Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: kyoto kid on <06-30-16/0420:13>
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...so I came up with a concept for an archery Adept. Yeah, a bit of a throwback in the days of high powered automatic weapons, gauss rifles, and even man portable lasers. However the idea was still interesting as with the right grouping of skills I thought could be rather effective. For one bows are deadly silent with no muzzle flash, they have decent range for a strength powered weapon which make them perfect for sniping, they can be internally smartlinked, and there are a number of high tech arrowheads that can deliver a wide array of painful effects.
OK, so I can understand a bow being tuned for a certain strength (bows in RL are rated in pounds of pull), but arrows?
In 3rd ed bows were priced on a STR minimum, however arrows were just arrows with no "ratings" as like bullets, the were considered an expendable.
Standard arrows cost 10¥ ea, Ranger-X arrows (Cannon Companion) 18¥ ea. While CC also had different types of arrowheads each different costs that added to the base arrow, the prices were flat with no multiplier for rating. So the most expensive arrow one could get was an EX Explosive Ranger-X arrow at 68¥ ea OK still pricey but not like a say rating 6 Monotip Head Arrow (basically APDS for bows) that costs a whopping 180¥ ea. That's almost twice the cost of a single Depleted Uranium round.
...and there's no way to do a double tap with a bow.
The character I have been working on uses a Rating 8 bow so twenty matched Montip arrows comes to 4,800¥. That's 600 rounds worth of of APDS ammo that can go into any gun, from a holdout to a Barrett M22. Her team's face better negotiate some fat paydays just so she can stay well stocked each for job.
This is where I think the developers may have got a little carried away.
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You know you could also go with Barbed Arrow heads on regular arrows, right? You aren't forced into buying the most expensive arrows for every job...
You're talking about buying an arrow that costs 15 times the normal amount. Yes, it is hard to make highly penetrative arrows, those things are already designed to punch hard.
There is a slight possibility that the Ares Monotip was supposed to be +30 to the normal cost rather than 30 per rating, but I couldn't tell you.
What I can say is that I've seen an Archer Adept work quite effectively, and without using the Ares Monotip, so it is by no means a deal breaker...
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Not to mention you can actually retrieve spent arrows and reuse them.
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Not to mention you can actually retrieve spent arrows and reuse them.
Exactly. The shaft might not be usable, but the expensive arrowhead probably makes it. Plus, recovering it removes one more method of the officials tracking you down.
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Crossbows > Bows and still have that low tech flavor. At least as much as a sci-fi material, smart linked, telescopic sighted bow could be called low tech. ;)
But yes, Bow users pay a heavy cost for cool.
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Here's an idea that might cut the cost down long term and keep you well supplied.
Take Artisan (Arrow Creation) and buy an archery shop.
You will be able to craft standard heads, barbed heads, hammerheads, and screamer heads right off the bat.
The other variants would require either more knowledge or someone that has that knowledge.
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Uh, not quite Hobbes. Bows can do more damage and don't rely on an internal magazine. +2 DV versus a reduction of AP by 1 (which arrowheads can easily rectify) if you're going full Archer.
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Uh, not quite Hobbes. Bows can do more damage and don't rely on an internal magazine. +2 DV versus a reduction of AP by 1 (which arrowheads can easily rectify) if you're going full Archer.
Arrowheads would work for Crossbows just fine. AFB so it's entirely possible there is some restriction I missed. And Bow DV is based on Str so you'd need a fairly beefy character for the bow to do more damage. Again, could be I'm not recalling the Crossbow rules correctly.
And IMO internal magazine is a plus, not a minus. With a Smartlinked Crossbow you can change ammo and fire on the same action pass just like you can with Bows if you want to go with the Quiver of many Tricks concept.
Bow using character with a high Strength and Agility has the benefit of being set up for a standard melee build. But, like any Firearms using character, the Crossbow build can pick up Shock Glove/Monowhip/Stun Baton and carry on. As a bonus smaller crossbows are much more concealable than a bow and are legal so make a more convenient everyday carry weapon. And freeing up the stat points from Str normally lets you Prioritize something else higher or bump up secondary stats and wind up an overall better 'runner.
The style differences between Crossbow and Bow are cosmetic but the mechanical difference is non-trivial. The OP is complaining about the inefficient mechanics of Bows, seems that maybe Crossbows may be a viable alternative for the character concept. Maybe, maybe not, but certainly worth pointing out in case the OP hadn't considered them.
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Here's an idea that might cut the cost down long term and keep you well supplied.
Take Artisan (Arrow Creation) and buy an archery shop.
You will be able to craft standard heads, barbed heads, hammerheads, and screamer heads right off the bat.
The other variants would require either more knowledge or someone that has that knowledge.
..,would love to but can't, this is a Missions character and according the Missions FAQ, characters are not permitted to do their own B&R in downtime.
