Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: RowanTheFox on <09-01-16/0838:23>
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In the adventure Harlequin, the mad elf himself says "Before he so callously abandoned you as a child, or rather allowed you to be abandoned following your lovely mother's untimely demise, he placed a powerful spell lock on you."
So, what the heck happened to Frosty's mother?
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Who was Frosty's mom anyways?
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So, what the heck happened to Frosty's mother?
She died.
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(http://memestorage.com/_nw/39/35618455.jpg)
On a semi-related not, I've just noticed that there's a Foster, J. listed among the Princes of Tir Tairngire in Storm Front. Is it actually Jane?
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On a semi-related not, I've just noticed that there's a Foster, J. listed among the Princes of Tir Tairngire in Storm Front. Is it actually Jane?
Nope, that would be Jake Foster, an ork.
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Who was Frosty's mom anyways?
No idea, Harlequin's comment is literally the ONLY mention of her in lore. I get the feeling he knew her, though.
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On a semi-related not, I've just noticed that there's a Foster, J. listed among the Princes of Tir Tairngire in Storm Front. Is it actually Jane?
Nope, that would be Jake Foster, an ork.
Thanks for the clarification. :)
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On a semi-related not, I've just noticed that there's a Foster, J. listed among the Princes of Tir Tairngire in Storm Front. Is it actually Jane?
Nope, that would be Jake Foster, an ork.
Thanks for the clarification. :)
Wonder if there is any relation?
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That would have been a too cruel a fate for harlequin if she was related to him. but if she was a lost love it also would explain why he and Ehran constantly butt heads. Is any of Ehran's wives actually mentioned anywhere?
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That would have been a too cruel a fate for harlequin if she was related to him. but if she was a lost love it also would explain why he and Ehran constantly butt heads. Is any of Ehran's wives actually mentioned anywhere?
I love to joke that the duels between those two were caused by a lover's spat. A love triangle adds a whole new level to it.
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Because the immortality gene is recessive, it means that Frosty's mom must have been an Immortal Elf too.
She first appears in the Harlequin Adventure, right? She must have been like early 20-something in 2050 or so right? And it can be assumed that Frosty's mom was alive around the time of her birth, so she must have died in the 2030's, probably in the CAS. All of which are kind of weird, because Ehran was busy founding Tir Tairngire at the time. Frosty's mom must not have believed in the whole reviving the elf nation thing.
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Because the immortality gene is recessive, it means that Frosty's mom must have been an Immortal Elf too.
She first appears in the Harlequin Adventure, right? She must have been like early 20-something in 2050 or so right? And it can be assumed that Frosty's mom was alive around the time of her birth, so she must have died in the 2030's, probably in the CAS. All of which are kind of weird, because Ehran was busy founding Tir Tairngire at the time. Frosty's mom must not have believed in the whole reviving the elf nation thing.
That depends on whether the immortality gene is autosomal recessive or X-linked recessive. If it's autosomal recessive, both parents have to carry the gene for it to express in the offspring. If it's X-linked, then only one parent has to carry it, but will only express in males. The exception to this is if both parents carry the gene, causing female offspring to inherit two copies of the gene.
If it's an X-linked recessive gene, Frosty's mother wouldn't need to be an immortal, she would only need to carry the gene in one of her X chromosomes.
Genetics is fun.
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Is there actually info given about an "immortal elf gene", or did you just make that up?
What I'm getting at is this:
Is Frosty considered an Immortal Elf, just because the other IE say she's one (being Ehran's daughter), or is there some objective proof that you could check if someone is?
Since we still don't know the lifespan of an Elf, is it possible that they're all Immortal (aka don't die of old age), but those we call IE are the only ones that survived the 5th age, while others didn't (for whatever reason)?
I'm sure that's been discussed ad nauseam, but it's something that just popped into my head.
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Is there actually info given about an "immortal elf gene", or did you just make that up?
What I'm getting at is this:
Is Frosty considered an Immortal Elf, just because the other IE say she's one (being Ehran's daughter), or is there some objective proof that you could check if someone is?
Since we still don't know the lifespan of an Elf, is it possible that they're all Immortal (aka don't die of old age), but those we call IE are the only ones that survived the 5th age, while others didn't (for whatever reason)?
