Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chalkarts on <04-18-16/1729:05>
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It occured to me that a control rig was similar to a neurohelmet in Battletech.
Why are there no rigger mech suits?
Or do I just not have that book?
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You mean elemental/battle armor?
There are milspec armors in Run & Gun, but they aren't powered more than necessary to move their own weight and don't need rigger interface.
If you want to pilot a mech... that's actually doable. You need Rigger 5 and add arms and legs to a car and install a bunch of weapon mounts.
But a neuro helmet is actually more like a trode net, allowing you to control your vehicle in AR/VR
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If you're thinking like the power lifter from Aliens, or an exoskeleton thing, there was mention of why that tech wasn't popularized in the SR4 book Attitude, if memory serves. I think it was mentioned in the description of the Iron Will (again, I think) that tech like artifical muscles made bulky, expensive tech like an exoskeleton obsolete.
ETA:
Yep, Attitude is what I was thinking of:
Manhattan’s unionized dockworkers used the Iron Will hydraulic exoskeleton when they were loading and unloading cargo in the early ‘30s and ‘40s. It’s kind of like a manservant drone, but you wear it. As the prices of augmentations and drones dropped, things like the Iron Will became less popular, and now there’s maybe two hundred still in use. Street artist Christopher Guidry, or “Gee Man,” has been remodeling them into a more intimidating, metahuman-shaped skeletal structure, complete with skullcap and welded ribcage. In some versions, chemical reaction-created steam is used to operate the actuators, mainly for the cool effect of having steam wa fting around you.
For what it's worth, I created house rules for exoskeleton like the ones seen in Elysium. Full details here. (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=19639)
In terms of mechs, I guess anthroform drones are the closest thing you'll get. You could always supersize them and ride inside of one as a house rule.
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I could easily see a combat rigger modding an iron will to be an offensive powerhouse. Add armor, upgrade handling and speed, and weapon mounts, upgrade vehicle/drone arms. Next thing you know light mecha!!
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You... could always do a search for the pre-Street Grimoire thread about an Iron Man suit on these forums...
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;D Mecha suits!!
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Believe me, the day that they get greenlit, the day I'm ALL OVER THAT ACTION.
Bubblegum Crisis is my totem animal. :D
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Any chance 5e will see superficial cybernetics reprinted?
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Any chance 5e will see superficial cybernetics reprinted?
Define superficial.
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As in 4e Spy Games' reduced cost, reduced functionality, non-invasive and removable cyberlimbs.
"Collect all six parts to make ersatz Iron Man", effectively. Without the flying, weapons, or as much armour.
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Ares actually build a BattleMech for Desert wars.
(which was quickly pointed out to be completely useless in modern combat, but hey, it looks cool.)
Otherwise the problem with mech suits would be, overpowered in game , completely unreasonable for a runner to have(way to expensive and state-of-the-art Military equipment), and any Runner who somehow got one would end up with a massive manhunt against him. It would be like using a tank or something, if you run around with that, corps are gonna take you seriously, which is bad because they have an entire army and you don't.
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Have you read/looked at the harden mil-spec armor out of Run and Gun? Minus the jets and built in weapons the are iron man suits.
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Believe me, the day that they get greenlit, the day I'm ALL OVER THAT ACTION.
Bubblegum Crisis is my totem animal. :D
oh such and awesome series and two!
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Have you read/looked at the harden mil-spec armor out of Run and Gun? Minus the jets and built in weapons the are iron man suits.
I ... might have had something to do with those hardsui... err ... hardened suits.
<.<
>.>
*ninjavanish*
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It occured to me that a control rig was similar to a neurohelmet in Battletech.
BattleTech, and no. Control rigs are not similar to BattleMech Neurohelmets at all. With a control rig, you can jump into a drone/vehicle and pilot it. With an Neurohelmet...you fine tune the stability of the 'Mech while it is moving. If you're looking for more of a 1:1 match up you should be looking at BattleTech's Enhanced Imaging system. But even that has its differences, in BattleTech the pilots have to go on a pharmacological regime to slow the eroding of their sanity. A Clan MechWarrior with the EI system rarely lasts a decade.
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I think part of the reason they don't exist is, they don't need to. Why put yourself into something when you can wirelessly rig it, allowing for say, more fuel or bullets or armor instead of a big cavity that has to be designed to hold a person. Combined with that the humanoid shape isn't really the best for combat. Wheels are faster and can hold more weight, and flying units allow flight... Humanoid is really just flimsy, and all the limbs are vulnerable spots. I'd rather have a big ol' box with some armored gunports and treads than something with delicate hands and feet any day when it comes to combat.
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I think something like the real world Kuratas would be a suitable mecha for shadowrun. Its not too big and carries a reasonable amount of weapons. Sure it might be something outside a Runner reach to own but for a high powered game it could make for a good challenge for a group of prime runners.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuratas
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Why put yourself into something when you can wirelessly rig it, allowing for say, more fuel or bullets or armor instead of a big cavity that has to be designed to hold a person.
Wireless rigging means somebody can override it.
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Or do I just not have that book?
Rigger 4. :)
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Why put yourself into something when you can wirelessly rig it, allowing for say, more fuel or bullets or armor instead of a big cavity that has to be designed to hold a person.
Wireless rigging means somebody can override it.
Yup, or you install a rigger cocoon and suddenly there is no wireless. And while the humanoid step has limits, there are plently of things tanks and such can't do. Plus, you can have wheels in the humanoid, such as in ankle joint and knees, and suddenly it can move at speeds similar to your tank. Plus tank combat is limited much more than what a humanoid could do.
Have you read/looked at the harden mil-spec armor out of Run and Gun? Minus the jets and built in weapons the are iron man suits.
I ... might have had something to do with those hardsui... err ... hardened suits.
<.<
>.>
*ninjavanish*
Bless you Freelancer ninja! (Deep bow)
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Have you read/looked at the harden mil-spec armor out of Run and Gun? Minus the jets and built in weapons the are iron man suits.
So they're pretty much a Mech Suit minus everything that would really make em Mech Suits?
They are REALLY good armor but thats it and they are actually harder to move in(normaly a "Mecha suit" should make it easier)
Not to mention if you start to use that against corps/states, you're gonna be a wanted man, and not the good kind of wanted.
Maybe not if you're using it once, but if word goes around of a runner walking around in high-spec mil gear making problems....
Corporate armies where would we be without them.
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What you mean armor that can soak a single .50 cal round (as in no damage to the user) would be hard to move in? Shock!! So is actual body armor, such as majority of the heavy armors in SR 5. Full Body armor out of the core being one of the exceptions. And yes, with some mods (currently via house rules) you could easily make a mecha suit. Or just mod the mobility chair/car in Rigger 5.0.
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Have you read/looked at the harden mil-spec armor out of Run and Gun? Minus the jets and built in weapons the are iron man suits.
Restrictive and clunky, with few mod options. That's not exactly how I think of iron man.
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Honestly, I think powered armor suits from Arsenal is closer to mech suits than mil-spec armor, which while certainly powered, isn't quite what I would associate with something like an Iron Man suit, unless you're going for an Iron Monger feel.
Don't know anything about anime, so...
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The larger problems with this and anything like this is simple economy of action and energy.
The first giant problem you have is energy. You need a power source that is robust enough to installed in the unit, and powerful enough to move the unit. This is a problem. They power levels required to operate the system, dictate the over all size..
Next, you have to consider the mechanical forces involved, and the energy requirements to move them. And this is a double whammy. Lets look at a few servos and motor control assemblies.
The energy required to move a 3psi butterfly valve is .10 amps on average. (if you have an automated sprinkler system for you lawn, you have 3psi butterfly valves, as this is the general valve system used in 90% of those systems. Of course, this means is can ONLY move up to 3 pounds of force.... about the strength of a newborn baby.... The amount of power required for a servo to move an 800 pound object runs roughly 30 to 50 amps....
And that's for a single servo, now multiply that by the number of servos in the system.. And lets assume an incredibly simple system, 2 servos per arm and leg, and 2 servos in the torso... that 10 servos at 40amps (avg).. that's 400 amps of power! (about twice the pull of a 2000sq/ft home).
Of course, you could do it with a less power intensive system, a hydraulic fluid system... The amount of mechanical/electrical energy required to push fluid is much less, thus allowing for savings in energy. (roughly 3 amps per servo) But, the system is much slower to respond, and you have to have a storage tank to hold and recycle the hydro fluid....
And, we have not even touched on the mechanical stresses, the weight of the system (which must be accounted)..... In short, to get more "performance", you need to increase weight, when you increase weight, you increase the energy requirements to move, which means a more robust power system, which means more weight, which means a more robust power system, which means more weight, which means you need a more robust power system...... (And on and on it goes)
So what could power such a system? Sort answer; Not much.... your choices for power are limited...... battery, engine, or reactor.
A battery capable of providing 10hours of power at 400amps would be MASSIVE (as in battery bank weighing in the THOUSANDS of kilograms), and that only provides power for our simple system for 10 hours.
Now, the same system could be powered by a 15hp diesel or gas motor. (assuming 24vdc) but you now have to worry about fuel....
A reactor could work, but you also need a turbine and water to generate the power. (a reactor creates heat, the heat turns water to steam, steam turns a turbine and generates your electricity). Not to mention a containment and shielding system for said heat and radiation.....
There has been several attempts to create a "walker" style tank for a number of years...And even a few prototypes though out history... all with the same result.... Too expensive, reduced battlefield performance, high maintenance costs, and limited armor protection.
**(Adamo1618 is an electrical engineer, and should have even more knowledge then I do on power systems, so we might be lucky enough for him to weigh in too)
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Of all the topics to start getting persnickety over realism, rather than verisimilitude, I wouldn't pick this one. YMV, I guess. ;)
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The larger problems with this and anything like this is simple economy of action and energy.
The first giant problem you have is energy. You need a power source that is robust enough to installed in the unit, and powerful enough to move the unit. This is a problem. They power levels required to operate the system, dictate the over all size..
Next, you have to consider the mechanical forces involved, and the energy requirements to move them. And this is a double whammy. Lets look at a few servos and motor control assemblies.