Ran into the same issue with my demolitions expert Leela. All she is allowed to do is juryrig things on the fly (Juryrigging Quality) which is useful for setting boob traps and that's about it..
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Not to mention you can actually retrieve spent arrows and reuse them.
...that is a nice idea but it means sticking around the scene longer to allow the authorities to show up. This is why I consider arrows to be "expendable". She and her team members are not (except maybe to the corp which hired us).
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...using a rating 8 bow (with STR pumped), the character already has the same DV as a heavy crossbow. 10P and one less in the AP, -2 instead of - 3 (with a standard arrow).
One of the advantages however is range. At the character's base strength (6) medium range is 60m (she has a monocle with vision mag so that effectively reduces the range mod by one level with the take aim action) with her strength pumped up to (8) it's 80m. Where it gets even better are longer ranges 180m/240m at long (-1) and 360m/480m at extreme (-3). OK so not the 1.5 KM of a sniper rifle but in this respect superior to a crossbow.
Again, my contention is not with the bow rating, that has been around since 1st ed and again in a sense exists in RL with pull ratings. It's the individual arrow ratings which really don't make sense. I'd rather pay a bit more for a high quality bow and have the arrows all a flat price like they were in 3rd ed (didn't play much 4th ed so don't remember how it was handled there).
...oh yeah the character also has melee skill as well, and after her first mission, will be wielding a Highland Claymore as she's quite the strappin' Scottish Lass.
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Uh, a rating 10 arrow costs 20 nuyen. This isn't really expensive and is reusable (unlike, say, reagents), unless someone is firing them all willy-nilly in a way as to prevent fetching them. And there's definitely some real life comparisons to arrow 'ratings.'
If you leave arrows behind, you leave evidence behind. Sure, it takes a moment to grab one, but that's better than leaving bits behind in my opinion. Generally an archer isn't firing all willy-nilly.
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Yeah, he's complaining because the monotip arrows are significantly more expensive. They're 30×Rating instead of ×2. So it isn't so much a problem with archery, just with that one arrow type. Answer there is: maybe that arrow isn't worth the nuyen.
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...standard arrows are fine for when the oppos are very lightly armoured. Shoot at a guard in FBA? or even an armoured jacket with ballstic mask, you want some extra AP to help reduce your target's soak roll as much as possible so he takes more boxes of damage. Also as there is no burst fire with arrows, a shot can be more easily dodged unless you get a really good number of hits or get the total drop on your target. Add the Enhanced Accuracy Adept power and internal smartlink to crank that accuracy up as much as possible.
If you are sniping from say 200 - 300m away, are you going to go running up after the fight is over to hunt around for your arrows? Usually at night when your teammates are yelling you to hurry up and get in the van because someone hears a rotodrone or police cruiser rapidly approaching?
Almost considering going with incendiary and EX arrows which would destroy the evidence.
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Having a variety of arrows is probably your best bet. In cases where you know that you aren't going to be able to recover your arrows, you could go with the self-destructing type arrows.
If you absolutely want to have some of the Monotips on hand, I would probably only use them sparingly and in cases where you could recover them. I mean you're basically shooting mini mono-filament swords there. Those things aren't cheap for a reason.
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...again, the thinking is Mono Tip arrows are like APDS rounds that grant an extra -4 to the AP. I do not have Hard Targets and the Chummer Generator does not list the actual statistics for different arrow head types (for some reason they also didn't include the Dynamic Tension Bow either).
Can someone post that info?
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Well, if you don't have Hard Targets, you probably shouldn't be using it for your Missions character. SRM doesn't really have a rule for "you must have the book you are using rules from" but it's sort of common courtesy to at least have a rules reference for a GM that isn't familiar.
Dynamic Tension Bow is one less accuracy than a normal bow, but you can adjust the strength on it (still from 1-10). Otherwise, it has the same stats as a normal bow. You just are buying an effective Rating 12 bow for the convenience of being able to adjust it.
Monotip Arrows are only an additional -2 AP
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...pretty much those who GM in our group have all the books/PDFs already as they get special "agent" bonuses/deals from Catalyst . Also among all the players in the group, pretty much all the books are represented. It takes me a while to save up to get a new PDF as I am on a fixed income.
Thanks for the info on the bow. Seems the main advantage is if your character uses temporary augmentations like drugs, spells or adept powers. so you don't need several different bows with different ratings.
Wow 30¥ x rating for just another -2 AP? That's pretty worthless, leads me to wonder if it isn't a typo and instead should be 3¥ x rating. Is there an errata out yet?
In the meantime, dumping those and of getting more EX as well as Incendiary arrows instead.
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You DO realize archery is an even more expensive sport then sport shooting today right?
Today, you can drop $100 to $2300 on a rifle, an other $40 to $300 will get you about 100 rounds of fun.
Bows however start at $150 (for something for a child) and go as high as $6000! (For all the bells, whistles, and tech)
Heck the SHAFTS for arrows (not including fletching, OR head!) Start at $6 each and go as high as $35 a shaft!
