Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: MrNovi on <03-03-16/0021:03>
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I will open up by saying I realize there is no *one* right way to do this, and it depends on the character you're trying to build, but...
When building a full mage with the standard priority system, what is the optimal priority layout? I mean in the sense of what gives the most bang for your buck on a typical, generic mage.
Or perhaps more specifically, the pros and cons of Magic(A)-Skills(B) vs Magic(B)-Skills(A). What experience I have suggests to me that those are the big two, and even attributes are but second fiddle to them.
I'm just curious what people who have more experience with the system think.
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To me, priority A is the best choice for magic, not only giving you a magic rating of 6, but also 10 spells and 10 bonus points for skills. Skills and attributes are less important - skills because while you can easily go priority B for them, you don't really need to if you focus on only the most essential of the magical skills, attributes because your main two attributes to boost are willpower and your other drain stat. Sure, you want an average body, decent reaction, and decent intuition, but mages still wind up with at least one or two attributes that can be relegated to dump stats. Resources are only important if you decide to go with magical foci. Metatype is good for Edge, since Edge can not only give you extra dice, but uncap hits (especially important for direct combat spells).
I tend to prefer fiddling around with combat mage builds, so my favored priorities would be A magic, B attributes, C metatype (human, for a 7 edge), D resources (force: 4 combat spell focus), and E skills (covers essential magic skills at a high rating, and lower ratings for "every runner" skills). I know that the last one, skills, is not enough for a lot of people, even though it actually works out to 28 skill points plus any karma purchases - some players have more expansive views on what is "essential".
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To me it depends on how well rounded you want your magician to be. If he is to be able to spellcast, counterspell, assense, conjure, and bind, all at level 6, that is 30 skill points right there. Throw in Alchemy at level 6, astral combat at some lower level, arcania at some lower level, you are looking at 40ish skill points. Then throw in stealth and perception. All of this is hard to fit in anything other than Skills A, Magic B.
That being said, it depends on what you want to do. If you forgo alchemy, astral combat, and summoning, you can easily fit the skills into B or lower. It all just really depends on your character concept, I guess?
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Skills A is, generally speaking, a trap. There are few builds that need that many skills. even Mage/faces don't really.
MAG A is IMO the best choice because you maximize magic, extra skills, and spells without having to drop your Edge for more MAG.
To me it depends on how well rounded you want your magician to be. If he is to be able to spellcast, counterspell, assense, conjure, and bind, all at level 6, that is 30 skill points right there. Throw in Alchemy at level 6, astral combat at some lower level, arcania at some lower level, you are looking at 40ish skill points. Then throw in stealth and perception. All of this is hard to fit in anything other than Skills A, Magic B.
Astral Combat and Banishing are pretty bad, Alchemy is hit or miss (usually miss) and Arcana is of neglible use (and virtually none at chargen).
Assensing is a good skill, but it tests versus a flat threshold, not opposed, so maxing it is unnecessary. You'll want high INT anyway.
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To me it depends on how well rounded you want your magician to be. If he is to be able to spellcast, counterspell, assense, conjure, and bind, all at level 6, that is 30 skill points right there. Throw in Alchemy at level 6, astral combat at some lower level, arcania at some lower level, you are looking at 40ish skill points. Then throw in stealth and perception. All of this is hard to fit in anything other than Skills A, Magic B.
You know, you are allowed to have skills at ranks lower than 6. ;D
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Yeah, Skill B usually is enough. Attributes are also a lot more important.
With sum-to-ten I'd give Magic and Attributes A and Skills C
A core build can work with Attributes A, Skills B, Magic C, Human B, Resources E
You lose out on free spells, but that is well compensated with one skill group at 5
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what's your final goal?
Lots of spells?
Physically active (high attributes)?
Can actually DO things (skills)?
You can't have it all, so you have to figure out where to start. That will tell you where your piorities should lie.
What is the base concept of your character? Other then "he's a mage"
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To me, priority A is the best choice for magic, not only giving you a magic rating of 6, but also 10 spells and 10 bonus points for skills. Skills and attributes are less important - skills because while you can easily go priority B for them, you don't really need to if you focus on only the most essential of the magical skills, attributes because your main two attributes to boost are willpower and your other drain stat. Sure, you want an average body, decent reaction, and decent intuition, but mages still wind up with at least one or two attributes that can be relegated to dump stats. Resources are only important if you decide to go with magical foci. Metatype is good for Edge, since Edge can not only give you extra dice, but uncap hits (especially important for direct combat spells).
I tend to prefer fiddling around with combat mage builds, so my favored priorities would be A magic, B attributes, C metatype (human, for a 7 edge), D resources (force: 4 combat spell focus), and E skills (covers essential magic skills at a high rating, and lower ratings for "every runner" skills). I know that the last one, skills, is not enough for a lot of people, even though it actually works out to 28 skill points plus any karma purchases - some players have more expansive views on what is "essential".
