Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Tarislar on <03-06-16/0037:00>
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I keep seeing people say that you can't play a Human Martial Artist (Boxer) type now because Cyber &/or Trolls will always be better.
This was my attempt at making a rough draft of how to assemble such a character.
Let me know what you think.
Attr-A-24
Magic-B-6+4
Skills-C-28/2
Meta-D-Human-3
Res-E-$6K
Bod 5
Agi 5 (7-ish)
Rea 4 (5)
Str 6 (10)
Wil 5
Log 1
Int 5
Cha 1
Edg 5
Mag 6
Itv 9 (10) + 2D
6S-LongArms-Rifles
6S-Sneaking-Urban
6-Disguise
6-Perception
6-Unarmed Combat
2G-Athletics
Athletes Way
0.25 = Agility Boost-1
0.5 = Combat Sense-1
0.5 = Critical Strike - UAC
2.5 = Improved Strength-4
1.5 = Improved Reflexes
0.0 = Killing Hands
0.5 = Penetrating Strike-2
0.25 = Spirit Claw
Karma-25+25-50
10-Cash-20K
11-Contacts (14)
4-Jack of All Trades
5-Mentor Spirit-Shark
20-Way of the Athlete
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It's not so much saying you can't, as it's asking what you're giving up by taking the "harder road." Which, I might add, you've done a good job of here.
This character would enjoy Prototype Transhuman to not waste so much PP on otherwise-cheap STR buffs ;D Which, I get that would be hard into fitting into this build, but I have to point it out.
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Thanks.
I thought 11 DV with a -2 AP, being able to match the best AR's, was a solid DV. 14DV v/s Spirits was just gravy & too cheap to ignore.
Where is the Transhuman stuff from? I don't have every book yet.
I figured with his Sneaking, Disguise, & Unarmed skills being what they are that he's fine w/o a pistol, & as such went LongArms to give him some very damaging options with Rifles/Shotguns when he actually needs a firearm.
The only thing that I was a little disappointed in was the double 1's.
There are ways around that of course by sacrificing Bod &/or Will or Edge by swapping Meta & Resources.
I'd probably drop Disguise for a social skill if I had 3 Charisma or so.
The other thing I considered was shifting from Reflexes-1 to some levels in Adrenaline Boost & something else.
With 10 Drain dice he can take resist 3 levels or so fairly easily. Add another level of Combat Sense & I'm ahead a bit with a 1/4 point to spare.
The downside is less room to grow. But this is all theoretical at this point.
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Slight tweak to make him a bit less specialized defensively & able to be more social.
Attr-A-24
Magic-B-6+4
Skills-C-28/2
Res-D-$50K
Meta-E-Human-1
Bod 3
Agi 5 (7-ish)
Rea 4 (5)
Str 6 (10)
Wil 3
Log 3
Int 5
Cha 3
Edg 3
Mag 6
Itv 9 (10) + 2D
6S-LongArms-Rifles
6S-Sneaking-Urban
6-Etiquette
6-Perception
6-Unarmed Combat
2G-Athletics
Athletes Way
0.25 = Agility Boost-1
0.5 = Combat Sense-1
0.5 = Critical Strike - UAC
2.5 = Improved Strength-4
1.5 = Improved Reflexes
0.0 = Killing Hands
0.5 = Penetrating Strike-2
0.25 = Spirit Claw
Karma-25+25-50
12-Contacts (21)
4-Jack of All Trades
5-Mentor Spirit-Shark
20-Way of the Athlete
8-Bind Chi Focus (Astral Perception)
1-Remaining Karma
So the reduced Bod, Wil, & Edg certainly makes him a bit easier to kill & can't shrug off Drain or Drugs as well.
But, over all I think he's more balanced with those changes.
Extra Karma, a Foci, the ability to take a single skill the minute the game starts, all good things IMHO.
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Prototyoe Transhuman is a PQ from Chrome Flesh.
So what's the point of all the Etiquette. Just seems like dead weight if your party has a halfway decent face. I really think a melee guy will want BOD 5.
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Improved Physical Ability(STR) costs 1 per level.
Athlete's Way allow a discount to the 1st level.
That would be 3.5PP for 4 levels not the 2.5 you are showing.
It appears you discounted 3 levels of Improved Physical Ability(STR).
