quite sure what Elemental Strike/Elemental Body is actually supposed to do, since those powers are some of the biggest casualties to the early editing process.
Otherwise the only real benefit that unarmed adepts have over unarmed non-adepts is Immunity to Normal Weapons is bypassed by Killing Hands, so you can go around punching Spirits more often. That's all I got. And yes, as you mentioned, it's more worthwhile just to smite them with a weapon focus, but that's generally an adept/mage schtick over the mundane anyhow.
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Have you looked into powers like Penetrating Punch, elemental strikes and Claws (I think) from Beast's way? I believe having claws increases reach.
Also get powers like Combat Sense to dodge your way through the hail of bullets you need to dodge to get to your targets. Nerve Strikes are pretty awesome too on paper at least.
Penetrating is pretty dang expensive for what you get; -1 AP isn't a whole lot. Claws are...really stupid. Unless I misread it, it just gives you a bonus against spirits - and nothing else. Unless you mean the claws you get from initiation, in which case...well, same problem with penetration. Initiation costs a lot of karma, and in return, you get 1/2 magic in reach (so, most likely, +3 attack). There's a lot of easier and cheaper ways to get that +3 attack. Elemental Strike...whoooh boy. Elemental Strike is more then useless. It doesn't actually do anything for you; it probably looks cool, but a) you only get one element and you choose which when you gain the power (so no versatility), b) it doesn't actually effect your attack or damage, c) it costs a simple action to activate - which means you can't attack that turn - and finally d) your choice of element might actually INCREASE their soak if their armor is built to handle it!
So you're spending a simple action and removing your attack so that the enemy can more easily soak your punch with no actual benefit.
To this day I have no idea what Elemental Strike is meant to actually offer.
Nerve Strike's biggest issue is that it doesn't stack with anything. That is to say, if you punch a dude with Nerve Strike and don't reduce their stat to 0 (remember, it only counts hits as damage), none of your partners can help you finish the job. It sorta HAS to be a one-hit kill, which means you need to roll real high.
As for stuff like Combat Sense, that loops back around to my problem. Why not use a katana with it? Why use unarmed fighting?
am I saying unarmed is better than a weapon-no, but it's not useless either and you can always take it with you- something you can't always do with a weapon.
Dude...no offense, but read my post before commenting on it, please. I pretty explicitly cover this. Like, in detail.
Dude, offense. But the one sentence you took out of my post is there to say that the three things I mentioned to help out unarmed doen't mean I think it's better than using a katana.
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If you're going for pure killing power then there are zero reasons to go unaugmented and unarmed.
Unarmed is for you if you:
- expect to be unarmed most of the time you operate;
- don't want to risk bringing weapons with you;
- want a solid backup melee skill.
Adepts are still mystic hoodoo kung fu dudes who punch you with magic. But there are also mundane transhuman wannabe dudes who punch you with SCIENCE.
Being an unarmed physical adept with no cyberware has more advantages than just "cannot be disarmed".
- You need less resources than a cyberdude. Adepts start at priority D but a street sam needs at least priority B cash to keep up with a fighty adept's speed and dicepools.
- You can really stay below radar. When you only have a credstick and a commlink and no guns you don't stick out like that guy with industrial-grade cyberclaws and electronic nerve system with a four-barreled shotgun. Or that other guy with a glowing* katana. Yes, the sapphire knives and holdout pistols exist but they are not 100% undetectable.
- You can be underestimated and overlooked -> surprise electric dropkicks are go.
You probably won't dish out the most damage but unarmed adepts are far from being useless. That's like saying that pistols and assault rifles are useless because assault cannons do more damage.
I don't want unarmed unaugmented adepts to do more damage than their armed or augmented counterparts because they invest less (skills and powers vs. skills, powers, money, karma a for bonded weapon focus).
*I know that weapon foci don't really glow.
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Elf
Charisma 9
Improved reflexes 2 2.5
Killing hands .5
Nerve Strike 1
Astral Perception 1
Smashing Blow 1
Shocking gloves as weapon foci
Initiate
Magicians way
Master of the Nine Chakras
take a hit of jazz with wrist chem injector
???
Profit
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Claws are...really stupid. Unless I misread it, it just gives you a bonus against spirits - and nothing else. Unless you mean the claws you get from initiation, in which case...well, same problem with penetration. Initiation costs a lot of karma, and in return, you get 1/2 magic in reach (so, most likely, +3 attack)
Beast's Way Claws cost 2 karma (once you have Beast's Way) and give +1DV.
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Claws are...really stupid. Unless I misread it, it just gives you a bonus against spirits - and nothing else. Unless you mean the claws you get from initiation, in which case...well, same problem with penetration. Initiation costs a lot of karma, and in return, you get 1/2 magic in reach (so, most likely, +3 attack)
Beast's Way Claws cost 2 karma (once you have Beast's Way) and give +1DV.
I was wrong about the effects...but it's a metamagic. It requires initiation. In what universe does that only take 2 karma? Spending a full initiation for +1DV is yet again kinda more proof that the adepts are idiots. And like...I was wrong about the effects because the effects are actually LESS then I thought.
As for shock gloves, I suppose it could just be my GMs, but I find nonconductivity to be the most common armor mod. ...And uh, why go adept, again? It's the same sorta issue with the knucks - I've seen plenty of places rule against using those for stuff like Smashing Blow, and then why not just use a blade?
Basically, are any of these methods better then just spending a point of ESS to get 'ware? Dense Bones are undetectable. More undetectable then adepts in fact, due to the lack of magical aura. My hope for SR5 was that the "hybrid" would no longer be objectively better then the regular adept. Pre-SR4 you ABSOLUTELY wanted to avoid 'ware on your adept. Why would I taint my soul with chrome when I got the magic right here in my hands? SR4 was something of a dark age for adepts, where 'ware was cheap, efficient, and ubiquitous, making it the better option literally every time. And for the most part they did succeed; if you're going with firearms, you can absolutely make an adept who's just as useful as a sammie. And for weapons usage, while adepts are different from sammies in what they're good at, they both have pretty solid niches. And likewise, a sword-using sammie and an unarmed-fighting sammie are going to have a few differences between them regarding what they're good at, with both being good.
I'm just not seeing where adepts can do unarmed fight as good as someone with 'ware can - in spite of that having been the adept's "thing" in Shadowrun since they existed. And I'm not seeing where adepts gain anything by going unarmed instead of putting their weapon foci in a sapphire dagger.
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I was wrong about the effects...but it's a metamagic.
It's an Enhancement.
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I was wrong about the effects...but it's a metamagic.
It's an Enhancement.
...Would you believe I not only never noticed it was an enhancement...but that enhancements existed in the first place? I feel seriously dumb now. Thank you for being patient with me, hahaha.
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I'm actually with Cirno here, I didn't notice the whole Enhancements section by virtue of glossing over the initiation section. color me surprised. That said, what is the policy for Enhancements at Chargen? I know Initiation is usually limited.
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I concur with ProfGast that a lot of it probably has to do with how powerful punching adepts could get in SR4 - up to +3 from critical strike, up to +3 from martial arts, and bioware like muscle augmentation and bone density augmentation stacked with it. Unfortunately, like most good options from SR4, unarmed combat got over-nerfed in SR5. Even worse, most of the nerfing was on the magical side (critical strike only has one level) and the martial arts side - augmented characters can still increase their strength and get bone lacing.
There is one un-nerf, though - Strength is no longer halved for computing damage. Trolls are close combat kings again.