100% concur.
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I wouldn't generally edge to uncap hits honestly. I prefer to set a high limit with reagents and post-edge if I got a dismal showing.
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I will open up by saying I realize there is no *one* right way to do this, and it depends on the character you're trying to build, but...
When building a full mage with the standard priority system, what is the optimal priority layout? I mean in the sense of what gives the most bang for your buck on a typical, generic mage.
Or perhaps more specifically, the pros and cons of Magic(A)-Skills(B) vs Magic(B)-Skills(A). What experience I have suggests to me that those are the big two, and even attributes are but second fiddle to them.
I'm just curious what people who have more experience with the system think.
Generically? Magic A, Skills/Attributes B/C, Meta/Resources D/E. With the skill points from Magic A you can get by with Skills C if you really want to, but Skills B won't go to waste, it comes down to how much do you value your Reaction and Intuition stats, and if your table has a stat min. Meta vs Resources comes down to Edge vs Foci. If you go Resources E you're going to be dumping 10 Karma into Nuyen to get your basic runner kit. You go Meta E, you're giving up a couple points of Edge, at least for a human. If you're in a game with a couple points of Background count consistently, you're better off with the Edge IMO.
Elf or Dwarf Meta human mages turn out fairly well too. You're swapping Meta and Stat priorities around essentially, if you build to a particular races stats you can build a mechanically optimal character too.
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Yeah, Skill B usually is enough. Attributes are also a lot more important.
With sum-to-ten I'd give Magic and Attributes A and Skills C
A core build can work with Attributes A, Skills B, Magic C, Human B, Resources E
You lose out on free spells, but that is well compensated with one skill group at 5
Usually this, but need to post my updated Troll (Minotaur) Combat Mage. He is mostly there to kill things/anti magic. But he is really good at making things dead.
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Thanks for the responses. I appreciate the advice. And enjoy seeing how wildly some of it varies. :)
I have a fairly forgiving GM and a somewhat RP focused table. As to the character, I don't know just yet. The GM has made noises about starting a new campaign soon and we're all looking at various possible new characters. And I haven't actually played that many characters in Shadowrun, so I'm not quite sure what all works well.
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You want Magic 6 either by A or meta with extra points spell casting 6 with specialization, counterspelling with specialization, summoning with specialization assensing with specialization at least
then pick perception sneaking unarmed for touch spells some sort of combat skill like automatics other skills as dependent what you want to be
like ritual spell casting / binding / alchemy / Artificing / disenchanting / astral combat
Arcana just needs one rank mostly
As for spell selections:
Mage blast can act as your "dispelling"
Fashion is good as it can make any type of armor into looking like something else
Heal is a go to spell
Detect enemies/life is always good so you dont get ambushed
Sterilize is also good to cover your material links
Lightning ball is a good combat spell to have as it affects electronics too
Then from there you can pick based on what kind of mage you want to be ie illusions / mind magic / combat would need Resources of at least C for a rating 3 power focus
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Touch spells aren't worth it since there's no "concentration check" or AoO to take if you cast while in melee combat.
Better to have a spell good at all ranges imo.
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@Whiskeyjack
Only the direct spells.
As limited spell, Punch is a very, very strong option. Force 10 with minimum drain is delicious.
And depending on whether you need to make an unarmed attack beforehand vs. the targets REA+INT - you gain all your successes to damage. Usually that's enough to take out even heavy armor opposition.
If you want this damage at range, call up a Spirit of Men and have it be the caster with its enhanced mobility.
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The way I see it the most powerful magical skills are spell casting and summoning this already covers most of the fun things mages can do. So a mage can even go with Skills E and Magic A to leverage the bonus magical skills.
That said the concept of mage is very broad and there are many kind of possible mages. Try to answer what kind of magical skills do you want to use and what other things than magic do you want to do. There is nothing wrong with a mage that actually use a gun, or even a knife in combat. Is your character a combatant? an infiltrator? Perhaps a face? These change the build. The way I see it magic is a resource just like nuyen and you can do any roll as a mage depending on your build.
What you really need is magic C+ and if you take a low priority in magic you are encouraged to take a higher priority in metatype so that you can have magic 6. I find magic A and B very rewarding as they also give skills and I love skills.
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counterspelling with specialization, summoning with specialization assensing with specialization at least
I'll disagree here, those are areas where I don't feel Specialization gives you the bang for your buck compared to Spellcasting or Binding.
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When building a full mage with the standard priority system, what is the optimal priority layout? I mean in the sense of what gives the most bang for your buck on a typical, generic mage.