The energy required to move a 3psi butterfly valve is .10 amps on average. (if you have an automated sprinkler system for you lawn, you have 3psi butterfly valves, as this is the general valve system used in 90% of those systems. Of course, this means is can ONLY move up to 3 pounds of force.... about the strength of a newborn baby.... The amount of power required for a servo to move an 800 pound object runs roughly 30 to 50 amps....
And that's for a single servo, now multiply that by the number of servos in the system.. And lets assume an incredibly simple system, 2 servos per arm and leg, and 2 servos in the torso... that 10 servos at 40amps (avg).. that's 400 amps of power! (about twice the pull of a 2000sq/ft home).
Of course, you could do it with a less power intensive system, a hydraulic fluid system... The amount of mechanical/electrical energy required to push fluid is much less, thus allowing for savings in energy. (roughly 3 amps per servo) But, the system is much slower to respond, and you have to have a storage tank to hold and recycle the hydro fluid....
And, we have not even touched on the mechanical stresses, the weight of the system (which must be accounted)..... In short, to get more "performance", you need to increase weight, when you increase weight, you increase the energy requirements to move, which means a more robust power system, which means more weight, which means a more robust power system, which means more weight, which means you need a more robust power system...... (And on and on it goes)
So what could power such a system? Sort answer; Not much.... your choices for power are limited...... battery, engine, or reactor.
A battery capable of providing 10hours of power at 400amps would be MASSIVE (as in battery bank weighing in the THOUSANDS of kilograms), and that only provides power for our simple system for 10 hours.
Now, the same system could be powered by a 15hp diesel or gas motor. (assuming 24vdc) but you now have to worry about fuel....
A reactor could work, but you also need a turbine and water to generate the power. (a reactor creates heat, the heat turns water to steam, steam turns a turbine and generates your electricity). Not to mention a containment and shielding system for said heat and radiation.....
There has been several attempts to create a "walker" style tank for a number of years...And even a few prototypes though out history... all with the same result.... Too expensive, reduced battlefield performance, high maintenance costs, and limited armor protection.
**(Adamo1618 is an electrical engineer, and should have even more knowledge then I do on power systems, so we might be lucky enough for him to weigh in too)
In a setting with functional unlimited powered battery cars, hand held laser weapons, and hand held railgun (now there is something that using a large batter, current one goes a naval ships) you are going to try and be realistic? Common, pick a better argument than realism, because ignoring the whole magic bit, I'm going to point to the matrix and ask wtf? Use realism to make that crap work.
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Also don't forget artificial muscle fibers that apparently can make you stronger than power lifters, or the whole nanotech thing enabling complex surgeries like wired reflexes to exist, and custom grown tissue that makes you better in every way.
I think it's safe to say that this is one universe that is technologically superior to the modern world in almost every way.
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Also don't forget artificial muscle fibers that apparently can make you stronger than power lifters, or the whole nanotech thing enabling complex surgeries like wired reflexes to exist, and custom grown tissue that makes you better in every way.
I think it's safe to say that this is one universe that is technologically superior to the modern world in almost every way.
And this artificial muscle doesn't require massive skeletal restructuring so the physical frame won't snap under the strains caused by the significantly stronger/faster muscles. And how does the Str 9 Agility 9 cyber limb have power (we are going to ignore how these would conflict with skeletal structure).
So again, please don't use realism for why ShadowRun doesn't have Mecha of some kind. It just doesn't work, because than most everything else will become suddenly impossible as well.
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Honestly, I think powered armor suits from Arsenal is closer to mech suits than mil-spec armor, which while certainly powered, isn't quite what I would associate with something like an Iron Man suit, unless you're going for an Iron Monger feel.
Don't know anything about anime, so...
Goodness! We need to introduce you to the original Bubblegum Crisis series (All six episodes of it) ... you'll see *so* *much* *Shadowrun* in there!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajTAnMqhZB8
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Mmm, bubblegum! Oh, and hot chicks in sweet mechs!
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Also don't forget artificial muscle fibers that apparently can make you stronger than power lifters, or the whole nanotech thing enabling complex surgeries like wired reflexes to exist, and custom grown tissue that makes you better in every way.
I think it's safe to say that this is one universe that is technologically superior to the modern world in almost every way.
And this artificial muscle doesn't require massive skeletal restructuring so the physical frame won't snap under the strains caused by the significantly stronger/faster muscles. And how does the Str 9 Agility 9 cyber limb have power (we are going to ignore how these would conflict with skeletal structure).
So again, please don't use realism for why ShadowRun doesn't have Mecha of some kind. It just doesn't work, because than most everything else will become suddenly impossible as well.
I'm not sure if that was directed at me, but if it was note that I am actually agreeing with you :)
Honestly, I think powered armor suits from Arsenal is closer to mech suits than mil-spec armor, which while certainly powered, isn't quite what I would associate with something like an Iron Man suit, unless you're going for an Iron Monger feel.
Don't know anything about anime, so...
Goodness! We need to introduce you to the original Bubblegum Crisis series (All six episodes of it) ... you'll see *so* *much* *Shadowrun* in there!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajTAnMqhZB8
Yeah, pass :)
Different strokes for different folks and all that. I'm more of a film noir guy; anime is not for me.
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No, it wasn't Herr Brackhaus. Just adding additional points to the ones you had.
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Cool.
Just out of curiosity in general, what kind of size vehicles/suits are we talking about in general when the term "mecha" is used?
I've been browsing the web and looking at images, and the suits I've seen vary from troll sized to fit a human inside (i.e. 9 feet tall or so) to BattleTech and Pacific Rim sized jaegers (i.e. hundreds of feet tall).
Obviously, the latter would be completely inconceivable for a runner to ever get their hands on, as we're then talking beyond milspec in the SR universe. The smaller suits seems like something that could easily be houseruled with the drone rules; drop a rigger cocoon in a Juggernaught and you're good to go as far as I'm concerned.
At least, that's how I'd handle it at my table; maybe just add +25/+50/+100 percent to the cost of the drone to make it fit a dwarf/human, elf, ork/troll, respectively. And only allow it for certain sized drones. Job's a good'n!
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Again, depends on the setting. For SR I wouldnt see anything of Gundam size or larger. I would figure the Juggernaut size to maybe slightly taller to at most 20ft (~6m). Modding the Juggernaut to have a Rigger Cocoon would be a fun way to make that thing functional in combat.
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Yeah, pass :)
Different strokes for different folks and all that. I'm more of a film noir guy; anime is not for me.
And what if I found you some noir anime? Because, you know ... it totally exists.
(Cyberpunk, of course, is *rooted* in noir, which is why I personally run "CyberNoir" games for my crew.)
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I'd give it a try, of course, but I'll be the first to admit that the art style of what I've seen of anime so far is not one of my favourites to begin with so it'd probably be a hard sell.
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What you mean armor that can soak a single .50 cal round (as in no damage to the user) would be hard to move in? Shock!! So is actual body armor, such as majority of the heavy armors in SR 5. Full Body armor out of the core being one of the exceptions.
Thats exactly the point i was making, it's only (very good) armor, but nothing like a mecha suit. If it doesn't "enhance" your physical power, and weighs you down, it doesn't qualify as a MechaSuit, no matter how good it protects you.
As for the whole Anime discussion: Ghost in the Shell. All a cyberpunk fan needs.
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I've actually got a player trying to do this now for his missions character. The catch is, he's a gnome with a Body and Str of 2 each and he weighs about 60 pounds. He wants to ride around on his Anthro drones a la Mad Max, Master-Blaster style.
I'm struggling with finding a way to say yes here, but my initial reaction is to require him to buy "Extra Seating" (2 MP) so that he can attach himself properly and then if he wants the full armor shell another 2MP for a rigger cocoon. If course it will all be child-sized as I'd never allow this with any full sized character. But hey, if they guy wants to play a character with a physical condition monitor of 7 :o (thanks to neotany) and an overflow of 2 :o :o , you got to give him something for creativity.
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Speaking of which; does SR5 have rules for what happens if the vehicle you're in is destroyed?
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It does, but that rule takes the cake as the worst rule in the book, and not becasue it's confusing, just becasue it's completely dumb. Pg 201 says in you take damage based on the body of the vehicle you're in. It has nothing to do with the speed at which you were moving... So if you're in a bigger vehicle -standing still- you take more damage than a racing motorcycle? ??? Wait, I guess that's for vehicle crashes, but it's still a dumb rule.
As far as the Master-Blaster combo, I also have to figure a intuitive way to account for the fact that he's glued to the thing that is going to be taking fire. Simply declaring them to be separate targets doesn't seem right, and he's going to be a VR-ragdoll on the back most of the time.
There's so many out-of-the-box questions here. I want to be relatively conservative since a primary concern is that another GM (at GenCon specifically) will see things differently and club him with the nerf bat. Particularly since he'll be sitting next to me and not in front of me...
Does the drone defend when someone shoots at the rigger?
Does the rigger ever have to resist damage from attacks that pierce the drone armor?
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Cool.
Just out of curiosity in general, what kind of size vehicles/suits are we talking about in general when the term "mecha" is used?
I've been browsing the web and looking at images, and the suits I've seen vary from troll sized to fit a human inside (i.e. 9 feet tall or so) to BattleTech and Pacific Rim sized jaegers (i.e. hundreds of feet tall).
Obviously, the latter would be completely inconceivable for a runner to ever get their hands on, as we're then talking beyond milspec in the SR universe. The smaller suits seems like something that could easily be houseruled with the drone rules; drop a rigger cocoon in a Juggernaught and you're good to go as far as I'm concerned.
At least, that's how I'd handle it at my table; maybe just add +25/+50/+100 percent to the cost of the drone to make it fit a dwarf/human, elf, ork/troll, respectively. And only allow it for certain sized drones. Job's a good'n!