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There is one un-nerf, though - Strength is no longer halved for computing damage. Trolls are close combat kings again.
Except that now you pretty much have to be a Troll to do decent unarmed damage, but if you play a Troll, you're hosed in several different areas in Priority, and it's prohibitively expensive in karma generation.
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One thing that Unarmed has going for it that no other weapon does -- the Limit for Unarmed is your Physical Limit. If your PL is 13, you can generate 13 hits. Compare that to a Claymore with ACC 5. So, yeah, it's an edge case and it requires immense investment for it to really turn into a benefit, but it is there.
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Using the Physical Limit can make a huge difference. You can also grapple, choke, and (with the right M.A.-techniques) throw your oponnent, which is also the biggest advantage unarmed combat has to offer in RL*.
For a "pure" Adept, there´s also Nerve Strike plus the "unarmed weapons" like Hardliner Gloves, Plasteel Cap Boots, etc. For some exotic character options you can also use a variety of natural weapons, and if you bring some augmentations into the mix, you can even surpass most other melee weapons. Honestly, I never thought of unarmed combat as being the weak option. I think the melee skill that got the short of the stick is, well, sticks. Clubs are a lot less powefull and a lot less precise than bladed weapons, while still not offering the bonus of being available almost in all situations.
*especially Choking, which arguably could/should be stronger than it is in the RAW, at least when used by a trained martial Artist. But that´s another thing.
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Adepts can stack a crazy amount of dice if they try. +2 from Shark Totem, +3 from Improved Ability, + Agility Boost, + Weapon Foci (shock gloves, knucks, whatever), ect, ect.
You can increase DV from Critical Strike power, using the called shot rules, and/or the mentioned Shock Gloves, Knucks, or the assorted Metahuman options to bump Str.
Yes, you're still short DV compared to an Orc with Bone and Str augments, but you've got more dice. And if you're in a long campaign, Magic "beats" Augments. And most physical Adepts have a Magic priority B compared to a Samurai's A in Resources so the Adept character picks up something, somewhere, usually mental stats.
I would argue that DV 13 with 17 Dice, vs. DV 10 with 21 Dice are close 'nuff in effectiveness. (Numbers are pulled from memory of theorycrafted builds, I'm willing to be off a bit).
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Adepts can stack a crazy amount of dice if they try. +2 from Shark Totem, +3 from Improved Ability, + Agility Boost, + Weapon Foci (shock gloves, knucks, whatever), ect, ect.
Except the commonly held belief on these forums would be that the Critical Strike power 'magically' (ironic, ain't it?) stops working when you put on a set of brass knuckles, focus or not.
Yes, you're still short DV compared to an Orc with Bone and Str augments, but you've got more dice. And if you're in a long campaign, Magic "beats" Augments.
Even the Ork Adept is short on damage compared to the Ork Sam on unarmed.
In order for the Magic to "beat" Augmented as things stand, the game will have to last longer than most likely will.
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Or skip STR altogether and be a shock glove boxing champ.
yeah, these can be foci too.
- can I have my timberland weapon foci boots- sure you can.
I'd question both of those actually.
I can see a lot of argument going to how neither of them fits the criteria for a Weapon Focus.
Has there been canon examples of either so far?
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Yes, you're still short DV compared to an Orc with Bone and Str augments, but you've got more dice. And if you're in a long campaign, Magic "beats" Augments. And most physical Adepts have a Magic priority B compared to a Samurai's A in Resources so the Adept character picks up something, somewhere, usually mental stats.
I would argue that DV 13 with 17 Dice, vs. DV 10 with 21 Dice are close 'nuff in effectiveness. (Numbers are pulled from memory of theorycrafted builds, I'm willing to be off a bit).
I actually see far more Resources B sammies then A. You can get enough bang for your buck with Resources B. Resources A tends to only happens when they're going F U L L C Y B E R B O D Y.
As for magic beating it in the long run...well, does it beat going hybrid? I guess what I'm broadly asking is: is there a point where unarmed adepts are better served by NOT going for bone density + striking calluses?
EDIT: Not to belabor the point, but it takes four PP to raise strength by 4...or a single point of ESS/Magic to load yourself up with muscle bioware.
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Yes, you're still short DV compared to an Orc with Bone and Str augments, but you've got more dice. And if you're in a long campaign, Magic "beats" Augments.
Even the Ork Adept is short on damage compared to the Ork Sam on unarmed.
In order for the Magic to "beat" Augmented as things stand, the game will have to last longer than most likely will.
Samurai: Bone Augments +3 and Biobumpy bits for +1, plus cheaper Str augments. Feel free to correct me if I missed something.
Adept: Knucks and Crit strike for a +2. (take Crit strike Knucks if your GM insists)
4 Extra dice, Shark Totem and 3 Dice Improved Ability for the Adept, Reflex Recorder for the Sami. Net 4 Dice.
Adepts are behind by 2 DV and whatever additional Str the Sami can stack and are up by 4 plus whatever weapon focus dice. Called Shot Vitals means +4 Dice = +2 DV. It's cheaper Str Augmentation vs Weapon Focus Dice and the assorted clever tricks with Nerve Strike and whatever. That is about as even as it gets in Game design.
I've only fiddled a bit with Unarmed combat as punching things is really resource intensive for the payout. But Magic vs Augments seems pretty close.
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Hobbes - don't forget muscle toner. Boost Agility costs a Simple, which means no attacking that turn.
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With an adept you can push unarmed to crazy levels of both pool and accuracy. With the addition of a single spells you can make an adept that's just as capable or potentially more effect then their tech counterparts.
Until errata drops, Mana blade is the strongest thing currently, but no gm in their right mind will let it in as written.
Straight magic Unarmed is totally viable, and there are plenty of options and variant, pick your preferred Martial Arts idiom and go to town.
As ZB pointed out, Yes adding transhuman, is going to make any unarmed adept build stronger. But does that mean you need it to be effective? Of course not, Pap Ren pretty much nailed it in his first post.
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Boost Agility costs a Simple, which means no attacking that turn.
You need to get close anyway.
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Until errata drops, Mana blade is the strongest thing currently, but no gm in their right mind will let it in as written.
Death touch has F-6 drain code. Just about anyone can overcast it all day every day and suffer no drain at all. Add a fetish and we have a F10 direct combat spell for 2 drain and yet it is somehow not as strong as a manablade? Even a Manabolt spell has a better DV than Manablade.
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Or skip STR altogether and be a shock glove boxing champ.
yeah, these can be foci too.
- can I have my timberland weapon foci boots- sure you can.
I'd question both of those actually.
I can see a lot of argument going to how neither of them fits the criteria for a Weapon Focus.
Has there been canon examples of either so far?
Wow, just wow.
CRB p320 A weapon focus always has, unsurprisingly, the form of a melee weapon. It adds magical power to the melee attacks you make with it. When used in physical combat, it gives you its Force as a dice pool bonus on your melee Attack Test. You still rely on your Physical Attributes and skills in combat; the weapon focus merely makes you more effective.
CRB p423 Melee weapon chart, last line:
Shock gloves Physical — 8S(e) –5 6R 550¥
Hard Targets p179 under weapons:
PLASTEEL TOE BOOTS
ACC DV AP REACH AVAIL COST
[Phys] (Str+1)P — — 2 200¥
Since shock gloves and plasteel toe boots are melee weapons they can be foci since weapon foci are unsurprisingly melee weapons.
