Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: TheMusketMan on <03-24-16/1753:03>
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So, I'm thinking about starting a new game in Dragonfall with a Dwarven Decker, two things I never associate with. Now, I am a massive roleplayer and I like to have all the facts about regions, races, lifestyles, etc. And Dwarves are something I don't have too much knowledge about despite research so I'm gonna put what I know here and hope the good Runners of the Shadowgrid can help me out.
-Dwarves are a product of birth, not goblinization ( Or Awakening, as more PC people would put it.) But rather of UGE, which is human mothers bearing Elven or Dwarven children.
- Average height of a Dwarf is just under 4 feet.
- Assumed Life Expectancy is well over 100 years, but that remains to be proven.
-Unlike Humans with Dwarfism, True Dwarves have larger upper bodies than lower bodies.
-Have thermographic vision.
- Superior immune systems to Humans.
Now what I'm still unclear about is the specifics. How do Dwarves age? How do male and females differ? How do Dwarven physiques differ?
That last question is due to the fact that Is0bel, the dark skinned dwarven decker from Shadowrun Hong Kong, her portrait shows her having a slender face. Does that mean her body is slender as well, not stout and stubby like the traditional dwarf?
(http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/shadowrun.gamepedia.com/3/3d/Npc_dwarffemale_is0bel.png?version=4f1b15864eac4c4cde7787ef2df0a431)
In this image, Is0bel is depicted as even though being short, she is also slim and fully developed.
(http://www.voosreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/shadowrun-hong-kong-team.jpg)
Does this mean that even though Dwarves are incredibly short, they can still be physically diverse and stray from the norm of 'short and stout but strong'?
Let me know what you guys think and any other information on Dwarves if possible.
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Regarding size here is a link to a comparison chart I usually go by: Chart (https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjdsLzHrNrLAhUJw2MKHUeFBrIQjhwIBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdirkloechel.deviantart.com%2Fart%2FShadowrun-Races-Comparison-Chart-508499567&psig=AFQjCNGNpwX1Ko0HzZQPzGdpvu0uyl-mXg&ust=1458944057082734)
I'd say that dwarves have as much variation within their genome as humans and elves do.
Also remember that dwarves are denser than humans so they are going to be somewhat heavier and stronger than they may look. The ones running around looking like a walking fireplug are going to be those at the upper end of body and strength.
As to how they age, IIRC I don't think they tend to show their age until late in life but I could be wrong on that. The earlier editions went into metatype traits more than the more recent editions.
But the bottom line is that Dwarves are awesome and that is all you really need to know. ;D
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Thanks for the chart, that's really helpful! Think I'm gonna start a new game now.
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Dwarf age hasn't really been explored. Like Elves, Dwarves came out of UGE, so the oldest are around 67 now: Seattle's oldest Dwarf started drawing Social Security recently which caused the Humanis Polliclub all kinds of fits. An Elf his age still looks 25 and flawless, while Dwarves tend to age gradually... but some seem to be "born old", going grey by the end of highschool, with full beads and so on.
It's something I'd like to explore at some point. You'll probably be seeing Dwarves as a whole get a bit more airtime in the future. They've been quiet for four editions, it's time to do *something* with the poor lil' guys.
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Art for dwarves hasn't been very consistent, and for female dwarves has been especially odd -- fantasy artists seem to rebel against creating stocky women, or ones who show hair anywhere other than the top of their heads. So the art maybe has shifted the original des emotions over the years?
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Shadowrun Dwarves as a whole seem a lot more... not sure graceful is the right word, elegant, dignified than other dwarves like Tolkien and Dragon Age and stuff. Short, hairy, and gross seems to be a common theme.
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Because dwarfs in Shadowrun are people, instead of a stereotype. Whereas the dwarfs in things like Forgotten Realms are all drunken, grumpy Scotsmen with a few notable exceptions (and exemplars as well) and in other settings the trope is subverted (while almost all dwarfs still seem to fit the same paradigm), in Shadowrun dwarfs are just a different type of people.
You've got your skinny people, your tall people, your short people, etc. Now, apply the dwarf template to it. There can be skinny dwarfs just like there's skinny anything else. They might not be the norm, but still quite possible.
While I don't generally play dwarfs (I get tired of people trying to shoehorn me into comedic relief when I do), hearing that more air-time is coming their way sounds quite fun.
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While I don't generally play dwarfs (I get tired of people trying to shoehorn me into comedic relief when I do), hearing that more air-time is coming their way sounds quite fun.
I'm assuming you're referring to the tabletop and not the cRPGs?
I've only played the cRPGs and Play By Post on another site, but I'm interested in Tabletop.
Honestly the only reason I even know about Shadowrun is that I saw Shadowrun Returns on a summer steam sale for 2 bucks. So I thought what the hell and bought it. And about 3 hours later I was in love and I have been ever since.
If what you're referring to is Play By Post though, that would not fly in most roleplays I've been in, trying to shoehorn someone's character into something like that would get you swiftly kicked out.
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Regarding size here is a link to a comparison chart I usually go by: Chart (https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjdsLzHrNrLAhUJw2MKHUeFBrIQjhwIBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdirkloechel.deviantart.com%2Fart%2FShadowrun-Races-Comparison-Chart-508499567&psig=AFQjCNGNpwX1Ko0HzZQPzGdpvu0uyl-mXg&ust=1458944057082734)
I'd say that dwarves have as much variation within their genome as humans and elves do.
Also remember that dwarves are denser than humans so they are going to be somewhat heavier and stronger than they may look. The ones running around looking like a walking fireplug are going to be those at the upper end of body and strength.
My favorite female dwarf: http://imgur.com/TmwoVXo (http://imgur.com/TmwoVXo)
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It's something I'd like to explore at some point. You'll probably be seeing Dwarves as a whole get a bit more airtime in the future. They've been quiet for four editions, it's time to do *something* with the poor lil' guys.
Awesome! I feel like dwarves are the forgettable meta. Elves have at least 2 full nations where they're the majority on top of evoking all the traditional elf stereotypes, Orks have the Ork Underground narrative, and Trolls are known and popular just from their size and stats. Dwarves just fall through the cracks.
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Falling through the cracks is kind of a goal for dwarves. By an large, the dwarven subculture wants to be able to live prosperous, productive lives within the greater metahuman society, without dealing with the drek and backlash of racial politics that the elves revel in exploiting and the orcs and trolls keep waging loud, constant, and often violent battle with. Not being noticed is their best defense.
My take on dwarven aging is purely my head canon, so take if you like it or leave it if you don't.
Elves age at about the same rate as humans, until they just stop outright in their early twenties and stay young and beautiful almost indefinitely.
I have a similar take on dwarves, except instead of stopping in their twenties, the aging process stops or tremendously slows in their late forties or early fifties.
This ties into their nature as a strong, stout race.
Most people put the "physical peak" somewhere in the twenties. That isn't entirely true. Different aspects of human physical performance peak at different points in life. Agility, reaction, recuperation, flexibility? These tend to peak at a younger age. Twenties, or earlier for flexibility. However, maintaining an active lifestyle, raw physical strength for an adult male human peaks in the forties. If you've ever heard the term "dad strength," it's a real phenomenon.
Elves and dwarves optimize and prolong an idealized form of two separate peaks in the metahuman lifespan; elves the quickness of youth and dwarves the toughness of age.
As to the specific case of deckers? Personal experience means nothing, but I've only seen folks play dwarves in technical roles. Ever. Riggers, combat medics, and deckers. That's it. In the rare instance I see people bother with dwarves, that is.
