Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Quatar on <05-11-16/1636:50>
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Hi
I'm building a shaman/face, with a focus on Illusion and Manipulation spells, which make up about 7 or 8 of my 10 starter spells.
Now I at least want a little direct combat potential, and want to make sure I'm not buying combat spells that don't work for what I need them too. So I tried to figure out the most common enemies I'll be facing.
- Group of Mooks: Ok, this seems fairly easy. An indirect area spell seems the way to go for those. Fireball, or maybe Napalm are currently my frontrunners on that slot. They can't evade it (but can "Run for their Lifes") and the additional armor on the resist is easily balanced out by the added Force to the DV
- Meatshileds/Street Sams: At first I thought "Ah that's easy. Low Will, so lets use Manabolt or something", but then I realised "That's crap too, it will likely not kill a tank", so I think the best way to deal with this one is not a combat spell but maybe Euphoria or something similar
- Other mages: High Will, but possibly low body and armor. Use a direct physical spell like Powerbolt, or another indirect spell? Body is low, so Powerbolt will do most of it's damage but again unlikely to take the enemy out. For Indirect spell, I could even just use my Area spell from above, if I don't mind the higher drain, and just get away with one combat spell. Or I pick up the single target version of it. Opinions to that please, since I really don't know.
- Spirits: Ok, now it's getting nasty. If they're manifested, I can hit them with every spell I have. Their Body and Will are comparable, somewhere around their Force, give or take one or two, so they'll resist at least 2-3 hits, and unlike I horribly overcast it's unlikely I get a lot of hits on a Direct spell, so that's a bad choice. Their Rea+Int is also fairly decent, so a single target indirect spell is also pretty bad. At least it circumvents the Hardened Armor, since it's magic, so an Area spell would still hit them. I think just summoning a spirit of my own to deal with it, is the best choice, so maybe I'll just not bother with a spell for that enemy either.
- Need target alive: not really a type of enemies, but for that situation... stunball/bolt? I don't know, sounds too situational, and just locking them down with Euphoria might once again be better and let the others pump him full of S&S.
TL;DR: Fireball or Napalm (or another indirect area spell) to deal with groups of mooks and possibly even the enemy mage. A save or suck spell (Euphoria) to take out the enemy meatshield. Spirits I leave to my spirits and don't try to cast on it. So I only really need one indirect area spell
That's all of the "common" enemies I can think of that I expect a standard runner team runs into on a fairly regular basis. What do you think? Any additions? Anything I did totally wrong on my spell selection?
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Ball Lightning for your indirect, since it does good damage, reasonable drain, area, damages electronics like crazy and lowers enemy initiative. Win-Win-Win.
Stunbolt for your direct. It gives you a non-lethal option, reasonable drain, hits spirits in astral or meatspace, and if you want to kill someone it'll do fine with overflow.
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+1 to that.
It's not for nothing a staple choice.
If you happen to have high unarmed skill the Punch spell is very effective too - especially if you get it as limited spell with a fetish: F-8 Drain allows you easily to risk casting it at F 12, doing 12S AP-12 + Successes (there is no resistance check besides Counterspell, since the defense test is rolled against your unarmed attack)
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I considered Ball Lightning, but then I thought "Wait a second, non-conductivity is probably the most common armor upgrade ever" and Napalm is Fire and Water damage, so a lot harder to resist, and has a knockdown attached to it. Yes +1 drain, but I can hopefully handle that.
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Don't forget that you get a massive AP value
Drain is no laughing matter. Every +1 requires 3 dice to resist damage - both from you and your target. Even with a full 6 points of non-conductivity your target can only counter 2 extra damage - which is incidentally exactly how much more force you can allow yourself to dish out with the single element spell.
Dice penalties and ini-reduction on your enemies is huge, while a knockdown doesn't prevent your enemy from keeping to shoot you.
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BangBang's advice is spot-on for most situations when you only have 2 spare spell slots. I would broaden it slightly to say "Indirect AOE in whichever element you like."
An important addition to common enemies, depending on the nature of your campaign: drones and vehicles.
Quatar is perfectly correct that non-conductivity is very common. Even so, I often take Ball Lightning because electricity damage is the tits against drones and vehicles. But if your character leans toward fire or napalm or acid, those are wiz too. Fire certainly has a psychological impact on living targets, but also a habit of igniting things that you may prefer not to have on fire.