Doesn't work that way.
You can only discount one level of a multi-level power.
You don't need astral perception to begin with.
You should take a martial arts and specialize in it to get a +2 when using a maneuver.
6 AGI and 5 STR base means you hit more often. And it also means you move faster- you need to be able to close if you want to do melee.
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So what's the point of all the Etiquette. Just seems like dead weight if your party has a halfway decent face. I really think a melee guy will want BOD 5.
None really, just swapped out disguise for something else that would also work in getting close to people & not being socially awkward.
If you have a different suggestion I'm all ears.
I did want the Bod/Will/Edge of 5.
This is just an option for those that would complain about the Double 1's of the original build.
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Improved Physical Ability(STR) costs 1 per level.
Athlete's Way allow a discount to the 1st level.
That would be 3.5PP for 4 levels not the 2.5 you are showing.
It appears you discounted 3 levels of Improved Physical Ability(STR).
Doesn't work that way.
You can only discount one level of a multi-level power.
Ah crap. I forgot that part. Well that blows.
I do have an idea involving a Mystic Adept for the same concept with a sustained spell, but I was trying for pure physad to start.
You don't need astral perception to begin with.
You should take a martial arts and specialize in it to get a +2 when using a maneuver.
I considered that but I don't own R&G so left it out since I didn't want to deal w/ having to search to find the specific rules.
6 AGI and 5 STR base means you hit more often. And it also means you move faster- you need to be able to close if you want to do melee.
Yeah, I know, but this was a test in seeing what a Human can get to in raw DV.
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Look up Prototype Transhuman. 1 free Essence of bioware. :)
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...one thing i notice is the character has more than the 25 karma allowed at chargen for positive qualities
Adept Way: 20
Mentor Spirit : 5
Jack of All Trades: 4
That comes to 29 Karma.
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Adept Way does not count towards positive qualities.
It's like Martial Arts .. it's a quality but doesn't count toward positive limit.
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Here's my go at it- he starts out dirt poor as he only has 6k period. I suppose you could get rid of either counterstrike or finishing move to free up 5 karma for nuyen or to take In Debt.
Meta B Human(7)
Attributes A 24
Magic D Adept 2
Skills C 28/2
Resources E 6000
BOD 4(5) INIT 12+2d6
AGI 6(7) M-Limit 4
REA 5(7) P-Limit 8
STR 5 S-Limit 5
WIL 3 Edge 5
LOG 2 ESS 6
INT 5 MR 6
CHA 2
QUALITIES
Agile Defender
Athlete's Way
Martial Arts, Wildcat(Counterstrike & Finishing Move)
Mentor Spirit (Shark)
Revels in Murder
25 points Negative Qualities
ADEPT POWERS
Attribute Boost (AGI) [1] 0.25
Combat Sense [5] 3
Improved Physical Attribute (AGI) [1] Discounted-.5
Improved Physical Attribute (BOD) [1] Discounted-.5
Improved Physical Attribute (REA) [1] Discounted-.5
Improved Reflexes [1] 1.5
Improved Sense-Ultrasound 0.25
Killing Hands Free-Mentor
Skills
Archery|Crossbow 6|+2
Perception|Visual 6|+2
Sneaking|Urban 6|+2
Unarmed Attack|Wildcat 6|+2
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Adept Way does not count towards positive qualities.
It's like Martial Arts .. it's a quality but doesn't count toward positive limit.
...where's that in the rules? I've avoided it because of the fact it took 20 of the 25 karma limit.
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Adept Way does not count towards positive qualities.
It's like Martial Arts .. it's a quality but doesn't count toward positive limit.
...where's that in the rules? I've avoided it because of the fact it took 20 of the 25 karma limit.
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=17166.msg431661#msg431661
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Adept Way does not count towards positive qualities.
It's like Martial Arts .. it's a quality but doesn't count toward positive limit.
...where's that in the rules? I've avoided it because of the fact it took 20 of the 25 karma limit.
It's author intent, which is about as good as it'll get given the state of the FAQ/errata.
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Adept Way does not count towards positive qualities.
It's like Martial Arts .. it's a quality but doesn't count toward positive limit.
...where's that in the rules? I've avoided it because of the fact it took 20 of the 25 karma limit.
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=17166.msg431661#msg431661
...thanks. Still a big Karma expenditure though.