What I think they are talking about is generally called Powered Armor which is at it's largest about 9ft. tall. Mechs have a certain connotation to them that at least to me says over 20ft. A mech would be tank bait or or drone bait in the SR universe. To big and slow. I like Herr Brackhaus would make a powered armor by looking at large or heavy drones. I would also use the drone rules for armor, equipment, etc... If they are vehicle based it just too over the top. By the way Bubblegum Crisis is awesome! Bubblegum Crash is good as well and so is AD Police. BGC 2040 is horrible the Voomers look like muppets.
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What you mean armor that can soak a single .50 cal round (as in no damage to the user) would be hard to move in? Shock!! So is actual body armor, such as majority of the heavy armors in SR 5. Full Body armor out of the core being one of the exceptions.
Thats exactly the point i was making, it's only (very good) armor, but nothing like a mecha suit. If it doesn't "enhance" your physical power, and weighs you down, it doesn't qualify as a MechaSuit, no matter how good it protects you.
As for the whole Anime discussion: Ghost in the Shell. All a cyberpunk fan needs.
Actually, it works really well as hardsuits, which may or may not enhance physical attributes, but do make the wear almost impossible to kill with normal weapons. The problem is most people thing of Iron Man. These are more like the beginnings of the hardsuits used in Star Ship Troopers (the book). They just haven't added so of the other features yet, or we get the "older" models in R&G. Since an equivalent of War hasn't come out for 5th.
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Powered armor that actually enhanced the user was in Arsenal in SR4, not WAR!. The milspec armor in SR4 was described in a similar fashion to SR5, but additional modifications that I think most people would associate with primitive Iron Man like armor was allowed, like the below:
Integrated Weapons: Any of the cyberguns and cyber-melee weapons available for cyberlimbs (see pp. 336-337, SR4, and pp. 42–43 and 46–48, Augmentation) may also be integrated into military-grade armor at the same Capacity and nuyen costs.
Mobility Upgrade: By integrating additional servo-motors, improved joints, and similar enhancements, the armor’s mobility is increased to allow users that are not as strong and well trained to wear it without being slowed down too much. This enhancement reduces the encumbrance modifiers to Agility and Reaction due to the worn armor (see Armor and Encumbrance, p. 149, SR4) by its rating, and also adds a dice pool modifier equal to its rating to all Running Tests.
Strength Upgrade: This upgrade adds additional servos, hydraulic pumps, and an improved internal structure to the armor that increases the character’s Strength attribute by its rating. The usual rules for the maximum augmented attribute (see Attribute Ratings, p. 62, SR4) do not apply to this enhancement, since the increment is due to fully external mechanics and the sheer mass of the armor.
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With some tweaking those could be use used with the harden armor we have now, like the movement upgrade removing restricted. Or we might get something similar in a later book. Wakshaani, recreate this for 5th! Even if it is only a houserule to be posted here or in the child board of GM Lounge.
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Well with those mods it would fall under Power Armor
For me the key point is always that power armor either makes movement easier or the user stronger. Which the current Ed5. MilSpec armor doesn't(it does the opposite).
My Guideline is:
Normal Armor: Movement is mostly powered by the wearer, as such heavy armor decreases mobility, especially when worn over long periods.
Power Armor: Movement is mostly powered by the armor, allowing a person to wear it for a long time . May increases the wearers physical abilities. May be larger than a person. May have mounted weapons. example: Space Marine Armor, XV22 Stealthsuit, Fallout Power Armor. (and pretty much most Sci-Fi armors)
Mecha Suit: Larger than a person. Replaces physical attributes of wearer. Usually comes with mounted/build-in weapons or tools. example: L.E.O Exosuit, XV8 Crisis Battlesuit .
Mini-Mecha: Larger then Mecha Suit and "You pilot it, instead of wearing it." Goliath(StarCraft), Titanfall Mechs, Mantis(Halo)
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Xexanoth
Cool, by that definition milspec armor would definitely be normal armor, but if we incorporated the SR4 modifications it could be made into power armor.
Mecha suits would in my opinion by modifying drones large enough to carry a person, which to my mind is pretty much the Juggernaught and not much else.
Mini-Mecha is as far as I'm concerned not in the scope of Shadowrun, and even if it was it wouldn't be something most Shadowrunners would ever encounter. If they did, I think that would classify as an "oh shit, we've screwed the pooch" moment :D
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With some tweaking those could be use used with the harden armor we have now, like the movement upgrade removing restricted. Or we might get something similar in a later book. Wakshaani, recreate this for 5th! Even if it is only a houserule to be posted here or in the child board of GM Lounge.
I had a rules prototype together for it, in a VERY rough form, but, my space allotment wasn't there. Some of the other stuff I did up didn't make it either. Totally fine and part of the process. :) The balance isn't that hard, but the game balance is. Cyberware's financial cost can be partially compensated for via Essence, but a suit giving a similar Strength boost doesn't have that downside. To balance it, you kinda need it to be more expensive than a cyber version, or less-good in a different way. If not, then you abandon cyber.
Case in point: Smartgun links. How many people take them in their eyes, now, when glasses, goggles, or freakin' contact lenses do the same job for less money and leave your Essence untouched?
Case #2: How many people take Datajacks when 'trodes are every bit as good but are cheaper and don't cost Essence?
Realisticly, an exo-skeleton built into an armored suit should be less expensive than cyberware. If you made it, say, a thousand per +1 Strength, you crush both Cyberlimbs and Muscle Augmentation in one pass. So, you have to compensate for that in another way, or you jack up the price to, say, 20,000 a point to make it competitive, but then you chew on immersion like crazy. (Wait. Cybereyes cost 100 but glasses are a thousand?!)
It's a tricky thing, but I wouldn't at all be opposed to going back to it at another time. Like I said, I'm a huge fan of Bubblegum and similar things, and like a proper Battletecher from the wayback, I love my big stompy mecha too. Slotting in some reasonable stuff is possible, but it can also shake up the world a bit, so you have to approach that carefully. After all, *I* might think it was cool for all cops to be stomping around in 4 meter tall suits instead of patrol cars, but making it the norm changes a whole Hell of a lot of the setting. As a writer, I'm here as a caretaker of the franchise, not a mighty GodKing. So, you go carefully.
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I had a rules prototype together for it, in a VERY rough form, but, my space allotment wasn't there. Some of the other stuff I did up didn't make it either. Totally fine and part of the process. :) The balance isn't that hard, but the game balance is. Cyberware's financial cost can be partially compensated for via Essence, but a suit giving a similar Strength boost doesn't have that downside. To balance it, you kinda need it to be more expensive than a cyber version, or less-good in a different way. If not, then you abandon cyber.
I don't agree with this at all. If the GM lets you walk around in an armored tank without repercussions, that's not a game balance issue to my mind.
Case in point: Smartgun links. How many people take them in their eyes, now, when glasses, goggles, or freakin' contact lenses do the same job for less money and leave your Essence untouched?
Any dedicated cybersamurai, because of the increased bonus?
Case #2: How many people take Datajacks when 'trodes are every bit as good but are cheaper and don't cost Essence?
Again, any dedicated mundane hacker?
Realisticly, an exo-skeleton built into an armored suit should be less expensive than cyberware. If you made it, say, a thousand per +1 Strength, you crush both Cyberlimbs and Muscle Augmentation in one pass. So, you have to compensate for that in another way, or you jack up the price to, say, 20,000 a point to make it competitive, but then you chew on immersion like crazy. (Wait. Cybereyes cost 100 but glasses are a thousand?!)
Again, not sure I agree with this. Prices for 'ware in this edition is a different argument, though, but I have no issue with a mechanized piece of armor being better than 'ware on the simple grounds that any time you take a stroll around the block in your walking tank you'll have HTR in milspec armor bearing down on you in short order.
And I don't buy the "should be cheaper than 'ware" argument because ware is mass-produced. The number of uses for these kinds of suits are highly limited, and thus simple supply and demand would dictate that getting one would be about as hard and cost as much as a main battle tank, because that's what you'll be when you're wearing one.
It's a tricky thing, but I wouldn't at all be opposed to going back to it at another time. Like I said, I'm a huge fan of Bubblegum and similar things, and like a proper Battletecher from the wayback, I love my big stompy mecha too. Slotting in some reasonable stuff is possible, but it can also shake up the world a bit, so you have to approach that carefully. After all, *I* might think it was cool for all cops to be stomping around in 4 meter tall suits instead of patrol cars, but making it the norm changes a whole Hell of a lot of the setting. As a writer, I'm here as a caretaker of the franchise, not a mighty GodKing. So, you go carefully.
This is a piece of gear that fits in a WAR! book, not a gear book aimed at shadowrunners, because in the spirit of the setting they are more often than not more like lightly armored (by comparison to mech suits, anyway) special forces units, not a squad of MBTs.
So yeah, agree to disagree.
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Again, not sure I agree with this. Prices for 'ware in this edition is a different argument, though, but I have no issue with a mechanized piece of armor being better than 'ware on the simple grounds that any time you take a stroll around the block in your walking tank you'll have HTR in milspec armor bearing down on you in short order.
And I don't buy the "should be cheaper than 'ware" argument because ware is mass-produced. The number of uses for these kinds of suits are highly limited, and thus simple supply and demand would dictate that getting one would be about as hard and cost as much as a main battle tank, because that's what you'll be when you're wearing one.
/signed
in my opinion the MilSpec Armor is already to cheap. 25k to get 20 hardened armor is just way to low, it pretty much makes you immune to everything but rockets, apds-snipers or direct combat spells, add 10k more and you're at 23, which reduces damage even further. Considering how expensive most military equipment is, it just doesn't seem right.
The mini Tank Drones in Rigger 5 have less armor than that, and they cost 10 times as much.
As for the ware argument:
The one advantage ware has is that it's hard to take away, is always on and alot of it is "hidden".
Same with the Cybereys vs Glasses, the smartlink or other eye augmentations can't do anything if someone takes your glasses.
