Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: condottiere on <07-01-16/0523:46>
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I tend to play humans or elves, but I thought playing a ShadowRun Ork might be interesting. To understand them, besides the obvious inner city ghettoization, and minority repression aspects, I tried calculating out their half-life life cycle, especially in regard to education:
Age
Two years old - Kindergarten
Three to eight years - Primary school
Nine to eleven years - Middle School
Twelve to fourteen years - High School
Fifteen to eighteen years - College/university
Nineteen to twenty two years - Medical school
In theory, an Ork would be emancipated at nine years, be eligible for retirement at thirty three. Since life expectancy fr Americans would be eighty four to eighty six, it would seem Orks physically deteriorate rapidly (four times human norm) after age thirty five.
I doubt that Orks would be quicker learners than humans, but I welcome any correction on my above assumptions.
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I recently posted about ork life expectancy in regards to taking Aged quality. Posted under rules, titled 50 in Ork Years.
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If an Ork's productive life starts at nine years old, he has twenty seven years before age thirty five, but that would be after graduating primary school. If you assume you need to graduate at least high school, life would start at age fifteen, and would provide twenty one years. Twenty years provide five terms of four years each.
Formative years would be to age eight instead of ten, though teen years would be from age seven onwards, in theory.
For Orks, further education could actually start with an optional middle school; you could put them on an accelerated program, though assuming their attention span is around human norm, not that many can take advantage of it. The same with college, it could be three years instead of four.
If an Ork wants to be come a licensed medical doctor, he'll only have thirteen years available to him to practice this profession, possibly more if he's in an accelerated programme.
For the Aged quality, it would staged at twenty five, thirty and thirty five years old, which would mean that at this late stage, you might as well be on borrowed time.
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This info is found mostly in 2e and 3e books.
Orks hit physical maturity at age 13. (Equal to a human of 25 years old). HOWEVER, they do not develop mentally at an increased rate. Meaning that 13 year old Ork has the mental facalties of a 13 year old.
The employment and educational systems do not take an Troll's or Ork's shorter lifespan into account. Meaning they attend school at the same ages as humans. (And given their mental growth, its doubtfull they could learn anything going to school earlier. A 2 year old is a 2 year old, is a 2 year old. Not matter if he physically the size of a 6 year old!)
what this means is, for many Orks, getting a highschool degree and then a college degree means over half their life span is spent in school. (Assuming finished degree at age 21/22). This gives an Ork a 'work life' of just 8 to 12 years!
At 8 to 12 years worked, one has not even worked the bare minimum to receive even a half pension for retirement! (A half pension usually comes after 15 to 18 years of work!)
What this means is, for Orks (and a lesser extent Trolls) is that the 'system' literally works against them! Knowledge dictates worth in a modern economy, and gaining that knowledge takes over half their life. Leaving them very little time to earn a living, if they can even find employment!
And that is the other issue. Even after gaoning their college degrees, their short working lives (8 to 12 years). Gives very little reason for a company to hire them, their contribution levels are subpar to their physical age. (At 22 years old, fresh out of college, they are equal physically to a human of 40/50 years old...)
It is for these reasons (and others) that Orks are more likely then others to skip out on education and go directly to the labour market.... which also hinders them thanks to age requirements. (Many states have a minimum age reqiurement for work to avoid child endangerment and abuse.)
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To sum up: Orks physically age faster then humans, but not mentally. The Laws do not take into account an Ork's increased growth rate, and are firmly set to the Human standards. Since the Laws do not take an Orks growth rate into account, Orks often are left maginalized and downtrodden living in poverty because their lifespans are so short. Due to the short life spans and Human centric laws, Orks often can not earn enough to improve their status, nor provide enough resources to even help their children raise out of poverty....
'Neo Anachrist guide to modern life' (2e) has more info if you are interested.
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I've met eight year olds that are wiser, possibly smarter, than some adults; since logic is capped at five, probably rare for Orks.