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Killing them off would be an option I would support.
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Killing them off would be an option I would support.
Racist scum (in aspect to the game/RP only, don't want this to be taken as a personal attack).
Personally, love a lady I can pick up and have fun with! Or be picked up and tossed by, if she be an orc like Gobbet (minus the rats).
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(None taken)
The only good halfers are the flat headed ones I keep in my den as bedtables. That or dead.
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I thought the dwarfs actually had a nation somewhere or at least their own district inside Seattle underground. I believe it's briefly mentioned in Ashes
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Luxembourg. Sort of.
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As to the specific case of deckers? Personal experience means nothing, but I've only seen folks play dwarves in technical roles. Ever. Riggers, combat medics, and deckers. That's it. In the rare instance I see people bother with dwarves, that is.
Which is odd given that, reach disadvantage aside, they have good combat stats.
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The extra willpower in particular is nice. For a heavily armored character, you'll probably be taking mostly stun, so seven for that extra box can be a magic number, if you're not going for a different maxed stat. Honestly, if you're not looking to get into melee, which you can do fairly safely, I'd say they're overall better in combat than an orc.
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My first Shadowrun character was a Dwarf Street Sam in 2nd edition. Still remember the mayhem after he salvaged that Panther Assault Cannon off of that wrecked Dragon. Good times. :)
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As to the specific case of deckers? Personal experience means nothing, but I've only seen folks play dwarves in technical roles. Ever. Riggers, combat medics, and deckers. That's it. In the rare instance I see people bother with dwarves, that is.
I think it's a holdover from the builder/smith/engineer fantasy tropes around them. If I could've made Hardpoint a something else, I'd've made him a something else (but my job was to match things up to existing art). I kind of hated making him "the rigger" out of the little SR5 crew, but that's what there was to work with (and hey, at least there's a dwarf at all, I guess?).
I've got a couple other dwarfs in a couple other roles in some upcoming fiction, though, if that's any consolation.
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The best part of being a dwarf is other dwarfs. "Fist-bump, bring it in."
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(None taken)
The only good halfers are the flat headed ones I keep in my den as bedtables. That or dead.
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I thought the dwarfs actually had a nation somewhere or at least their own district inside Seattle underground. I believe it's briefly mentioned in Ashes
They got kicked out of the Underground some time ago, which is when it became teh Ork Underground. There's a whole lotta bitterness there. If you pick up Storm Front, you can see it bubble up when the media talks about Prop 23.
Dwarves, as a whole, tend to stay quiet, keep their head down, and do their job, all while trying to not be noticed. As the saying goes, "It's easy to overlook the Dwarf."
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The best part of being a dwarf is other dwarfs. "Fist-bump, bring it in."
And then there's this. Dwarves network with other Dwarves, and there's a silent brotherhood that you know you can count on. Bar brawl breaks out? You know that no Dwarf is gonna clonk you if you're also a Dwarf, and there's a dang good chance that you'll just have somebody take yoru back and you'll flow right into protecting one another. Dwarf goes in for a bank loan and gets a Dwarf loan officer. There'll be some talking for the cameras, but they both know it's getting approved and at generous rates. Dwarf outside the store hungry? Dwar owner quietly has their kid run out there with a meal... he knows the guy'll be good for it down the road.
You just don't get a lot of teh infighting that the others do. (In general. There are, of course, exceptions, because in Shadowrun, there's always room for jerks.)
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Both dwarves and trolls are at about 1% of the population compared to about 16% for each elves and orks. They are statistical outliers. As such, you'll find a much larger variation within the group than the statistically larger groups.
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Uh ... no? The bell curve will be about the same, the range of variations will be the same, but the numbers which are represented is going to be fewer - which can mean that they stand out more, but it sure as hell doesn't mean that there's a 'larger variation' of them.
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First, Wyrm is correct. They won't have a larger variation, it'd just stick out a bit more among a smaller population.
Second, those numbers are bullshit, Joe. Run Faster has the breakdown of the world population by metatype:
Human: 39% (a given)
Ork: 22% (also the fastest growing)
Elf: 15% (makes sense)
Dwarf: 14% (NOT 1%)
Troll: 5% (STILL NOT 1%)
Other: 5% (Metasapients and shapeshifters, mostly; I think SURGE falls under here, maybe Infected)
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Run Faster upped the proportions. I'll admit that 1% was low, but it wasn't 14%. Yea, Seattle is at 2% for each of dwarf and troll.
My point is that their numbers put them as the statistical outliers. Their primary feature is that they are either short or tall. That means that anyone in the other metatype that is either a little too short or a little too tall gets lumped into the dwarf /troll metatypes. So they have all the variations of their own metatype plus all the variations of the other metatypes. But how does the world see them? Just a dwarf of just a troll.
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Seriously?
No.
Short humans and elves and orks don't get lumped into the dwarf metatype. Tall humans, elves and orks don't get lumped into the troll metatype. Dwarfs are a distinct metatype with distinct benefits. Just because someone plays an ork with dwarfism (the condition that afflicts people nowadays, not the UGE kind), doesn't make them a dwarf; they'e just a short ork. Just because some folks are freakishly tall, doesn't mean they have dermal deposits and horns )or the over-long arms) to make them trolls. Orks, elves and humans don't have thermographic vision, which dwarfs and trolls do.
To argue all shorter than average people are dwarfs and all taller than average people are trolls in the canon Shadowrun is flat-out idiotic. If it is something you do at your table, say as much.
Back to the point... Maybe Seattle itself is short on (ha, get it?) the diminutive aspect of metahumanity. They had the Night of Rage, the falling out with the Ork Underground, there easily could have been an exodus. It also isn't impossible for the city to have a higher-than-average human population compared to the world-wide average. Not to mention those percentages you're talking about only cover the SINners, which leaves plenty of undocumented orks and trolls to bring the percentages back in line.
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Falling through the cracks is kind of a goal for dwarves. By an large, the dwarven subculture wants to be able to live prosperous, productive lives within the greater metahuman society, without dealing with the drek and backlash of racial politics that the elves revel in exploiting and the orcs and trolls keep waging loud, constant, and often violent battle with. Not being noticed is their best defense.
This is great IC motivation but really boring to read about OOC and also makes for real weird runner origins. Dwarves should be an interesting character option. The other metas have been given boatloads of interesting details. Hell I think humans have been developed in more interesting ways simply because baseline humanity has to react to all these weird changes to what it means to be human. Dwarves just need a lot of love to catch players' eyes. They're just not portrayed as culturally interesting as it stands and that's somewhat of a death knell for player interest beyond "I want a higher WIL cap".
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And like I mentioned earlier, no-one wants to be the comedic relief. I've seen so many dwarfs get shoehorned into it after the Lord of the Rings films came out.
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First, Wyrm is correct. They won't have a larger variation, it'd just stick out a bit more among a smaller population.
Second, those numbers are bullshit, Joe. Run Faster has the breakdown of the world population by metatype:
Human: 39% (a given)
Ork: 22% (also the fastest growing)
Elf: 15% (makes sense)
Dwarf: 14% (NOT 1%)
Troll: 5% (STILL NOT 1%)
Other: 5% (Metasapients and shapeshifters, mostly; I think SURGE falls under here, maybe Infected)
I'm not at all down with those numbers, for the record. They go agaisnt everything published previously and the overall universe feel changes *enormously* if you don't have a Human majority. The traditional numbers look more like:
Human - 68%
Elf - 12%
Ork - 16%*
Dwarf - 2%
Troll - 1%
Other - 1%
* Ork population is undercounted due to the large number of SINless that are Ork. (Trolls are similarly undercounted, but not to the same extent.)