You can even take a pistol melee harden it or not as you please, make it into a weapon foci because guess what, you can use it as an improvised MELEE weapon (clubs in this case).
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Hobbes - don't forget muscle toner. Boost Agility costs a Simple, which means no attacking that turn.
Muscle Toner is one of the cheaper Str augment options I mentioned. See also Muscle Replacement or Cyberlimbs. Cheaper is relative. 1 PP for +1 Str is flat out the most expensive Str boost available IMO so every other option is "Cheaper"
Boost Agility lasts several turns, drain is trivial to manage, I've never had a problem keeping it running, and there are an assortment of martial art or quickdraw options for making melee attacks when you don't have a complex action. YMMV, but it's only really a problem if your GM wants it to be.
And yes, hybrid is the best. Every min/maxer knows, more options = Better. If you can fit in some Augments on your Physical Adept you can make an even better Physical Adept. I thought the OP was Magic vs Augments, if you want to do Magic vs Augments vs Both, then Both "wins". For an odd definition of Winning anyway.
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I actually see far more Resources B sammies then A. You can get enough bang for your buck with Resources B. Resources A tends to only happens when they're going F U L L C Y B E R B O D Y.
Eh, I mostly see Resources A, because always cram more ware in ;D
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I actually see far more Resources B sammies then A. You can get enough bang for your buck with Resources B. Resources A tends to only happens when they're going F U L L C Y B E R B O D Y.
That is very different than my experience with Samurai builds. You can certainly get a lot of milage out of Resources B, but if you're going for Wired Reflexes and the assorted Agility and Str mods you're going to run short somewhere. Wired 2, Used Reaction 3, Muscle Aug and Muscle Toner? You're not getting that for Resources B.
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I actually see far more Resources B sammies then A. You can get enough bang for your buck with Resources B. Resources A tends to only happens when they're going F U L L C Y B E R B O D Y.
That is very different than my experience with Samurai builds. You can certainly get a lot of milage out of Resources B, but if you're going for Wired Reflexes and the assorted Agility and Str mods you're going to run short somewhere. Wired 2, Used Reaction 3, Muscle Aug and Muscle Toner? You're not getting that for Resources B.
That's not necessery right. I've made a street samurai for my friend and they happen to have most of that.
== Attributes ==
BOD: 3
AGI: 6 (8)
REA: 5 (9)
STR: 5 (7)
CHA: 2
INT: 5
LOG: 3
WIL: 3
EDG: 5
== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Bone Lacing (Plastic) Alphaware
Cybereyes Basic System Rating 2 Standard
+Image Link
+Smartlink
+Thermographic Vision
+Eye Protectors (Ballistic Glass)
+Flare Compensation
Datajack Alphaware
Hand Razors Alphaware
Muscle Replacement Rating 2 Alphaware
Reaction Enhancers Rating 2 Alphaware
Wired Reflexes Rating 2 Standard
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That leaves less than 20,000 for armor, weapons, ammunition, miscellaneous necessary gear, lifestyles and Fake SINs and Licenses (which are pretty much required these days and have been since 4th). A single Fake SIN of decent rating (4) with the licenses needed for the weapons is over 10,000 by itself. You're going to seriously run into cash problems on less than Resources A.
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I actually see far more Resources B sammies then A. You can get enough bang for your buck with Resources B. Resources A tends to only happens when they're going F U L L C Y B E R B O D Y.
That is very different than my experience with Samurai builds. You can certainly get a lot of milage out of Resources B, but if you're going for Wired Reflexes and the assorted Agility and Str mods you're going to run short somewhere. Wired 2, Used Reaction 3, Muscle Aug and Muscle Toner? You're not getting that for Resources B.
That's not necessery right. I've made a street samurai for my friend and they happen to have most of that.
== Attributes ==
BOD: 3
AGI: 6 (8)
REA: 5 (9)
STR: 5 (7)
CHA: 2
INT: 5
LOG: 3
WIL: 3
EDG: 5
== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Bone Lacing (Plastic) Alphaware
Cybereyes Basic System Rating 2 Standard
+Image Link
+Smartlink
+Thermographic Vision
+Eye Protectors (Ballistic Glass)
+Flare Compensation
Datajack Alphaware
Hand Razors Alphaware
Muscle Replacement Rating 2 Alphaware
Reaction Enhancers Rating 2 Alphaware
Wired Reflexes Rating 2 Standard
Which is very similar to what I'd do with Resources B. But note, not maxed out for Unarmed damage which was the point. You're short on Bone Augmentation, and only +2 Agility and Str. If you're strictly comparing Unarmed damage a Physical Adept will be able to match what that build is able to punch. It's likely that the Sami build above will have other skills though, as would the Adept. But that build is what, 16 Dice at 8 or 9 DV? A Physical Adept can easily match that.
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To this day I have no idea what Elemental Strike is meant to actually offer.
Core rule book, page 170-171.
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To this day I have no idea what Elemental Strike is meant to actually offer.
Core rule book, page 170-171.
It's meant to offer two pieces of glossy paper? ... Weak.
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Boost Agility lasts several turns, drain is trivial to manage, I've never had a problem keeping it running, and there are an assortment of martial art or quickdraw options for making melee attacks when you don't have a complex action. YMMV, but it's only really a problem if your GM wants it to be.
But I'm not talking melee. I'm talking unarmed. Come on, I explicitly mention this in the first post as one of the problems unarmed has!
That is very different than my experience with Samurai builds. You can certainly get a lot of milage out of Resources B, but if you're going for Wired Reflexes and the assorted Agility and Str mods you're going to run short somewhere. Wired 2, Used Reaction 3, Muscle Aug and Muscle Toner? You're not getting that for Resources B.
Easy - Wired 1. With reflexes and intuition both at five, Wired 1 + Used Reaction Boosters 3 gives you 2d6+15, which is good odds for two initiative passes. Wired 2 improves your odds to get those two init passes but does not offer substantial odds of getting 3. Wired 2 is an improvement, but it's an improvement you can hold out on. In my experience Resources A is more used for bio-sammies. Furthermore, for melee characters, Attributes becomes substantially more important as you now require very high strength - we don't all leave half our stats at 1, Hobbes.
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Dude, a completely unaugmented Human can easily spend all of Resources C and still need to dip into the karma coming at 'Finishing Touches' for more.
Start adding in augmentations and it really goes up into the stratosphere.
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Until errata drops, Mana blade is the strongest thing currently, but no gm in their right mind will let it in as written.
Death touch has F-6 drain code. Just about anyone can overcast it all day every day and suffer no drain at all. Add a fetish and we have a F10 direct combat spell for 2 drain and yet it is somehow not as strong as a manablade? Even a Manabolt spell has a better DV than Manablade.
Can't parry a mana blade, you can parry death touch. Also death touch won't scale with unarmed success, the unarmed part will. But that part is subject to armor, the mana blade is not and is only subject will and cs. Once mana blade is fixed I'll agree with you.
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You shouldn't attemt to fix something that's not broken.
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Boost Agility lasts several turns, drain is trivial to manage, I've never had a problem keeping it running, and there are an assortment of martial art or quickdraw options for making melee attacks when you don't have a complex action. YMMV, but it's only really a problem if your GM wants it to be.
But I'm not talking melee. I'm talking unarmed. Come on, I explicitly mention this in the first post as one of the problems unarmed has!
