Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Redactedguy on <05-25-16/0314:23>
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Is it me or is Shape Change infinitely better than Shifters?
Shape change adds +X (Up to augmented max) for a person while in critter form, allows you to do so as a Spell (Rather quickly too).
Then there is being a Shifter, which just sounds like a karma sink seeing as the stats are separate depending on which form you are in.
And then there is the metamagic that allows you to shift into an animal?
Opinions on what is best?
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Is it me or is Shape Change infinitely better than Shifters?
Shape change adds +X (Up to augmented max) for a person while in critter form, allows you to do so as a Spell (Rather quickly too).
Then there is being a Shifter, which just sounds like a karma sink seeing as the stats are separate depending on which form you are in.
And then there is the metamagic that allows you to shift into an animal?
Opinions on what is best?
What is "best"?
How about the one you'll have most fun roleplaying?
Do you want to play an awakened animal that has learned to take on a metahuman form? Then playing a Shifter is "best".
Do you want to play an awakened metahuman who occasionally turns into an animal? Then the Shape Change spell is "best".
There is no definitive answer here. It's down to what will provide each player with the greatest enjoyment.
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Shapechange is by far the best, thanks to the effects you mentioned.
Shapeshift could have the benefit of transforming bound foci with you (that isn't exactly written out, but the turn to mist ability of vampires does this, so it's reasonable to assume Shapeshift would do so too)
The beastform of Way of the Beast Adepts is by far the weakest and I wouldn't recommend it at all.
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or(to add to Sterling's Idea)
You play a Shapeshifter mystic Adept with the Spell Shapechange (Which I Intend to do ."Beastmaster" a Face Adept who's very able in influencing Metahumans and Paracritters .A Bald Eagle /Dryad Shapeshifter with Sioux Tradition and with some trained Animals at his side )
to have both
>>> Opinions on what is best?
best is what gives You, your GM,your table the most fun
(Shadowrun is an RPG , not a Boardgame ! for Goddes sake)
with a Fun Dance
Medicineman
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Shifters make me sad I love the Kitsune of Japan but the vulpine shifters aren't really the same because myth's don't match truth in this setting. Most of it I could work around disguise magic/shapeshifting spell but the comment of them cut off their tails to pass for human? I mean really ears, fur, paws all can be changed but you can't get rid of your tail so you take a knife to it YOU'RE an animal not a human wear a coat or long skirt. Still would prefer a less obvious tell like hair being the same colour as fur or unnatural eyes (amber/yellow). I'd still play one for the roleplay but as I said they make me sad and so many questions about them aren't really covered how long do they live, can they talk to "normal animals", could you wind up partially transformed e.g. a paw instead of a hand if it was burnt as a distraction, etc, etc. Then of course there's the karma sink some abilities require and the sheer bewildering concept of going from 3 logic in animal form to 6 in human if you spend karma that way or worse going from 5 logic in fox form to 1 in human "Ummm let me turn into a fox so I understand this . . . Yip YIP (Oh its calculus X is 17.)"
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I'm going to echo Sterling here. A shapeshifter vs a magician casting Shape Change are two very different things. Being a magical animal who can inherently shapechange into a human form vs a magician who can cast a spell to temporarily turn into an animal form. Decide which playstyle appeals to you more and do that.
If all you care about is pure mechanics, I'm not very familiar with how 5th Edition handles shifters. I keep hearing something about them losing regeneration in 5th? Regardless, a magician who casts shape change can get some attribute bonuses, but they come with downsides as well. Any attribute bonuses you roll are offset by the sustaining penalty you'll take while in the animal shape. Yes, there are some ways around that but they all come require a fairly hefty investment or have their own downside.
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>>>> If all you care about is pure mechanics, I'm not very familiar with how 5th Edition handles shifters.
like Redhaired freckled Stepchildren or Harry Potter by his Muggle Family ;)
No more Regeneration, no more Dualism, but they keep the Disadvantage of not accepting non-Deltaware which was a Regenerations Disadvantage but is no a Shapeshifting one
( the thing with the Non-Deltaware is OK by Me because I only play awakened,magical Shapeshifters if at all but its a Disadvantage nonetheless)
>>>> Any attribute bonuses you roll are offset by the sustaining penalty you'll take while in the animal shape.
