Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Chalkarts on <05-11-16/0130:12>

Title: Super face...
Post by: Chalkarts on <05-11-16/0130:12>
Ok,

I really enjoy role play, I get into character and try to get the DM Role playing whenever possible.  For Me RPGs are competitive improv.
I want to make a character that tries to talk his way out of everything by any means necessary.  He can fight, but not well, hes a little sickly.
I'm justifying the madness of this by giving the character an addiction, drugs make ya do weird things.

I want to make a character that uses every route possible to avoid combat.  Lots of charisma with some adept powers, Mind manipulation & Detection spells, bioware, Skill specializations, random hodge podge complete chaotic min max.

I only have a core book to go by. 
I'm trying to work out my priorities and wanted some opinions.
I know I want elf, and Mystic Adept, but cant figure out the order.

I'm making this for a game i just joined and am not as spot on with 5e as I'd like to be.
Might I humbly request the help of the gathered Runners and Johnsons?

Title: Re: Super face...
Post by: fseperent on <05-11-16/0218:33>
With priority, you're asking for a lot.
But, try this:
A: Attributes
B: Magic
C: Skills
D: Race
E: Resources
Forget about bioware out of chargen with what you have stated you want.
All the bioware a face would want is too expensive.
Title: Re: Super face...
Post by: Chalkarts on <05-11-16/0852:41>
But, try this:
A: Attributes
B: Magic
C: Skills
D: Race
E: Resources

I was actually thinking of, for role play purposes(I'm one of those), Making him a little physically weak so I'd make Skills A and attributes C,but I like where you are on the rest.

I was also considering dropping the Magic and going full adept.
How many levels in an Adept power can an Adept have, is there a limit?
Title: Re: Super face...
Post by: fseperent on <05-11-16/1053:41>
Limit for adept power levels is your MAG.
Title: Re: Super face...
Post by: adzling on <05-11-16/1111:51>
There are often other specified limits to specific powers.

But generally speaking Adepts make the best faces.

Don't miss Commanding Voice and Authorative tone (read the last errata, Catalyst really borked these powers changing them both multiple times).

Personally I like the "doppleganger" face who takes all the body/ face / skin/ hair changing powers so he can BE anyone he wants with a few minutes prep.

You can only do that with an Adept.
Title: Re: Super face...
Post by: Chalkarts on <05-11-16/1326:51>
There are often other specified limits to specific powers.

But generally speaking Adepts make the best faces.

Don't miss Commanding Voice and Authorative tone (read the last errata, Catalyst really borked these powers changing them both multiple times).

Personally I like the "doppleganger" face who takes all the body/ face / skin/ hair changing powers so he can BE anyone he wants with a few minutes prep.

You can only do that with an Adept.

What book are those powers in?  I would totally make one of those, I didn't know those were a thing.
Title: Re: Super face...
Post by: Chalkarts on <05-11-16/1332:43>
When you see a group of good guys and bad guys clash in a movie there is often that one guy that tries in vain to stop it.  He jumps in the middle and yells "Wait!" and both sides stop and hear him out and then kill each other anyway?

I wanna play the "Wait!" guy.  When our running team is caught on corporate property and is facing off with a group of 5 corporate security guards, I wanna jump in the middle and talk the security guards in to letting us go, whether by charm or intimidation, at the very least drawing them into conversation while my team prepares to kill them all.

Title: Re: Super face...
Post by: adzling on <05-11-16/1558:39>
They are spread across many books :-(

S.G., Stolen Souls, Bloody Business etc.

My top adept powers for face work are:

Commanding Voice
Auth. Tone
Cool Resolve
Body Sculpt
Facial Sculpt
Melanin Control
Keratin Control
Linguistics
Voice Control

Those powers will make you the ultimate face able to bend others to your will and in the event they don't bend you can lock them in a closet and BECOME them.

There are often other specified limits to specific powers.

But generally speaking Adepts make the best faces.

Don't miss Commanding Voice and Authorative tone (read the last errata, Catalyst really borked these powers changing them both multiple times).

Personally I like the "doppleganger" face who takes all the body/ face / skin/ hair changing powers so he can BE anyone he wants with a few minutes prep.

You can only do that with an Adept.

What book are those powers in?  I would totally make one of those, I didn't know those were a thing.
Title: Re: Super face...
Post by: Chalkarts on <05-11-16/1728:31>
That's a great list
Title: Re: Super face...
Post by: adzling on <05-11-16/2326:17>
here's an adept build similar to my starting point
mostly 16-18 dice pools and a few around 9-12.