That is very different than my experience with Samurai builds. You can certainly get a lot of milage out of Resources B, but if you're going for Wired Reflexes and the assorted Agility and Str mods you're going to run short somewhere. Wired 2, Used Reaction 3, Muscle Aug and Muscle Toner? You're not getting that for Resources B.
Easy - Wired 1. With reflexes and intuition both at five, Wired 1 + Used Reaction Boosters 3 gives you 2d6+15, which is good odds for two initiative passes. Wired 2 improves your odds to get those two init passes but does not offer substantial odds of getting 3. Wired 2 is an improvement, but it's an improvement you can hold out on. In my experience Resources A is more used for bio-sammies. Furthermore, for melee characters, Attributes becomes substantially more important as you now require very high strength - we don't all leave half our stats at 1, Hobbes.
An initiative of 2d6+15 guarantees 2 passes, with a good shot at a 3rd. Also, unarmed is melee. I understand you meant not armed, but it is a fine distinction. Martial arts do have a little to offer.
Ultimately, I think unarmed is fine. I mean, there is a reason wars have always been fought with weapons, they are superior. I don't feel they are that underpowered, but that is my opinion.
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Boost Agility lasts several turns, drain is trivial to manage, I've never had a problem keeping it running, and there are an assortment of martial art or quickdraw options for making melee attacks when you don't have a complex action. YMMV, but it's only really a problem if your GM wants it to be.
But I'm not talking melee. I'm talking unarmed. Come on, I explicitly mention this in the first post as one of the problems unarmed has!
Do a different simple action? Lots of options. Such as readying your Knucks? Taking a hit of Jazz? Activate a second Boost? Throw a Grenade? Activate your Boost before you start the fight?
You're talking about unarmed damage here, you're never going to win theory crafted DPS contests. Your play experience may be different than mine, but the Killing Hands adept in my campaign really doesn't lack for combat actions. The Assault Rifle toting Samurai puts more targets down when the fit hits the shan, the Physical Adept is the go to for stealth takedowns and fancy ninja tricks. Unarmed damage is a niche thing, for stealth, infiltration, and concealment.
That is very different than my experience with Samurai builds. You can certainly get a lot of milage out of Resources B, but if you're going for Wired Reflexes and the assorted Agility and Str mods you're going to run short somewhere. Wired 2, Used Reaction 3, Muscle Aug and Muscle Toner? You're not getting that for Resources B.
Easy - Wired 1. With reflexes and intuition both at five, Wired 1 + Used Reaction Boosters 3 gives you 2d6+15, which is good odds for two initiative passes. Wired 2 improves your odds to get those two init passes but does not offer substantial odds of getting 3. Wired 2 is an improvement, but it's an improvement you can hold out on. In my experience Resources A is more used for bio-sammies. Furthermore, for melee characters, Attributes becomes substantially more important as you now require very high strength - we don't all leave half our stats at 1, Hobbes.
Int 5, Reaction 5, Wired 2, Used Reaction 3 is 15 + 3d6, and is roughly a 95% chance of 3 actions. Wired 1 is 14 + 2d6 and is roughly a 58% chance of 3 Actions. Personally I consider 95% a substantial chance, it's a shot I'd take in XCOM every time, 58% is essentially a coin flip. And if you're Attributes is A or B it's actually impossible to have half your stats at 1 if you spend all your stat points. Although with a B you could have 3/8ths of your stats at 1 if you really wanted.
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Glad multiple people called out the initiative 15+CDs is automatically 2 passes.
As for the crit strike not stacking with knucks, that is odd? Critical Strike you pick which 3 melee skills (or exotic weapon) you want it to work with and bam +1 dv. So yes, it works with knucks, they're unarmed skill based weapon, or any other unarmed skill based weapon.
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Glad multiple people called out the initiative 15+CDs is automatically 2 passes.
Easy - Wired 1. With reflexes and intuition both at five, Wired 1 + Used Reaction Boosters 3 gives you 2d6+15, which is good odds for two initiative passes. Wired 2 improves your odds to get those two init passes but does not offer substantial odds of getting 3.
Just pointing out the flaws in this statement, to try to avoid confusion.
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Glad multiple people called out the initiative 15+CDs is automatically 2 passes.
As for the crit strike not stacking with knucks, that is odd? Critical Strike you pick which 3 melee skills (or exotic weapon) you want it to work with and bam +1 dv. So yes, it works with knucks, they're unarmed skill based weapon, or any other unarmed skill based weapon.
Table stuffs. Some GMs may differentiate between Knucks and not-Knucks apparently? But, yes, Crit Strike Unarmed should stack with knucks. And Bone lacing or any other cyber/bio weapons that use Unarmed for that matter.
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If you're going adept/ magic i'd consider way of the warrior.
Yes it's 20 karma but it will grant you 1.5 or 1.25 free power points if your magic is 6.
And as you may not know Adept ways do not contribute to max positive quality limit during chargen.
I just build an Oni brawler/ missile master using this approach.
See below (FYI we houserule that a specialization in a martial art confers +2 dice when attempting a technique you have from that martial art).
Priorities:
ATTRIBUTES
MAGIC
METATYPE
SKILLS
RESOURCES
oni brawler adept
METATYPE: ONI
B 6, A 7, R 5/7, S 6, W 3, L 3, I 5, C 2, ESS 6, EDG 1, M 6
Condition Monitor (P/S): 11 / 10
Armor: 14
Limits: Physical 9, Mental 5, Social 5
Physical Initiative: 10/12+3D6
Active Skills: Gymnastics 6, Sneaking (Urban +2) 6, Throwing Weapons (Non-Aerodynamic +2) 6, Unarmed Combat (Ninjitsu +2) 6
Knowledge Skills: Japan Pop 1, Small Unit Tactics 3, Street Drugs 3, Yakuza 3
Languages: English 4, Japanese N, Or'Zet 2
Metatype Abilities: Enhanced Senses: Low-Light Vision
Qualities: Addiction (Mild): Kamikaze, Adept, Mentor Spirit: Thunderbird, SINner (National SIN): Japanese, Striking Skin Pigmentation: Bright red, blue or orange skin, The Warrior's Way: Counterstrike, Missile Mastery, Combat Sense, Tough and Targeted, Vendetta
Adept Powers: Combat Sense (1), Counterstrike (1), Critical Strike: Unarmed Combat, Enhanced Accuracy: Throwing Weapons, Improved Reflexes (2), Killing Hands, Missile Mastery, Motion Sense (6m) (3dicepool[5] (Varies)), Nerve Strike
Gear:
Armor Jacket
Ballistic Mask (Customized)
Contacts (3) w/ Flare Compensation, Image Link, Smartlink
Horizon BoomerEye w/ Camera
john smith w/ (1 month) Street Lifestyle
Novatech NetNinja
Weapons:
Knucks [Unarmed, Acc 9, DV 8P, AP –]
Shock Glove [Unarmed, Acc 9, DV 9S(e), AP -5] w/ Internal Battery
Tusks [Unarmed, Acc 6, DV 7P, AP -1]
Shuriken x20 [Throwing Weapon, Acc 10, DV 7P, AP -1]
Contacts:
Gang Boss (Connection 2, Loyalty 1)
Pharmacy Tech (Connection 2, Loyalty 1)
Starting ¥: 1,625 + (1D6 × 20)¥
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Did you take any martial arts yet? Also, your lack of social or disguise skills kinda frightens me. For a super PINK game he would work, otherwise when seen, he will stand out like a sore thumb.
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Wow, just wow.