This lines up with the world-as-presented much better.
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Positive Quality "The DAN", Requirement Dwarf, Cost 5 Karma. Character is hooked up to The DAN or the Dwarven Assistance Network. At any time the character may ask to substitute The DAN as a connection 3, Loyalty 5 connection for most tests involving contacts. This represents a loose network of Dwarf helping Dwarf. Requests for Forbidden equipment, and Fencing "found" gear are generally not allowed as are other outright illegal requests. The DAN isn't for metahuman trafficking and organ legging, it is typical Dwarf helping other Dwarfs. At chargen no non-Dwarf can take The DAN, but during play if a character does a favor for a member of The DAN then they may add The DAN as a connection 3, Loyalty 1 Contact as per normal contact rules.
... or something like that. Could be set up as a Group Contact or whatever too. I'd love to see a slew of Metahuman specific qualities and contacts sometime.
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So, is Catalyst screwing things up in the big picture some more? Or are you using biased, in-game census numbers?
Here's the official numbers from Seattle in 2070 (this does not include SINless and is of one city; one can imagine various cities have various populations), compared to the 'current' percentage world-wide.
Humans: 66% - 39%
Elves: 13% - 15%
Dwarves: 2% - 14%
Orks: 16% - 22%
Trolls: 2% - 5%
Other: 1% - 5%
Humans take a precipitous dip, but a good fraction of that is because they basically drew off of the human totem pole to get the others to their current level. It also doesn't factor in SINs for the equation.
While I don't think elf populations should be growing, that too could be a part of local versus world-wide.
Dwarfs having such a steep increase in population this edition does seem a little... Off. That said, as one of the main metatypes, I definitely wouldn't have left them at 2%. That's far too low. Perhaps my idea of dwarfs just avoiding Seattle works.
It is explicitly stated that ork populations are booming, with an expected 30% of the world population being ork around 2080. That is an insane increase compared to usual humans, but ork physiology does help that along. Also, less documentation due to less likelihood to have a SIN. Having 5 years to go up 6% could be reasonable. And it still doesn't factor in the bias of in-game polls of the Seattle numbers versus the world-wide population numbers.
Trolls should be somewhat rare, but 1% seems extremely low as well. Given trolls don't fit into cities that well and have the same kinds of issues with SINs as orks do, I'd tend up a little here as well when compared to the Seattle numbers, though not as high as dwarfs.
Others getting such a population increase is extremely off, in my mind. Adding up all of the numbers from the individual metasapients and all, the Other population comes out to an estimated 481,500, with no numbers for SURGE or Pixies given. Rounding it up to 500,000 to fill in the gap would mean they would have to be 500,000 out of 10,000,000 to be 5% of the population (unless the pixie horde is much larger than anticipated, and they're awaiting the chance to strike). We can brush these guys into the cracks as far as I'm concerned.
Were I to assign percentages of my own to the setting (a bit of fluff to go along with the binder full of other house-rules to make the game feasible at any of the tables I play at), I'd change the numbers to this (and I'd definitely vary these from region to region);
Humans- 50%
Orks- 25%
Elves- 10%
Dwarfs- 10%
Trolls- 5%
Others- ~0%
Humans are still the most populous, but if everyone decided to play 'kick the humies,' they'd be about even.
Orks are catching up, given their propensity towards multiple births and multiple children per birth. A relatively short lifespan doesn't reign them in that well.
Elves probably don't reproduce all that fast, but given nobody is dying of old age-related causes any time soon...
Dwarfs should be a bit like elves what with the old age thing.
This puts trolls at a percentage of the population where they can't just be written off.
Others, by the numbers, don't come up to a full percent of the world's population. They shouldn't impact the percentages by hogging the precious numbers.
In places like Japan, spike the human population at the cost of others. Elven nations are dominated by (you guessed it) elves. Amazonia, Angkor Wat and the Yakut would have appreciable numbers of Others. Those metahuman enclaves in the AGS would have skewed numbers as well.
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First, Wyrm is correct. They won't have a larger variation, it'd just stick out a bit more among a smaller population.
Second, those numbers are bullshit, Joe. Run Faster has the breakdown of the world population by metatype:
Human: 39% (a given)
Ork: 22% (also the fastest growing)
Elf: 15% (makes sense)
Dwarf: 14% (NOT 1%)
Troll: 5% (STILL NOT 1%)
Other: 5% (Metasapients and shapeshifters, mostly; I think SURGE falls under here, maybe Infected)
I'm not at all down with those numbers, for the record. They go agaisnt everything published previously and the overall universe feel changes *enormously* if you don't have a Human majority. The traditional numbers look more like:
Human - 68%
Elf - 12%
Ork - 16%*
Dwarf - 2%
Troll - 1%
Other - 1%
* Ork population is undercounted due to the large number of SINless that are Ork. (Trolls are similarly undercounted, but not to the same extent.)
This lines up with the world-as-presented much better.
The 4A CRB has humans at 60% of the world's population in 2072 (page 73), the remainder of meta-humanity comes in at a collective 33% (can't find a reference in the CRB that breaks that down) and the remaining 2% as non-meta-humanity. I'd say the trend it towards humanity becoming a plurality rather than a majority though I would agree that it's unlikely humans would have declined that far, that fast in just the last few years.
IMO it makes a lot more sense to me that after 60+ years that humanity should be reduced being the largest minority or at least close to it by this point.
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Were there additional Waves of Goblinization in between the counts? That could account for some of the large shifts in percentages too. If 10% of the human population were to have Goblinized along the way that would account for the human share dropping some and the other categories increasing some. Obviously not all but certainly a statistically significant amount.
Overall some of the increases can be accounted by an increase in Birth Rates (Orcs) and/or more accurate census numbers for the SINless (Troll/Other). Dwarfs are the largest gain going from 2% to 14%. A staggering 12% of the global population became Dwarfs? 500+ million more Dwarfs in a few years from a population base of 200 Million isn't a population explosion. It's a population Super-Nova.
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Keep in mind, those numbers with 2% Dwarfs are for Seattle only. I personally figure that due to the Night of Rage and the falling out with the Ork Underground, there just aren't that many of them in the city. That would explain why there's such a disconnect between one place and the world.
There haven't been any new waves of UGE, Goblinization or SURGE in the last decade, though the occasional case probably pops its way up; exceptions, not the rule.
Really, I think Other having a solid percentage is an overestimation of their numbers by far, especially given the populations shown as of yet. 4th Anniversary does use these numbers for world-wide as of 2070;
Humans- 60%
Metatypes- 38%
Other- 2%
I guess if Infected fall under Other, the ghoul population might boost them up a bit, but... Still.
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Woof, okay, so, as I said before, all I've played is the cRPGs and did some research on the wiki. Are you guys getting all your information from the tabletop? I'm sort of new to the whole serious Shadowrun community, so I'm unclear.
Other than that I'm loving this discussion.
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Woof, okay, so, as I said before, all I've played is the cRPGs and did some research on the wiki. Are you guys getting all your information from the tabletop? I'm sort of new to the whole serious Shadowrun community, so I'm unclear.
Other than that I'm loving this discussion.
Yep. The tabletop RPG has been around since the late 80's and is in its 5th edition so there is a lot of source material for this kind of stuff. As you can see, however, not all the source material is in perfect agreement. ;)
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Page 73 of the 4th Edition Anniversary Core, Page 45 from Run Faster, the Seattle-specific numbers from wherever they came from... Disparities between the first two are annoying, the Seattle one is understandable.