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The way I see military grade powered armor it is used by special forces primarily in the assault role e.i. ESWAT from Appleseed. It is either expensive, experimental, or both. The weapon system is only used in built up areas like cities, mountains, forests, etc... You need to kill a bunch of terrorists in an arcology and do not need to worry about casualties this is your tool. There probably are specialized versions for underwater or space borne use. Powered Armor would not be used in open terrain ever, as they cannot carry enough armor or armament. Also they move at the pace of person not that of a vehicle so they do not have the ability to move into cover quickly. The advantages exo-suits bring to the fight is that you can load them down with man portables. Belt fed Panther Assault Cannon no problem. Need to carry around a TOW and a mini-gun with more than 20 seconds of ammo accept no substitute. Plus you can stack on the armor and not worry about movement penalties or your soldier getting tired. There are however drawbacks. Limited battery life. Relatively thin armor compared with some full grade military weapons. Weight and size would also be a downside. Of course no suit would be over 9 ft. tall. Most would probably be 7 to 8 feet. Anything over ten would make the powered armor to big to work in a building.
The reason they would be used instead of drones is that an exo-suit would be hard to shut down with jammers. If I was a Shadowrunner I would steal or buy a couple of military grade jammers on me at all times just to mess with wireless signals.
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Case #2: How many people take Datajacks when 'trodes are every bit as good but are cheaper and don't cost Essence?
Again, any dedicated mundane hacker?
You have to have a datajack, if you ever want to go on one of those "deep dives" (or whatever they are being called) to the Foundation (?) of the matrix, or be able to naturally interface with the Matrix (i.e. Technomancers). As I recall, you have to be able to go full immersion into the Matrix in order to actually get into the Foundation(?); it's stated quite clearly in the rules for it. Also trodes don't reduce noise like datajacks do, and you can stack datajack bonuses for increased noise reduction; that's rather important in Chicago where most places you run will have the background count.
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As other posted, I disagree with your sentiments, Wak. Powered Armor/Hard Suits won't replace cyber/bioware. Make so the "armor" has fixed STR and Agility say Str 10 and 8 Agility before up to +4 to each stat for the heavy with the lighter armors having higher agility and lower STR and these do effect limit while in the suit and requires battery packs (fusion cores, whatever) that only last ~4 hours, less during heavy combat. This makes them more of trump cards/SHTF units. After that time it functions as milspec armor (equal to whatever class of armor it is, light, med, heavy) but without the STR and Agility upgrades and movement becomes restricted. Give the armor extra mod capacity for cyber limb and cyber weapons (again only fictional with power) and your set. Heck, make it were the harden quality only functions with power as well if you are worried about balance.
Also, what runner wants a limited use armor that will call HTR teams using at least Heavy Mil-Spec armor, ADPS or better ammo, heavy sniper weapons, railguns, laser weapons, etc. Or worse yet, they just level the block and "worry" about the collateral damage later.
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Or, better yet; don't give any Agility/Reaction improvements from the armor; you can only go so fast, and if your armor goes too fast you're going to end up with shaken baby syndrome from it going faster than you can and you bounce around the inside. Strength alone, while powerful, isn't the be-all end-all. It'll put more power behind melee builds and let ranged builds carry bigger forms of dakka. I'd also say some Adept powers wouldn't help you inside Powered Armor; Traceless Walk, Penetrating Strike and Hang Time, for example. Perhaps increase the multiplier on Agility for movement rates as well, but that's a debatable option.
With it being highly Forbidden and stuck with a short battery lifespan (make the batteries either unchangeable in the field or extremely expensive (sort of a 'you have to have a backer in order to have batteries to switch out)), you can balance out the increased armor and Strength. It being more expensive than 'ware that has been in production for decades makes total sense; the first computer chips were absurdly expensive, but as production was increased, the cost went down.
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Or, better yet; don't give any Agility/Reaction improvements from the armor; you can only go so fast, and if your armor goes too fast you're going to end up with shaken baby syndrome from it going faster than you can and you bounce around the inside. Strength alone, while powerful, isn't the be-all end-all. It'll put more power behind melee builds and let ranged builds carry bigger forms of dakka. I'd also say some Adept powers wouldn't help you inside Powered Armor; Traceless Walk, Penetrating Strike and Hang Time, for example. Perhaps increase the multiplier on Agility for movement rates as well, but that's a debatable option.
Some of this I agree with, like Adept's Penetrating Strike and Traceless Walk. Hang time already calls out an armor limit.
But shaken baby syndrome, really? Going by that arguement cyberlimbs would/could do the same to the user, or rip itself off cause the rest of the bone structure cant support the increased abilities!
You don't think the operator will be strapped in, actually hooked up to the armor, and it not made for the operator (aka custom fit)? I'm pretty sure it would be, also, with long hours in training so you don't kill yourself or others. Again, this stuff for more militarist games, with an almost PQ (same cost at character creation and after, like martial arts) is required to operate the armor without negative effects.
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Cyberlimbs are built into you (reinforced connections and all) with DNI and paid with Essence. Not to mention the time-frame for acclimatizing yourself to the new limb (they sort of hand-wave that into recovery times).
Just because you're strapped in doesn't mean you won't give yourself whiplash, and just because you're strapped in doesn't mean you'll be able to benefit from some kind of 'this will improve your Reaction' bonus. I mean, how would it be doing that with your brain?
I like your idea of a Positive Quality for training to use Power Armor without penalties, though.
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I never said Reaction, so why do you keep bring that Stat up? I said agility and strength, to purely muscle based Stats. So no, the system wont upgrade reaction or initiative in any way. Only the two Stats effected by cyberlimbs, but like limbs, replace the users actual Stats with the suits, customized to that user, like either the powerloader from Aliens or Power Armor, especially like Fallout 4's. The powerloader (aka civilian model) whiplash or other negative effects could/would be and issue. Fallout 4/Iron Man style (Bleeding Edge Military Hardware) it wouldn't be an issue, unless you wish to inflict whiplash on all Full Body Armor users?
Also, on the subject of whiplash unless you want to bring up whiplash with riggers (who have been betten enough over the years) why are we worry about that for this for a functionally full body armor (with perks).
As for the sorta PQ, yeah, nothing this sweat comes without some kind of cost, besides a crap load of Nueyen.
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I bring up Reaction because it is something others can bring up. It's also something that I would consider a rough cap for certain speed effects (which is also why I consider it a good skill for Pilot). When it comes to Agility boosts from outside sources (non-'ware/magic), having no natural increase to Reaction says to me that you'll hurt yourself.
Full Body Armor isn't powered, why would that have any whiplash effect?
Riggers are generally controlling via remote or are jumped into the device/drone/vehicle; its pretty hard to get whiplash (hyperextension injuries) when your body isn't moving. I'd usually attribute whiplash when driving to crashes and glitches, and were power armor to be around with speed enhancements, over-extension of other joints due to the armor moving faster than you (and your muscles) can react to. Especially since if you hurt yourself, you generally recoil. The super-agility then whips itself the other direction, causing more damage.
I still think raising Agility with Power Armor wouldn't really work. How does it make you more dexterous? Actuators over-exaggerating your movements? That's not going to help. It's going to be fiendishly difficult to control as well. It's not like any other form of power armor I've seen actually increases your Agility either; armor and strength, and maybe a somewhat faster speed because your legs are now bigger and powered by those strength boosts (remember the Running skill is Strength based).
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Moving speed however is agility based. Speed improvement is a part of many SciFi power armors, which in shadowrun means more agility, and most power armors require training since they are hard to use as you pointed out.
As for the whole "better reactions", that would fall under the speed improvement in most cases, you're now faster so that you actually can move enough to get out of the way(or do whatever else you needed doing fast enough).
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Not to mention that SR4 mil-spec armor had Agility and Strength enhancements, so there is precedent for it.
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Movement speed can easily be altered in other ways; some Infected, for example, have a modifier to their move speed instead of a flat Agility boost (though some get that too). It becomes a x3 and x6 instead of x2 and x4. Given it is a mechanized suit, I could easily see the larger, pneumatic legs just giving that kind of bonus instead of more Agility.
The problem with the 'better reactions' is that if your suit goes faster than you can handle (which giving it extra Agility would do, in my mind), you're going to hurt yourself. Running faster isn't that hard when you have strengthened legs. That somehow translating to making you better at acrobatics while in an exo-suit, making you better at aiming your weapons, etc? Ludicrous.
There is no precedent, as there is no Agility upgrade to mil-spec armor in 4th Ed/Arsenal, either. Here's what they do have (on page 51):
Mobility Upgrade: By integrating additional servo-motors, improved joints, and similar enhancements, the armor’s mobility is increased to allow users that are not as strong and well trained to wear it without being slowed down too much. This enhancement reduces the encumbrance modifiers to Agility and Reaction due to the worn armor (see Armor and Encumbrance, p. 161, SR4A) by its rating, and also adds a dice pool modifier equal to its rating to all Running Tests.
Strength Upgrade: This upgrade adds additional servos, hydraulic pumps, and an improved internal structure to the armor that increases the character’s Strength attribute by its rating. The usual rules for the maximum augmented attribute (see Attribute Ratings, p. 68, SR4A) do not apply to this enhancement, since the increment is due to fully external mechanics and the sheer mass of the armor.
So, you can raise your Strength, and you can reduce encumbrance/add dice to Running tests. No addition to Agility.
When it comes down to the mechanics of the game, raising Strength is one thing, boosting Agility is another ball-game entirely. One of them has a number of nifty (but not broken), static uses. Combat load, melee damage, recoil compensation, for example. Agility, most importantly, directly affects your attack dice-pools. That is a huge thing from a mechanical viewpoint. To raise your Agility in any other way, you are either spending plenty of karma, power-points, Essence or taking Drain from casting. Just letting someone buy it with nuyen alone is unbalancing, as Wakshaani said earlier. Why would anyone who isn't a disguise artist or infiltrator ever bother with getting Toner or Replacement if these suits hit the production line? You strap in when it is about to go down, then do the mission. And how would they stack with the current augmented maximums? I definitely disagree with making the suits have their own Strength/Agility; at that point it isn't enhancing you, it's basically a drone/vehicle. If you want that, go get Pilot Walker.
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Six one way half a dozen the other, MijRai. The fact that the suit mobility upgrade reduces penalties to Agility and Reaction is a boost to my mind.