CRB p320 A weapon focus always has, unsurprisingly, the form of a melee weapon. It adds magical power to the melee attacks you make with it. When used in physical combat, it gives you its Force as a dice pool bonus on your melee Attack Test. You still rely on your Physical Attributes and skills in combat; the weapon focus merely makes you more effective.
CRB p423 Melee weapon chart, last line:
Shock gloves Physical — 8S(e) –5 6R 550¥
Hard Targets p179 under weapons:
PLASTEEL TOE BOOTS
ACC DV AP REACH AVAIL COST
[Phys] (Str+1)P — — 2 200¥
Since shock gloves and plasteel toe boots are melee weapons they can be foci since weapon foci are unsurprisingly melee weapons.
You can even take a pistol melee harden it or not as you please, make it into a weapon foci because guess what, you can use it as an improvised MELEE weapon (clubs in this case).
Not to nitpick, but, Gloves & Boots are clothing, not Weapons.
How does the magic change the taser battery to make that shock more effective against elementals?
Kicking someone w/ boots is still kicking them.
Its an Unarmed Strike, sure, its slightly harder than your average cowboy boots, but I still don't consider it a "Weapon".
A 2x4 can be an improvised weapon too, but do we have any magic construction lumber wielders out there?
For a long time it was a big debate if you could have cyber-foci. Then finally in 3rd edition we got a canon NPC with a Spur-Focus.
We also got a 4E NPC that has a Monowhip-Foci
I've certainly seen debates on this board about trying to turn Bone Lacing or Minotaur Horns into Foci & those get shot down even though they have a Melee Damage Code too.
I've yet to see anyone for sure confirm that you can actually turn clothing into Weapon Foci.
Its an area that is open for debate to say the least. That's all I'm saying.
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Wow, just wow.
CRB p320 A weapon focus always has, unsurprisingly, the form of a melee weapon. It adds magical power to the melee attacks you make with it. When used in physical combat, it gives you its Force as a dice pool bonus on your melee Attack Test. You still rely on your Physical Attributes and skills in combat; the weapon focus merely makes you more effective.
CRB p423 Melee weapon chart, last line:
Shock gloves Physical — 8S(e) –5 6R 550¥
Hard Targets p179 under weapons:
PLASTEEL TOE BOOTS
ACC DV AP REACH AVAIL COST
[Phys] (Str+1)P — — 2 200¥
Since shock gloves and plasteel toe boots are melee weapons they can be foci since weapon foci are unsurprisingly melee weapons.
You can even take a pistol melee harden it or not as you please, make it into a weapon foci because guess what, you can use it as an improvised MELEE weapon (clubs in this case).
Not to nitpick, but, Gloves & Boots are clothing, not Weapons.
How does the magic change the taser battery to make that shock more effective against elementals?
Kicking someone w/ boots is still kicking them.
Its an Unarmed Strike, sure, its slightly harder than your average cowboy boots, but I still don't consider it a "Weapon".
A 2x4 can be an improvised weapon too, but do we have any magic construction lumber wielders out there?
For a long time it was a big debate if you could have cyber-foci. Then finally in 3rd edition we got a canon NPC with a Spur-Focus.
We also got a 4E NPC that has a Monowhip-Foci
I've certainly seen debates on this board about trying to turn Bone Lacing or Minotaur Horns into Foci & those get shot down even though they have a Melee Damage Code too.
I've yet to see anyone for sure confirm that you can actually turn clothing into Weapon Foci.
Its an area that is open for debate to say the least. That's all I'm saying.
I don't see it as remotely open to debate. Knucks and shock gloves are described as weapons, they have all the mechanical details a weapon has in the game, they are described in a detail under a heading called "other melee weapons". their stats and costs are given in a giant table called "MELEE WEAPONS'. Please list one thing a sword has that a pair of knucks does not that makes it more of a weapon.
As for the 2x4, why could you not enchant one? If you can enchant a sharp piece of metal you should be able to enchant a blunt piece of wood. Damn it, now i have to go build a physical adept with the street name "Hacksaw Jim".
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Damn it, now i have to go build a physical adept with the street name "Hacksaw Jim".
Have him wield a Weapon Focus Monofilament Chainsaw. :P
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Damn it, now i have to go build a physical adept with the street name "Hacksaw Jim".
Have him wield a Weapon Focus Monofilament Chainsaw. :P
No, that's his troll brother. Chainsaw Charlie.
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2x4 aka club, kinda like a crowbar is a club that is also good at opening things (hence price increase) Those are a few of the tings that I would not use improvised weapon table for (yes both can be turned into weapon foci as well). As with anything under melee weapons table. Heavy technological weapon most likely will have to be done during character gen to keep some of the mechanical headaches away.
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Talking about Weapon Focus 2x4 boards is making me want to make a high Force Sustaining Focus corporate building...
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What do you think S-K Corporate Office Building is for Lofwyr?
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I thought I'd briefly return to this for two reasons.
1) Hobbes mentioned the real key to adepts is their super accuracy lets them do called shots. Except...that takes your free action. You know, the one you're using to run. So that doesn't work. However...
2) There's a way to make an unarmed attack as a simple+free action. It's...it's kind of a dumb one. But it works. With kip-up, you spring out from prone and make an attack in one move as a simple action. As a free action, you can throw yourself prone. This means! That the real key to unarmed fighting...
...Is BREAKDANCE FIGHTING!
That's right, constantly throw yourself at the ground, then spin on your head to kick them and land back on your feet!
( Or just make melee a simple action already, good lord )
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or take perfect time (now Im thinking of ninja turtles when they spin around on their shell)
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Hi, I am a returning player to 5E (the last time I played was 2E)
Just rounding out my first 5E character, an adept. I noticed these comments and just wanted to confirm that Enhancements can be taken at chargen and Adept's Way don't count towards positive qualities limit in char gen?
And as you may not know Adept ways do not contribute to max positive quality limit during chargen.
I'm actually with Cirno here, I didn't notice the whole Enhancements section by virtue of glossing over the initiation section. color me surprised. That said, what is the policy for Enhancements at Chargen? I know Initiation is usually limited.
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2) There's a way to make an unarmed attack as a simple+free action. It's...it's kind of a dumb one. But it works. With kip-up, you spring out from prone and make an attack in one move as a simple action. As a free action, you can throw yourself prone. This means! That the real key to unarmed fighting...
...Is BREAKDANCE FIGHTING!
I believe the correct name is "capoeira." ;D
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The trick to all this is the same one for making any sort of 'sub-par' - and I use those quote marks deliberately - character:
Talk To The GM.
If you're in a campaign that is a high-octane ammo-fuelled explosion of violence, where in one run you use more ammunition than the USMC and SEAL 6 combined do in an entire year, where when you get down to it you're defeating your opponents through the sheer fucking coolness of your Pink Mohawk - then yeah, a kung fu fighter is probably not the best character choice. If, on the other hand, you're going to be in a quiet, restrained, 'we're going to go into the office building at the start of daytime shift, look like we belong there for two hours, and once BitBoy infiltrates the network hub we'll take out the CFO's guards and escort him to his car for the exfiltration' sort of campaign, then a guy who can wear nothing but a well-fitted business suit into an elevator filled with SMG-toting guards and be the only conscious one to emerge a minute later, adjusting his cuffs, then that's the campaign to play The Puncherator in.
Are certain implants highly efficient, compared to magic? Sure. And to be honest, IMO you should if you can take advantage of that. If your character's profile is one where that's a bad thing, though, then go with your character concept. It is, again IMO, the job of your GM to pit you against balanced opposition, and to give your character a chance to shine.