Since my belief is that majority for humans should be at least twenty one, possibly twenty four, it would appear that Orks would never be able to really catch up, but we also tend to shelter our kids far more than in Olden Times, where most of them served as cheap labour, and probably rapidly adapted to their environment.
A rather more disturbing example would be the recruitment of child soldiers, and in what can't be just limited to the favelas of Brazil, disposable gang enforcers.
I think that Ork kids grow up quickly, mentally and physically, but that education and experience would be bottlenecks.
You can fastrack college to three years, if they can maintain their focus; I don't know about primary and secondary, because half of the unwritten curriculum seems to be socialization.
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I think the life expectancy of Orks is not just that they age quicker.
First off, I think the natural life expectancy of a healthy Ork is probably about 4/5's that of human. (Trolls about 5/6)
If a Human could potentially hit 120+, I think an Ork could potentially hit 100. I don't think Orks are Mayflies, like some of the replies seem to suggest.
I imagine the discrimination and problems that face the Ork community make anything we see with the current problems faced by African Americans seem trivial. Violence is probably the number one contributing factor to the low life expectancy.
I think the second most contributing factor to lower Ork lifespan is nutrition, which more than likely is linked to poverty. It probably doesn't help that Ork mothers give birth to litters of children with each pregnancy.
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No, the extremely reduced lifespan of Orks is well established both in multiple rulebooks over multiple editions as well in multiple books of fiction.
And while crime, poverty and diet do play a part, even an ork born to a wealthy family, lives in a zero crime area, and eats the best food available will have a very hard time seeing 40, let alone 50.
Is it fair? Nope. But who said life was fair? Orks just do not live as long as humans. And remember, an ork is NOT a human. (Very closely related, granted, but not human).
They are Orks, an entirely different species in the Homo genus. They are bigger then humans, stronger and hardier then humans, have more and larger teeth then humans (36 compared to 32). But they are not green :P
(But apparently an off shoot is Red skinned as I recall)
And biologically they would have to be short lived given their reproductive cycle. (6 month pregnacy, births of 2 to 12, with 4 being the average...).
If they had a human life span and reproductive span. A single couple could produce 416 children! (2 birthings a year, 4 rugrats at a time from the age of 13 to 40).
Just how quickly to you think it would take for the world to reach overpopulation when 20% of the world population is Orks?
<well, if a single family could produce 400 kids during their reproductives lives (based on a human length reproductive cycle) it would only take 3 to 4 generations....>
Now compare that to what is actually published (furtility of 10 to 28 = 18 years) is 144 kids. But again with a much shorter lifespan, meaning overcrowding is less of an issue. (It'll still happen given the high birth rate, but take much longer).
But the bigger question: how many kids actually survive to childhood? THIS is where poverty, diet, and sanitation come in. Most Orks are dirt poor. (Laid out some the reasons up top), couple the poverty with a lack of social services, and the cost of food, lack of sanitation and I imagine the death rate of infants is high. A healthy human eats about 3 to 4 pounds of food each day. Orks being bigger mass would require a little more... 4 to 6 pounds a day? So to provide for a typical birthed family, a single time (meaning 4 kids) means to survive the family is consuming 24 to 36 pounds of food a day!
To an destitute family, that is one heck of an expense! And we havn't even covered clothing or housing....
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Retirement age is generally accepted to be sixty five for humans, though increased lifespan (and social security insecurity) has pushed it up in some places to sixty seven, and outside such consideration as opening up opportunities for the next generation, could well end up at seventy.
Which should basically be thirty five in Ork years. Or in our more generous times, thirty two and a half, and thirty three and a half.
Their physical robustness should allow them to continue to thirty five, compared to human workers, whose physical capacity to continue manual labour was one of the reasons for this programme.
Equal rights legislation would ensure that they would be allowed some time to enjoy the fruits of their labour before they shuffle off this mortal coil, though it's likely in less enlightened regimes, they'll be forced to work until they drop, which would be the harbinger that their physical body is about to fail.
If my assumption is correct, that after thirty five, Ork bodies age four times faster, by the time they reach forty, their bodies would be the equivalent of a ninety year old human's.