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Yep. The tabletop RPG has been around since the late 80's and is in its 5th edition so there is a lot of source material for this kind of stuff. As you can see, however, not all the source material is in perfect agreement. ;)
See, I want to get into the tabletop but 1. I live in Idaho, USA 2. Figuring out how to go about the shadowrun tabletop without a guide is like bashing your head into a brick wall and expecting it to fall.
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Ladies, gentlemen, could we please cut back on the personal attacks and fiery language as we talk about the magical pretend fun time gun bunny tea party?
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Yep. The tabletop RPG has been around since the late 80's and is in its 5th edition so there is a lot of source material for this kind of stuff. As you can see, however, not all the source material is in perfect agreement. ;)
See, I want to get into the tabletop but 1. I live in Idaho, USA 2. Figuring out how to go about the shadowrun tabletop without a guide is like bashing your head into a brick wall and expecting it to fall.
If there is a local game shop in your area that has a demo agent operating out of it you may be able to get in on a Missions game. Missions are a series of basic adventures that are similar to but completely unlike D&D Encounters(assuming you know what those are.) They even have pre-generated characters IIRC you can use if you don't want to try making your own character (initially.)
The older editions did a pretty good job of summarizing the whole origins of Shadowrun thing but the more recent editions, not so much.
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Run Faster upped the proportions. I'll admit that 1% was low, but it wasn't 14%. Yea, Seattle is at 2% for each of dwarf and troll.
My point is that their numbers put them as the statistical outliers. Their primary feature is that they are either short or tall. That means that anyone in the other metatype that is either a little too short or a little too tall gets lumped into the dwarf /troll metatypes. So they have all the variations of their own metatype plus all the variations of the other metatypes. But how does the world see them? Just a dwarf of just a troll.
IIRC, The difference is between 3050 Seattle v/s 3075 World Wide.
Seattle happens to have a lower figure.
Also, in 25 years the faster breeding & population growth since 2011+ the Meta #s will keep getting bigger
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Their primary feature is that they are either short or tall. That means that anyone in the other metatype that is either a little too short or a little too tall gets lumped into the dwarf /troll metatypes. So they have all the variations of their own metatype plus all the variations of the other metatypes. But how does the world see them? Just a dwarf of just a troll.
None of this part is right.
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The older editions did a pretty good job of summarizing the whole origins of Shadowrun thing but the more recent editions, not so much.
The early episodes of the Neo-Anarchist Podcast do a fantastic job summing a lot of that up.
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What are the phenotypic characteristics of a dwarf?
What are the phenotypic characteristics of an elf?
Can you make a human character that is mechanically equivalent to an elf or a dwarf... note that you can use "human looking" quality.
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Mechanically equivalent? Sure. Get your eyes swapped out, get some combination of Exceptional Attribute and Genetic Optimization, get metatype reassignment via biosculpting, sure. It makes you very dwarf-like/elf-like, but it doesn't make you a dwarf/elf. It makes you a poser.
When Michael Jackson was arrested, the cops listed him as 'white,' because for the purposes of what they needed to write that down for, his appearance was what mattered, but on a census, he was still counted as African American.
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I see you caught it first try. The distinguishing feature of dwarves is natural Thermographic vision... shared by Trolls. The rest can be done by attribute allocation and the resistance to pathogens quality.
So, from the outside, how do you know a dwarf is a dwarf?
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You don't. But odds are very good they do. And the number of people who are going to lie about their ethnicity/metatype on a census is not that big. If you have a SIN, you have gone to a doctor before, who has taken a blood test, that has verified that you are either a human or a dwarf.
Also, even on top of those basic mechanical things, dwarves do have different biochemistry. There are a few toxins floating around out there that dwarves are just immune to. All those modifications would still just be an approximation of dwarvenness.
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Uh ... no. It can't. You can't have it all ways, CJ. You're trying to say that 'the rules are the only thing that matter' when it comes to 'making a dwarf', and yet that you have to be able to see external characteristics, and yet you won't say what defines a dwarf from a human with growth hormone deficiency or a number of the other causes of RL 'dwarfism'.
You're trying to say that a shaggy dog is a wolf, when it just ain't so. They can interbreed, sure, but there are genetic differences, behavioral differences, visual differences (especially depending on breed), and all the rest. By using 'can you make' you're stretching a couple of miles to reach the far, far end of the bell curve - that one human in ten million that has a slight mutation to allow him to see further into the red end of the spectrum, and/or who has a bit more robust resistance to diseases and toxins. So what, that Michael Jackson got arrested and was categorized as 'white'; his genetic markers all said 'black', and in Shadowrun, that's what defines your metaracial profile.
Stop trying to shove your crackpot philosophies into other people's questions about canon and pretend that your theories are canonical. They aren't. If you want to bring the topic of discussion up, do it in your own thread.
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Which is odd given that, reach disadvantage aside, they have good combat stats.
Eh, I disagree. They're expensive for what you get, and paying a little more gets you a lot more. Going from WIL 5 to 6 isn't really worth it (and it's of relatively low value to hard cap WIL at 7 versus hard-capping, like, INT or LOG or AGI).
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Except for trolls, all the metatypes can take the quality "human looking". That means that metatypes aren't discrete, there is a spectrum of phenotype expression from iconic human (whatever that means) to iconic dwarf (whatever that means). When you exhibit enough traits of a dwarf, based on some arbitrary standard, you get labeled a dwarf.
My assertion is that the primary trait is being short.
By comparison, being an elf means being tallish, skinny, with pointy ears and almond shaped eyes.
Since dwarves need one trait, and elves need half a dozen, elves will have to be much more uniform to qualify while dwarves just need to be short.
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Joe... just stop. Really. You make Plan 9 look sane. And that's POST-CFD!
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Here's the official numbers from Seattle in 2070 (this does not include SINless and is of one city; one can imagine various cities have various populations), compared to the 'current' percentage world-wide.
Humans: 66% - 39%
Elves: 13% - 15%
Dwarves: 2% - 14%
Orks: 16% - 22%
Trolls: 2% - 5%
Other: 1% - 5%
Humans take a precipitous dip, but a good fraction of that is because they basically drew off of the human totem pole to get the others to their current level. It also doesn't factor in SINs for the equation.
While I don't think elf populations should be growing, that too could be a part of local versus world-wide.
Dwarfs having such a steep increase in population this edition does seem a little... Off. That said, as one of the main metatypes, I definitely wouldn't have left them at 2%. That's far too low. Perhaps my idea of dwarfs just avoiding Seattle works.
It is explicitly stated that ork populations are booming, with an expected 30% of the world population being ork around 2080. That is an insane increase compared to usual humans, but ork physiology does help that along. Also, less documentation due to less likelihood to have a SIN. Having 5 years to go up 6% could be reasonable. And it still doesn't factor in the bias of in-game polls of the Seattle numbers versus the world-wide population numbers.
Trolls should be somewhat rare, but 1% seems extremely low as well. Given trolls don't fit into cities that well and have the same kinds of issues with SINs as orks do, I'd tend up a little here as well when compared to the Seattle numbers, though not as high as dwarfs.
Others getting such a population increase is extremely off, in my mind. Adding up all of the numbers from the individual metasapients and all, the Other population comes out to an estimated 481,500, with no numbers for SURGE or Pixies given. Rounding it up to 500,000 to fill in the gap would mean they would have to be 500,000 out of 10,000,000 to be 5% of the population (unless the pixie horde is much larger than anticipated, and they're awaiting the chance to strike). We can brush these guys into the cracks as far as I'm concerned.