Or perhaps more specifically, the pros and cons of Magic(A)-Skills(B) vs Magic(B)-Skills(A). What experience I have suggests to me that those are the big two, and even attributes are but second fiddle to them.
Magic-A = 6 Magic, 10 Spells, 10 Skills
Skills-B = 36 Skills, 5 Groups
Magic-B = 4 Magic, 7 Spells, 8 Skills
Skills-A = 46 Skills, 10 Groups
Is your Mage attempting to do something else extremely well? Because unless he's holding down 3 roles or something, then Skills-A just means he's going to be sacrificing somewhere else to do so.
Magicians Need Spells so to me, Magic-A is "almost" a lock for my choices.
Really, if your just focusing on being the MAGE & not some sort of other combo then I would probably choose the following.
Magic - A4
Attr - B3
Skills - C2
Resources - D1
Meta - E0
So you start out as a Human with 3 Edge, enough to survive for sure & pull out the rare powerful nuke.
6 Magic & 10 Spells is VERY useful at the beginning & I'd still be tempted to buy 1-2 more.
Attributes-20 + Intuition Tradition gives you = Bod-3, Agi-2, Rea-3, Str-1, Wil-5, Log-3, Int-6, Cha-5
Skills-28+10+2G (Basic Strong Magic w/ Social OR something w/ a little Combat/Stealth tossed in)
Automatics-0 (Or 4+1S)
Assensing-6 (Or 3)
Binding-6+1S
Counterspelling-6
Perception-6 (Or 4)
Sorcery-6+1S
Summoning-6
Group-Influence-2 (Or Stealth-2)
10 Spells: (Some that I find most useful)
Combat x2 (Ball Lightning, Blast, Concussion, FireBall, Lightning Bolt, Mana Bolt, Stun Ball, Stun Bolt)
Detection x2 (Analyze Device, Analyze Truth, Clairaudience, Detect Enemies XR, Detect Life, Mind Probe)
Health x2 (Heal, Increase Intuition)
Illusion x2 (Chaotic World, Improved Invisibility, Physical Mask, Stench)
Manipulation x2 (Barrier, Control Thoughts, Elemental Aura, Fling, Influence, Levitate, Mob Mind, Sterilize)
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counterspelling with specialization, summoning with specialization assensing with specialization at least
I'll disagree here, those are areas where I don't feel Specialization gives you the bang for your buck compared to Spellcasting or Binding.
yvmv if you want your team mind controlled or your mage to miss out on an important piece of cyber ware or if that hobo is awakened that's up to you
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counterspelling with specialization, summoning with specialization assensing with specialization at least
I'll disagree here, those are areas where I don't feel Specialization gives you the bang for your buck compared to Spellcasting or Binding.
yvmv if you want your team mind controlled or your mage to miss out on an important piece of cyber ware or if that hobo is awakened that's up to you
Assensing is a threshold, everyone wants INT, and a spec in Aura Reading is so cheap, it doesn't need to be maxed.
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Really, if your just focusing on being the MAGE & not some sort of other combo then I would probably choose the following.
Magic - A4
Attr - B3
Skills - C2
Resources - D1
Meta - E0
So you start out as a Human with 3 Edge, enough to survive for sure & pull out the rare powerful nuke.
6 Magic & 10 Spells is VERY useful at the beginning & I'd still be tempted to buy 1-2 more.
Attributes-20 + Intuition Tradition gives you = Bod-3, Agi-2, Rea-3, Str-1, Wil-5, Log-3, Int-6, Cha-5
Skills-28+10+2G (Basic Strong Magic w/ Social OR something w/ a little Combat/Stealth tossed in)
Automatics-0 (Or 4+1S)
Assensing-6 (Or 3)
Binding-6+1S
Counterspelling-6
Perception-6 (Or 4)
Sorcery-6+1S
Summoning-6
Group-Influence-2 (Or Stealth-2)
10 Spells: (Some that I find most useful)
Combat x2 (Ball Lightning, Blast, Concussion, FireBall, Lightning Bolt, Mana Bolt, Stun Ball, Stun Bolt)
Detection x2 (Analyze Device, Analyze Truth, Clairaudience, Detect Enemies XR, Detect Life, Mind Probe)
Health x2 (Heal, Increase Intuition)
Illusion x2 (Chaotic World, Improved Invisibility, Physical Mask, Stench)
Manipulation x2 (Barrier, Control Thoughts, Elemental Aura, Fling, Influence, Levitate, Mob Mind, Sterilize)
For a combat mage that will be using guns, I'd throw in a bit of Alchemy and a couple preps. Combat sense or Analyze Device maybe. Shuffle some of the Cha over to Agility for shooty/sneaky mages.
I'd add Increase Reflexes to your list too.
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Combat sense
I'd add Increase Reflexes to your list too.
Doh, not sure how I left either of those off the list.