Fletching starts around $2.00 and again tops out around $24.
Heads cost you anywhere from $2.00 to $25.00 each! And no, not all are reuseable! (Many hunting broadheads expand on entry, causing massive tissue damage and blood loss, but are ruined in the process).
So even today, a single arrow can cost you between $11.00 and $125!
Don't believe me? A simple google search will turn up pricing for hunting supplies.
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Shadowrun is mostly priced for balance over verisimilitude.
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It's generally priced for both, in my experience. Balance becomes more important when it comes to things that don't have mundane, real world equivalents.
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....just discovered something that might be interesting. In looking at the on the arrowhead table in R&G, the only mod that actually increases in price by arrow rating is the static shaft. all other head types simply add to the final cost. So, a rating 8 arrow with a barbed head come to 26¥ (16¥ for the shaft and 10¥ for the arrowhead) that makes sense. Technically then a rating 8 Mono head arrow should be 46¥ (still high for just a -2 AP increase though yeah, it is monowire which costs 1,000¥ per metre) not 240¥.
So, what I think I may be running into is an error in the programme. that is calculating the full cost of both the head and shaft against the rating instead of just the base arrow shaft with 30¥ added for the head.
Could someone verify this so I can report it on the Chummer5 thread?.
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Chummer is correct, Monotip arrows costs 30¥xRating....for some reason. Also the only ones sold as arrows instead of arrowheads.
Personally i would simply houserule it into a Monotip Head that costs 30¥ since the "per Rating" cost doesn't make any sense compared to the other arrowheads and their bonuses.
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...yeah as finally able to get a look at Hard Targets and that's the way it's listed as well. Why would anyone purchase something so expensive (at rating 10, three times the cost of a Depleted Uranium round) that only grants an extra -2 AP? If the AP increased with the rating, then yes, the higher cost would make perfect sense..
I still would like to think that is a typo that will be fixed once (if) an errata is released.
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Xexanoth
Since this is for a Missions character, houserules isn't an option.
Kyoto kid
I would recommend posting in the Living Campaign FAQ post; Banshee and the FAQ guys are typically good about getting back to people with questions like this, either directly or by including it in the next FAQ update.
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...I would think it makes more sense to address what might be a possible error in one of the published books to Catalyst rather than the Missions coordinators as it affects both home grown and Missions campaigns. Just don't know where or how to do that.
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...I would think it makes more sense to address what might be a possible error in one of the published books to Catalyst rather than the Missions coordinators as it affects both home grown and Missions campaigns. Just don't know where or how to do that.
The track record of trying to get things fixed by Catalyst has been rather sub-par as of yet, which is why people focus towards going through other avenues first.
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Yeah, good luck with getting an official clarification from Catalyst in the form of Errata. Since you specified that this is a Missions character, you have a great avenue of approach in the Missions FAQ, which is as close to offficial as you're likely to get at this point. Just saying...
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...I wasn't aware that the Missions FAQ also served as a forum for errata.
I will take this matter there,
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http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=23881.0
Is the thread you want.
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...I wasn't aware that the Missions FAQ also served as a forum for errata.
I will take this matter there,
As far as I'm aware, it isn't actually for errata, mainly for clarifications that aren't clear in the books. There are a couple of cases where they clarify discrepancies between books or have changed some values to better balance for the game. But your worst case scenario for this is that the response is "that isn't really a question for Missions" so you would be no worse off. Not like their going to arbitrarily increase the price of something because you bothered to ask about it. (or would they, bwa haha)
My recommendation would be to post it as "this price seems weird, should the price of the Ares Monotip really be Rating times 30 or should it be like the alternate arrow heads from R&G that are an additional value on top of the normal arrow price? Like +30 nuyen?"
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Some quick and dirty math tells me the price of monotips is pretty close.
Here's why:
Monowire costs ¥1000 per meter, or ¥10 per centimeter.
Most hunting arrow heads are 4 to 6cm in length, with 2 to 3 points (some are even 4 pointed, but most I saw were 3 pointed).
So, if it has 3 points, each 4cm long, that is 12 cm of wire to cover each blade length.
So the cost of the monowire alone is ¥120. That does not take the cost of the arrowhead nor the costs of mounting the wire to the arrowhead into consideration....
So I have a feeling the 30x(rating) stands....
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...according to the description in Hard Targets:
"These broadhead arrows are sharpened to a single molecule thickness at the edge and excel at punching through modern armour. They provide -2 AP when used as ammunition"
(emphasis mine)
There is no mention of monowire at all.
The last sentence is also a bit odd as what other use than ammunition would you get them for?
As Carpe Omnis in his Shadowrun Armoury overview put it:
"Monotip arrows are almost ten times more expensive than something that is more effective..."