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Reducing penalties is far from increasing the Attribute, Herr. And 4th Edition had much stricter Encumbrance rules (not just the additional armor bits); nowadays a Strength 1, Body 1 wimp can put on a suit of Heavy Mil-Spec without issues (but putting on the helmet will penalize them, somehow). Back then they'd have been a turtle on its back with the reductions. It isn't nearly as important now.
I'd definitely remove the Restrictive quality/trait from active Power Armor (provided you do in fact have power, I'd make it worse if you don't have it active), and I advocate an increase to the movement multiplier, but I wouldn't be boosting Agility.
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I definitely agree that encumbrance played a much bigger part in SR4, hence why I think in 4th edition where this was actually relevant it was actually a Big Deal (TM).
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Movement speed can easily be altered in other ways; some Infected, for example, have a modifier to their move speed instead of a flat Agility boost (though some get that too). It becomes a x3 and x6 instead of x2 and x4. Given it is a mechanized suit, I could easily see the larger, pneumatic legs just giving that kind of bonus instead of more Agility.
The problem with the 'better reactions' is that if your suit goes faster than you can handle (which giving it extra Agility would do, in my mind), you're going to hurt yourself. Running faster isn't that hard when you have strengthened legs. That somehow translating to making you better at acrobatics while in an exo-suit, making you better at aiming your weapons, etc? Ludicrous.
The first part about movement speed was just as answer to running is an strenght skill. Thats why i said "speed increase" not "movement speed increase", it just doesn't move your legs faster but also your arms and pretty much most movement which would pretty easily translate to extra dice in combat,since you have an easier time aiming at the enemy.
Just like the mouse speed in a video game, higher speed allows you to aim for your enemy much faster, giving you an advantage.
The acrobatic example is actually pretty good, the main things a runner is gonna do with acrobatic is climbing/jumping/evading attack all things were a the speed your body(parts) move would be pretty helpfull(so more dice).
Even for sneak, being faster means you can stay out of sight more easily(and before anyone gets smart, not hiding in a group of people or being inconspicuous but being behind cover or out of sight to not be seen), then again with armor like that you're gonna get a malus in sneak test anyway which would cancel that out again.
The only things were the agility bonus for wearing armor/exoskelleton wouldn't fit are all thing that i wouldn't even allow if you're wearing one, which are escape artist, as no ones gonna let you wear that thing when they capture you, palming, as you can't really feel stuff through hardened armor, and locksmith, where the armor would just be in the way.
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Like I've already stated a couple times now, that is both thematically and mechanically unfeasible.
Thematically: It wouldn't move your legs appreciably faster; it'd make your legs somewhat longer and put more force behind your steps, lengthening your stride and making you faster without actually boosting your Agility. It doesn't matter how fast a chicken hustles its skinny legs compared to your average person; the stride and power behind the person means the chicken is going to be outrun even if it does have a higher Agility.
If it makes you move appreciably faster and you can't compensate, it isn't going to be controllable, and you're going to hurt yourself. It doesn't make it easier to aim if you're bundled up in an exo-skeleton that over-compensates and exaggerates all of your movements; if anything, it'd be somewhat harder, only partially due to the bulk. Unless you're not even bracing the weapon and just firing it via smartgun camera at that point, which has its own penalties (and you're still going too fast for your own good). A mouse, moved by your hand and wrist, is far different from moving your entire body. If you were making a drone/vehicle a rigger could control/jump into, it'd make more sense.
As an example of what I'm thinking of, look to the MJOLNIR armor from the Halo series. In the books, all of the initial testers put into that armor? They died. The armor moved too fast and too hard for the person inside, causing them to break their own limbs. Then, when they recoiled from the pain, the armor went the other direction, breaking their limbs again. They all ended up dying in a series of horribly augmented spasms crushing their bones and rupturing their internal organs. While Shadowrun-era power armor probably isn't as fast, those kinds of responses are pretty much what you can expect if the armor is 'faster' than the person inside.
On top of that, it doesn't matter how fast the suit is if the person inside can't react to the problem in time. This starts getting into how augmentations and the suit would interact, which is a whole, different can of worms.
Mechanically: Flat-out raising Agility with non-'ware/magic/drugs like this is too powerful; it unbalances the game a lot. Why would anyone ever pay Essence when they could put the suit on? Strength? Strength has its uses. Agility has much more applicable ones, especially if you start doing things like strapping on Agile Defender. It affects your chances of hitting, which is one of the most important parts of the fight. Reaction is even worse, since you keep mentioning evasion. A lot of people would just toss those Attribute augmentations off the roster so they could pick up all the other things, since two of them could be acquired without Essence expenditures.
Seriously? A bonus to stealth for wearing Power Armor? That doesn't even deign a response.
In regards to how Power Armor should enhance climbing and jumping, that should be due to the enhanced Strength making it easier to jump and pull yourself up, not because you're suddenly more nimble.
You do realize Escape Artist is also used for moving through tight spaces too, right? I'd allow (or better yet, require) the use of Escape Artist to attempt to maneuver in areas too small for your power-armored self.
Palming isn't just about feeling things in your hands, though the actual opportunities to use palming in Power Armor are somewhat lacking.
Why would your suddenly super-nimble suit-fingers be unable to use lockpicks? Besides the fact that it also applies to mag-locks and other tools that don't really require tiny fingers, there's no reason why Locksmith couldn't be done; the proper tools would make it feasible.
Increasing your movement multiplier (and allowing those hydraulic leg jacks to be installed for better jumping) is all I would do in relation to speed/movement for Power Armor. Attribute boosts for anything besides Strength are too much.
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For the First part: were talking about a game that features magic and a lot of completely "unrealistic" stuff, so hey maybe they found out a way to make it work.
And while Halo actually explained the whole thing, most of the time people don't even bother explaining because it's more awesome like that, and shadowrun likes the "Rule of Cool".
Mechanically: Flat-out raising Agility with non-'ware/magic/drugs like this is too powerful; it unbalances the game a lot. Why would anyone ever pay Essence when they could put the suit on? Strength? Strength has its uses. Agility has much more applicable ones, especially if you start doing things like strapping on Agile Defender. It affects your chances of hitting, which is one of the most important parts of the fight. Reaction is even worse, since you keep mentioning evasion. A lot of people would just toss those Attribute augmentations off the roster so they could pick up all the other things, since two of them could be acquired without Essence expenditures.
Yes, a really expensive, hard to get, prototype/military grade armor suit that will call down extreme measures on you if you get seen wearing it, is unbalanced. ::)
There was a whole discussion that no matter how good the suit makes you, it's completely unfeasible for a runner to have or keep.
Seriously? A bonus to stealth for wearing Power Armor? That doesn't even deign a response.
it also apparently doesn't deign actually reading the whole part, as i LITERALLY said the suit would get you stealth maluses, so maybe next time read the whole part before making comments?
In regards to how Power Armor should enhance climbing and jumping, that should be due to the enhanced Strength making it easier to jump and pull yourself up, not because you're suddenly more nimble.
Or because you can grab on faster. Pulling up is strenght, finding places to latch on and keep going is agility.
Then again, strenght plays a much bigger role here since it definces the distance.
You do realize Escape Artist is also used for moving through tight spaces too, right? I'd allow (or better yet, require) the use of Escape Artist to attempt to maneuver in areas too small for your power-armored self.
Valid point, never used escape artist, so i didn't think about that.
Palming isn't just about feeling things in your hands, though the actual opportunities to use palming in Power Armor are somewhat lacking.
Well it's described as sleigh of hand, and in the rulebook it's used for stuff like pickpocketing, hiding gear on your body, or finding gear on someone else. All things that are pretty much pointless if you're wearing an armored glove/exoskeleton.
(also, who doesn't just use a cyberwarescanner :) )
Why would your suddenly super-nimble suit-fingers be unable to use lockpicks? Besides the fact that it also applies to mag-locks and other tools that don't really require tiny fingers, there's no reason why Locksmith couldn't be done; the proper tools would make it feasible.
well if you have modified tools that you can use with a power armor, be my guest.
However maglocks do require "small" fingers, since you're working on the innards of an electronic device.
Increasing your movement multiplier (and allowing those hydraulic leg jacks to be installed for better jumping) is all I would do in relation to speed/movement for Power Armor. Attribute boosts for anything besides Strength are too much.
So getting that one or two dice more, which will mainly be used to shoot stuff is bad, but getting more damage in melee is fine?
And lets face it, if you're wearing power armor, you're not gonna use alot of stuff thats not combat, maybe climbing,which gets a better boost from strenght than agility anyways.
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So, because magic exist, let's have teleporters? I mean, those aren't realistic. How about some time travel too! And let's have aliens visit with manatech wonders of the future! Just because a facet of the setting is fantastic, doesn't mean you should throw the realism of the 'mundane' part of the setting out. It's still cyberpunk at the roots.
Nobody has actually put a price or availability on it, and even then people will find a way to get it. And what about civilian loader models with less armor and aren't forbidden? What about taking one of those and up-armoring it? There's plenty of opportunities out there. Saying it isn't feasible for 'runners to use/own isn't really an option yet, and I bet if rules were made, 'runners would find a way.
Oh, I saw your 'penalty' bit. Like I said, it didn't deign a response. To elaborate, because you're saying the armor would have bonuses to negate those. Absolutely ludicrous. How would it being faster really help with stealth? You're still big, hulking, covered in servos and pneumatics, weighing perhaps a hundred kilos more... I would not provide ANY bonuses to stealth, and apply more penalties if you're moving (so standing still with ruthenium polymer would be a decent tactic). You ain't going to be quieter in one of these suits.
So, your super-suit should have super-quick grabbing too? And some kind of algorithm to make finding spots to grab easier?
Hiding gear is a good bit about knowledge of palming, which is where it could come into play (hiding certain things on your person so people don't know you have them can always have some use).
Maglocks require the tools of the trade, which doesn't always mean you need small fingers. A sequencer or passkey doesn't need you to break into the casing.