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I have an alternative to the indirect AoE spell. The "ice storm" or whatever it is that it's called. First of all, when we talk about armor modifications, unless your setting is in a rather Cold area then "insulation" would probably be the least common modification. Second it has the chance to destroy armors, third it also acts as a ice sheet spell making the ground hazardous to move over for several turns. Yes it has higher drain than the others, but it's worth it if people have no extra protection against it, especially if you dont kill them, then Theres a good chance they will slip on the ice on following turns.
But by the way, an illusion/ manipulation mage is really fun to play, thats how i started my mage way back in 4th edition. Since then i have added several combat spells, amongst them the aforementioned ice AoE spell which i have used many many times to great effect.
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- Group of Mooks: Don't go lethal with this. You want the Blast spell, which is an Indirect AoE, but does Stun. Why? Because the easiest way to get a High Threat Response team to snipe you from orbit is to be a magician painting the walls with gore and burning down a building with Fireball. Blast's downsides compared to elementals are the lack of secondary effects-- But those aren't that important. So use Blast.
- Meatshileds/Street Sams: There's two things you can do. The first one is iffy though; overuse it and your GM will hate you, and characters in the game will never trust you again: Control Thoughts or Control Actions. Both are Mental spells that a big meaty troll won't be exceptional at defending (save for a few exceptions). Turn the enemy to your side, sew confusion in the ranks, and... Well, as OP as it is, yes, you could make them kill themselves. Discuss this frankly overpowered spell with your GM before picking it. Otherwise? Go for Euphoria like you suggested if you aren't trying to be sneaky. It's not especially unpleasant... Less hard feelings, if you care. Otherwise Stench works too.
- Other mages: Turn to Goo. Resisted with Body + Counterspelling, takes them out of the fight completely, and afterwards, they'll have any armor on the floor with any weapons or foci as well. Steal away! If you want to just murder another mage, like if they've summoned a spirit and you want to geek them to remove it... Go with Lightning Bolt. Yes, they could counterspell it and it isn't a perfect counter, but the penalty is very potent and it works well against drones as well. Nonconductivity is common, but you have such high AP that it isn't the worse thing in the world. If it bothers you, Flamethrower, if you just absolutely want to murder someone.
- Spirits: Other spirits are the most convenient, but Blast from earlier can do some work and won't destroy everything. Alternatively, you can use Mana Barrier to lock them down. Offensive Mana Barrier is cool, but the Drain is really high at F+3DV.
- MAGE & SPIRIT COMBO SPECIAL!!: Mana Static! Just causes background count equal to the hits. It isn't resisted by anything. BG causes a penalty to everything a spirit does, and anything the mage does that uses the MAG attribute. If they have a focus, the force is lowered and it can be snuffed out. If they have sustained spells, this can snuff them out as well or just weaken them. If you get in the area, move it, or stop sustaining it. It's not to be overlooked.
- Need target alive: Punch or Clout. Most of my mages know Clout as a limited spell for the drain reduction, because being able to sling F9 Clout at everything without a care in the world is marvelous. Both do Stun only, but Punch has such a tiny drain, you can cast it at ludicrously high Force. A F12 Punch will take out anyone who isn't a hulk. Control Action or Control Thoughts also works here, and is a bit less offensive to the GM, as you're just making the target follow you. Influence is a less violating way to do that as well; in a shootout, using Influence and shouting "Come with me if you want to live!" under the confusion can easily be enough to work.
A note about Control Actions/Thoughts. I think the best use of them, in-game and out, is for subduing people. Force them to comply, then use some zipties to immobilize them. Cuffs for someone who's abnormally strong. You gotta "take the high road" with those spell, morally, or else you will quickly be thought of the same way everyone thinks of Haze: A violator of the worst kind, to whom the word "rapist" doesn't begin to describe.
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I have an unarmed Dice Pool of maybe 2, so while Punch does a lot of damage I have my doubts I'll actually get to deliver it reliably.
Your point about using non-lethal on Mooks is probably a good one Firebug, but then likely our street sam will riddle them with bullets anyway. But that's more "normal" and not "freakish magic".
And I totally had not thought about drones/vehicles. Hmm, lightning is nice against those. But "just have a spirit smash them" is usually a valid response to so much...
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For "Meatshileds/Street Sams:" also don't forget spirit powers. These can work pretty well on some of these targets (fear, noxious breath, etc). . Generally a little less well on serious sammies, but then again what does work well on serious sammies, other than mind control stuff?
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- Group of Mooks: Don't go lethal with this. You want the Blast spell, which is an Indirect AoE, but does Stun. Why? Because the easiest way to get a High Threat Response team to snipe you from orbit is to be a magician painting the walls with gore and burning down a building with Fireball. Blast's downsides compared to elementals are the lack of secondary effects-- But those aren't that important. So use Blast.