Gamewise, the important thing would be that between the ages of nine and thirty five Orks, would have potentially a productive life of twenty seven years, compared to a human's between eighteen and sixty seven of fifty years.
Pensions are to finance the desired lifestyle after retirement; health insurance for Orks after age thirty six would likely be astronomical.
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They may well not age the same way that humans do. Compared to most mammals humans live for a very long time after their prime breeding years (I've seen a theory that grandmothers helping to care for children, freeing update mothers to do more work, could be the evolutionary benefit to supporting so many non breeders). Perhaps orcs don't have that? That their life cycle is not wildly different than baseline humans, just accelerated modestly ... until middle age where they decline very rapidly and die at a very high rate. Which would also tend to lead them to work until near the end.
Also, in the shadow run world, I have to ask, what is this "retirement age" you speak of? Sure, some may save up enough to stop working and relax, but I doubt there is much if any government funding for the elderly, and few company pension plans!
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Depends on where you are in a company.
If all you do sweep floors for 30 years, I doubt your pension is very high. But if you are a middle manager, that's a different story.
And while SR is a dystopia, companies are companies, and need labour. To keep and recruit people, you have to offer something....
And THIS is where you get into the ultra murky world of Corp Culture. Every Corp has it, and every Corp flaunts it... Be it the 'Team work, consessious decision making, fluid leadership style" of Horizion, the "Corp, family, world view, coupled with Personal responsibilty and direct leadership" of Renraku, or the "we are all God's creatures, embrace the dirvesity" of Evo.
It is Corp Culture that allows Aztec employees to get prescription Nova Coke from the Corp Pharmacy. (Cause people gotta relax, man!). Or the 'recreational attendents' of Wuxing (aka prostitutes).
Many AA and AAA corps run their own housing complexes, restaurants, shops and stores. (And some companies only pay their staff in Corp Script, ensuring that the paycheck can only be spent in their stores!)
Corporate Diwnload, Coporate Guide and others go into the whole Corp Culture much more deeply, and as I recall CD goes into the perks an average employee enjoys working with each company. (Some are amusing, some are down right horrific in their implications)
Good reads if you are interested.
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I've heard of the grandmother theory, as well. I think that the guys think they form the local think tank and database.
Aging could accelerate once you hit thirty five, for example:
Ages
Range Increase Human
35-36 3 70-72
36-37 4 73-76
37-38 5 77-81
38-39 6 82-87
40-41 7 88-84
41-42 8 85-92
42-43 9 93-101
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Some points below, meant to further discussion since I am enjoying it.
If we are defining human as "homo sapiens" then orks are indeed human. Metatypes have been subspecies of homo sapiens since at least since 2nd Edition. (I don't have 1E so I can't reference it.) Now some of this is semantics, and in the Sixth World the colloquial use of "human" is homo sapiens sapiens, but saying that the other metatypes aren't "human" doesn't fit with the (fictional) scientific taxonomy.
Here's a quick table of ork and human life expectancy by edition.
| Edition | Orks | Humans |
| 2nd | 35 to 40 | 55 |
| 3rd | 35 to 40 | 55 |
| 4th | 35 to 45 | 55 |
| 5yh | not provided | not provided |
For reference, the current global life expectancy - averaging out between men and women, and different regions - is 71.4 years, according to the World Health Organization. Having a life expectancy of 55 years (which is the steady value provided for humans across multiple editions) is the equivalent of modern day Somalia and Nigeria. Living in the Sixth World is hard; dying is easy.
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| Edition | Orks | Humans |
| 5yh | not provided | not provided |
It is provided, right in the core page 380 (NON-PLAYER CHARACTERS chapter). Human average lifespan is 55-65 years and Ork is 35-45. So the same as in 4th.
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You have life expectancy and life span.
As I recall, I think it was Zimbabwe at the height of the AIDS epidemic, had an average male life expectancy of thirty five.
For humans, fifty five indicates a lot of premature terminations, whether due to too much cholesterol, environmental pollution, or lead poisoning.