Someone mentioned the night of rage already which probably thinned out quite a bit of the Meta population.
But I'll add that Seattle's location next to 2 big Meta areas (Tir & Crow) would likely leave it lower over all as well since many of the Meta's moved to those other areas. I mean why stay permanently in Seattle when you have people next door that don't hate you for your looks, size, etc, etc.
Also the Barrens don't count everyone & that is where a Lot of the Meta's moved to as well.
Finally, IIRC VITAS killed off 25% + 10% or something like that, of the worlds Human Population, then 10% of the Humans Goblinized over night.
So really, having humans down to 39% of the Population doesn't seem like THAT big of a stretch.
WIth Elves & Dwarves having 60 years+ & the Orks Trolls at 40+, that is 3 Generations now & Humans still giving birth to Metas.
Yeah, I could see it.
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As to the specific case of deckers? Personal experience means nothing, but I've only seen folks play dwarves in technical roles. Ever. Riggers, combat medics, and deckers. That's it. In the rare instance I see people bother with dwarves, that is.
Which is odd given that, reach disadvantage aside, they have good combat stats.
Eh, I disagree. They're expensive for what you get, and paying a little more gets you a lot more. Going from WIL 5 to 6 isn't really worth it (and it's of relatively low value to hard cap WIL at 7 versus hard-capping, like, INT or LOG or AGI).
I don't know. I find Dwarf Casters to be particularly good.
They beef up the physical stats that usually get dumped & 7 Will is nice for Drain of all kinds as well as Stun Boxes.
Thermo & Resists just add to a Caster since things like Cyber to get similar boosts doesn't work well for them.
Really the only downside that they have, IMHO, is the Lifestyle issue. They wear the same shirts & are not any shorter than a lot of the short people I know & they don't have to scale everything for them. So to me the cost of tailoring your pants shouldn't be 20% of everything you do.
If anything they use less fabric in those pants so its a net wash. I'd put them at 0%.
(For that matter I think Trolls should be down around 50% instead of 100%, but I digress)
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Yeah, no. Your assertion is invalid.
First off, there is no arbitrary standard of 'if you look like this, you're a Dwarf.' The traits of a Dwarf include eyes with thermographic vision, pointed ears, denser than average mass due to denser muscles and bones, a naturally more resilient immune system, a naturally stronger will and a below average height. Being short is only the most easily noticeable trait of being a Dwarf (which is different from suffering from dwarfism). If you do not have those (or the equivalents for the metavariants), you are not a Dwarf. You were not born with whatever gave them their Dwarfiness. Someone might mistake you for one, maybe. Just because someone is short, has red hair and wears green in Tir Na nOg doesn't mean they're a leprechaun, even if they look like one.
Being a Dwarf, being short and suffering from dwarfism are three very different things. One is a genetic divergence from the human genome, one is just not being as tall as the average member of your race and one is a lack of growth/development due to some form of medical condition.
There is no 'qualifying' for being a race. You either are one, or you aren't. You might not look exactly like one (Human-Looking does exist), but beneath that all, your genes say 'Elf, Ork or Dwarf.' End of story.
Keep in mind Tarislar, the increase to Lifestyle accounts for all of the things those metatypes need. For Dwarfs, it's getting furniture sized for them, doorknobs put at the right height, adjusting the grips of their weapons and equipment, etc. And do you honestly run around with a bunch of 4 foot tall people? Your 'average' dwarf is only 1.2 meters tall, which is below 4 feet. They do need to get everything tailored or purchased specifically for them, as children's clothes aren't proportioned right for them. And given the numbers of dwarfs in the world, it isn't going to be the same price as everything else. Trolls have to get everything increased by a lot, made more durable due to their horns and dermal deposits (how do trolls even put on t-shirts? I assume they mostly wear button-ups), resized so their giant fingers can manipulate it, etc. Lifestyle also covers the increase in food needed to keep a 9 foot tall person active and healthy. And again, this is for 1-5 percent of the population, a small group who are discriminated against regularly and don't generally earn as much money as others. Lifestyle costs are just about perfect for trolls and dwarfs,
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7 WIL is just not as generally applicable as, say, 8 CHA (elves) or 6 INT/LOG. By which I mean, 8 CHA is a very solid basis to also do face stuff. 6 INT makes you better at going fast, doing, perceiving, assensing, or good at certain knowledge skills. 6 LOG (and I consider LOG to be the weakest of the drain stats honestly) lets you do some off-decking (if you're insane haha) do rigger stuff better, or just be really knowledgeable. WIL is a very passive stat - which isn't inherently a bad thing - it just makes you question whether maxing it for one more stun box is as valuable as improving dice pools that would be rolled with some frequency
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7 WIL is just not as generally applicable as, say, 8 CHA (elves) or 6 INT/LOG. By which I mean, 8 CHA is a very solid basis to also do face stuff. 6 INT makes you better at going fast, doing, perceiving, assensing, or good at certain knowledge skills. 6 LOG (and I consider LOG to be the weakest of the drain stats honestly) lets you do some off-decking (if you're insane haha) do rigger stuff better, or just be really knowledgeable. WIL is a very passive stat - which isn't inherently a bad thing - it just makes you question whether maxing it for one more stun box is as valuable as improving dice pools that would be rolled with some frequency
You say that, but any time you're resisting anything that isn't a bullet, you're probably rolling X+WIL. It's just so applicable to so many things, even if it does tend to be passive.
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Dwarves and orks both have good stat bonuses (note that dwarves get a bit of extra love in SR5, getting +2 rather than the +1 Body they got in SR4), but you need Priority: C or better to play one, and both have disadvantages. Orks have slightly lower maximums for some mental attributes that will likely never be a real factor for most builds. Dwarves, on the other hand, take a hit to their Reaction maximum, have a lower running speed, pay extra for lifestyle, and require specially made gear. So really, it isn't surprising if they are not as popular of a choice.
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7 WIL is just not as generally applicable as, say, 8 CHA (elves) or 6 INT/LOG. By which I mean, 8 CHA is a very solid basis to also do face stuff. 6 INT makes you better at going fast, doing, perceiving, assensing, or good at certain knowledge skills. 6 LOG (and I consider LOG to be the weakest of the drain stats honestly) lets you do some off-decking (if you're insane haha) do rigger stuff better, or just be really knowledgeable. WIL is a very passive stat - which isn't inherently a bad thing - it just makes you question whether maxing it for one more stun box is as valuable as improving dice pools that would be rolled with some frequency
You say that, but any time you're resisting anything that isn't a bullet, you're probably rolling X+WIL. It's just so applicable to so many things, even if it does tend to be passive.
Yes, I do say that, and am comfortable saying it.
What are you thinking of for X + WIL, incidentally, besides resisting some spells and powers? 2 dice isn't going to help much against a well-equipped spell caster, unless you have your own guy counter spelling.
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Yes, I do say that, and am comfortable saying it.
What are you thinking of for X + WIL, incidentally, besides resisting some spells and powers? 2 dice isn't going to help much against a well-equipped spell caster, unless you have your own guy counter spelling.
Spells, lots of drugs and poisons, composure, drain/fade, mental/social limits, many (perhaps even most) critter powers, matrix defenses, full defense...
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Yeah I'm still comfortable with my assessment.
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*Shrug.*
It just seems like most of the times I hear, "Please, dear God, don't let me fail this roll..." willpower is involved. And usually spirits or paracritters.