EDIT: Man, I'm just screwing my tags up all over the place today ...
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The trick to all this is the same one for making any sort of 'sub-par' - and I use those quote marks deliberately - character:
Talk To The GM.
[/u][/b]
If you're in a campaign that is a high-octane ammo-fuelled explosion of violence, where in one run you use more ammunition than the USMC and SEAL 6 combined do in an entire year, where when you get down to it you're defeating your opponents through the sheer fucking coolness of your Pink Mohawk - then yeah, a kung fu fighter is probably not the best character choice. If, on the other hand, you're going to be in a quiet, restrained, 'we're going to go into the office building at the start of daytime shift, look like we belong there for two hours, and once BitBoy infiltrates the network hub we'll take out the CFO's guards and escort him to his car for the exfiltration' sort of campaign, then a guy who can wear nothing but a well-fitted business suit into an elevator filled with SMG-toting guards and be the only conscious one to emerge a minute later, adjusting his cuffs, then that's the campaign to play The Puncherator in.
Are certain implants highly efficient, compared to magic? Sure. And to be honest, IMO you should if you can take advantage of that. If your character's profile is one where that's a bad thing, though, then go with your character concept. It is, again IMO, the job of your GM to pit you against balanced opposition, and to give your character a chance to shine.
Yup, this +1 billion. Even in Super Pink Mohawk games, melee can work wonders, but they are usually more inline with Cloud/Sephiroth. And there is a reason for this and why metahumanity invented and started using weapons besides our first and feet, they work more efficiently 90% of the time.
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Some concepts aren't that great in a black trenchcoat game either, though. Melee is a niche role (slightly less of one in the confines of an office complex, but still....). If it is a game of subtle infiltration, being effective unarmed can be good, but the punching adept will need to have more than "hitting people in the face" in his repertoire. I agree with the "Talk to your GM" advice, but the unaugmented punching adept's problem (assuming punching is his main schtick and he is limited in other areas) is power level. He would probably fit in fine with a pink mohawk game where everyone is playing quirky but suboptimal characters, but be lost in a black trenchcoat game where he doesn't have the social or sneaking skills to keep up with the rest of the team.
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Uh ... okay. In my experience, it's the pink trenchcoaters who are going ultra-optimized, but that's not really the discussion at hand ...
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"You can houserule away the problems" does not mean the problems don't exist. If anything they reaffirm their existence.
Also, Shadowrun is literally built around the idea that melee is in-setting equal to guns for certain characters, so getting all snide about that is pointless.
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Snide? No.
I agree that magical punching has been downplayed in 5e; a weapon focus knife'll do you better every time. While 5e has some (a lot of) things I really like (skills, groups, limits), my preferred edition in general is 3e, when a properly-built adept could tap you on the chest, walk away, and six seconds later you'd fall over with a burst heart, because Deadly-level damage was, well, Deadly-level damage. But the problem of 'How do I get to you so I can punch you before you shoot me' has been there since I picked up my 1e SR book six months after the game came out. The answer lies in a) the GM setting up a scenario where Punchmeister can start out that close to Gunbunny, and/or b) the player of Punchmeister figuring out how to get that close before the combat starting gun goes off, so he can silence said starting gun before it can be fired.
I've recently run into this 'you can houserule otherwise' crap over on the Paizo boards, and it boils down to this: Rule #0 is Rule #0 in every game, game balance is - and has always been - something of an illusion, and each game requires the GM's touch; that's part of the art of being a GM. It's not houseruling the problem away; saying that is snide. It is noting 'the problem' for what it is, and just going ahead and handling it. Houseruling means changing rules, making new rules; in Pathfinder, in Shadowrun, in ANY gaming system that isn't usually required. Interpreting rules for each independent situation is what's required. That's called being a GM. Setting up a scenario in order to throw the spotlight on each seperate character is what's required. That's also called being a GM.
It ain't snideness; it's the GM doing their job. Is shooting magic-power-hands kung-fu-guy six times before he can get to you a problem? Yeah, kind of - but both the GM and magic-power-hands kung-fu-guy need to think of how he's going to get there before he can be shot six times. That's part and parcel of playing.
Do I agree with Punchmeister's mystic karate strike sucking in comparison to a simple HP bullet? Oh hell yeah, it sucks. There are situations where it's better (mystic karate strike is gonna damage spirits, while the HP ain't probably gonna do crap) but against standard opponents, yeah, it sucks. I don't disagree.
I DO disagree that 'SR is literally built around the idea that melee is in-setting equal to guns for certain characters', though - because again, that is a RPed thing. A guy with a gun facing a guy with a blade is going to kill Punchinator dead, if Punchinator can't close the distance; when Punchinator gets there, hey, he shouldn't punch him, he should disarm Gunbunny instead of letting him keep his damn gun. Even then, there ARE rules for 'close quarters defense against firearms' now, y'know? But what SR is built around is the samurai/gunslinger ideal - and that is usually not being played.
It means that there is a certain amount of cinematic sense to the SR world. If Punchinator steps around a corner he shouldn't've been behind, and Red Samurai is patrolling that hall, Red Samurai raises his SMG - and then Punchinator lifts his fists, and gives the classic Bruce Lee 'come on' gesture. At that point Red Samurai puts his SMG on safe, slings it, and draws his blade to meet Punchinator in honorable hand-to-hand combat. It doesn't mean that Punchinator (or his player!) should expect the situation to automatically, without the RP of 'let us fight like civilized men', to be able to run thirty-five meters and over and bitch-slap Red Samurai senseless just because it's a combat situation.
Game Balance is about 'Team vs. Opposition', not 'particular skillset vs. other particular skillset'. It never has been, not in any game system more advanced than Tunnels & Trolls or Bunnies & Burrows. There is always a 'more advantageous build' for any given situation. The fist-fighter's advantage is a) lack of a need for any weapon but himself, and therefore b) the ability to be a lethal fraggin' weapon while blending into the business meeting. If you're going to put everything, absolutely EVERYTHING, into enabling yourself to punch harder at the cost of being able to get to your opponent by diplomacy or stealth, then you deserve every sucky thing you are about to receive. Specialists in Shadowrun last only so long, and every character who specializes at the expense of every single other thing are nothing but meat for the beast.
So "Talk to your GM" is about the style of your particular table/game and character builds, not about house rules. So ... don't be snide yourself.
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Cool. For the record I actually did read all that.
Punching sucks even for devouted punchmen. That's the problem. The problem is not "how do they reach their target?" That's not actually a problem; mobility is fine. The problem is offensive capability. In fact, really, the problem is that punching is bad in a game where punching should be good. Shadowrun fluff - hell, the fluff in the books with the rules - talks up adepts not even needing weapons, "their whole body IS a weapon!" and whatnot. And it's not expressed in the rules. It's like if the game had no rules for decking. You wouldn't say "well, you can houesrule it in, and I think you'll find that it makes sense for the GM to decide on this matter and furthermore" - you'd call the game incomplete. Because it would be!
Rule 0 is no excuse for rules 1-∞ to be garbage. Bad rules are bad rules, period. And to be frank the idea of "I'll buy this product and then fix all the problems because that's MY job and really it's sorta my fault too" is insulting - not to me, to you. Have some self esteem.
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Dear ⑨, your statement is wrong because it starts from the premise "unaugmented adepts MUST be best at punching", which is also wrong.