It's hard to credit that their tough physiques deteriorate that fast, but it could be a general or overall breakdown, including Alzheimer's.
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Think of it as accerated aging. They mature much faster, and die much faster.
But basically, its just their life cycle. End of story.
Horses are physically stronger then humans, and larger, but only live 20-30 years (and 30 is old for a horse!).
Moose and Elk live 18 to 25 years. Caribou for about 14. (Hence part of the reason they are on decline in parts of NA, especially in areas of BC)
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Orks multiply like bunnies; they'd need natural predators.
I would like to establish when they are expected to join the rat race, which unless you have that college interlude, I'd put at eighteen for humans, and nine for Orks, when is retirement age, when can they draw a pension.
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you are forgetting that its a "human" centric world :P
What are the labour laws for your area? (a simple google search will tell you.) Well, those laws haven't really changed. To give you an example, this is the BC labour laws for hiring children:
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Hiring children
9 (1) A person must not employ a child under 15 years of age unless the person has obtained the written consent of the child's parent or guardian.
(2) A person must not employ a child under 12 years of age without the director's permission.
(3) On permitting the employment of a child under 12 years of age, the director may set the conditions of employment for the child.
(4) An employer must comply with the conditions of employment set under subsection (3)."
http://www.bclaws.ca/Recon/document/ID/freeside/00_96113_01
So by BC law, my company can not hire anyone less than 15 years of age, unless we have a note their parents. (not an issue)
If they are under 12 years of age, I have to contact the Ministry for Family Services, and receive a WRITTEN permission from the Director's office to employ them (Good luck! Takes about 3 to 5 months when I tried to get my daughter a part time job in the office for the summer I had her). And even then, they can set such random shit, it's pointless.In my daughter's case, she was only allowed to work 2 hours a day to a max of 10 hours a week. Could not start before 10am and could not work past 6pm.
Now, how does this tie into SR?
Easy, many of these laws are still in place in SR, and while some people are fighting to change it, there are so many groups with much bigger pockets and much more clout that are resisting the changes. (Humanis Policlub is a BIG one in this field, and remember, they are a political party - they actually have people IN the government!)
And remember, just because at 9 years old, an ork has the mass of a 18 yr old human, they still have the mental capacity of a 9 year old. How many 9 year olds you know that have the responsibility and maturity to actually hold a job that isn't delivering newspapers?
When is retirement age? 65 same as it has always been. (or if you buy into the those 'freedom 55' commercials, 55. Yet every single person I know who signed up for it, are still working in their 60s.....)
Pensions run off of time worked with a company that offers them. Usually requiring 25 to 35 years of service to collect the Full amount, which the possibility to collect a partial amount usually after 15+ years worked. (varies)
(check with your employer, when do you get the full amount or a partial amount?)
So what does this mean for Orks? They get the screw-over. They'll die of old age before retirement, and they can't work long enough to even get a partial pension. You are not getting a job that offers a pension without education, which means completing high-school and getting a degree. Remember, Unions were effectively Crushed out between 1997 with the Trucker Strike in NYC which lead to hundreds dying, the rise of the Mega-corps and Extraterritorality agreements.
Starting to see why Orks are the primary residents of Barrens and low income areas?
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I believe there is an exception for family run businesses, and may include close relatives, not just your own children.
But I don't think most Ork teenagers want to be carrot farmers.
If they can't find work legally, and if they are underage, this may seem the perfect favela scenario, where you have easily led enforcers who are big as a house, and get sent to juvie if they're caught, and can't get the death penalty for more extreme crimes; possibly, early release.
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I believe there is an exception for family run businesses, and may include close relatives, not just your own children.
But I don't think most Ork teenagers want to be carrot farmers.
If they can't find work legally, and if they are underage, this may seem the perfect favela scenario, where you have easily led enforcers who are big as a house, and get sent to juvie if they're caught, and can't get the death penalty for more extreme crimes; possibly, early release.