- Meatshileds/Street Sams: There's two things you can do. The first one is iffy though; overuse it and your GM will hate you, and characters in the game will never trust you again: Control Thoughts or Control Actions. Both are Mental spells that a big meaty troll won't be exceptional at defending (save for a few exceptions). Turn the enemy to your side, sew confusion in the ranks, and... Well, as OP as it is, yes, you could make them kill themselves. Discuss this frankly overpowered spell with your GM before picking it. Otherwise? Go for Euphoria like you suggested if you aren't trying to be sneaky. It's not especially unpleasant... Less hard feelings, if you care. Otherwise Stench works too.
- Other mages: Turn to Goo. Resisted with Body + Counterspelling, takes them out of the fight completely, and afterwards, they'll have any armor on the floor with any weapons or foci as well. Steal away! If you want to just murder another mage, like if they've summoned a spirit and you want to geek them to remove it... Go with Lightning Bolt. Yes, they could counterspell it and it isn't a perfect counter, but the penalty is very potent and it works well against drones as well. Nonconductivity is common, but you have such high AP that it isn't the worse thing in the world. If it bothers you, Flamethrower, if you just absolutely want to murder someone.
- Spirits: Other spirits are the most convenient, but Blast from earlier can do some work and won't destroy everything. Alternatively, you can use Mana Barrier to lock them down. Offensive Mana Barrier is cool, but the Drain is really high at F+3DV.
- MAGE & SPIRIT COMBO SPECIAL!!: Mana Static! Just causes background count equal to the hits. It isn't resisted by anything. BG causes a penalty to everything a spirit does, and anything the mage does that uses the MAG attribute. If they have a focus, the force is lowered and it can be snuffed out. If they have sustained spells, this can snuff them out as well or just weaken them. If you get in the area, move it, or stop sustaining it. It's not to be overlooked.
- Need target alive: Punch or Clout. Most of my mages know Clout as a limited spell for the drain reduction, because being able to sling F9 Clout at everything without a care in the world is marvelous. Both do Stun only, but Punch has such a tiny drain, you can cast it at ludicrously high Force. A F12 Punch will take out anyone who isn't a hulk. Control Action or Control Thoughts also works here, and is a bit less offensive to the GM, as you're just making the target follow you. Influence is a less violating way to do that as well; in a shootout, using Influence and shouting "Come with me if you want to live!" under the confusion can easily be enough to work.
A note about Control Actions/Thoughts. I think the best use of them, in-game and out, is for subduing people. Force them to comply, then use some zipties to immobilize them. Cuffs for someone who's abnormally strong. You gotta "take the high road" with those spell, morally, or else you will quickly be thought of the same way everyone thinks of Haze: A violator of the worst kind, to whom the word "rapist" doesn't begin to describe.
I agree with most of what FB says here.
Blast, Lighting Bolt, Clout, Control Thoughts, are major Go To spells for me.
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The discussion here is great. I wonder if anyone has done a rating of each spell's usefulness, and why, which contains insights like this?
I'm kinda in the same boat as the original poster. Except I'm not sure whether to take combat spells at all as my toon has a 9 agi (boosted) and 16 (18) with automatics due to smart link.
My toon specializes in Illusion, and has a manipulation mentor spirit. 8 spells I'm 90% sure of are Improved Invisibility, Foreboding, Heal, Improved Attribute (INT + AGI), Control Thoughts, Levitate, and Deflection. AGI and Deflection are alchemical.
For my last two I'm leaning towards Blast (based on this thread) and Mana Barrier, but I'm totally torn given my 12 dice for combat skills compared to Automatics. Thoughts?
Btw, totally have been reading others ideas / toons to benefit from their experience. Thank you all for the sharing you've already done. :)
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Get one mana based, single target combat spell that targets willpower. This spell replaces Astral Combat and allows you to damage things with mundane weapon immunity.
Mana barrier is a very good spell to have since it's effectively also counter spell for spells directed at you and anyone inside your protective barrier
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Thanks for the suggestion, and good to hear about mana barrier.
I struggle with direct damage spells. On average I'd be doing 2 - 3 boxes of stun damage. In the physical world the analysis suggests I'm better off with an assault rifle against any reasonable force spirit (Force 12 I think we all just die regardless of anything we do ;-). In astral I have the option to use spirits, mana barrier, and foreboding.
It's not that I don't want a direct damage spell; it's more whether there's a more useful spell out of the gate, and whether I pick it up at character creation vs. later. [I hear your vote for character creation - I'm guessing that it's so that I can take out a watcher / low force spirit without summoning my own spirit?]
