Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Senko on <03-29-16/0540:57>
-
First off please no obvious answer of "As plot requires" this isn't intended for specific NPC's who are made to suit the game I'm more looking at a worldbuilding aspect of generic person working a day to day lifestyle. In the past I've used karma as a general guildeline of person X has this much karma and this kind of skillset. However I was thinking recently life modules could work well as a general guideline for a quick generic (not plot related) NPC creation tool tossing out the karma limits and just purchasing modules based on suggested age. For example a general manager of a stuffer shack (29 years old) would be able to purchase nationality, childhood, teen years and then additional modules to bring them up to their age limit i.e.
UCAS: Seattle
Corp Drone
High School
Community College - Business
Regular Job
Corporate wage slave
27/29 no more modules can be taken. End result a 29 year old manager with a good etiquette (7), negotiation (5), leadership (4) and perception (5 to spot problems in the store they manage, could also split with artisan for some basic life skills e.g. cooking), a solid understanding of economic theory, business management, conflict resolution and other skills. It may be necessary to remove a few things e.g. limited corporate SIN but it does seem to work.
Only problem is that very old people can purchase a ridculous number of modules so I may need to cap it at 30/40 maybe. Anyway what do people think for a quick generic citizen generation method can life modules work like this?
-
I could see it working to create a baseline for attributes and skills.
Would advise adding another module or 2 for important NPCs to mark them as better than John Q. Public.
-
Could work of course most important NPC's would be ones you'd stat specifically for storyline purposes, still maybe for the ones who aren't instead of extra modules give them a flat 100-200 karma to spend in order to specifically adjust a desired value?
-
Life modules tend to result in skills that are too high (because it is made for creating shadowrunners) and attributes that are too low - at least the non-core ones (because it assumes attributes will be bought up with remaining Karma). It is good if you are making corporate types who are better than your average wage slave, but doesn't make a typical wage slave very well.
-
Hmmm I may have gotten a skewed perspective of what's an appropriate skill value given the dice pools this forum seems to feel are "appropriate". I know I always seem to have too small a dice pool in the 10-14 range for new characters.
-
12-14 may not be the very best dice pool you can get, but it is a good, respectable dice pool for a shadowrunner. But for your average wage slave, I would consider such a dice pool far too high.
-
First off please no obvious answer of "As plot requires" this isn't intended for specific NPC's who are made to suit the game I'm more looking at a worldbuilding aspect of generic person working a day to day lifestyle. In the past I've used karma as a general guildeline of person X has this much karma and this kind of skillset. However I was thinking recently life modules could work well as a general guideline for a quick generic (not plot related) NPC creation tool tossing out the karma limits and just purchasing modules based on suggested age. For example a general manager of a stuffer shack (29 years old) would be able to purchase nationality, childhood, teen years and then additional modules to bring them up to their age limit i.e.
Anyway what do people think for a quick generic citizen generation method can life modules work like this?
I had this same idea back when I first read about Life Modules when RunFaster was released.
Now, a year later when I finally got around to purchasing a copy of it I am using it to give stats to my "Contacts" instead of using the basic Priorty or Karma methods.
I feel Life modules is a great way to fill in the story for an NPC.
I wouldn't do it for every random person in an adventure, but since Contacts are supposed to be made the same as PC's, this is the method I'm using for them.
Not to mention the bonus Knowledge skills most life modules come with really fluffs out what each NPC knows.
I think your method of creating a "Template" if you will in this same method for generic NPCs that you can meet "versions" of many times over is also a great idea. Toss in some quick rolls on the "Contact Quick Generator" stats tables & you could have the same "stats" for 4 NPCs but have them be Male/Human/Old, Female/Human/Young, Ork/Male/Young, Female/Elf/Middle Aged
-
12-14 may not be the very best dice pool you can get, but it is a good, respectable dice pool for a shadowrunner. But for your average wage slave, I would consider such a dice pool far too high.
12 dice is a good standard for "a thing you're good at." For a wage slave, it might be "the thing you're good at." Which may be less negotiation, perception, and shooting, and more engineering, software, or knowledge: paperwork. For a competent mall or park guard? I'd still give them twelve dice with their taser and perception, because those are the things that they do.
You can go up and down from there. I'd stick with increments of 4. 8 is decent, 4 is bad, 16 is great, 20 is elite. But those rule of 12 arbitrary dice pools are much more practical than statting out a wage slave.
-
@Blue Rose
Definately gotten a skewed idea of it then I was under the impression generic people (cops, lawyers, doctors, laborers, etc) were all around the 12-14 range and elite's were in the 20+ with the best of the best ranging into the 30's and 40's. I like what this will mean for any games I run/play in.
@Tarislar
I had random generation tables once they could generate everything height, weight, hair colour, eye colour, distinguishing marks, sex, gender orientation, penis/breast size, kinks, family members, important events growing up even for quick games your character class. My players were afraid to use them which I thought was silly if they didn't want to put the effort in themselves.
-
An elite generic and a named NPC have different standards of "elite." Generic elite black ops goon #3 throwing 20 dice for Sneaking and Automatics is reasonable.