There could be a family exception in some areas, as every state and province in NA has their own labor laws. (There is no exception in BC. Under 12? Need the ministry's approval.) I know Alberta has a 'traditional work' clause that is aimed at farming families... until the NDP just about fucked that up epically.
Probably right about the favela effect. Orks are bigger and stronger then humans, so they make excellent muscle. And lets face it, when you are so marginalized, and the deck is stacked against you badly, crime really does seem like the best option for many in that situation...
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Leaving aside humans, with elves, you can push the age of majority way into the future, since they will have plenty of time to admire close up the grindstone when they have to put their nose on it.
With Orks, you're going to have two issues, age of majority, and age of responsibility.
If a nine year old Ork killed two policemen during the course of an armed robbery, should he be tried as an adult? Is he responsible for his actions? Will he be jailed in an adult penitentiary? Will he be given the death sentence, assuming it's an option, or life without parole? Will there be an attempt at rehabilitation?
It's mentioned that matriarchies are a big component in Ork society, since a considerable proportion of the fathers spend an inordinate amount of time locked up.
Do you adjust lifetime sentences for Orks?
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Drink alcohol – 21
Drive a car (with a license) – 16 in most states
Serve in the military – 18
Attend school (upper required limit) – 16
See R-rated movies – 17
Consent to sex – 16 in most states
Get married (without parental consent) – 18 in most states
Get an abortion (without parental consent) – 18 in many states
Make personal finance decisions – 18
Rent a car – 25
I doubt many Orks will abstain or wait until they're twenty one to drink alcohol.
Joyriding is very likely a popular Orkish pastime.
A military career would serve both sides, the Orks get a disciplined environment where they are permitted, even encouraged, to commit controlled violence, and the military doesn't have to pay out a pension for very long. They might not be allowed to drive automobiles when off duty, but tht's probably not an issue at other times.
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I wish I could remember the book (WAR! I think) that talks about the Aztlan soldier breeding program...
Basically, they were offering rewards to women who would agree to be artificially insemenated and then turn the child over to the state. Amazingly, a super high percentage were Orks. Why? Because of an Ork increased strength and endurance, and their decreased lifespan!
They wanted a throw away army that they would never had to worry about the long term care of...
And as to the legal ages you listed, those probably are still on the books. And probably still enforced. As I have been trying to tell you repeatedly, the laws HAVE NOT changed to reflect an Ork's increased growth rate.
Is it fair? No. But it is still the law. And everytime an Ork is caught breaking those Laws, there is racist organization waiting to point a finger and say "See? They are all criminals! They don't respect the law!"
Laws don't change themselves. They take the Will of Government to change. Followed by several rounds of voting and debate by the various levels and chambers of government. And all it takes is for a single lost vote at any one level of government to kill it.
For example, under the Canadain Parlement the steps are.
1: proposal by a single MP.
2: must be seconded in the house of Commons.
3: a debate is then opened.
4: a draft is written.
5: draft is voted on and debated.
6: law is written.
7: law is read and appoved by vote in the house of Commons.
8: The Senate now votes to accept or defeat.
9: is Approved, the law is passed to the Prime Minister's Office for offical signing.
10: A single Constitutional challenge can be brought forth by anyone (including a private citizen) and the supreme Court of Canada will/can weigh in and strike the Bill, forcing Parlement to scrape, rewrite, or invoke a 'Decree' (basically, Parlement over-rides the constitution and enshrines into law, against our living Law of Rights and Freedoms <Canadian Constitution equivilant>. And has happened twice in the formation of our Country. The first was the FLQ terrorist crisis of the 1970s and then again in 1986 for the Goods and Services Tax).
A single failed vote in any of those 10 steps kills a Bill/Law or amendment to a law. And believe it or not, the US system is even more complex, which more avenues for defeat.
And lets face it, in SR, governments have had a lot more on their plate then to figure out if and what changes should be made for Orks.... Let alone the fact that there is a large vocal and powerful people how actively seek to NOT allow changes that aid the meta-human condition.