I'm sure that's been discussed ad nauseam, but it's something that just popped into my head.
That's how actual recessive gene inheritance works IRL. As far as all of them being immortal? Who knows?
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Since we still don't know the lifespan of an Elf
Two or three centuries at least, according to Earthdawn.
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To the genetics: I only remember that the genetics of immortality were discussed in Tir Tairngire, the so-called "stopwatch complex".
Because the immortality gene is recessive, it means that Frosty's mom must have been an Immortal Elf too.
Where is it stated that there is an "immortality gene" and it's recessive?
Anyway if it is recessive, then her mother does _not_ have to be an immortal elf. If an allele of a gene is recessive it will not (or mostly not) be expressed unless the allele is present on both chromosomes, otherwise its expression is suppressed (it is dominated) by the other allele. So there are individuals that can pass the recessive allele on, though its effects are not visible in their phenotype.
What I'm getting at is this:
Is Frosty considered an Immortal Elf, just because the other IE say she's one (being Ehran's daughter), or is there some objective proof that you could check if someone is?
Since we still don't know the lifespan of an Elf, is it possible that they're all Immortal (aka don't die of old age), but those we call IE are the only ones that survived the 5th age, while others didn't (for whatever reason)?
I think Frosty gets counted because Ehran singled her out in his monitoring of what was probably offspring of immortals (maybe only his own). All the monitoring had been terminated at some point between 14 months and 40 years ago (from 2050), after the individual under observation had shown a serious illness or had reached an age of around 40. Only Frosty's information had been deleted to obscure it.
In Earthdawn there was a magical way of identifying immortals (dragonkin) and there may be a scientific method that was employed in this montoring too.
400 years as the maximum in Earthdawn, the scientific estimate in Shadowrun is several hundred years. So, indeed we can be only sure about those elves that are known to have been born before that. I don't think we even know that for Ehran.
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To the genetics: I only remember that the genetics of immortality were discussed in Tir Tairngire, the so-called "stopwatch complex".
Because the immortality gene is recessive, it means that Frosty's mom must have been an Immortal Elf too.
Where is it stated that there is an "immortality gene" and it's recessive?
Anyway if it is recessive, then her mother does _not_ have to be an immortal elf. If an allele of a gene is recessive it will not (or mostly not) be expressed unless the allele is present on both chromosomes, otherwise its expression is suppressed (it is dominated) by the other allele. So there are individuals that can pass the recessive allele on, though its effects are not visible in their phenotype.
Hell, both parents can carry a recessive gene without it expressing in either one of them. If both parents are unaffected carriers (i.e. they only have one copy of the gene), there's a 25% chance of the offspring inheriting both copies and being effected, a 50% chance of inheriting only one copy and becoming an unaffected carrier, and a 25% chance of not inheriting either copy at all.
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What you're forgetting is that Magic makes real life genetic science go sit at the kids' table, while the grownups talk.
Immortal Elves are the children of a pairing between a Dragon and an Elf. I believe Earthdawn, back when it was under the same company as Shadowrun, stated that the immortality remained to the second or third generation from the dragon parent. In other words, Ehran is the kid of a dragon, and Frosty, as the second generation from the dragon, would be immortal, too. But Frosty's kids, if she has any, may or may not be immortal, depending.
And for various reasons that neither Dragons or Immortal Elves like to talk about, Dragon-Elf mating is a big no-no.
Now, what does that have to do with Frosty's mom? Absolutely nothing. As far as we know, Frosty's mom is not an IE, but AFAIK she wouldn't be mentioned anywhere except, perhaps, the original Harlequin module.
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What you're forgetting is that Magic makes real life genetic science go sit at the kids' table, while the grownups talk.
Immortal Elves are the children of a pairing between a Dragon and an Elf. I believe Earthdawn, back when it was under the same company as Shadowrun, stated that the immortality remained to the second or third generation from the dragon parent. In other words, Ehran is the kid of a dragon, and Frosty, as the second generation from the dragon, would be immortal, too. But Frosty's kids, if she has any, may or may not be immortal, depending.
And for various reasons that neither Dragons or Immortal Elves like to talk about, Dragon-Elf mating is a big no-no.