Those multiple dice are very powerful, yes, especially since you're shooting 'bad stuff.' That is the most unbalanced aspect of it. You need a smartlink implanted to get a similar bonus just for shooting, and these would apply to ALL Agility rolls. Stealth, all weapons, gymnastics, those are some of the most used rolls in the game. They incorporate hitting (and thus hurting) the enemy, hiding from the enemy and evading the enemy. Those are some of the most important rolls for meat-body interactions (besides some of the Intuition-based ones). There's also still no consensus on whether or not it would stack with your own Agility augments. It isn't internal, so if I picked up Muscle Toner 4 and a suit that had a +4 Agility, does that mean I have a +8 to ALL Agility rolls?
Given that melee combat is generally sub-par due to:
Having to close the gap with the enemy, giving them more chances to put bullets in you.
It takes a Complex Action to do melee attacks (except with specific builds).
The damage is generally equal to or lower than using an assault rifle, and almost always lower AP.
Yeah, I don't particularly mind allowing more Strength from other sources (given a lot of people will just use the extra weight to carry more guns and ammo anyways...). Some melee builds will benefit from having Power Armor. A troll in a super-suit with a claymore will be monstrous. But it doesn't give them a better chance to hit (or the damage inherent from hitting with better degrees of success, or the benefit of more dice to spend on Called Shots) if there's no boost to Agility.
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So, because magic exist, let's have teleporters? I mean, those aren't realistic. How about some time travel too! And let's have aliens visit with manatech wonders of the future! Just because a facet of the setting is fantastic, doesn't mean you should throw the realism of the 'mundane' part of the setting out. It's still cyberpunk at the roots.
also means we don't have to pick one thing were it now HAS to be realistic.
(the next few line are not to be taken too seriously)
Not to mention there's actually a Spirit/Pixie power that lets you teleport between earth and your home dimension, so there's that
And corps are teleporting teams to other dimensions to find valuables(Market Panic).
And we also have the advanced nanotech/ware by aliens now that the monads are here(Market Panic). Which are kinda alien, being AIs and all.
And spirits are technically aliens, and they help people with magic, which is a science.
Got me with time travel though. :P
Nobody has actually put a price or availability on it, and even then people will find a way to get it. And what about civilian loader models with less armor and aren't forbidden? What about taking one of those and up-armoring it? There's plenty of opportunities out there. Saying it isn't feasible for 'runners to use/own isn't really an option yet, and I bet if rules were made, 'runners would find a way.
4ed also has tanks and nuclear submarines, don't think many people saw em in their normal games. And why would there even be civilian models, nobody talked about it so far and thats what drones are for.
(then again, according to Chrome Flesh, people are actually working on ExoWare that does just that, so what do i know)
Your whole point was that giving agility bonus to that armor would make ware essentialy unnecessary, and completely unbalance the game, which won't happen when it cost a mill and has an availibilty of 26+
Not to mention you completely ignore that you cant just always walk around in that armor. Have fun trailing someone in the sprawl with that thing on. Makes it pretty hard to be inconspicuous in a crowd.
Sure the Super Munchkin player will find a way to get it or maybe you're simply playing a military campaign, but the average shadowrun player will never get that thing unless his GM uses it in a campaign.
Heck most people don't even use the normal military armor.
Oh, I saw your 'penalty' bit. Like I said, it didn't deign a response. To elaborate, because you're saying the armor would have bonuses to negate those. Absolutely ludicrous. How would it being faster really help with stealth? You're still big, hulking, covered in servos and pneumatics, weighing perhaps a hundred kilos more... I would not provide ANY bonuses to stealth, and apply more penalties if you're moving (so standing still with ruthenium polymer would be a decent tactic). You ain't going to be quieter in one of these suits.
As i pointed out, it's about not being seen, i can get past guards because im faster. For example: a small time window were a certain area isn't watched.(The guard turned around for a time, or the other patrol isn't there yet) Then it helps stealth. Of course if you're running around on a metal grate right next to guards, you won't even need to bother with a check. But yes speed helps with stealth.
And since you talked about Halo, Master Chief doesn't seem to have any problem being sneaky in that armor of his(at least in the first game, didn't play the others).
So, your super-suit should have super-quick grabbing too? And some kind of algorithm to make finding spots to grab easier?
The suit helps with speed, i never said anything about super grabbing, if you move faster, you can grab new ledges/spots faster, which makes climbing faster.
Thats why the difficulty of the surface is a different modifier.
Maglocks require the tools of the trade, which doesn't always mean you need small fingers. A sequencer or passkey doesn't need you to break into the casing.
Sequenzer and Passcrads only apply their rating, which has nothing to do with agility. So any agility bonus doesn't matter.
Those multiple dice are very powerful, yes, especially since you're shooting 'bad stuff.' That is the most unbalanced aspect of it. You need a smartlink implanted to get a similar bonus just for shooting, and these would apply to ALL Agility rolls. Stealth, all weapons, gymnastics, those are some of the most used rolls in the game. They incorporate hitting (and thus hurting) the enemy, hiding from the enemy and evading the enemy. Those are some of the most important rolls for meat-body interactions (besides some of the Intuition-based ones). There's also still no consensus on whether or not it would stack with your own Agility augments. It isn't internal, so if I picked up Muscle Toner 4 and a suit that had a +4 Agility, does that mean I have a +8 to ALL Agility rolls?
But it doesn't give them a better chance to hit (or the damage inherent from hitting with better degrees of success, or the benefit of more dice to spend on Called Shots) if there's no boost to Agility.
The guy in the Armor will be the streetsam, if that guy doesn't manage to hit his precision limit when shooting even without the additinal +4 Agility of the Armor, he's had bad luck. Or needs to rework his build.
Even without the +4(and that if you even go so far as to use +4 agility, i was always thinking more along the line of +1/+2, and yes i didn't say it, my bad) any decent streetsam will always pull all this stuff of.
Edit: Also the Attribut Boost limit +4 still applies(unlike strenght we don't have a 4ed ruling on that one so lets just say it does)
On the other hand, even without the Agility/Strenght boost, the armor alone is so strong, that anything the GM has to throw against him is incredible lethal.(or direct combat spells, where the +4 Agi doesn't help either.)
Hardened armor basicially results in no damage or instakill.
At the end:
These armors are useless in a lot of situations because they draw ALOT of attention, and if they appear the agility bonus ultimately becomes negligable, because the deadliness of the enemies is maxed out and you either have really high dice pools even without the armor, or you die in the first hit that actually manages to penetrate the armor/turns you into chunky salsa.
The only players who would try to use these in normal play would be munchkins and well, "Never play with idiots" as they say.
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Maglocks require the tools of the trade, which doesn't always mean you need small fingers. A sequencer or passkey doesn't need you to break into the casing.
Minor point of contention; by RAW you only need the lockpicking skill to defeat maglocks. "Common Sense" would dictate that you'd also need a lockpicking toolkit, but this isn't explicitly spelled out anywhere.
You are correct that passkeys don't require you to open the case, but incorrect regarding sequencers:
A maglock sequencer (see p. 448) may also be used instead; make an Opposed Test between the sequencer and maglock ratings. If the sequencer wins, the maglock opens. (Note that the case must still be opened for a sequencer to be applied.)
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Well, to start...
The Aetherology Vanishing is somewhat stupid, in all honesty, and does not line up at all with the original Pixie Vanishing (back then it was a 'flaw' where their bodies disappear if they die, not giving them weird travel abilities). I chalk this one up to copy-pasting, sub-par editing and an overall lack of common sense applied to sapient CC. I mean, the half-meter tall pixies have no Lifestyle modifications or cost adjustments to gear for being smaller than even the smallest of dwarfs. Centaurs are huge, quadrupedal horse-folk. Sasquatch are as tall as giants and furry. Naga have no arms. None of these get a cost modifier for their Lifestyle? Seriously?
Metaplanar travel is different from teleporting.
Monads are AIs from Earth that immigrated off planet to avoid pogroms/torture by hijacking human bodies. On top of that, it ain't no manatech.
Manatech is a specific application/melding of science and magic (and magic is only a science to a few, specific traditions).
A civilian model of power armor would be great to take that one cheap worker and give him the ability to be the forklift, rather than deal with the training and all. And I still stand by the point that it would make 'ware unnecessary; why would people be paying Essence when they can streamline and update power-armor to cost less on their systems for the same benefits?
I also couldn't countenance giving power armor some kind of massive price-tag like that either. They can bolt an arm to your shoulder with the same kinds of technology, only smaller and without external power support. Making it more expensive is definitely plausible, but that high? Can't agree there.
I'm not ignoring the fact that people can't just use it constantly. But people who know and have time to prepare will have it on hand when it is needed.
Super-speed should not translate to being sneaky. And Master Chief was sneaky from a distance, when out of sight. As soon as a Covenant turned around, he'd get spotted and shot at.
The guy in this armor will be everyone if they get crazy boosts from it for combat/survivability.
Just because you think a build has to have an apparently extreme number of dice in order to be good or they should rebuild, maybe you should think twice before complaining about munchkins. I've made a number of fun, functional sam builds with 12-16 dice pools in their combat skills. That's only averaging about 4-5 hits each time. A +4 Agility is a rather large boost in that case.
We also haven't discussed how power armor would interact with the Augmented limits. That's another facet that would be up for debate, and I definitely disagree with it being capped at the usual +4.
The armor on Powered Armor doesn't have to be Hardened (or, unlike normal mil-spec armor you could receive a fraction of the armor as Hardened, thus making it less imbalancing), not to mention my previous mention of a cheaper, less effective method of using up-armored civilian models or something similar to get the job done. On top of that, Hardened Armor doesn't mean your Soak doesn't work if it gets through; given the amount of automatic hits you get plus the dice, there's a good chance of survival.
These armors might not be that useful in most situations (most armor isn't); when they end up in combat though, they are invaluable. Giving them even more extreme, game-unbalancing benefits just isn't a good idea.
P.S. In your opinion, only munchkins would want to use these. I disagree with you wholeheartedly there. I have a neat idea of a character using one of these in my head currently.
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Thats why i said it's not serious, but Metaplanar travel is still teleporting, you open up a huge portal and then go through(with you astral projection) to end up at a completely different place, not the most traditional kind of teleportation but still.