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Yes, a big karma expenditure.
If you're in a short campaign- probably not worth it.
If you are going to be in it for the long haul you could be gaining up .5pp for every 2 magic levels in addition to whatever other effects it gives you. Mysads in particular benefit as they normally do not gain PP after chargen unless they make the sacrifice to take a PP instead of any of the other options available to them at initiation. It also opens up some metamagics/enhancements that are interesting.
And if you are doing a cyber-adept, Burnout's Way at 15 points does wonders.
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...yeah for a pure boxer adept, the only suitable ones to take are Athlete or Warrior. Warrior gives you more bonuses for offensive/defensive powers but the bonus for the Improved Attribute power is hard to pass up if the character is looking to use adept powers instead of augmentations to boost themselves.
Back in 4E I actually has a Boxer Adept who I played a bit. She ended up fiarly tough at Chargen as that edition used build points instead of priority levels. and one could have up to 35 points in qualities. The downside was (until Street Magic) Adept improvement was brutal as to get a power point you had to pay karma to both initiate and increase your magic attribute. Even then, the PP rule in Street Magic was "optional". That was one of the things which soured me on 4 and I caused me to go back to 3E.
I took a stab at trying to build her in 5E but it's tricky, especially without using one of the ways as I tried to keep her as close to the original concept as I could. The only major change was I swapped out Pilot Ground Vehicle for Longarms skill as she does not have enough starting resources for a vehicle (and a cajun with her trusty huntin' rifle just made sense). Alas, she doesn't have the high strength the sample builds in the thread have (7 instead of 10).
The major drawback of a non augmented human unarmed adept is there is little to increase the dice pool until one begins to earn karma, and then it is really expensive either improving skills past 6, and/or increasing Agility through Initiation and PPs. Having a high DV is nice and all, but if your opponent can dodge a good number of of your attacks, it doesn't matter very much.
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The sample character that the OP posted has DP 13 plus whatever attribute boost adds, most likely 15DP.
My sample charter with attribute boost probably has 17DP (19 if counterstriking/finishing move)
Since the next 2 PP will increase Combat Sense to 8 and add Increased attribute (STR)[1] my DP wouldn't improve and we're talking 104 Karma... on the other hand improving unarmed if you wanted from 6 to 12 would only be 114- just ten more karma.
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....the character I rebuilt has a DP of 12 that was as far as I could get it, as the "Ways" in 3E/4E were more fluff and didn't give bonuses to purchasing powers. She also did not take a Mentor Spirit so no "free" powers or extra bonuses. The only one that fits with her background would be Gator and the benefits (+1 to intimidation and Inertia Strike) really don't work well (the first one particularly useless because of her low CHA). As she was a "disciplined pugilist", any mentor that involved a berserk reaction (like Shark) wouldn't be a good fit.
I would have also expected the "Classic Boxing" martial art to be centred more around the types of punches and moves one would actually use in the ring (jab, cross, uppercut, clinch, "rope a dope") The only technique that makes sense is the Feint (Haymaker would be more appropriate to an undisciplined style of fighting like brawling). Any attack that involves a called shot would be worthless with her low pool.
The average hits she would get off a pool of 12 could easily be countered by someone defending against the attack. As she was more into the power of her punch, she has Penetrating Strike 2 and Critical Strike giving her a punch of 8 DV and -2 AP.
In a lower powered/street level campaign she'd probably do pretty well. In most standard campaigns and in Missions where characters/NPCs have higher defence pools, not so much.
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In missions play about 13-14DP is needed against average opponents using full defense so 12 is a bit low. the OP's and my sample character's would have an easier time with 15 and 17DPs. Of course, not every NPC should be in full defense every time you attack.
Take the mage in Chasin the Wind..his initiative is 6 +1d6: half the time he doesn't have the 10 initiative needed to do the interrupt. Even if he has the ten, if he don't roll 5 or 6, it's the only action he does for that combat turn. And without full defense that mage goes from 13DP to 6DP, huge difference.
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Meta B Human(7)
Magic D Adept 2
ADEPT POWERS
Attribute Boost (AGI) [1] 0.25
Improved Physical Attribute (AGI) [1] Discounted-.5
Does Boost & Improved stack?
Also, Flip Meta & Magic around, 4 more skill points.