Focused Concentration or a Spell Focus help a lot with that Nuisance ;)
with a focused Dance
Medicineman
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No more Regeneration, no more Dualism, but they keep the Disadvantage of not accepting non-Deltaware which was a Regenerations Disadvantage but is no a Shapeshifting one
>>>> Any attribute bonuses you roll are offset by the sustaining penalty you'll take while in the animal shape.
Focused Concentration or a Spell Focus help a lot with that Nuisance ;)
with a focused Dance
Medicineman
I'd heard there was no more regeneration (Ouch!) but no more being dual natured either? WTF?
And yeah. Focused Concentration or a Spell Focus would offset the sustaining penalty. Like I said, there are ways around that. That still leaves the problem that an astral enemy magician could dispell your shape change and leave you in human form in the middle of a fight, something that couldn't happen to a shifter.
Regardless, either way is a viable way of playing, it really comes down to which playstyle you prefer. ;)
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All shapeshifters should have Allergy (Silver, Severe), Dual Natured, Regeneration, Sapience, and Vulnerability (Silver) among their racial traits, according to the traits established in SR4 (Runner's Companion, p.87) and SR3 (Shadowrun Companion, p.36). I imagine the relevant section was omitted or deleted by accident. I fully expect this to be clarified in official errata for Run Faster (if they ever release any), but until then, it's a house rule at my table.
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All shapeshifters should have Allergy (Silver, Severe), Dual Natured, Regeneration, Sapience, and Vulnerability (Silver) among their racial traits, according to the traits established in SR4 (Runner's Companion, p.87) and SR3 (Shadowrun Companion, p.36). I imagine the relevant section was omitted or deleted by accident. I fully expect this to be clarified in official errata for Run Faster (if they ever release any), but until then, it's a house rule at my table.
( I knew I forgot something....Silver Allergy ,gnaaaahh)
not by accident , but on purpose
CGL made it quite clear that Shapeshifters don't have any of these Powers and Disadvantages anymore. Now in 5th ed they're mere (smart) Animals that can shapeshift into Metahumans.
as far as I follow this Forum (and Dumpschock) there is not even a Hint that this will ever be erattaed.
It hasn't been changed in the German books too which is also a very (very ! )strong indicator that you need too keep the qualities from 4th Ed as a Houserule in 5th Ed.
with a Housedance
Medicineman
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All shapeshifters should have Allergy (Silver, Severe), Dual Natured, Regeneration, Sapience, and Vulnerability (Silver) among their racial traits, according to the traits established in SR4 (Runner's Companion, p.87) and SR3 (Shadowrun Companion, p.36). I imagine the relevant section was omitted or deleted by accident. I fully expect this to be clarified in official errata for Run Faster (if they ever release any), but until then, it's a house rule at my table.
( I knew I forgot something....Silver Allergy ,gnaaaahh)
not by accident , but on purpose
CGL made it quite clear that Shapeshifters don't have any of these Powers and Disadvantages anymore. Now in 5th ed they're mere (smart) Animals that can shapeshift into Metahumans.
as far as I follow this Forum (and Dumpschock) there is not even a Hint that this will ever be erattaed.
It hasn't been changed in the German books too which is also a very (very ! )strong indicator that you need too keep the qualities from 4th Ed as a Houserule in 5th Ed.
with a Housedance
Medicineman
Agreed... I far prefer the new take on the Shifters, to be honest. I do not miss the supernatural baggage they possessed.
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All shapeshifters should have Allergy (Silver, Severe), Dual Natured, Regeneration, Sapience, and Vulnerability (Silver) among their racial traits, according to the traits established in SR4 (Runner's Companion, p.87) and SR3 (Shadowrun Companion, p.36). I imagine the relevant section was omitted or deleted by accident. I fully expect this to be clarified in official errata for Run Faster (if they ever release any), but until then, it's a house rule at my table.