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I have an unarmed Dice Pool of maybe 2, so while Punch does a lot of damage I have my doubts I'll actually get to deliver it reliably.
Your point about using non-lethal on Mooks is probably a good one Firebug, but then likely our street sam will riddle them with bullets anyway. But that's more "normal" and not "freakish magic".
And I totally had not thought about drones/vehicles. Hmm, lightning is nice against those. But "just have a spirit smash them" is usually a valid response to so much...
I believe Punch was errata'd to just use the Spellcasting test in place of the Unarmed? So that it is simply a touch-ranged spell. But I could be wrong...
Your Street Sam could be persuaded to use gel rounds on mooks, perhaps.
"Just have a spirit smash them" is a valid response to prettymuch anything, yes.
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+1 to that.
It's not for nothing a staple choice.
If you happen to have high unarmed skill the Punch spell is very effective too - especially if you get it as limited spell with a fetish: F-8 Drain allows you easily to risk casting it at F 12, doing 12S AP-12 + Successes (there is no resistance check besides Counterspell, since the defense test is rolled against your unarmed attack)
Has to be a damage resistance test unless the spell specifically states the damage resistance test is bypassed. Unfortunately I haven't memorized every spell but it should default to either the Direct, Indirect, Manipulation, or Normal Combat rules unless specifically says no damage resistance test. It certainly could, but then I'd wonder why anyone ever cared about Spellblade....
Considering you can one shot a Dragon with this if there isn't a Soak test, just need a one-two punch. First mage throws a spell to use up counterspell and then die writhed in flames, second mage then runs up and one-punches the Dragon... easy peasy? At least for the second mage.
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@Hobbes
I might have phrased that a bit imprecise: Of course you still get a soak roll. With resistance test I meant the Rea+Int defense roll against the initial attack.
But due to the high AP the soak roll will for most enemies be little more than their body.
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Thank you. I was making plans for an Elf Mysad Dragon Puncher... I still may.
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I believe Punch was errata'd to just use the Spellcasting test in place of the Unarmed? So that it is simply a touch-ranged spell. But I could be wrong...
I don't find anything about that.
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It's not errata; it was a informed opinion offered by Aaron (a freelancer/contributor) as a clarification of developer intent.
See here: http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=11514.msg238774#msg238774
And here: http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=11514.msg241022#msg241022
The site is giving me grief about quoting the relevant post, so I'll just copy and paste:
In the specific case of a touch-range combat spell, the Spellcasting test takes the place of the Unarmed attack. So you only need to make the Spellcasting Test, which is defended against by the target's Reaction + Intuition.
It is not official but it is reasonable.
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Yeah, in only contradicts specific written out rules - not that I have a problem with that. It's less powerful with that rule, but the combat is a lot speedier that way.
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So, mechanically, Punch it the exact same thing as Clout, only you have to be right on top of the guy?
In turn you have an added -3 Drain ?
Meanwhile, for the same drain you would get +3 DV & -3 AP v/s Shooting them from Range?
Seems like a fair trade off, getting in close could cost you some pain & turns you could have been doing other things.
Actually, it makes Clout the weakest of the 3 now.
A combo of Blast & Punch would be nasty, provided you don't mind burning 2 spell slots.
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you mean recklessly casting punch and knockout while wearing shock gloves? thats um punch Force +net hits for knock out net hits against resistance test for dv -force for knock out and 8S DV -5 AP for the shock gloves
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Well, you're unable to make two attacks, period. So technically you could combine a spell with shock gloves, but what's good for the gander...
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well are ritual spells limited by the range too? like does the spotter of a touched range spell have to touch the target?
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well are ritual spells limited by the range too? like does the spotter of a touched range spell have to touch the target?
No... The ritual means that the spotter only has to observe the target, not touch him.
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- MAGE & SPIRIT COMBO SPECIAL!!: Mana Static! Just causes background count equal to the hits. It isn't resisted by anything. BG causes a penalty to everything a spirit does, and anything the mage does that uses the MAG attribute. If they have a focus, the force is lowered and it can be snuffed out. If they have sustained spells, this can snuff them out as well or just weaken them. If you get in the area, move it, or stop sustaining it. It's not to be overlooked.
I'm interested in exploring this idea. First of all, I notice the spell is Permanent so it's a pretty clever idea to cast it and treat it as a regular sustained spell and just drop it before (Force) combat turns (most battles don't last more than a few turns to begin with).
How do you envision it working based on the likelihood most magicians and spirits can easily move out of the affected area with a free action?