In 5e, 'Everything has a price'. If you want to do X better then you need more investment.
Unaugmented punch adepts are still very capable of one hit K.O.-ing a person and kicking down not very thick walls.
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Please stop insulting me. I was neither snide, and my self-esteem is doing just fine.
I guess we're reading different rules. It sounds like you believe an adept should be able to punch through an engine block (or whatever). Yes, in fact I DO think that the base damage value of (STR)P kind of sucks. That said, the normally-4-STR adept wtih Attribute Boost (Strength) 4 (1 PP), Critical Strike (Unarmed) (0.5 PP) and Magic 6 can have a base of heavy-pistol-level damage (8P) for 6 Turns with a standard-3-success roll on 10 dice, and he isn't maxed out on the strength he can reach - he's still got another 2 points of flexibility there, which means he can be doing the equivalent of a heavy pistol with flechette rounds - better, because he doesn't take the +5 AP penalty. And if he's got Penetrating strike (-1 per 0.25 PP), it's even better. And despite it saying 'Killing Hands', it means 'even the back of your head does Physical damage if you want'. (Might not work with Elemental Strike and the like, but that depends on your GM.) So yeah - for 1.5 PP, the Puncherator seems to me to be pretty lethal.
Standard 'Joe Normal' adepts can't tear apart an APC; that's what troll-drake adepts are for. And of course, they never could. Since you say you're not talking about mobility, and since even the basic example above shows a certain lethality ... can you be more specific as to what your issue is?
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For the record, Wyrm, Attribute Boost (STR) does nothing for damage per the written rules, as it's no dicepool.
If you want to punch through cars you need Smashing Blow, which is a good choice for a Qi Fokus, since you don't (shouldn't) need it that often.
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... can I get a page / FAQ reference on that, please? Because, I mean, damage isn't a pool.
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I don't get why you are all so hung up on doing damage with an unarmed melee concept. That's what weapons are for - to be a force multiplier.
Having a hard time to do lots of damage with your bare hands is a mark of distinction, not a flaw.
Besides, there are quite a lot of options: Disarm, throw, subdue, clinch, knock down are all viable. Not to mention the paralyzing strike ability.
If you really want to be someone who is gear independent, specialize on the disarm MA technique and just take your enemies gear to shoot them. Or just get a shock glove or get some shock fur on your armor
Last but not least, you can also get adept spell shape change and just become a grizzly or a tiger to maul your enemies.
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The trick to all this is the same one for making any sort of 'sub-par' - and I use those quote marks deliberately - character:
Talk To The GM.
This. There are several examples of Adept powers and Martial arts that increase your action economy efficiency for melee characters. Ask your GM how they work with Unarmed. Also, check with the GM before bringing a Kung Foo fighter to a gunfight. If you invest an incredible amount of resources into a thing that isn't going to come up in a campaign, you'll be sad.
Also, as myself and others have pointed out, if max damage output is your goal, unarmed combat is the wrong skill for that. Unarmed combat is a niche thing for very low profile work. If you could do monowhip level damage as an unarmed fighter with minimal investment nobody would bother with weapons.
I guess I don't get your basic question. Unarmed combat, by design, does less damage than weapons with the same level of investment. And, IMO, that is the correct game design decision. You can achieve a high level of unarmed damage with a large investment of character resources that is in the ballpark of what you can do with weapon based characters, but Monowhips and Assault Cannons are still going to be doing more damage.
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This took me maybe 30-45 min to put together on a whim. Unarmed focused Adept with no ware, and decent abilities. And I know for a fact that I didn't push this as far as I could.
Kurokage
METATYPE: HUMAN
B 3, A 4, R 4/5, S 3, W 3, L 2, I 3, C 2, ESS 6, EDG 3, M 6
Condition Monitor (P/S): 10 / 10
Armor: 17
Limits: Physical 5, Mental 4, Social 5
Physical Initiative: 7/8+2D6
Matrix Initiative: 8+3D6
Active Skills: Artisan (Drawing +2) 4, Athletics Group 5, Escape Artist (Contortionism +2) 5, Etiquette (Yakuza +2) 3, First Aid 4, Free Fall 5, Locksmith (Tumbler +2) 5, Outdoors Group 1, Perception 5, Pistols (Semi-Automatics +2) 2, Stealth Group 4, Throwing Weapons (Blades +2) 5, Unarmed Combat 6 (9)
Knowledge Skills: Fine Dining 4, Seattle Yakuza 3
Languages: English 3, Japanese N
Qualities: Adept, Allergy, Uncommon (Mild): Silver, In Debt (Borrowed 20,000¥, Owes 30,000¥) (4), Lightweight, Mentor Spirit: Shark, Prejudiced (Specific) (Biased): Cybered, Spirit Bane: Spirits of Beasts, The Warrior's Way: Combat Sense, Critical Strike, Improved Ability
Adept Powers: Combat Sense (4), Critical Strike: Unarmed Combat, Improved Ability (3): Unarmed Combat, Improved Reflexes (1), Improved Sense: Ultrasound Sensor, Killing Hands, Missile Parry (4), Mystic Armor (2), Penetrating Strike (4)
Vehicles:
Harley-Davidson Scorpion [Handling 4/3, Speed 4, Accel 2, Body 8, Armor 9, Pilot 1, Sensor 2, Seats 1]
Gear:
Armor Jacket
Autopicker (6)
Ballistic Mask
Bug Scanner (6)
Certified Credstick, Standard
Datachip x10
Flashlight
Forearm Guards
Gecko Tape Gloves
Glasses (4) w/ Flare Compensation, Low Light Vision, Smartlink, Vision Magnification, Electronic
Kirigaya Kazuto w/ (1 month) Ares' Getting Network, Basic, Fake License: Private Investigator (4), Fake License: Weapons Permit (4), Fake SIN (4), (1 month) The Data Library of Alexandria, (1 month) Traveler Lifestyle
Medkit (3)
Novatech NetNinja w/ Diagnostics, P2.1, Sim Module, Ticker: News
Qi Focus: Missile Parry (4) (4)
Qi Focus: Mystic Armor (2) (4)
Mystic Armor
Simrig
Stealth Tags x10
Trodes
Weapons:
Ares Predator V [Heavy Pistol, Acc 8, DV 8P, AP -5, SA, 15 (c)] w/ (60x) APDS, Personalized Grip, Smartgun System, Internal, (3x) Spare Clips
Shock Glove [Unarmed, Acc 5, DV 9S(e), AP -5] w/ Internal Battery
Throwing Knife x10 [Throwing Weapon, Acc 5, DV 4P, AP -1]
Contacts:
Bartender (Connection 1, Loyalty 2)
Fixer (Connection 3, Loyalty 2)
Starting ¥: 1,825 + (3D6 × 60)¥
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Shadowrun © 2005-2015 The Topps Company, Inc. All rights reserved. Shadowrun is a registered trademark of The Topps Company, Inc.
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... can I get a page / FAQ reference on that, please? Because, I mean, damage isn't a pool.
"This only affects your dice pools; your Physical limit and Initiative ratings don’t change with Attribute Boost." SR5 pg 309.
"Add the attacker’s net hits to the Damage Value of the weapon to determine the modified Damage Value." SR5 pg 173.
Damage is a value, not a dice pool you get to roll. Maybe not what the authors intended, as it does really cripple Attribute boost (STR).
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Hm. Not the interpretation I'd take.