( I knew I forgot something....Silver Allergy ,gnaaaahh)
not by accident , but on purpose
CGL made it quite clear that Shapeshifters don't have any of these Powers and Disadvantages anymore. Now in 5th ed they're mere (smart) Animals that can shapeshift into Metahumans.
as far as I follow this Forum (and Dumpschock) there is not even a Hint that this will ever be erattaed.
It hasn't been changed in the German books too which is also a very (very ! )strong indicator that you need too keep the qualities from 4th Ed as a Houserule in 5th Ed.
with a Housedance
Medicineman
Agreed... I far prefer the new take on the Shifters, to be honest. I do not miss the supernatural baggage they possessed.
Just to throw a new spin onto this, I'm reading the new Howling Shadows critter book (love it, love it, love it) and on page 59 there's a throwaway comment when talking about Demon Rats:
"The gamma variant exhibits regenerative abilities similar to shifter species."
Just when I thought this was all done and dusted, that one sentence leaps out and grabs me by the throat. Cue wild discussion over what is correct.
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Changes like that can be conveniently explained away with rising mana-levels/shifts - just like the section talking about how infected allergies are growing stronger.
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>>>>> "The gamma variant exhibits regenerative abilities similar to shifter species."
for me this is just one of the many sad examples that the Freelancers (those that wrote this) have no Idea of the actual Rules, in this case that SR5 Shifter don't posses Regeneration anymore.
And also that the Editor in Chief (the one whose responsability should be to doublecheck anything published ) didn't check this paragraph
OR (Option B ) it means that CGL had made a Mistake with them stripping Shifters of all their former Powers and Weaknesses and that we will get an Erratta soon. (but I wouldn't hold my Breath for Option B ;) )
with an optional Dance
Medicineman
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You forgot . . .
(Option C) The gamma variant and shifters have the same regenerative ability i.e. none.
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Writers went to great lengths to justify relatively minor changes to the Infected in SR5; it seems unlikely to me that they would then completely ignore major changes to shapeshifters. For me, the biggest telltale is leaving out "Sapience" along with Allergy, Dual Natured, Regeneration, and Vulnerability. I doubt anyone is prepared to argue that shapeshifters are no longer sapient in SR5, and that quality was listed right alongside the others in SR4 (Shifter Powers, Runner's Companion, p.87).
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You forgot . . .
(Option C) The gamma variant and shifters have the same regenerative ability i.e. none.
Ha!
Not this time. The stat block has a specific reference to regeneration.
I know there's some serious whining going on lower down the page, but I'm finding this book to be brilliant.
or(to add to Sterling's Idea)
You play a Shapeshifter mystic Adept with the Spell Shapechange
Ouch. Just trying to twist my head around creating that type of character just plain hurts!
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Mechanically Shifters are in a tough place. Priority gen is tough and Shifters pay a high price for limited mechanical benefits.
As a GM, personally, I'd houserule Shifters if a player really wanted to play one. I'd suggest tacking on Uncanny Healer for free as a start.
I'd also just clean some of the obvious stuff up. The MAG column is Edge, the unlabeled column is an initiative bonus, Shifters have a Magic 1, max 6, and the 1 point is a "freebie" for Mages/Adepts to save an SAP. Throw in a higher default on Unarmed and the Outdoors skill group (for most anyway).
Just get them a little nudge.
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You forgot . . .
(Option C) The gamma variant and shifters have the same regenerative ability i.e. none.
Ha!
Not this time. The stat block has a specific reference to regeneration.
I know there's some serious whining going on lower down the page, but I'm finding this book to be brilliant.
or(to add to Sterling's Idea)
You play a Shapeshifter mystic Adept with the Spell Shapechange
Ouch. Just trying to twist my head around creating that type of character just plain hurts!
Actually if it weren't for the loss of astral perception I'd be tempted to play that for my kitsune concept. Shifter for the base race, mystic adept for the adept power to physically change your body (race, Sex, appearance) and shapechange for different animals.