Exactly, why would anyone flush that much money down the loo when other less expensive heads are just as effective or better? An explosive head already grants -1 to AP in addition to +2P and only costs 35¥ at Rating 10 compared to 300¥ for just a flat -2 AP.
No, something seems amiss here.
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All in all you are better of to just ignore the mono arrows and instead use the rules for custom ammo to give an explosive head more AP
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Not sure you can "hand-load" arrows...
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An explosive arrow? Most certainly ;D
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I'm assuming when you say "custom ammo" you mean the Hand Loads from Hard Targets?
That's bullets, so not really...
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The texts speaks of ammo or ammunition. As GM I'd allow that to apply for bullets, arrows, gyrojet projectiles and bolts.
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I'm assuming when you say "custom ammo" you mean the Hand Loads from Hard Targets?
That's bullets, so not really...
Speaking as someone who hand loads, it should be possible to 'hand load' some arrow heads.
You'll have an issue with costs, as generally speaking, arrows and arrowheads are a lot more rare then buying lead, powder (and in the case of bass rounds, the brass and caps).
BUT, also keep in mind you are talking a VERY risky process. (Hand loading in general) where a simple muss-read of a chart turns a handgun into a hand held BOMB.
(Just ask my S&W King Cobra. I blew it up with a .38 special round. The explosion split the cylinder open like an orange peal, blew the top site into collar bone, and made a fantastic light show.)
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Speaking on RAW: Bolts and Arrows aren't categorized as "Ammo" they are on the chart with the bows, while Ammo is its own table in the SR5 Core.
Additionally, the text is very obviously talking about bullets, and refers to the modifications in the groups of 10, just like bullets. And the term "hand load" is a term specifically about the manufacture of bullets. It is the process of putting together the various components of the cartridge and assembling them yourself. You get the benefits of the handloading (+1DV or -1AP) because you are customizing the propellant, bullet, casing, etc to personal preference and the weapon itself.
You could argue that an archer could do something similar, but with the way archery is already laid out (with Ratings having a direct impact on all of these values already, and Rating being tied to the archer's abilities) you could also very easily argue that the effects of "handloading" is already built into Archery. Plus, as you pointed out, if you could hand load an explosive arrow and get more effect for less money, it even further invalidates the whole system.
I haven't personally handled firearms and I don't know, in depth, the process of handloading. So I don't know how it affects the bullets' accuracy, penetrating effectiveness, or damage. But I am a practiced archer, and I've put together my own arrows. And unless you just make it wrong, there isn't a whole lot to change...
EDIT: Apart from the arrow-head which already has rules for having different effects, so I can't in good faith call that an additional change.
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BUT, also keep in mind you are talking a VERY risky process. (Hand loading in general) where a simple muss-read of a chart turns a handgun into a hand held BOMB.
(Just ask my S&W King Cobra. I blew it up with a .38 special round. The explosion split the cylinder open like an orange peal, blew the top site into collar bone, and made a fantastic light show.)
...ouch, Yeah, I think Leela will leave that job up to Goober. Plastic explosives, grenades, and dynamite are dangerous enough to play around with.
All in all you are better of to just ignore the mono arrows
...yeah I took the Monotips off the character's gear list for now and just got more explosive heads. +2P and -1AP is better than just -2 AP. .
Also got one of those mini crossbows with Narcojet bolts.
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If you are interested, I will post the steps and tools needed to actually hand load shells if anyone is interested.
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@Reaver
Please do.
@Kiirnodel
Ok let me rephrase that:
You make a normal Build&Repair test to create customized arrows. To determine the needed effects, thresholds and times you can take inspiration from the hand load table. :)
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Tools needed:
A cap punch (sized to the ammo you are loading, only 4 basic sizes)
A loading press. (Good ones come with a punches built in)
A brass shaver. (It shaves brass. Duh :P)
A grain scale (a scale that expressly deals in Grain weights)
A Dye for the caliber of round to be loaded. The dye fits into the press and controls how deep a lead gets seated into the brass.
A powder dispenser/hopper (used to percisely measure out a consistant weight of powder every time. Probably THE most important tool next to the press)
A shell hammer. (Used to open up unfired rounds to check the powder load. Called a hammer because it looks exactly like a hammer!)
Leads of the right caliber that you want to load.
Brass casings of the caliber you want to load. (Either saved brass from fired rounds, or new brass)
Powder. (Pick your brand, there are DOZENS! All with different properties. Some burn fast and hot, some are low pressure, some are meant for humid climates...)
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First step. Inspect, clean and prepare the brass:
You want to carefully inspect each and every brass for signs of fatigue, dents, cracks or 'flat sides'. Remember that a bullet is only a pressure release difference from a bomb! Any signs of fatigue, thin walling, flat sides, cuts or dents is a weakness that turns a projectile into a bomb.
Cleaning should be done with a weak soap (I use dish soap). To remove any dirt or left over powder from the inside of the shell. Allow 36 to 72 hours to air dry. (This is where you use the punch to remove the spent cap).