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- MAGE & SPIRIT COMBO SPECIAL!!: Mana Static! Just causes background count equal to the hits. It isn't resisted by anything. BG causes a penalty to everything a spirit does, and anything the mage does that uses the MAG attribute. If they have a focus, the force is lowered and it can be snuffed out. If they have sustained spells, this can snuff them out as well or just weaken them. If you get in the area, move it, or stop sustaining it. It's not to be overlooked.
I'm interested in exploring this idea. First of all, I notice the spell is Permanent so it's a pretty clever idea to cast it and treat it as a regular sustained spell and just drop it before (Force) combat turns (most battles don't last more than a few turns to begin with).
How do you envision it working based on the likelihood most magicians and spirits can easily move out of the affected area with a free action?
I used this tactic to GREAT effect in the Lagos part of the Artifact series. Not always can an opponent move out of the area [quickly enough], and when you drop it on them whilst they are there, and it is sufficiently powerful, well, ALL SPIRITS go poof, and the infected all had a really bad day.... :)
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I used this tactic to GREAT effect in the Lagos part of the Artifact series. Not always can an opponent move out of the area [quickly enough], and when you drop it on them whilst they are there, and it is sufficiently powerful, well, ALL SPIRITS go poof, and the infected all had a really bad day.... :)
Can you clarify "all spirits go poof"? The closest thing I can find is SG p. 32 in the sidebar on Background Count Rules, which states that "Dual-natured creatures or purely astral creatures take a negative dice pool penalty to all actions equal to the background count."
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I used this tactic to GREAT effect in the Lagos part of the Artifact series. Not always can an opponent move out of the area [quickly enough], and when you drop it on them whilst they are there, and it is sufficiently powerful, well, ALL SPIRITS go poof, and the infected all had a really bad day.... :)
Can you clarify "all spirits go poof"? The closest thing I can find is SG p. 32 in the sidebar on Background Count Rules, which states that "Dual-natured creatures or purely astral creatures take a negative dice pool penalty to all actions equal to the background count."
My Apologies...
The Artifact Series is a 4th Edition Campaign addon, and I forgot that Background Count worked differently in 4th Edition than it does in 5th Edition. To whit, MAGIC Score was reduced per the rating of the Background Count (in this particular instance, by 12, since I got a stupid amount of successes on the spell by spending Edge - But at least Frosty did not have to bail us out :) ). If that score was reduced to 0 for a Spirit, they were Disrupted. Not as Handy in 5th Edition. Also of note, the Mage in question had few to no Combat Spells (His Mentor Frowned upon using Combat Magic - How can you convert someone when they are dead?). So to make sure he could cover his and his team's ass in a crisis, he was fairly skilled (Skill 3 with a Specialty) in Assault Rifles for when the Mojo was not an option.
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My Apologies...
The Artifact Series is a 4th Edition Campaign addon, and I forgot that Background Count worked differently in 4th Edition than it does in 5th Edition. To whit, MAGIC Score was reduced per the rating of the Background Count (in this particular instance, by 12, since I got a stupid amount of successes on the spell by spending Edge - But at least Frosty did not have to bail us out :) ). If that score was reduced to 0 for a Spirit, they were Disrupted. Not as Handy in 5th
Edition. Also of note, the Mage in question had few to no Combat Spells (His Mentor Frowned upon using Combat Magic - How can you convert someone when they are dead?). So to make sure he could cover his and his team's ass in a crisis, he was fairly skilled (Skill 3 with a Specialty) in Assault Rifles for when the Mojo was not an option.
Ah, too bad, I could've used a spell that instantly took out spirits like that. :-)
Here's a rules hack that depends on how tolerant your GM is: recklessly cast Mana Static and then Physical Barrier at the same force. Because Physical Barrier is a dome instead of a sphere like other AOE, you can place it just an inch higher than your Mana Static spell and it won't intersect the background count. Enemy magician trapped inside the barrier is stuck with the background count penalty, and is too weak both physically and magically to shatter the barrier. (And if they try to cast at you outside the barrier they take an additional -1 penalty from the light fog effect.) Spirits can take down the barrier from the outside but if they're trapped inside with the Magician will need to dematerialize and rematerialize on the other side to be effective, which at the very least buys you some precious time.
Don't think you could make an argument for doing this with Mana Barrier, which is a conventional LOS (A) spell, which means either it overlaps and intersects with the background count if cast at the same Force (thereby rendering it ineffective), or if cast at a higher Force leaves sufficient space for a spirit to be between the barrier and the Mana Static field.