Elf Doppleganger
METATYPE: ELF
B 2, A 6/8, R 5/6, S 3, W 3, L 3, I 5, C 8, ESS 5, EDG 1, M 4
Condition Monitor (P/S): 9 / 10
Armor: 14
Limits: Physical 5, Mental 6, Social 12
Physical Initiative: 10/11+2D6
Active Skills: Con (Fast Talking +2) 2, Disguise 1, Etiquette 1, Exotic Melee Weapon: Monofilament Whip 2 (3), Gymnastics 1, Impersonation 2, Leadership (Command +2) 2, Negotiation (Bargaining +2) 2, Perception (Visual +2) 1, Pistols (Semi-Automatics +2) 3 (4), Sneaking (Urban +2) 3
Knowledge Skills: small unit tactics (Urban +2) 6, Street knowledge: Seattle 1
Languages: English N, Japanese 4, Sperethiel 4
Metatype Abilities: Enhanced Senses: Low-Light Vision
Qualities: Adept, Agile Defender, Biocompatibility (Bioware), Jack of All Trades, Master of None, Mentor Spirit: Raven, Prototype Transhuman: Wanted, SINner (Corporate SIN): Renraku, Wanted
Adept Powers: Authoritative Tone (1), Body Sculpt (4 hours) (10dicepool), Commanding Voice (10dicepool vs.  Willpower + Intuition), Facial Sculpt (4 hours) (1) (6dicepool), Keratin Control, Linguistics (8dicepool (Varies)), Melanin Control (5h), Traceless Walk, Voice Control (1) (14dicepool[6] vs. Voice rec. x 2 or PER + INT)
Augmentations:
   Fingertip Compartment
   Mnemonic Enhancer (Prototype) (Alphaware) (1) w/ Prototype Transhuman
   Muscle Toner (Prototype) (Alphaware) (2) w/ Prototype Transhuman
   Reflex Recorder (Prototype) (Alphaware): Exotic Melee Weapon w/ Prototype Transhuman
   Reflex Recorder (Prototype) (Alphaware): Pistols w/ Prototype Transhuman
   Smartlink (Used)
   Synaptic Booster (1)
   Tailored Pheromones (Prototype) (3) w/ Prototype Transhuman
   Voice Modulator (2)
Gear:
   Armor Jacket
   Ballistic Mask (Customized) w/ Gas Mask
   Concealable Holster
   Contacts (3) w/ Flare Compensation, Image Link, Vision Enhancement (1)
   Cram
   ding w/ (1 month) Street Lifestyle
   Ear buds (3) w/ Audio Enhancement (2), Select Sound Filter (1)
   Identity: Specify Name
   Matrix Systems GridGopher
   Micro-Tranceiver
   Novacoke
   Plastic Restraints x10
   Tool Kit, Disguise
Weapons:
   Savalette Guardian [Heavy Pistol, Acc 8, DV 8P, AP -5, SA/BF, RC 4, 12 (c)] w/ (50x) APDS, Flashlight, Low-Light, Gas-Vent System (3), Personalized Grip, Smartgun System, Internal
   Monofilament Whip Weapon Focus (1) [Exotic Melee Weapon, Reach 2, Acc 8, DV 12P, AP -8] w/ Personalized Grip, Weapon Focus (1)
Starting ¥: 755 + (1D6 × 20)¥
Title: Re: Super face...
Post by: Coyote on <05-12-16/0848:37>
"Commanding Voice (10dicepool vs.  Willpower + Intuition)"

Wouldn't Commanding Voice get the bonus from the Command specialization of Leadership, so it would be 12 dice?

Also, an interesting idea would be to see if you can fit in Narco, and then use pharmaceutical-grade Novacoke. With only 1 threshold, the addiction tests are easy, the drug is very cheap and long-lasting, and getting +2 to Charisma is a big deal for most of the skills/powers.

Title: Re: Super face...
Post by: adzling on <05-12-16/0940:26>
the Commanding Voice dice pool is calculate by Hero Lab which isn't always right.

We just used leadership pool for Commanding Voice (so his would be 16 dice) but we also use the full social modifers table which can apply some hefty modifiers for use, especially in combat.
Title: Re: Super face...
Post by: Sterling on <05-12-16/1356:59>
"Commanding Voice (10dicepool vs.  Willpower + Intuition)"

Wouldn't Commanding Voice get the bonus from the Command specialization of Leadership, so it would be 12 dice?