Second step. Shaving and capping: if the brass has been already used, you use the brass shaver to 'shave' the brass of burrs and thin tipping. It takes off microns of brass at a time. Next you put in the new percussion cap with the press. At this time, you also press the brass into the dye to slightly expand the lip of the brass so the lead can seal it air tight. (During firing the heat and pressure straighten and compress the brass lip through friction)
Next step. Weigh out your powder. This is where you can f**k up and kill yourself (like I almost did). Check, double check, then check again that you know the weight of the powder, BASED OFF THE BRAND NAME YOU ARE USING!!! Do not ever assume 2 powders (even from the same brand) are the same. You do, you're dead. This takes the most time, you are litterally playing with the dispenser and your scale. There is NO room for error here. If the Brand says you need 3.67 grains of powder, you use 3.67 grains. Not 3.68 or 3.70.... its 3.67 get it right! Or lose a hand, if not more.
Last step. Pressing the shell: Once you have your hopper loaded and set to the correct weight, things really motor along now. Simply put the brass in the press, pour in the powder, set the lead, and pull down on the press handle all the way down. Finished.
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Why did I stress the powder so much? Simple, lets go back to my dead King Cobra.... it was a S&W King Cobra .357 magnum. (For those that don't know. A .38sp and a .357mag are the exact same size of shell, the difference is that a .357mag is longer. Thus if you own a .357mag you can shoot .38sp rounds from it no problem.)
In my case, I was using Bullseye Hot powder. For a .38sp shell you need 2.56 gr of powder.
But I read the table for Bullseye Humid, which called for 3.97gr.
So I loaded the .38sp with 3.97grains. When I pulled the trigger..... BOOOM! gun exploded and the rear site found its home in my collarbone. For Bullseye Hot. A .357mag load is 2.99 grains. That extra .98 grains of powder exceeded the tollerance for the harden stainless steel of the cylinder, splitting it open.
To understand just how little powder can make a huge difference keep this conversion in mind:
1 grain = 0.0648 grams.
In my case. 0.06 grams of powder turned a gun into a bomb. A weight difference that you couldn't even feel.
Edited because I missed a tool (dye) and where you use it, and when.
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Uh... You guys do realize why monotip arrows are cheaper than explosive, right? Explosive arrows explode. They're one-and-done items. Monotip can be recovered for as long as you put the effort into it. They also don't detonate, which makes them stealthier, among other things.
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Yeah, but as mentioned earlier, retrieval is not always an option. If retrieval is an option you are still better off with a static shaft shocker arrow.
@Reaver
Thanks, that's very enlightening
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Based on the wording, I was under the impression that Stick'n'Shock arrows are also one use. Just like taser darts.
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What wording would that be? The comparison on manufacturing problems?
There is no indication that the shafts should not be reusable. If the heads are rechargeable is probably GM dependent.
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Uh... You guys do realize why monotip arrows are cheaper than explosive, right? Explosive arrows explode. They're one-and-done items. Monotip can be recovered for as long as you put the effort into it. They also don't detonate, which makes them stealthier, among other things.
...the way I see it, most arrows are "one and done" unless you want to deal with the Star of KE showing up while you are poking around what is now a crime scene for all your misfired shafts. That would be a little more "costly" than simply replacing them.
Better to just have them self destruct to destroy the evidence.
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Uh... How are you fitting self-destruct sequences in these arrows? An explosive arrow isn't going to destroy all of the evidence, it just won't be usable after. And if you seriously can't spare the time to grab your arrows (less than a minute tops unless you're very slow or somehow put them in a position they can't be recovered), maybe that is the issue. Sure, in the middle of a firefight with the police it's not a wise idea, but pretty much any time you haven't activated the alarms? You are in the clear.
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...well, yeah, blow to pieces (the way incendiary heads are described it sounds as if they would consume the entire projectile).
Any protracted firefight is going to draw unwanted attention. be it some random civilian reports it or a passing patrol/drone takes notice. Yeah out in the Barrens, it may not be an issue (well depending on the nasty the GM is as you may look up to see a bunch of troll gangers staring at you and your chummers), However, in a city near an industrial facility were the guards could have a panic button to the Star or KE. In any sense, minutes could be the difference between getting out or getting arrested. I've been on enough missions where if we didn't get out quick we would get stuck facing a HTR team, or worse (in one of the London scenarios it was a mage strike team).
So OK let's say in the raid on the facility, my adept who is hidden on a roof of a near nearby building under her RP cloak fires off ten arrows during a combat. Two take down a sniper on the roof of the facility, three more nail guards on the ground taking one out with the other two wounded, while five are dodged and/or simply miss that go flying off...somewhere. So she would first have get down to the ground traverse the distance to the facility where the fight happened, get to the downed guards, retrieve those three arrows, maybe finding a couple on the ground they dodged, then have to get up to the roof to retrieve the two that took down the sniper and finally look around for the the remaining three that missed. Unless she has a spirit augmenting her movement, that is a heck of a lot of time.