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What are you thinking of for X + WIL, incidentally, besides resisting some spells and powers? 2 dice isn't going to help much against a well-equipped spell caster, unless you have your own guy counter spelling.
By that same rational, 1 extra die for my Log/Cha tests isn't that much help either.
But the Extra Stun Box might be a huge help if its the one that keeps you awake. ;)
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Which is odd given that, reach disadvantage aside, they have good combat stats.
Eh, I disagree. They're expensive for what you get, and paying a little more gets you a lot more. Going from WIL 5 to 6 isn't really worth it (and it's of relatively low value to hard cap WIL at 7 versus hard-capping, like, INT or LOG or AGI).
True.
But WIL 7 INT 5 Dwarf Mage is in my mind's eye a pretty solid choice.
With Attributes B you can soft cap BOD and INT; Hard Cap WIL. Leaves 7 points for the other 5 stats but you really don't need any more STR since it starts at 3.
Granted the character effectively only has 26 or 30 Skill points depending whether you go E or D on Skills.
and of course, who wouldn't want to play a throwing syringe adept dwarf that splits the damage and uses narcojet to knock out his victims... couldn't help myself. Someone needs to start medicating me :)
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Versus Orks Dwarfs actually have an additional Special Attribute :/ I'm still angry about that one.
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Luxembourg. Sort of.
Heh, Dwarves of Luxembourg.
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Versus Orks Dwarfs actually have an additional Special Attribute :/ I'm still angry about that one.
Just another example of Ork-on-Dwarf hate.
Tsk.
There oughta be a law.
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Which is odd given that, reach disadvantage aside, they have good combat stats.
Eh, I disagree. They're expensive for what you get, and paying a little more gets you a lot more. Going from WIL 5 to 6 isn't really worth it (and it's of relatively low value to hard cap WIL at 7 versus hard-capping, like, INT or LOG or AGI).
I do not know. A dwarf would make a nasty mage or technomancer. Especially if his will was pumped up to max. You could cast or use resonance all day long without having to worry so much about the nasty side effects.
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Which is odd given that, reach disadvantage aside, they have good combat stats.
Eh, I disagree. They're expensive for what you get, and paying a little more gets you a lot more. Going from WIL 5 to 6 isn't really worth it (and it's of relatively low value to hard cap WIL at 7 versus hard-capping, like, INT or LOG or AGI).
I do not know. A dwarf would make a nasty mage or technomancer. Especially if his will was pumped up to max. You could cast or use resonance all day long without having to worry so much about the nasty side effects.
Sorry did not see that this has been hashed out to the nth degree.
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Versus Orks Dwarfs actually have an additional Special Attribute :/ I'm still angry about that one.
Just another example of Ork-on-Dwarf hate.
Tsk.
There oughta be a law.
There isn't, but I do know of an underground trid site where you can watch Orks and Dwarves 'resolve' that hate. You should have seen the last episode! That ork did things I never would have thought of. Who knew a chainsaw could fit there?
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Versus Orks Dwarfs actually have an additional Special Attribute :/ I'm still angry about that one.
Just another example of Ork-on-Dwarf hate.
Tsk.
There oughta be a law.
There isn't, but I do know of an underground trid site where you can watch Orks and Dwarves 'resolve' that hate. You should have seen the last episode! That ork did things I never would have thought of. Who knew a chainsaw could fit there?
I do not know I liked the episode that proves the old adage "Never argue with anyone that punches at groin height!"
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Versus Orks Dwarfs actually have an additional Special Attribute :/ I'm still angry about that one.
Just another example of Ork-on-Dwarf hate.
Tsk.
There oughta be a law.
There isn't, but I do know of an underground trid site where you can watch Orks and Dwarves 'resolve' that hate. You should have seen the last episode! That ork did things I never would have thought of. Who knew a chainsaw could fit there?
Dwarves don't need no pansy chainsaws. All they needs is an axe to make sure that Ork will be need a new Johnson. 8)
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Yeah, no. Your assertion is invalid.
First off, there is no arbitrary standard of 'if you look like this, you're a Dwarf.' The traits of a Dwarf include eyes with thermographic vision, pointed ears, denser than average mass due to denser muscles and bones, a naturally more resilient immune system, a naturally stronger will and a below average height. Being short is only the most easily noticeable trait of being a Dwarf (which is different from suffering from dwarfism). If you do not have those (or the equivalents for the metavariants), you are not a Dwarf. You were not born with whatever gave them their Dwarfiness. Someone might mistake you for one, maybe. Just because someone is short, has red hair and wears green in Tir Na nOg doesn't mean they're a leprechaun, even if they look like one.
Being a Dwarf, being short and suffering from dwarfism are three very different things. One is a genetic divergence from the human genome, one is just not being as tall as the average member of your race and one is a lack of growth/development due to some form of medical condition.
There is no 'qualifying' for being a race. You either are one, or you aren't. You might not look exactly like one (Human-Looking does exist), but beneath that all, your genes say 'Elf, Ork or Dwarf.' End of story.
Don't forget, white vs black isn't really a race when you get into the genetics of it. There are different races of primates, including human irl, but white/black/asian/etc. is just a phenotype. Meanwhile, in shadowrun, magic has actually changed both the DNA of and retroactively changed the phenotype of human in to elves, orcs, trolls, and even dwarves. The difference between human and dward is pronounced enough in the average member of the genepool to actually call them a different species and ergo race. However, assuming (because I'm not 100% sure if it's canon or how it works) dwarves and other metahumans are capable of cross breading, it doesn't even brake what we understand of specie; we now know that Homo Neanderthal and Sapiens (fyi, that genus then species) interbred which would mean dwarves and human can be fully separate races and still make a viable hybrid.
Does this mean someone can't make himself look dwarven and be a true human; no, and I don't doubt that they could do it to an extent that would even fool doctors and medical equipment into be able to issue a human a dwarven SIN or vice versa. While it is in the realm of possibility, these modifications cost you essence which means that, while you are becoming more of a poser, you are only becoming less human in the process. As much as your try to twist it, lore and mechanics both say that unless you were born something, you can only be superficially something else.
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The way metatypes work in Shadowrun is that if you have mixed parentage, you end up as one of your parents or as one of the other options; no hybrids. Orks and trolls have been known to have fully Human kids (and some Goblinize later in life, but that's a different tale).
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You know, outside of that one archetype in the SR1 Street Samurai Catalouge, I can't say that I have ever heard of a Dwarf Street Sam. Is this a thing that people actually play and am I just blind?
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I've never seen one played, ever.
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Haven't seen one. I think my current game is the first one ever with a PC dwarf, to boot, and he's a rigger.
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Listening to the hidden grid actual play. There's on one their team a few runs in. First I've seen.
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You know, outside of that one archetype in the SR1 Street Samurai Catalouge, I can't say that I have ever heard of a Dwarf Street Sam. Is this a thing that people actually play and am I just blind?
We got a first time player whos playing a street sam in my group so yeah people do play them.
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It's rare. My last group had a Dwarven Mercenary (aka, "The trunk Dwarf", so named due to his habit of hiding in the rigger's car's trunk, then stepping out only long enough to crack heads, then go back into the trunk) ... but I've never had a Dwarven samurai.
Indeed, outside of a single Elf, every Sammy I've ever had in a game was human.
You'd think more Orks would have signed up, but, never in my home games.
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The best part of being a dwarf is other dwarfs. "Fist-bump, bring it in."