And yet again, just cause an Ork ages physically faster, there is no accelerated mental growth. Again, even though an Ork of 10 years of age is PHYSICALLY the size of a grown human, MENTALLY they are still a 10 year. EMOTIONALLY they are a 10 year old.
Do you think you 10 year old child should:
1: Have a legal right to get shitfaced, AND face the lefal consiquences of their intoxicated actions?
2: have the legal right and tesponsibility to operate a motor vehicle?
3: Go off to war, be maimed killed, mutilated or killed, and to kill, maim, and mutilate an other?
4: constent to a sexual relationship.
5: making imporant finacisl decisions
Because that is what you are saying. You are saying you have NO problem with your child doing these things, and LACKING the protections the laws give to children....
Think HARD before you reply.
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I do not approve of that last post. Keep it civil you dolt.
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Trust me. That WAS civil.
But if you preferr, I could use language I DO generally use for people who seem to be willfully continously missing a point and refuses to address that point.
A simple search of my post history, or asking some old time members will tell you the shit storm I am fully willing to unleash....
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As I shipped from first to fifth, and neither of them talked about such age laws that's I can recall, can you point me to where it has been confirmed that nothing has been changed? (I'm willing to believe people could be that stupid, but it is certainly one of those things that stretches my suspension of disbelief somewhat, so would like to understand better what has been said in official material).
Also, there's is no reason to assume that mental maturation is at human rate. Orcs could be ahead of human kids in terms of mental maturity during younger years, but not, on average, develop the same depth during that faster development.
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Neo-anarchist's guide to modern life has some info.
SR: beyond the shadows also has some small info.
SR campanion also has some.
Shadowbeat as a small entry.
Neo anarchist's guide to north America. Has some info.
And then you can also pick up some info from all the Seattle sourcebooks (3? 4 of them? Lost count)
And the 6th world alminac.
Not to mention the Lone Star book, which was filled with rules, laws, punishments, fines, and racism. And info on Lone Star naturally.
That's your starting reading list for sourcebooks.
From there you turn to novels, and there are so many examples there mixed into the writing... just pick up any novel and you will examples if you look for them.
Or, you could try looking for the group M.o.M and follow their activities in the source books for their fight for equality. (M.o.M stands for Mothers of Metahumans. An advocate group for equality of metahumans).
The long and short of it is, you have dozens of entries in dozens of books to look at and pick through, as the information is spread out and all over the history of SR. Which makes it hard for anyone to point a single page or passage in any single book to prove or refute anything.
Such is the problem with any franchise with a living history :(
(Look at D&D realms of Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms, or Dragonlance settings. Look at some SJG or white wolf games...)
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The human mind only fully physically matures by age twenty five, which personal experience tends to indicate is true. You could be generous and say this occurs for Orks at age twelve.
This is effected by native intelligence, education and experience. Smart alecky kids are littered through out the television landscape, though they have to be prodigies to take advantage of their (advanced) educations. You also tend to need actual experience (or virtual) in order to have a perspective on likely consequences to actions.
There are two famous examples of accelerated aging to force grow soldiers/warriors, Star Wars Clone Troopers, and what seems explicitly shown in the Lord of the Rings trilogy for the Uruk-hai.
Educationwise, they could fast track to (not through) college with sports scholarships, and then turn pro. Or maybe, just turn pro. Their parents can then manage or supervise their careers, which means they'll be close by if anything needs to be contractually signed or requires parental permission.
But in most other situations, this seems unlikely, as they'll be busy holding down a job as well. So if you have the money to splurge in a club, or need to rent a car, the market for fake identity papers for Orks must be quite lucrative, and bouncers and the reception clerk could state that they all look the same to them.
I recall World of Darkness having Vampires, Mages, Werewolves, Mages, Ghosts, Mummies and Hunters; don't remember seeing Orc(k)s.
Criminal liability tends to be only from ages seven onwards, and even then, it tends to have limitations until age eighteen. At age ten, normal kids should understand the consequences of murder.
The issue seems to be matching the ages of majority, responsibility and maturity for a species that grows twice as fast as humans.