The thing about a "Civilian" type is
a) would they be cheaper then drones or cyberlimbs? Drones in particular are pretty cheap. So why bother building an exosuit for workers.
b) they wouldn't be on the same level as MilTech, so no +4Agility. Maybe +1, and thats not overpowered if you have to pay a decent price for it.
You simply asume that for some reasons these systems are very cheap.
Sure a civilian model would be cheaper, since it lacks a lot of the qualites, but a state-of-the-art high tech power armor? And those Military power armors were what we were talking about.
Going by the prizes from the 4ed MilSpech Tech and how pretty much any SciFi mentions how expensive power armors are, it could reasonable go into the million spectrum(not necessary by much but still).
As with bolting that arm to your shoulder,
a) the arm replaces you stats, that gets kinda pricey if you start to go high.
b) the armor isn't hardened
c) it's only or 1 limb not your entire body.
And yes Master Chief was sneaky close up, there were entire sections in the first game where you could avoid combat by sneaking up on patrolling enemies and meleeing them in the back, which was an instakill.
For the Dice pools i was going by the numbers i learned in pretty much anywhere(good combat pool with all modifiers should be around 20) also add the smartlink and aim bonuses to the 16 pool and your already in the 20s, which allows you to always hit, not to mention if you using salvos, 4-5 hits are all you need to hit an enemy. Also the guy who has lower dice pools, will have a harder time surviving the kind of enemies he will face if he wears that kind of armor even with the bonuses.
And unless it's an up-armored civilian model the armor will be hardened, doesn't make sense to not give something that powerful the best armor you have.
Since this discussion is slowly devolving into arguing about rules that don't exist, heres my final take:
If there are cheap civilian version that provide huge bonuses, then yes, it's overpowered. However if those Civilian Models cap out at +1 Agility, not so much, thats 1 dice, which is nice, but nothing more.
If we are talking about state-of-the-art MilTech thats really expensive and hard to get and will make you face the really big guns? Then no, its not.(And the discussion started with those).
And those MilTech armors would be the one Munchkins try to use, but if you wanna make a cool build with the civilian models, then that's cool.
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I still wouldn't consider metaplanar travel to be teleporting. Personal preference, I guess, but it's more of a shift; you're not ending up in a different region of the same place.
Mil-Spec Heavy Armor, with helmet, costs 30,000 in 4th Edition. On top of that, you can apply the Strength Upgrade, which adds Strength that does stack with the augmented maximum and the mobility upgrade (which reduced the more potent encumbrance rules of 4th) and added dice to running. It cost 1,500 per point of Strength added (Rating 3 Max), 2,500 for the Mobility (Rating 3 Max). The old Mil-Spec armor (which wasn't hardened, that was a 5th Ed modification) was effectively Power Armor that had no option to raise Agility. So while it isn't 'cheap' in the direct nuyen sense (the cost of a nice car) it is definitely not absurdly expensive. 42,000 to get a full suit of mil-spec armor with a +3 Strength and 3 extra dice to running/movement (I'd say that is enough to remove the Restrictive trait from the current armor, at least). Takes a grand total of 9 out of 20 Capacity (and 6 of that is from the Mobility Upgrade, which high-Body builds don't need as much of). 12R for the Strength, 18R for the Mobility (less if you don't need as much of it). So, my assessment that Power Armor wouldn't be too expensive is pretty justified, in my mind. And it never raised Agility.
While a civilian edition exo-suit would be a bit more expensive than drones (I'd say the 4th Edition version is probably too cheap, I'd raise it to +25,000 a point of Strength Upgrade to install it into current armors (only the full-body kinds, Mil-Spec, Security, Full Body and SWAT), cap at 4), it'd be controlled by a metahuman on site, which means you can give it to your skilled workers for when drones won't cut it. It also has the benefit of anyone being able to use it with a little familiarization, rather than vehicle training, rigger skills or taking the limbs off of old employees to pass to the next generation. One of these suits will last longer and probably age better than some increasingly used Muscle Replacements.
My whole point about the limb bolted to your shoulder is that the technology is at the point where they can directly interface composites and alloys to the human brain to get full function and 'super strength' in a human arm-sized package with no practical concerns for powering it. A suit of Power Armor doesn't need as much of the (expensive) miniaturization, and the technology obviously already exists. The only real reason they'd be more expensive is a lack of demand; if nobody is paying for it, than people won't have the equipment for constructing it ready at all times.
I personally think a dice-pool of 20 is extreme, at least when it comes to Shadowrun characters with less than 500 Karma. You're hitting Professional Rating 6 combat specialist at that point, which is the ludicrously good stage. It also means the GM would have to scale up every fight just for this one person, which threatens the entire party. This comes down to interpretation and taste, though.
I do want to restate that Hardened Armor for people armor is apparently a 5th Edition only thing, and something I would definitely tweak (not remove, but definitely rebalance) if I ever get onto the errata I'd have to make for playing this game at my table. This definitely changes the balance of giving Power Armor traits to these suits.
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Ok, elephant in the room time!
Why? Why a civilian model?
Why invest what would be BILLIONS into research and development, then millions more on a production line, when "there's a Troll for that".
Seriously. You want extreme strength for lifting and moving? "There's a Troll for that" - and he gets paid minimum wage. (Remember, Trolls are typically twice as strong as the STRONGEST human.)
Need something to work in a dangeroys place? A drone will work there. 24 hours a day. 7 days a week. And its cheap.
Cyberware, despite is use as a combat enhancements by Runners, has a more benign use. Replacement of damaged body parts. Lost an arm in an accident? Well now you can replace it with cyber (and now a cloned one.... but still), and not be disadvantaged. MS destroyed your nervous system? Replace it. Accident with a paint can? Cyber eyes to the rescue!
And even with the wide avenue of uses for cyber (beyond making Runner Murder Machines), and they are STILL as expensive as they are...... Custom Powered Armor would be several orders of magnitude more expensive...
Why? Not as many being sold, limited purchase options (not everyone can buy it), and production and research costs.
Look at it like this:
Compact car: cheap cause they are mass produced.
Bogetti Vaiyan: ultra expensive as they are made by hand, and less then 15 a year are built.
Same thing here. Limited use, limited market means extreme cost....
And as said earlier, "there's a Troll for that" for the construction/civil side of things. (And I can't see a company putting out millions to buy a suit, when they can pay a Troll 25k/year and be done with it)
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First off, a Troll with 7 Strength is not 'twice as strong' as a Human with 6. It ties if by 'strongest' you mean they have Exceptional Attribute too, which puts them at 7. Twice as strong as your average human, sure. A peak troll only has 4 Strength more than a peak human.
Billions? As if.
The research and development already exists, for one. Augmetics/Cyberware. Drones. Etc. On top of that, a civilian model would most definitely be developed from a military version (which already exists), which would definitely cut down on the cost.
Anti-trog bias is another reason. Why hire trolls when you can have a human with this tool do it instead? Trolls are also less common than humans, though orks are a rather common middle-ground.
To make your troll even stronger; a larger model makes even a troll's prodigious physique even better for the job.
Drones aren't always perfect though; perhaps there's Noise concerns, or something else. Having a person on-site can make the difference.
Even with 'ware being able to replace bits, doesn't mean people want to. Though it is understated, Chrome Flesh mentions a number of people who get 'ware freak out and start trying to rip it out in a panic at some point. Nor do you need to spend the money on 'ware for everybody who is going to work a specific job if you buy one suit for the role. Even if someone is sick, injured, dead or gone, someone else can get in there and get the job done.
Yes, I mentioned a good fraction of the cost would come out of a lack of demand, though the more I think on it, the more I think civilian models would probably be somewhat popular/common.
Finally, these suits aren't going to cost millions. The mil-spec armored version with custom fit in 4th Edition costs 16,500 for the minimum, using light mil-spec armor as the base. Even with price adjustment for balance, it isn't going to be hundreds of thousands for a civilian model that has a number of options cut out of it (and less armor). I'd say it'd cost close to what a warehouse forklift does, with more flexibility for other jobs. It'd be quite useful on construction sites too.
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Civilian exo-skeletons have already been nixed by the 4th Edition writers because of cost-efficiency.
Manhattan’s unionized dockworkers used the Iron Will hydraulic exoskeleton when they were loading and unloading cargo in the early ‘30s and ‘40s. It’s kind of like a manservant drone, but you wear it. As the prices of augmentations and drones dropped, things like the Iron Will became less popular, and now there’s maybe two hundred still in use.
There is no need for a civilian model; the Iron Will already sets this precedent. Thus, any powered armor that exceeds the existing mil-spec armor in terms of features would be SOTA pieces of gear so far advanced that the "orders of magnitude" price tag and availability already mentioned by several people is entirely appropriate as far as I'm concerned. Mil-spec armor already makes you into a walking tank with all of the very obvious downsides this brings (i.e. expect that notoriety to rise, and the military to be called in if you wear it anywhere outside of an active warzone), so anything that is more advanced than that would be equally restricted to military use in addition to even more extreme availability and price differences.
In short, a suit that exceeds the existing mil-spec armor in functionality would not (yet) be mass-produced, and as such would have absolutely no impact on how augmentations and drones are used.
At least that's how I see it. And since this argument seems to be going in circles between two individuals at this point, I'll just bow out.
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Eh, I guess that settles it for canon. I definitely disagree with it, but oh well. Not sure where they're getting the cost-efficiency bit, though. The strength augmentations for suits like that are cheap (apparently), as are the suits themselves (would it really be 10,000 nuyen for a frame-work version of light mil-spec armor?).
At this point I'd consider the mil-spec armor of 4th Edition to be Power Armor. Approximately the same price as the current model, but more options for improvement (and no Hardened Armor). There's a disconnect between the two editions here, which is a part of the problem.
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I've actually got a player trying to do this now for his missions character. The catch is, he's a gnome with a Body and Str of 2 each and he weighs about 60 pounds. He wants to ride around on his Anthro drones a la Mad Max, Master-Blaster style.