And then there's this. Dwarves network with other Dwarves, and there's a silent brotherhood that you know you can count on. Bar brawl breaks out? You know that no Dwarf is gonna clonk you if you're also a Dwarf, and there's a dang good chance that you'll just have somebody take yoru back and you'll flow right into protecting one another. Dwarf goes in for a bank loan and gets a Dwarf loan officer. There'll be some talking for the cameras, they both know it's getting approved and at generous rates. Dwarf outside the store hungry? Dwar owner quietly has their kid run out there with a meal... he knows the guy'll be good for it down the road.
You just don't get a lot of teh infighting that the others do. (In general. There are, of course, exceptions, because in Shadowrun, there's always room for jerks.)
Run Faster describes dwarves (sub-)culture like this.
Positive Quality "The DAN", Requirement Dwarf, Cost 5 Karma. Character is hooked up to The DAN or the Dwarven Assistance Network. At any time the character may ask to substitute The DAN as a connection 3, Loyalty 5 connection for most tests involving contacts. This represents a loose network of Dwarf helping Dwarf. Requests for Forbidden equipment, and Fencing "found" gear are generally not allowed as are other outright illegal requests. The DAN isn't for metahuman trafficking and organ legging, it is typical Dwarf helping other Dwarfs. At chargen no non-Dwarf can take The DAN, but during play if a character does a favor for a member of The DAN then they may add The DAN as a connection 3, Loyalty 1 Contact as per normal contact rules.
... or something like that. Could be set up as a Group Contact or whatever too. I'd love to see a slew of Metahuman specific qualities and contacts sometime.
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Run Faster has something like this. Dwarves are the one race that get an actual gameplay benefit from the meta type-culture chapters. when living in mainstream dwarves culture they get +2 social limit with dwarven connections (also for availability) but only for legal stuff, as pariahs/outsiders they get -1 or +3 with other outsiders.
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Not that I can add much to the discussion at this point, but I'll chuck in my 2¥ worth. First off, I'm a bit of a Dwarf enthusiast in games. They're actually my favourite fantasy race, to the point that my fiance Is convinced I'm part of the species(I'm a hairy Canuck, so possible). So if anything in here is slightly inaccurate, it's because I'm a bit biased by own admittance.
Looking at the stats in Shadowrun, dwarves are short, but bulky. I've always pictured them as being proportionally wider and much more dense than humans, and their higher min/max in strength and body support this. So while they're not automatically looking like weightlifters, I figure on average dwarf men and women do look a bit more muscular/thick/rugged. Think short hairy rugby players.
As for dwarf personality and society, Shadowrun is different than most fantasy/sci-fi ganes, but it is still a world where stereotypes exist. Not all movers of a metaspecies are part of said stereotype, but they are aware of them. So while many dwarves aren't all brusk, reserved, mechanical tinkerers, I'm sure more than a few don't mind going along with the public perception that they are.
Also, I'm currently playing a Dwarf melee tank adept in a 5E game, and I've got to say, they make damn survivable little balls of death. And the hacker player in my 4E game is a dwarf, so they do get played. :)
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Indeed, outside of a single Elf, every Sammy I've ever had in a game was human.
You'd think more Orks would have signed up, but, never in my home games.
Weird. In my games, the guns/melee weapons combat folk get a relatively equal split between humans, elves, and orks; having that boost to the very-vital Agility tends to make for good killer elves, and the old 'if there is no reason why the character should definitely not be an ork, they should be an ork' still kind of applies. If the question is pure unarmed, of course, the trolls get brought out ...
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The way metatypes work in Shadowrun is that if you have mixed parentage, you end up as one of your parents or as one of the other options; no hybrids. Orks and trolls have been known to have fully Human kids (and some Goblinize later in life, but that's a different tale).
I think that is close but not quite right.
Pretty sure a meta can have offspring of your race or base human. While humans can breed Human & any other single type.
But what you can't do for instance is have 2 different Meta's mate & have a 3rd Meta.
So a Troll + Ork parents can breed Troll, Ork, or Human, or Human that later Goblinizes. BUT, They can't make a Dwarf or Elf, Ever.
Essentially you can't have multiple dormant metatype genes.
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You know, outside of that one archetype in the SR1 Street Samurai Catalouge, I can't say that I have ever heard of a Dwarf Street Sam. Is this a thing that people actually play and am I just blind?
I think Jim has posted that his 1st Character was a 2E Dwarf Sam that had Twin-Spurs & said "Bubb" a lot.
The only Dwarf in my 1st Group was a Rigger, technically, but the twin SMGs & Spur he carried made him quite capable outside of his ride.
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You know, outside of that one archetype in the SR1 Street Samurai Catalouge, I can't say that I have ever heard of a Dwarf Street Sam. Is this a thing that people actually play and am I just blind?
I think Jim has posted that his 1st Character was a 2E Dwarf Sam that had Twin-Spurs & said "Bubb" a lot.
Ayep. Don't forget the Panther Cannon ;D
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The way metatypes work in Shadowrun is that if you have mixed parentage, you end up as one of your parents or as one of the other options; no hybrids. Orks and trolls have been known to have fully Human kids (and some Goblinize later in life, but that's a different tale).
I think that is close but not quite right.
Pretty sure a meta can have offspring of your race or base human. While humans can breed Human & any other single type.
But what you can't do for instance is have 2 different Meta's mate & have a 3rd Meta.
So a Troll + Ork parents can breed Troll, Ork, or Human, or Human that later Goblinizes. BUT, They can't make a Dwarf or Elf, Ever.
Essentially you can't have multiple dormant metatype genes.
Actually, any can breed with any and have any.
Two orcs can have a bouncing baby elf. It's just very rare.
Two orcs will probably have an orc. An orc and an elf will probably have an orc or elf. Just like two white parents can have a black baby, due to expression of recessive genetic traits in both parents. It's just rare.
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As Rose said.
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Well, as Rose and MijRai both said. MijRai gave the canonical baseline probabilities quite cleanly.
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In Earthdawn, the Orks, Trolls, Dwarfs, Elves and Humans are no longer able to interbreed and produce offspring eventhough they have stories that states, that all 5 races share a common ancestry, so it is theorized that the rising mana levels increases the differences between the races.
Well from Shadowrun we know that the common genetic source is the baseline Homo Sapiens, so it will be interesting to see if this is something that we will see the beginning of at some point, unless we already have. I seem to recall having read somewhere that it is becomming rarer and rarer for metahumans to give birth to human children, though i don't recall where i read it though.
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The way metatypes work in Shadowrun is that if you have mixed parentage, you end up as one of your parents or as one of the other options; no hybrids. Orks and trolls have been known to have fully Human kids (and some Goblinize later in life, but that's a different tale).
I think that is close but not quite right.
Pretty sure a meta can have offspring of your race or base human. While humans can breed Human & any other single type.
But what you can't do for instance is have 2 different Meta's mate & have a 3rd Meta.
So a Troll + Ork parents can breed Troll, Ork, or Human, or Human that later Goblinizes. BUT, They can't make a Dwarf or Elf, Ever.
Essentially you can't have multiple dormant metatype genes.
Actually, any can breed with any and have any.
Two orcs can have a bouncing baby elf. It's just very rare.
Two orcs will probably have an orc. An orc and an elf will probably have an orc or elf. Just like two white parents can have a black baby, due to expression of recessive genetic traits in both parents. It's just rare.
Well, technically it would be like two black parents having a non-albino white baby: "White" is recessive while the three different darker skin pigmentation genes are all dominant.
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Well, as Rose and MijRai both said. MijRai gave the canonical baseline probabilities quite cleanly.
Anyone got an Example of it happening?