Remember that Leadership is only effective when the subject accepts and acknowledges you, even temporarily, as their superior.  The Command specialisation is used when rolling against targets to see if they will accept you, and you cannot use it against a target that you have already failed against. (P. 142 Core SR5 2nd printing)
Title: Re: Super face...
Post by: Chalkarts on <05-12-16/1404:24>
What book is Body control and Keratin control in?
I found an online list of adept powers and those two weren't on it.
Id love to see the book text on those powers.
Title: Re: Super face...
Post by: adzling on <05-12-16/1523:38>
True, except for commanding voice, which is what we're talking about here.

"Commanding Voice (10dicepool vs.  Willpower + Intuition)"

Wouldn't Commanding Voice get the bonus from the Command specialization of Leadership, so it would be 12 dice?


Remember that Leadership is only effective when the subject accepts and acknowledges you, even temporarily, as their superior.  The Command specialisation is used when rolling against targets to see if they will accept you, and you cannot use it against a target that you have already failed against. (P. 142 Core SR5 2nd printing)
Title: Re: Super face...
Post by: Sterling on <05-12-16/1536:47>
True, except for commanding voice, which is what we're talking about here.

"Commanding Voice (10dicepool vs.  Willpower + Intuition)"

Wouldn't Commanding Voice get the bonus from the Command specialization of Leadership, so it would be 12 dice?


Remember that Leadership is only effective when the subject accepts and acknowledges you, even temporarily, as their superior.  The Command specialisation is used when rolling against targets to see if they will accept you, and you cannot use it against a target that you have already failed against. (P. 142 Core SR5 2nd printing)

In your House Rules, sure.  Unless you can also cite a source as I did?
Title: Re: Super face...
Post by: adzling on <05-12-16/1630:23>
Just read the adept power commanding voice, it's all there.
Title: Re: Super face...
Post by: Coyote on <05-12-16/1839:31>
True, except for commanding voice, which is what we're talking about here.

"Commanding Voice (10dicepool vs.  Willpower + Intuition)"

Wouldn't Commanding Voice get the bonus from the Command specialization of Leadership, so it would be 12 dice?


Remember that Leadership is only effective when the subject accepts and acknowledges you, even temporarily, as their superior.  The Command specialisation is used when rolling against targets to see if they will accept you, and you cannot use it against a target that you have already failed against. (P. 142 Core SR5 2nd printing)

In your House Rules, sure.  Unless you can also cite a source as I did?

You cited a source that seems irrelevant. Your source is for a normal use of the Leadership power, while the Adept Power of Commanding Voice uses a Leadership test, but is pretty clear that it can be used against random people and perhaps even enemies, where Leadership certainly could not be used. So, saying that Leadership does not allow you to command enemies is irrelevant, when the discussion is about using Commanding Voice, which does allow you to command enemies.
Title: Re: Super face...
Post by: Tarislar on <05-13-16/0105:09>
Ok,

I really enjoy role play, I get into character and try to get the DM Role playing whenever possible.  For Me RPGs are competitive improv.
I want to make a character that tries to talk his way out of everything by any means necessary.  He can fight, but not well, hes a little sickly.
I'm justifying the madness of this by giving the character an addiction, drugs make ya do weird things.

I want to make a character that uses every route possible to avoid combat.  Lots of charisma with some adept powers, Mind manipulation & Detection spells, bioware, Skill specializations, random hodge podge complete chaotic min max.

I only have a core book to go by. 
I'm trying to work out my priorities and wanted some opinions.
I know I want elf, and Mystic Adept, but cant figure out the order.

I'm making this for a game i just joined and am not as spot on with 5e as I'd like to be.
Might I humbly request the help of the gathered Runners and Johnsons?



Its not exactly everything you asked for, but I feel everyone needs the ability to handle combat for that time that you can do nothing to avoid it.