Limits and Initiative are derived attributes that include other attributes as well, and which don't change with a momentary boost; they are, so to speak, a holistic figuring of the body's ability. I personally think otherwise, especially with Initiative, but I can see where the intent is going. How hard you hit - armed and unarmed damage, in other words - is a direct, single-attribute value.
*shrugs* In any case. Going by your interpretation - and that's what I'd maintain it is, unless there's a specific statement about Attribute Boost (STR) not changing your Melee DVs directly - it shunts the 'required' Attribute Boost over to Agility instead, though it only makes for an average of +1 added successes, alas. But you're still getting some pretty good bang for your buck, especially if you're a mid-range-attribute sort of person.
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Attribute Boost Reaction becomes the problem child if you let the Boost powers add to values. You're then picking up another initiative boost power that stacks with Adrenaline Boost or Improved Reflexes. I suspect that is why the Boost power is "Dice Pools Only", too easy to hit the +4 Augmentation cap on Reaction.
May or may not be a real balance issue, but I would guess that is what the concern was along with the Troll Axe Adept with a "cheap" +4 DV. You're getting into "Yikes!" damage territory.
It makes Attribute Boost Str an auto-pick for melee builds, and Attribute Boost Reaction a very powerful choice too. May or may not be an issue at any given table so I think the devs went the conservative route and let the table GMs do what they feel is right for their game.
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Attribute Boost Reaction becomes the problem child if you let the Boost powers add to values. You're then picking up another initiative boost power that stacks with Adrenaline Boost or Improved Reflexes. I suspect that is why the Boost power is "Dice Pools Only", too easy to hit the +4 Augmentation cap on Reaction.
May or may not be a real balance issue, but I would guess that is what the concern was along with the Troll Axe Adept with a "cheap" +4 DV. You're getting into "Yikes!" damage territory.
It makes Attribute Boost Str an auto-pick for melee builds, and Attribute Boost Reaction a very powerful choice too. May or may not be an issue at any given table so I think the devs went the conservative route and let the table GMs do what they feel is right for their game.
The author said he intended STR boost to add to damage but that it would have to wait for errata. Whether the line editor purposely changed the author's intent for balance reasons is unknown. The author only commented on STR not on REA/BOD so his intent on those is unclear. Still, until errata I play it as written which means I have little use for any but AGI boost.
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Boost body adds to damage soak pool and reaction should add to defense pool, but yeah, agility boost is king currently.
And as for pink games not being optimized, not sure if I would agree with that. They generally are hyper killers, but suck at normal ShadowRun roles. But, that depends on the game. For a more shades game, I would go with knife adept with possibly missile mastery on the side. Crap, time for new character to be made. Sum to 10 here I come.
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Missile mastery.....
The ultimate surprise ranged attack :)
Nothing says "WTF?!?" Like killing someone with a thrown paper clip :P
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Nothing says "WTF?!?" Like killing someone with a thrown paper clip :P
This comes close
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/35/dd/7e/35dd7e6e70176d4709127e37e953beb0.jpg)
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This thread and others like it made me try to see what I could come up with.
Created this guy here http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=23623.0
Punching as hard as the best Assault Rifle can't be all that bad can it?
Character seems workable to me if a bit limited.
I think some of my variant ideas while making him a little weaker defensively would go a long way towards making him more well rounded.
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Put together a troll who started out with a 23P/AP-2 punch the other day, but he needed 'ware. And restricted gear to get that rating 4 bone density.
Troll, exceptional attribute: strength, genetic optimization: strength, alpha muscle augmentation 2, improved physical attribute 2: strength, for a final total of 16 strength at my augmented max.
Alpha bone density 4 and four alpha striking calluses (both hands, both feet), critical strike, and haymaker for an extra +7P on top. Penetrating strike 2 for some AP. Dice pool to hit isn't great for an adept and wastes that physical limit of 15, but accuracy is something to work on. Initiative's crap, too, which is another priority. I have 4.26 essence left, so room for delta muscle toner 2 if I really want to drop the nuyen, and I don't have too terribly much to spend it on. Can't rightly think of many ways to get unarmed damage up higher from there, after all.
Technically, you could get a little higher if you were a cyclops or bear shapeshifter (due to strength being one or two higher respectively).
However, that said, it's an extremely specific way of going about things, and not necessarily in fitting the flavor of the kung fu master.
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Just a nit pick.
I would not allow striking calluses on your feet. Either your boot us making contact, or you are bare foot. Always.
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I'd say the calluses prevent you from hurting yourself and therefore allow you to strike much harder.
It's the difference between kicking someone with sneakers and doing it with steel toed work boots.
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Striking calluoses are oddly worded. You can buy 2 pairs, and each pair is +1 DV but the implication is your DV doesn't benefit from both pairs as one pair goes on your hands and one pair goes on your feet. But depending on how you read it you could come away with two pairs is +2 DV.
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Just a nit pick.
I would not allow striking calluses on your feet. Either your boot us making contact, or you are bare foot. Always.
The way it's worded, it says you get +1DV per pair, and it says they can go on both hands and feet. It calls out four limbs on an ordinary metahuman that you can put a callus on, and says the DV bonus is "per pair." I can't conclude anything other than that it was meant to stack, unless that line was there just for that metavariant human that has six arms or whatever. If a justification is in order, yes, only a foot or a leg is contacting, but if you're going off of only whether or not the limb has a striking callus, why wouldn't just one fist having it give you the damage? When you have more, it also gives you more freedom to strike with whichever limb is poised to do the most damage. It's not that my fists do more damage because my feet have calluses, but my fists do more damage because I'm using them when they would deal more damage, and my opponent has more limbs to worry about that are deadly weapons giving them less ability to defend against any one.
But I'd accept a GM ruling either way, after a bit of discussion.
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Just a nit pick.
I would not allow striking calluses on your feet. Either your boot us making contact, or you are bare foot. Always.
The way it's worded, it says you get +1DV per pair, and it says they can go on both hands and feet. It calls out four limbs on an ordinary metahuman that you can put a callus on, and says the DV bonus is "per pair." I can't conclude anything other than that it was meant to stack, unless that line was there just for that metavariant human that has six arms or whatever. If a justification is in order, yes, only a foot or a leg is contacting, but if you're going off of only whether or not the limb has a striking callus, why wouldn't just one fist having it give you the damage? When you have more, it also gives you more freedom to strike with whichever limb is poised to do the most damage. It's not that my fists do more damage because my feet have calluses, but my fists do more damage because I'm using them when they would deal more damage, and my opponent has more limbs to worry about that are deadly weapons giving them less ability to defend against any one.
But I'd accept a GM ruling either way, after a bit of discussion.
While sold individually, each pair a user has grants
+1 damage for Unarmed Combat.
RAW One hand and one foot or two hands or two feet give +1DV. Two hands and 2 feet +2DV.
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And, for that Indian metavariant human, six hands and two feet grants +4DV.
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And, for that Indian metavariant human, six hands and two feet grants +4DV.
Nartaki :)
Though they are just 4.
To get 6 you need the Changling option.
At least I think that is the case.
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Personally- I don't think more than 1 pair should give you more DV. Yes you can strike with more variety of limbs but we don't add more DV if someone has two raptor feet and 2 spurs because he has more variety to choose from with which to strike. +1 reach as a bonus- ok ,but outright +1 DV, nah.
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Of course, then we're going straight into house rules. Not that I'd argue against more reach on a melee troll. Get kick and that +1 reach, and you can intercept across a 24' line.