When the players are being hunted down by legendary Johnny Two-Legs, the one-legged rigger, the named NPC who you actually build and stat out in full? Maybe she could swing the 30-40+ range once the runners are novahot drek.
-
I'm not even sure how you'd go about getting there but I've had way too many "less than 16 is not pulling your weight" and "7-9 for a secondary skill is a waste of points" to avoid that view.
-
I'm not even sure how you'd go about getting there but I've had way too many "less than 16 is not pulling your weight" and "7-9 for a secondary skill is a waste of points" to avoid that view.
Getting to 16 dice or getting to that viewpoint?
-
Getting to 20-30 dice on a mage.
-
On a starting character?
Starting with Exceptional Attribute, for Magic 7 and Spellcasting 6, with a specialization in whatever spells you care about most. That's 15 dice without much effort.
Elemental Focus is another +2. Rating 3 Power Focus, Rating 4 .Spellcasting Focus for your specialized class of spells makes another +7.
There's 24 dice before spending edge. If you can swing an Edge 6 human with Magic 7, then when you spend edge, you're throwing thirty dice to cast your spell. With explosions. Ignoring limits. And then you die of drain.
-
I see so power focus and spellcasting focus stack. Expensive though buying those and I've never heard of elemental focus.
-
Elemental Focus is a quality from... Street Grimoire, IIRC. +2 dice with a chosen element, but the drain is also of that element.
I'm pretty sure power focus and spellcasting focus stack. I don't see why they wouldn't. Of course, it's well into 'ask your GM' territory.
-
Page 318, core book: "only one focus may add its Force to a dice pool for any given test."
Getting high dice pools basically boils down to a high skill, a high linked attribute, and dice pool modifiers. For a mage, these modifiers are typically specializations, mentor spirit bonuses, and bonded magical foci. I don't completely buy into the "less than 16 is not pulling your weight" and "7-9 for a secondary skill is a waste of points" attitude. That said, mages, like deckers or front-line combat types, do benefit from a high dice pool. They suffer modifiers from visibility and background count, and are making opposed dice tests. So while 12 dice is nice, it is a good idea to at least get a specialization too.
-
Oh sure a high dice pool always helps its just looking at the enemies in the core book I personally feel the values of 12 and 7 for primary and secondary should work for a starting runner based on what you'd expect to face. Of course part of that is also what I can see a person being able to make reasonably easily experienced or not vs what you need a fair amount of skill/knowledge to produce and whether it requires specific choices. For example your build needs a quality (exceptional attribute) reducing the ones they can pick, then a special attribute point to raise magic as well, a quality from a non-core book, a power focus (costing money which is normally my mage's dump stat and I wind up short more often than not). Its not something a new player is likely to think of and it is something that requires a lot of trade off e.g. raising the 54k for the power focus. That alone is a minimum resources of D, karma for cash and not much else or a resources C with the corrresponding shortage of skill points or attribute points since you need magic at A.
-
Magic at A is optional, actually. Special attribute points from higher priority metatype can get you back up. However, that's more a trick for adepts.
-
Starting with Exceptional Attribute, for Magic 7 and Spellcasting 6, with a specialization in whatever spells you care about most. That's 15 dice without much effort.
Elemental Focus is another +2. Rating 3 Power Focus, Rating 4 .Spellcasting Focus for your specialized class of spells makes another +7.
There's 24 dice before spending edge. If you can swing an Edge 6 human with Magic 7, then when you spend edge, you're throwing thirty dice to cast your spell. With explosions. Ignoring limits. And then you die of drain.
As stated. Foci don't Stack. ANY of them. Not just those 2.
Also, Adding Elemental Focus is fine for a Combat Caster but if your specializing in any of the other 4 Spell Types that won't stack.
I can't say I'd like that kind of character myself.
Way too "Glass Cannon" for me.
You've shot a lot 1/2 your starting Karma for 1 die & lost a point of edge.
Dice pools that big means Overcasting is more dangerous than ever.
Investing in A-Magic, & at least C in Cash & Meta leaves you with crap for Attributes & Skills which means your unlikely to be able to do anything BUT cast spells & once the shooting starts the concept of Geek the Mage is even more important against a guy with 20+ dice pool.
I'd be a lot more inclined to go with something like Magic-C, Attr-B, Skills-C, Cash-D, Human-E & have a much lower dice pool of 14-18 depending on spell type.
At Chargen, the 2 casters in our last group had Combat Pools of 14 & 15 and they could dodge with pools of 14 & 10 when they were getting shot at IIRC.
They rarely had issues with connecting with a spell & dodging at least the 1st round of incoming fire.
-
I never said any of this was a good idea. Just answering a question as to how you get into the twenties for starting character spellcasting dice.
-
12 dice is way beyond what the average man should be tossing.
Joe Average has 3 to all attributes, and 3 skill. That's 6 dice. Maybe 8 for that one thing they do really well because they specialized in it. To get to rating 3 in a skill only takes 3 days and 12 karma, which I find a bit unlikely/unrealistic. But seeing how I'm the only person that cares about verisimilitude for that stuff I can let it fly for now.