I'd find a better way. If you can't stack STR like I originally tried, then there are much better options out there.
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Meta B Human(7)
Magic D Adept 2
ADEPT POWERS
Attribute Boost (AGI) [1] 0.25
Improved Physical Attribute (AGI) [1] Discounted-.5
Does Boost & Improved stack?
Also, Flip Meta & Magic around, 4 more skill points.
I'd find a better way. If you can't stack STR like I originally tried, then there are much better options out there.
Originally Elf so Meta B Magic D better than the other way around but for humans your right Meta D Magic B
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In missions play about 13-14DP is needed against average opponents using full defense so 12 is a bit low. the OP's and my sample character's would have an easier time with 15 and 17DPs. Of course, not every NPC should be in full defense every time you attack.
Take the mage in Chasin the Wind..his initiative is 6 +1d6: half the time he doesn't have the 10 initiative needed to do the interrupt. Even if he has the ten, if he don't roll 5 or 6, it's the only action he does for that combat turn. And without full defense that mage goes from 13DP to 6DP, huge difference.
...yeah 4E was a bit different as skills had a lower cap and you had to purchase your MA from 1 with build points. Rarely did a character ever start with an MA higher than 5 as the cost for that last rating point was effectively doubled (for all attributes). Hence there were a lots of 4's and 5s.
This is where returning to the priority system improved the situation as if you selected an Adept at say priority C or B you automatically received a magic attribute rating (that could be increased to a maximum of of 6 using Special Attribute points) as well as bonus rating levels for one skill. Still, there is a limit of 1 attribute at rating 6 so for an adept focused in unarmed combat, it becomes a tradeoff, of doing more damage or having a higher pool. The Ways are a good means for getting a little more "mileage" out of purchasing powers but still a hefty Karma investment. Even though they do not count against the maximum for positive qualities, it pretty much limits which other qualities one takes especially if you want a a bit more in resources than the base 6,000¥, A rating 4 ID a couple licences and one month of low lifestyle can set you back almost 15,000¥ alone (wish they would have left Low Lifestyle priced at 1,000¥). Doesn't leave a lot for other gear like armour, weapons, and a halfway decent commlink even if you apply the full 10 Karma to resources.
As to the character, here's how far I got before I gave up:
Hurricane Hannah (5E rebuild):
Priorities A: Attributes, B: Magic, C: Skills, D: Metatype, E: Resources
BOD: 5
AGIL: 5 (6)
STR 6 (7)
REA: 4 (5)
CHA: 2
INT: 4
LOG: 2
WIL: 4
EDG: 5
MAG: 6
Init: 9 + 2D6, Physical Track: 11, Stun Track: 10
Limits: Physical: 8, Mental: 4, Social: 5
Qualities (Positive +21):
Adept (F)
High Pain Tolerance: 2 (14)
Natural Athlete (7)
(Negative -23)
Uneducated (-8)
Common/Mild allergy to Processed Soy (-10)
National SIN: CAS (-5)
Contacts:
Clancy [Fixer/Promoter] 4/3 (1 Karma)
Fast Eddie [Bookie] 3/2 (5 Karma)
Skills:
Computer 1 [DP 3] (needed to use Commlink)
Etiquette 3 (Street) [DP 5/7]
Longarms 6 [DP 12]
Perception (visual) [DP 8/10]
Sneaking: 4 [DP 10]
Throwing Weapons (Blades) 5 [DP 11/13]
Unarmed Combat 6 [DP 12]
Skill Group: Athletics: 2
Gymnastics DP 10 (modified by Natural Athlete Quality)
Running DP 11 (modified by Natural Athlete Quality)
Swimming DP 9
Knowledge:
Arcadian/Cajun N
English: (Speak): 2 [DP 6/8]
Bars and Clubs (Low Class) 2 [DP 6/8]
Cuisine (Cajun) 1 [DP 5/7]
Sports (UFC) 1 [DP 5/7]
Underworld 2 [DP 6]
Adept Powers (6PP)
Combat Sense 2
Critical Strike (Unarmed)
Improved Physical Attribute 1 (AGI)
Improved Physical Attribute 1 (STR)
Improved Reflexes 1
Killing Hands
Penetrating Strike 2
Martial Arts : none
Augmentations: none
Resources 26,000 (10 Karma).