I thought it was similar to how Rosa mentioned & they could breed through the Human "part" of them but you couldn't have 2 meta's give birth to a 3rd meta.
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Well, as Rose and MijRai both said. MijRai gave the canonical baseline probabilities quite cleanly.
Anyone got an Example of it happening?
I thought it was similar to how Rosa mentioned & they could breed through the Human "part" of them but you couldn't have 2 meta's give birth to a 3rd meta.
There is a good example in Street Legends: Home Edition of 3 brothers of 3 different metatypes. I recall a dwarf, a human, and an ork. That's probably the most blatantly obvious example in canon.
And anyone that tells me that's not canon is a blatant liar!
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Well, as Rose and MijRai both said. MijRai gave the canonical baseline probabilities quite cleanly.
Anyone got an Example of it happening?
I thought it was similar to how Rosa mentioned & they could breed through the Human "part" of them but you couldn't have 2 meta's give birth to a 3rd meta.
There is a good example in Street Legends: Home Edition of 3 brothers of 3 different metatypes. I recall a dwarf, a human, and an ork. That's probably the most blatantly obvious example in canon.
And anyone that tells me that's not canon is a blatant liar!
You forget that the mailman is always a factor.
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It's a possibility, but just because it can happen, doesn't mean it did.
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Well, as Rose and MijRai both said. MijRai gave the canonical baseline probabilities quite cleanly.
Anyone got an Example of it happening?
I thought it was similar to how Rosa mentioned & they could breed through the Human "part" of them but you couldn't have 2 meta's give birth to a 3rd meta.
There is a good example in Street Legends: Home Edition of 3 brothers of 3 different metatypes. I recall a dwarf, a human, and an ork. That's probably the most blatantly obvious example in canon.
And anyone that tells me that's not canon is a blatant liar!
It is hard to convey tone in writing, so I am responding to this under the assumption you are being completely serious. If you were joking, then you can pretty much ignore this...
Street Legends: Home Edition was an April Fools product. As is often the case with Catalyst's April Fools day Shadowrun products, I would say they are probably Half and Half realistic. Usually the general premise is "joke" and the fleshed out rules are the "but what if they really did that." It falls in the same vein as Rigger 4 (with the prominent Amish War Buggy, and Battletech-style mechs), Friendship is Tragic (the adventure where the runner team is hired to fend off said Amish from killer Centaurs to the them of My Little Pony), and this years UnCONventional Warfare (which takes place at a gaming convention).
So if none of that seems at all odd to you, then yes, the three brothers of different metatypes is completely canon to the setting no "joke" implied...
In all seriousness, though, I have a question that might clarify that particular part of the discussion regarding metahuman genetics. I can't seem to find my file for Street Legends: Home Edition, and I don't quite feel like downloading it again right this minute. Are those three brothers explicitly written as being born from the same parents? I could easily see them all being half-brothers and that wouldn't break any genetic "rules."
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Well, as Rose and MijRai both said. MijRai gave the canonical baseline probabilities quite cleanly.
Anyone got an Example of it happening?
I thought it was similar to how Rosa mentioned & they could breed through the Human "part" of them but you couldn't have 2 meta's give birth to a 3rd meta.
There is a good example in Street Legends: Home Edition of 3 brothers of 3 different metatypes. I recall a dwarf, a human, and an ork. That's probably the most blatantly obvious example in canon.
And anyone that tells me that's not canon is a blatant liar!
It is hard to convey tone in writing, so I am responding to this under the assumption you are being completely serious. If you were joking, then you can pretty much ignore this...
Street Legends: Home Edition was an April Fools product. As is often the case with Catalyst's April Fools day Shadowrun products, I would say they are probably Half and Half realistic. Usually the general premise is "joke" and the fleshed out rules are the "but what if they really did that." It falls in the same vein as Rigger 4 (with the prominent Amish War Buggy, and Battletech-style mechs), Friendship is Tragic (the adventure where the runner team is hired to fend off said Amish from killer Centaurs to the them of My Little Pony), and this years UnCONventional Warfare (which takes place at a gaming convention).
So if none of that seems at all odd to you, then yes, the three brothers of different metatypes is completely canon to the setting no "joke" implied...
In all seriousness, though, I have a question that might clarify that particular part of the discussion regarding metahuman genetics. I can't seem to find my file for Street Legends: Home Edition, and I don't quite feel like downloading it again right this minute. Are those three brothers explicitly written as being born from the same parents? I could easily see them all being half-brothers and that wouldn't break any genetic "rules."
I actually just reread it, it's an elf, a dwarf, and a troll. All coming from the same infertile mother (metatype unidentified) but went to a fertility clinic owned by Dunkelzahn to make the perfect Shadowrunning team. And they are infact triplets. And once you get dragons involved anything can be done.
Anyway, I consider all the April Fool's products canon because they don't contradict the lore and enrich the setting, even if a bit silly.
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Right, the April Fools products are canon the same way Deadpool and all of his shenanigans is canon for Marvel.
If you want a serious game, don't include them, but they don't technically break anything.
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Right, the April Fools products are canon the same way Deadpool and all of his shenanigans is canon for Marvel.
If you want a serious game, don't include them, but they don't technically break anything.
Amish War wagon FTW! ;D
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Hey, the Nadeshiko drone and the hoverboards from the Rigger 4 supplement were awesome!
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Nadeshiko is, more or less, in Rigger 5.
I haven't gotten the hoverboard in yet, but, eventually!
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You mean the iDoll? Wasn't aware that was a gag drone originally. I actually really like it as part of the setting.
I have a troll face rigger concept in the wings who doesn't want to be a big scary monster, so she uses a class 4 iDoll as her "body."
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Not a gag, but it was a decent place to get some stuff in at the time. Some of the more giggle-inducing stuff I backed away from. The best one, by far, was "Truckzilla", a giant car-eatting transforming truck that rolled around assorted demolition derby/tracor pulls and ate cars after breathing fire on them. Once i found out that we were getting an actual *battlemech*, I figure dthat space was well-occupied, so did some different stuff.
Still might make Truckzilla at some stage. :)
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Ok, this topic has officially derailed, crashed through a wall, run over a little old lady and sank into the river. ???
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Ok, this topic has officially derailed, crashed through a wall, run over a little old lady and sank into the river. ???
And you find this surprising? ???
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Ok, this topic has officially derailed, crashed through a wall, run over a little old lady and sank into the river. ???
Well, if you want to pull out one of the original flamewars, you could ask if Dwarven ladies have beards. (Or how to prnounce Drow). That's like setting the river the little old lady ran into on fire. :)
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Ok, this topic has officially derailed, crashed through a wall, run over a little old lady and sank into the river. ???
Well, if you want to pull out one of the original flamewars, you could ask if Dwarven ladies have beards. (Or how to prnounce Drow). That's like setting the river the little old lady ran into on fire. :)
Well, usually after menopause they do. Most of them just pop into a clinic though and have it zapped. But I would imagine you could find some if you looked long enough.
: )
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Indeed, outside of a single Elf, every Sammy I've ever had in a game was human.
You'd think more Orks would have signed up, but, never in my home games.
Weird. In my games, the guns/melee weapons combat folk get a relatively equal split between humans, elves, and orks; having that boost to the very-vital Agility tends to make for good killer elves, and the old 'if there is no reason why the character should definitely not be an ork, they should be an ork' still kind of applies. If the question is pure unarmed, of course, the trolls get brought out ...
Kinda my experience as well. Due to either high edge, str, or agility and what priorities the player wants.
Dwarfs are not bad, just not as common in some peoples games.