The point is that 12 dice means they got 5 skill, 5 attribute, and 2 specialization. But the thing is, I don't find that realistic. Most people are lazy and have a hard time making time to work out or study to improve their minds. So I assume most people will be 3 or 4 in their attributes as a wageslave.
The reason a wageslave is a wageslave is because they're either proficient (rating 4) or at least skilled in their field (rating 5).
So I'd say the average wageslave is 4 attribute + 4 skill with maybe a specialization in their task. That's 10 dice. If they ever want to be more then just a wage slave, then they become indebted to the corp and get some ware installed into their meat sack. Which then could get them to 12. So that might make some sense actually.
Okay, I guess 12 dice can work, but I wouldn't go higher than that. As that'll start to get up to the corp exec and special forces dice pool ratings at something like 14-16 dice. Over 16 we're looking at elites.
-
I love how, over the course of that post, you basically came to exactly what I was saying with the rule of 12.
-
The sample contacts in Run Faster make a pretty decent baseline (note that they are noticeably lower-powered than the ones in the core book). I still think your average wage slave would be more around 8-9 dice for his/her specialties. 12 dice, you're looking at a competent office manager, or the person the other office workers go to for help. 4 dice, you're looking at the boss's nephew.
-
Which to me should mean a starting runner can have 12 dice and function fine but instead there's a strong pressure on the boards for 16+ as a minimum at least in the threads I've seen.
-
It depends on the game and the group. That said, Shadowrun is a game that greatly rewards specialization. Everyone on the team has a job that everyone else relies on them for. As part of the team, you need to be reliable. And you're facing challenges beyond what the average wage slave will.
16 is not a hard benchmark. 6 in your most important stat, 6 in your most important skill, a specialization in whatever you'll be using that skill for most, and something, anything, be it 'ware, chems, gear, or qualities, to give you a +2.
It isn't hard to hit that for your main shtick with any character. And protagonists are held to a higher standard than middle management.
-
Well that's true too I'd even say it punishes someone trying for a generalist build unless you have an insane amount of karma or really know the system and build to mechanics more than. Role playing.
-
The eternal problem with the jack of all trades has always been being a master of none. And Shadowrun punishes that generalist who doesn't get a niche pretty hard.
If you want to be that generalist, you still have to specialize in something, to be your main party role, and you still have to be good at that. Maybe less good, but a face getting 16 dice for a negotiation test while still having zots to spend on magic or rigging or underwater basket weaving isn't that hard. But if you really want to be a generalist, you're probably best off getting high attributes, a lot of skills at rank 1, and Edge in the 5-7 range.
-
Perhaps a second creme of the crop 30 dice pool is an elven, burnout, psyad, gunslinger:
Hard cap agility with expectional attribute and muscle toner 4 (with restricted gear) for base 13 agility. +6 hard capped (at start) shooting X skill +2 specialization, +4 psyad weapon skill boost, +6 with take aim and sharpshooter, +2 smartlink and you got a total of 33 dice before edge.
-
Pretty sure the physad skill boost would cap at +3 at chargen.
-
For a skill of 6, it would. For a skill of 7, you can get +4 (this is a change from SR4). Also, you can add a reflex recorder on top of that, since SR5 skills don't have an augmented maximum.
-
Honestly I start struggling when I try to make a character with starting die pools over 14 and that's for someone who's specialized and focused on one roll much less a generalist.
-
One thing to keep in mind that not every dice pool of 12 is equal. If you make low threshold open tests, 12 dice is plenty. If you are rolling dice in an opposed test with potential negative modifiers, don't get me wrong, 12 dice is still good, but it may not succeed regularly even against low-threat opposition such a thugs or street gangers. Fortunately, these dice pools also tend to be ones with more potential positive modifiers, too.
For melee or firearms, for example, you can improve your Agility with muscle toner or the adept Agility boost power, get a reflex recorder for that skill, get improved ability for that skill, get a smartlink, or get a weapon focus. Not an exhaustive list, but you get the idea. For magical ability, the main two things are mentor spirit bonuses and foci.
It's hard to get a starting character at the "sweet spot", where they are good at their main specialties but not clueless outside of that area. Characters don't have a set power level, just a continuum from generalist to specialist. And skills can vary in importance a lot in a campaign. Even looking at the archetypes - in some campaigns, the street samurai would face a lot of problems, defaulting to two dice for perception checks and only rolling one die for most social skill checks (and he can't even try to con anyone). The bounty hunter, on the other hand, would do a lot better with all of the skills that he has. In another campaign, though, the street samurai would be blowing away the opposition with his high dice pools, while the bounty hunter, who is slightly better than the average ganger in combat, would get chewed up by the Ares HTR team.
-
True I keep forgetting that mentor spirit bonus for some reason, never have the money at character creation for foci buying the ID's, gear, etc I feel I need. Stupid licencing laws magic licence, combat magic licence per spell, fake id, lifestyle (unless you want to live in the gutter), a gun so you don't default to target number 1, clothing, reagents, lodge (that's another big one).