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What wording would that be? The comparison on manufacturing problems?
There is no indication that the shafts should not be reusable. If the heads are rechargeable is probably GM dependent.
Well, I was still comparing them to the Stick'n'Shock bullets and taser darts. Neither of those are reusable as far as I'm aware.
And as far as GM goes, I know the OP is going with MIssions rulings, so the general would likely be no to allowances on recharging something that doesn't say it allows for recharge...
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If you go by that logic, neither does the text state you can recover mono arrows (especially since the text talks about sharpened to a molecule edge, not that it is made of sturdy bucky tubes - that sounds a lot as if they'd be dull as hell after hitting ceramic plate armor)
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So normal Stick'n'Shock ammo is rechargeable too?
All of the Shock ammo is specialized packs that are designed to hit and deliver a high voltage from a tiny deliverable. Conceptually, because they don't go into the detail, I've operated under the assumption that because of these factors the stick-n-shock effectively destroys itself as the electricity fuses the circuitry and burns out the battery. In addition, I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that ammunition wouldn't necessarily be designed to be reusable (so they use cheaper non-rechargeable batteries).
Arrows wouldn't necessarily function any differently in the long run, you can't put too much extra mass into the arrow or you completely throw off the weight and make the arrow useless.
I'm not going to argue about the dulling points of weaponry and needing to sharpen them...
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Good, because either you say you can reuse arrows or you say it is handled like any other ammunition and can't be reused.
That said: It's a bit of a straw man to argue against the reuse of shocker arrows based on shocker ammo - the size and mass difference is vast likewise the impact speed of bullets vs. arrows. That's not even comparing apples to oranges but physalis to pineapple.
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Arrows break. Especially if they're hitting hard surfaces, say like, armor plating. And if the pesky target keeps flailing around with all your 100+ Nuyen Ammo half way sticking out.
Just sayin.
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We don't know enough about balistic tech or arrows to rule either way.
But, I can tell you from my modern firearms knowledge that just about any round fired from gun is going to be destroyed on impact. This is simple science and phyics. The rapid decleration from inpact causes rounds (even Full Metal Jacketed rounds in some calibers) to warp an fragment, rendering them useless.
If you use a high powered bow with an arrow with a weak spine, it could shatter under the stress of the energy transfer. Too stiff of a spine, and the arrow will not fly correctly.
As to arrow recovery, I asked a bow hunter buddy of mine. He said he can usually reuse an arrow after hitting an animal, provided that the animal doesn't break it when it runs or falls. Apparently, dropping a larger animal like a deer in a single instant kill is very rare. Most often the strike is a mortal wound, but the animal bolts and runs on impact, dying of blood loss, stock and or organ failure minutes after the hit. (My buddy told me that generally after you land your hit, you just sit and wait for 10 minutes before tracking the animal down and finding where it collapsed, usually a couple hundred meters from where you shot it....
So yes, it could be possible to recover your arrows based on what he said...... at least some of the time.
And believe it or not, hitting a soft target (like an animal, or person) causes even more structural damage to the round.
Arrows on the other hand have different issues. And I am not an expert with bows; That's not to say I havn't used one. I have in fact used traditional bows from 3 seperate contenants, an english traditional made war bow, a sewswepmich trail bow, and a Ghana hunting bow. (I just freaking suck with them)
The problem faced with bows and arrows is the rapid transfer of energy from the bow to the arrow causes the arrow to flex in flight (known as the archer's paradox). This even happens with center fire bows (which most new bows are).
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Just noticed my phone butchered the organization of my last post. (Damn phone calls while typing!)
So its hard to follow and read.... I'll clean it up when I can get to an actual computer...
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...they even got the flex down in the film Brave.
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...well just realised a flaw in my plans In Missions you cannot start with gear above rating 6 so an archer character is stuck with basically a single shot heavy pistol. Even if the Dynamic Tension bow skirts that (because of it's variable rating) the character is still stuck using rating 6 arrows on her first job and cannot take advantage of strength buffs from adept powers, spells, or drugs.
Now I really miss the old Ranger -X.
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I think that's Device Rating being limited, not every possible rating. Otherwise you'd be stuck with pretty shit armor.
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Technically that the limit of Rating 6 is a base rule in the core book. But, yeah it does kinda say that. Adamo might be right about it meaning Device Rating, so I would say this one is definitely another qualifier for the Missions FAQ. There aren't many items that go up to ratings higher than 6, and most of those are limited by availability higher than 12 anyway...
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Yep, that's device rating, not generic "rating". Otherwise you'd be hard pressed to start with any kind of explosive...