A: Attributes
B: Elf
C: Skills
D: Adept
E: Resources

B3, A5, R5, S1, W5, L3, I5, C8
Es6, Eg3, M6, Itv10+1d


Influence Group-2
Con-6  (FastTalk+2)
Perception-6  (Hearing+2)
Pistols-6  (Semi-Auto+2)
Sneaking-6  (Urban+2)


6 Power Points
2.5 - Improved Reflexes-2 
1.0 - Authoritative Tone-2   (St.Grim-Errata?)
0.5 - Combat Sense-1 
0.5 - Magic Sense   (St.Grim)
0.5 - Motion Sense   (St.Grim)
0.5 - Melanin Control   (St.Grim)
0.25 - Agility Boost-1
0.25 - Facial Sculpt-1   (St.Grim)
0.0 - Traceless Walk
0.0 - Voice Control-1


Spending 50 Karma  (25 Negatives)
10-Cash $20K
10-Strength-2
8-Friends in High Places
7-Catlike
5-Mentor Spirit (Deception)
5-Trust Fund (Medium)
4-Contacts  (28 Total)
1-Remainder
10-Creature of Comfort (Medium)
10-Dayjob
5-SINner
Title: Re: Super face...
Post by: Sterling on <05-13-16/0459:14>
True, except for commanding voice, which is what we're talking about here.

"Commanding Voice (10dicepool vs.  Willpower + Intuition)"

Wouldn't Commanding Voice get the bonus from the Command specialization of Leadership, so it would be 12 dice?


Remember that Leadership is only effective when the subject accepts and acknowledges you, even temporarily, as their superior.  The Command specialisation is used when rolling against targets to see if they will accept you, and you cannot use it against a target that you have already failed against. (P. 142 Core SR5 2nd printing)

In your House Rules, sure.  Unless you can also cite a source as I did?

You cited a source that seems irrelevant. Your source is for a normal use of the Leadership power, while the Adept Power of Commanding Voice uses a Leadership test, but is pretty clear that it can be used against random people and perhaps even enemies, where Leadership certainly could not be used. So, saying that Leadership does not allow you to command enemies is irrelevant, when the discussion is about using Commanding Voice, which does allow you to command enemies.

My point is simply that the Command use for Leadership is clearly defined on p. 142 as being used to persuade enemies that you're their leader, and so the Command Specialisation would seem to apply to that use of Leadership only, not when using Commanding Voice.

Yes, I could have spelled that out clearer.  My fault.

In short, the calculation by adzling was correct, and I believe RAW Coyote was mistaken in correcting it.
Title: Re: Super face...
Post by: adzling on <05-13-16/1012:39>
ah ok that comment makes a bit more sense Sterling ;-)

How you calculate your dice pool for the adept power Commanding Voice is a good question.

Hero Lab treats it as a pure Leadership + Charisma test, no specializations, no affect from other adept social power such as Auth. Tone or Cool Resolve and no affect from Tailored Pheromones.

Of course Hero Lab gets some things wrong so you can't rely upon Hero Lab as a pure rules reference.

Regardless the above approach mostly works as long as you don't use the Social Modifiers table.
As soon as you start using those modifiers with the reduced/ minimal dice pool Commanding Voice becomes mostly useless.

Our table just lets you use your entire Leadership dice pool with relevant Social Modifiers.

This works well because the Social Modifiers table confers hefty penalties for attempting stuff that is harmful to the target.

The rules for Commanding Voice don't spell it out either way, so YMMV.

Regarding Command speciality in particular it seems the most appropriate specialization for Commanding Voice as you are primarily commanding enemies with it.

anyhoo it's your game you get to choose how you implement it at your table!
Title: Re: Super face...
Post by: Coyote on <05-13-16/1205:21>
In general, I think that we cannot be limited by what the main rulebook says about how to use skills and their specializations, because there are some skills/specializations that are not described (Con (Seduction), off the top of my head). Does this mean that the Seduction specialization of Con has no in-game purpose? No, it means that any uses of specializations in the rulebook are given there as examples of how to use that skill/specialization, but that you are allowed to rule that other skill tests for that skill may still utilize the specialization even if the exact action that requires the skill test is not given as an example of that specialization in the core rule book.

So, Commanding Voice uses a Leadership skill check. It uses it in a different manner than is given in the rulebook, but clearly that cannot be the only way to use Leadership or else some skills that are not thoroughly explained would be pretty much useless. Thus, there is no reason to think that it's not treated as a normal skill check for Leadership, including all modifiers (both character-based and situation-based), and therefore it could be subject to a specialization. Whether the GM prefers to create a new specialization for Adept Powers, or to use the Command specialization, is kind of a house decision. But whether the check is subject to modifications and specializations seems to me to be pretty clear: it is.