I'm struggling with finding a way to say yes here, but my initial reaction is to require him to buy "Extra Seating" (2 MP) so that he can attach himself properly and then if he wants the full armor shell another 2MP for a rigger cocoon. If course it will all be child-sized as I'd never allow this with any full sized character. But hey, if they guy wants to play a character with a physical condition monitor of 7 :o (thanks to neotany) and an overflow of 2 :o :o , you got to give him something for creativity.
If it's for Missions, unfortunately the last rules update restricted the mods allowed on drones pretty hard. I have a similar issue converting my 4th ed pixie-driving-a-human-suit character for Prime Missions, ended up just getting a smuggling compartment for the character to ride around in.
Valkyrie Module is another possibility, but that requires Large size drones and the anthro drones from Rigger 5 don't actually have a size rating. Given that the anthro drones from other books tend to classify "adult metahuman size" drones as Large, arguably the Valkryie will work.
-k
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SK Jaeger Combat Powered Armor
HANDL SPEED ACCEL BODY ARM PILOT SENSOR
4 4G 1 8 18 5 5
Notes: Anthroform Drone, Hardened Armor, Rigger Cocoon (MP 2), Smartsoft (Rating 3), Integrated H&K XM 30 (Left Arm, MP 4), Extended Ammo Bay (100rds, MP 2), Satellite Link
Tired of always dealing with electronic noise during ops? Worried about the opposition hacking your main battle drone? Want your Rigger to survive in hostile environments? Need them to stay with their drones no matter the situation? Then buy the new SK Jaeger Mobile Combat Suit! It is your best option in war zones. This fully rigged anthroform drone also acts as full on power armor giving your combat riggers an all-terrain vehicle to keep with their drone swarms. The Jaeger is a .25 meters taller than your average Troll meaning that the mobile suit can move through most urban terrain unimpeded and even access the insides of buildings.
[Just an idea I came up with]
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Nice, I like it! Would name it Jäger, though, or the anglizied Jaeger. Other than that, sign me up!
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Nice, I like it! Would name it Jäger, though, or the anglizied Jaeger. Other than that, sign me up!
Made the changes you suggested. I can never figure out how to do the umlaut.
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Esprit Dragon-Slayer Combat Powered Armor
HANDL SPEED ACCEL BODY ARM PILOT SENSOR
2 1G 1 10 20 4 5
Notes: Anthroform Drone, Hardened Armor, Rigger Cocoon (MP 2), Integrated ONOTARI ARMS BALLISTA MML (Left Shoulder, MP 6), Extended Ammo Bay (4 Missles, MP 1), RUHRMETALL SF-20 (Carried, Limited Ammo), Satellite Link, Secondary Propulsion: Tracked (Handl 2/4, Speed 3, Accel 1, MP 1)
Truly a beast on the battlefield. The Esprit Dragon-Slayer is a 14 foot tall monster anthroform mobile armored suit designed to take on the toughest threats both airborne as well as ground. It carries a total of 8 missles or rockets in the main weapon storage and secondary ammo bay. This is one suit designed for rough or jungle terrain where normal armored vehicles cannot go. Because of its slow walking speed the suit is equipped with a secondary track propulsion system (most of the system is outside of the suit proper and vulnerable to fire so that is why it only has an MP of 1). The Dragon-Slayer is also equipped with a carried heavy machine gun standard (talk to your local rep about the optional Grenade Launcher or Assault Cannon).
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for what it is worth, in Missions drones can not carry metahumans, you can not add seating and you can not add a rigger cocoon
the reason for this is that once you add seating the drone then becomes a vehicle .. we allow Valkyrie units only because at that point the "passenger" should be not much more than cargo and even then only on drones that are large enough to effectively carry a metahuman ... if you want a walking vehicle take a standard vehicle and add the alternate propulsion system
with that being said ... anything goes in a home game as long as your GM approves it :D and if that includes mecha's and power armor then so be it and what I see here is pretty cool from that point of view
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I was very surprised that drones were able to take the Valkyrie mod; based on the description, it seems like it would take way more space than a rigger cocoon what with the full bed and medical equipment compared to an enclosed space for a metahuman to fit inside. At worst, a rigger cocoon is mostly going to be used by jumped in riggers anyway, so it's not like the character needs to move around at all.
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Yeah, except for being armored and having a place to plug in, it's basically just a body sized cargo space, not really seating in the traditional sense.
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I was very surprised that drones were able to take the Valkyrie mod; based on the description, it seems like it would take way more space than a rigger cocoon what with the full bed and medical equipment compared to an enclosed space for a metahuman to fit inside. At worst, a rigger cocoon is mostly going to be used by jumped in riggers anyway, so it's not like the character needs to move around at all.
Yeah, except for being armored and having a place to plug in, it's basically just a body sized cargo space, not really seating in the traditional sense.
Well this is purely from a Missions point of view and with nothing "Official" to back it up ... it has nothing to do with size (though size is why the valkyrie is limited to large and up drones) and everything to do with "capabilities". We want to avoid having players running around in what would be effectively mobile hard armor.
While a cocoon may mostly be used by jumped in riggers, it still effectively a pilot seat since they would be controlling the drone they are "riding" directly one way or another which thus then turns the drone into a vehicle. Now if we end up seeing players trying to do an end around by using the valkryie unit to "care for" their meat body while jumped in then we will most likely have to put even more restrictions on it.
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I'd go ahead and do that right away, Banshee :D
Granted, a rigger cocoon is better because it's armored, but the valkyrie module can definitely be used as a poor mans rigger cocoon. If the limitation on rigger cocoons is based on your rationale above, the logical step is to also disallow valkyrie modules because they can definitively be used to turn a drone into a vehicle.
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I don't see what's so bad about riding a drone - their armor and body are usually really bad, not to mention the reduced damage track.
But yeah, the Valkyrie Module is an incredible bargain - a rating 6 autodoc/medkit for so little nuyen and build points - practically every runner car should have one installed.
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I'd go ahead and do that right away, Banshee :D
Granted, a rigger cocoon is better because it's armored, but the valkyrie module can definitely be used as a poor mans rigger cocoon. If the limitation on rigger cocoons is based on your rationale above, the logical step is to also disallow valkyrie modules because they can definitively be used to turn a drone into a vehicle.
well we wanted to leave the valkryie as an option for those runners who may need an extraction when the drek hits the fan and your buddy is leaking guts all over the place ... you can have robbie the robot scoop them up and start medical right away while leaving you and what is still standing of your team to focus on keeping the HRT off your back
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You could solve that in a much easier way by simply allowing the Areoquip Dustoff drone from Bullets & Bandages; it's very specifically made to do hot extractions of wounded patients, after all.
Besides, it's not like an antrhoform couldn't scoop up a team member with it's arms, or any other drone with added mechanical arms. I just personally think it's really ambigious to allow the valkyire module, and arguably larger mod, and not the rigger cocoon. I totally understand your reasoning for not allowing the rigger cocoon, but I don't personally agree with that exact same reasoning when it comes to allowing a valkyire.
As you yourself said, people can just as easily use the valkyrie module instead of the rigger cocoon.
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You don't really need to restrict drone riders just make some rules which describe why sane people don't *choose* to do it.
Imagine riding inside what's effectively a big donorcycle motorcycle that's getting shot at with guns. First, it's a drone, so you're probably going to take a hit every time the drone gets tagged (drone get defense, but only resistance for you!). Second, people are still susceptible to stun damage, so getting your drone armor rocked (but not penetrated) might not phase the drone, but being inside that coconut won't be a fun experience. Just imagine electrical damage on the drone! I'll have seconds of Baked Rigger please! Then you'll take damage when the drone crashes which should happen pretty easy for the poor stats that were mentioned and let's hope you were flying either in the air, or down the highway at the time.
The point is that drones are not vehicle and cannot offer the same protection. That's not a crazy assumption to build into the rules. While you might be able to stuff a body inside one, it's perhaps not the wisest thing to do for anything combat related. And/or you could always just make it so expensive that it's a poor choice mechanically.
Maybe an armored Rigger Cocoon is too heavy for a drone (and I think it should have cost more slots anyway), or counts as drone armor for purposes of stat reduction but saying you can't do certain seemingly feasible things like rigging from a valkyrie module or backpedaling and not allowing them on drones anymore seems like a bad idea.
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Those are excellent points, FasterN8. I think this is worth reconsidering Banshee, because the rules don't cover what happens when a drone with a valkyrie module carrying a person is hit by a ranged attack or spell, for example. Do you use vehicle rules? How are they implemented?
This is a can of worms just waiting to be opened if you ask me, and I really don't envy the Missions GMs who are going to have to make calls for these kinds of situations.
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These are not something that should be allowed in missions or at conventions. I was just playing around and having fun. Just to be clear I would allow them in my home game but not at an official event. Luckily none of my players have thought up something like this yet. I cannot wait to pop it on them as a surprise. As for getting shot up. That is why they have hardened armor. The bullets just bounce unless the PC is lucky and gets a golden BB or they run around with a panther.
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The point is that drones are not vehicle and cannot offer the same protection.
4e, by recollection at least, this wasn't so. All drones were vehicles, but not all vehicles were drones. Did 5e change that?
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The point is that drones are not vehicle and cannot offer the same protection.
4e, by recollection at least, this wasn't so. All drones were vehicles, but not all vehicles were drones. Did 5e change that?
I think this needs clarification. As all vehicles are equipped with a pilot program would that not make them drones in a sense or do they need a rigger adaptation to truely make them rpvs?
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From a Missions point of view it is really quite simple.
Vehicles carry passengers, drones do not ... and other than modifications they all use the same rules
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Except drones in combat, then they act like metahumans. Also, I agree with Herr Brachhaus, this is just waiting to get abused. Like the dust off becoming a cheep plane kind of abuse.
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Good call, Rift_0f_Bladz; aerial drone plus Valkyrie module equals cheap transportation and medical support all in one.
Wouldn't the Dustoff be unavailable, though, given that's from Bullets & Bandages which isn't Missions legal?
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At one point it wasn't I think, but one of our forum members described the cheep plane idea. The Dustoff got nuked in in Rigger 5 because of said cheap plane idea.