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Technically that the limit of Rating 6 is a base rule in the core book. But, yeah it does kinda say that. Adamo might be right about it meaning Device Rating, so I would say this one is definitely another qualifier for the Missions FAQ. There aren't many items that go up to ratings higher than 6, and most of those are limited by availability higher than 12 anyway...
...I put the question up on the FAQ thread.
Also FWIW I checked the Errata thread for Hard Targets and there is a comment which mentioned maybe the stats for Montip arrows and Seeker Shafts might have been transposed. Makes sense as that affects the entire arrow shaft (like static shafts), so I quoted the post adding my support to the idea as well.
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ETA
...received clarification from GMs in my Missions group, and the bow/arrow ratings are not Gear ratings.
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Given my experience with archery (and the bow hunters I keep company with), I'd say most arrows of any feasible type would blunt, contort (irreversibly bend) or shatter on impact with anything harder than arid soil.
Factoring in the advancements in personal armor that Shadowrun has pushed, I'd call it a certainty.
In the long run, it'd probably be more financially beneficial for a dedicated archer character to be able to manufacture his/her own arrows; though at this time, I'm unsure how SR5 RAW handles that, if at all.
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Considering there are rules for hand loaded rounds in Hard Targets, hand crafted arrows is an easy extrapolation for any GM that isn't running Missions. Of course, it is up to the GM as no hard rules exist for this.
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If you really want extreme prices, play a Rigger.
;D
-k
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Considering there are rules for hand loaded rounds in Hard Targets, hand crafted arrows is an easy extrapolation for any GM that isn't running Missions. Of course, it is up to the GM as no hard rules exist for this.
I wouldn't even know where to start TBH.
With ammo, it's easy as most is case-less nowadays. So it's just the Bullet pressed into formed powder. And it it's Cased ammo, its Cap, Brass, powder and bullet..... everything you need fits on a single bench, and a competent loader can squeeze out 50 shells an hour.
But arrows? whole different ball of wax....
you have the heads, the shafts, the notch and the fletchings.... How much of that are you making versus just assembling? If you are just assembling from purchased materials (meaning you go buy a bunch of heads, shafts and fletchings and notches) then how much are you saving?
If you are making all that, then you are probably talking more work space then just a bench.....
you have to cut metal and form for the heads, shafts are generally made from graphite or aluminum, meaning a heat forge and moulds, Fletchings and notches are usually plastic so again cutting and melting.....
AND, they have to be made to a strength to withstand the bow....
But then again, arrows are not my area of expertise.... (hand loading is)
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I'm by no means a expert in arrow making (having glued some hundred arrows from different parts is all the hands on experience I have), but:
Arrow length can improve results as well as reduced or increased weight (a lighter arrow will fly faster and won't drop as much, but a heavier one is less prone to be influenced by wind), different arrow heads have a huge impact on penetration/wound size. There are whole philosophies around which fletching material, size and form you should use for best results.
Depending on the size and draw strength of your bow there are certainly a few ways to improve performance.
You don't need to make them from scratch. Carbonfiber rods can be cut to the right length (but should if possible have the right diameter already).
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Fortunately, Reaver, SR5's Hard Targets abstracts hand loading ammunition, even exotic kinds like Stick-n-Shock and Depleted Uranium (assuming you can find the raw materials, of course) into a single extended test with a fixed difficulty. Thus, you don't really need to think about real-world implications of what you're trying to accomplish, which, once again, you seem to get hung up on a lot, and just roll the dice until you hit the threshold (or not).
Let's take an example from Hard Targets. To craft ammo you need an Extended Armorer test, with the threshold and interval to craft 10 rounds listed on page 189. The table breaks ALL ammunition types into 4 simple categories; regular and special firearms ammo, and regular and special heavy weapons ammo. The threshold for the two former is 4 and 6 respectively with an interval of 30 minutes, while for the two latter it's 8 and 10 respectively with an interval of 1 hour. You need a Hand Loading tool kit and crafting materials costing the normal value of the ammunition +10%.
Thus, crafting 100 rounds of regular ammo for your Heavy Pistol would be 10 Extended Armorer tests, each with a threshold of 4 and a duration of 30 minutes. A semi-skilled PC with Logic 4, Armorer 4, and a specialty in Hand Loading rolls 10 dice, and will average 4 hits on two tests, which means it'll usually take him 10 hours to hand load 100 rounds of regular ammunition, and each 10 can get either +1 DV or -1 AP.
Extrapolating this to arrows is dead easy as far as my table is concerned. You break arrows into the same two categories (i.e. normal and special), and use all the same rules. If you want to make it more granular you could make it so that the arrow Rating comes into play, so make the interval (Rating * 3) minutes for the same general 30 minute interval for example.
Thus, a character wanting to craft 10x Rating 10 normal arrows needs 4 hits on an Extended Logic + Armorer (4, (10*3) minutes) test. Job's a good'n, no need to make it more complicated unless you as a GM feel it's warranted...
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See, that makes no sense to me...
The 2 reasons I hand load myself is
1: to get a more balanced expectation out of the ammo. (Important for target shooting and hunting.)
2: to save between 40 and 60% on the cost! Lets look at my last few purchases.
5000 44mag hollow points: $775
5000 primer caps: $350
10kg of high proformance powdee: $1350
5000 44mag brass: $800
Total cost: $3250
OR, $0.65 per round
Cost of a box of 44 mag slug (as you can't buy hollow point anymore) $65. OR $1.30 a round.
You better be getting a nice bonus in Hard Targets for that +10% surcharge....
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You do get a nice bonus... Either an additional +1 DV or an additional -1 AP. :)
May not be as good of a savings as the real world, but that ain't bad.
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And +1 DV is almost always the better option, as you'd need -3 AP for damage resistance rolls to average out over time.
I feel like the writers took the concept of wildcatted rounds and went with it, because as Reaver points out a lot of people hand load for the lower cost, not to make more powerful (and more dangerous to the shooter) rounds.
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But arrows? whole different ball of wax....
you have the heads, the shafts, the notch and the fletchings.... How much of that are you making versus just assembling? If you are just assembling from purchased materials (meaning you go buy a bunch of heads, shafts and fletchings and notches) then how much are you saving?
I know a long time bow-hunter (35 years and counting) who machines his own arrowheads, for all manner of targets and game.
They aren't the Titanium tipped, kinectic-barbed three-pronged devil heads of doom, or whatever over-engineered monstrosity your local sports stores are peddling, but he brings in healthy game with his own every autumn, and he's quite outspoken about how he isn't spending $10-$30 per head. Extrapolate that cost (with inflation) over as long as he's been doing that, and the grinder, lathe, and metal press don't seem like bad investments. (in addition to the other things you can do with them)
As for fletches and shafts, I'm a bit more familiar with in terms of commercial market, since I do target shooting and those are the things I'm most likely to break.
It's a good thing I use soft-body targets, because replacing the shafts would sting the pocketbook if I broke them more often.
Fletches are tricky, but quite doable by hand if you know how (again, the expert I know does his own; wish I saw him more often to learn how).
An especially tech savvy archer could design and 3D-print their own quite easily, and fairly cheaply. Each fletch might take time, but you can automate the process a bit with the correct model of printer.
As for making shafts yourself; uh...that'd require significant investments to say the least. :o
I don't even want to contemplate how you would approach constructing graphite shafts "from scratch" knowing what (little) I do about synthesizing graphite, and you likely know far better than me about shaping metal if you hand-load ammunition.
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I don't even want to contemplate how you would approach constructing graphite shafts "from scratch" knowing what (little) I do about synthesizing graphite, and you likely know far better than me about shaping metal if you hand-load ammunition.
You can order graphite shafts by custom length and thickness (although maybe only in standard measurement increments). So you can definitely get shafts of some quality, probably a lot more cheaply than as part of arrows. But I don't know if you get them to the close tolerances that you would want when shooting missiles and your life depends on it. Of course, it's likely that graphite manufacturing is better in Shadorun's universe, so perhaps it is more likely to be practical there.
In the end, though, I'm with Brackhaus... Shadowrun is a very high complexity system already. It gets ridiculous if you have to start worrying about how you're sourcing all of the raw materials when you're crafting custom items.
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Given my experience with archery (and the bow hunters I keep company with), I'd say most arrows of any feasible type would blunt, contort (irreversibly bend) or shatter on impact with anything harder than arid soil.
Factoring in the advancements in personal armor that Shadowrun has pushed, I'd call it a certainty.
In the long run, it'd probably be more financially beneficial for a dedicated archer character to be able to manufacture his/her own arrows; though at this time, I'm unsure how SR5 RAW handles that, if at all.
...unfortunately that is not permitted in Missions (this is a Missions character I am working on).
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Just going to throw my two cents in here about hand loading rounds for pistols (which I have done a LOT of).
To verify what previous posters have said:
1) The cost of reloading your own ammo is about 1/2 that of buying new. Keep in mind this is "reloading" and hence you are recovering the brass which is a siginificant part of the expense of a new round.
2) Using an "multi stage" press, which is different from a "single stage press", once you set everything up (cleaned brass, primers, auto powder measure) you can easily reload 5-10 rounds per minute. It sounds to me like the times in Hard Target are WAY off.
That being said, you can't really "reload" arrows. The best you could probably do is recover the shafts (with fletching), then maybe you have to replace shafts, fletching or heads on a per arrow basis.
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One thing to note about handloading ammunition; while real world equivalents are indeed about reloading, Shadowrunners in the 6th World will more than likely be using caseless ammunition. As such, hand loaded ammunition in Shadowrun is more likely to be about wildcatting rounds that it is about recovering spent... uh... plastic? I have no idea how you would recover anything to reuse from caseless rounds...