Now, what does that have to do with Frosty's mom? Absolutely nothing. As far as we know, Frosty's mom is not an IE, but AFAIK she wouldn't be mentioned anywhere except, perhaps, the original Harlequin module.
I knew about the dragon/elf thing, and admittedly the thread got a tad off track with the genetics thing. I would definitely like to see something at some point that explains who Frosty's mom is. I mean, give the poor woman a name, at least! I think she deserves at least that much after dealing with Ehran.
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What you're forgetting is that Magic makes real life genetic science go sit at the kids' table, while the grownups talk.
Immortal Elves are the children of a pairing between a Dragon and an Elf. I believe Earthdawn, back when it was under the same company as Shadowrun, stated that the immortality remained to the second or third generation from the dragon parent. In other words, Ehran is the kid of a dragon, and Frosty, as the second generation from the dragon, would be immortal, too. But Frosty's kids, if she has any, may or may not be immortal, depending.
Do you have a source for that statement about immortality and generations because i've never come across that? It would surprise me a lot if that was true because i've never thought of any of the current living IE's as having a direct dragon parent with the possible exception of Alachia. Why? Because we know that Aina and Aithne didn't have that, and Harlequin and Ehran never seemed that much older than those two, which Means that they are all from a time before the scourge in the ED timeline but not a terribly long time before the scourge. At that time the ban on dragons mating with namegivers had already been in effect for a long time. If you read what Vasdenjas says about it in the ED dragons book ( and also what he says between the lines ) then that ban was enforced probably in either the 2nd age or very early 4th age and the reason for the ban was that the elven dragonkin rebelled aginst their draconic ancestors ( read what Alamaise claimed when he attacked queen Dallia in transit to Shosara ), which led to dunkie and especially ghostwalker coming up with the drakes, which were considered much more reliable and less prone to rebellion.
And for various reasons that neither Dragons or Immortal Elves like to talk about, Dragon-Elf mating is a big no-no.
Not just dragon- elf mating, any dragon-namegiver mating, which is why Denairastas was outcast as he broke the ban. I always thought that they had an unspoken agreement to not bring it up as it would most certainly incite bad feeling on both parts and risk enflaming the conflict Again.
Now, what does that have to do with Frosty's mom? Absolutely nothing. As far as we know, Frosty's mom is not an IE, but AFAIK she wouldn't be mentioned anywhere except, perhaps, the original Harlequin module.
Actually i always thought of Frosty's mom as being human. First of all it is mentioned several Places that Frosty looks uncommonly human for an elf and second she is so old, that if Ehran were to have fathered her with another elf, then it would either have been an IE or a very very Young elf woman, tbh i don't see him as the type to go cradle robbing, thats more Harleys style :o :o
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From Dragons (http://earthdawn.wikia.com/wiki/Source:Dragons_PDF), Game Information:
Dragon-kin are Name-givers born of or descended from the mating of a Name-giver and a dragon in Name-giver form. They have certain unique abilities as a result of their heritage. Without careful breeding and a regular infusion of dragon-blood, most families of dragon-kin become ordinary Name-givers after many generations as the dragon blood is slowly diluted.
So it's more than two generations. Also I don't think it is established that dragon-kin are immortal.
Now, the head of the other acknowledged family of dragon-kin
Aside from the great dragons' original servants, the Denairastas Clan are the only known living dragon-kin in Barsaive,
is said to be long-living. But I think the implication in Secret Socities of Barsaive is that might be due to the help of the Great Dragon Denairastas.
There is probably something else going on with the immortal elf line. For example there is also no indication that they show the traits associated with "normal" dragon-kin:
Dragon-kin all have at least one physical deformity or trait tied to their dragon blood, sometimes more than one. Common traits include scaly patches of skin, pointed ears, oddly colored eyes, eyes that feature slitted pupils, or eyes that lack pupils altogether. Other traits include webbed fingers and/or toes, a vestigial tail or wings, small horns, pronounced canine teeth, a complete lack of body hair, or bony deposits on the skin similar to heavy scales.
Finally, the genetics could be relevant. If there is actually something about a "recessive immortality gene" in the sources as claimed.
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The 'normal' Dragon-kin were the Denairastas clan of Iopos, who were the children of Denairastas, the Outcast, a Great Dragon who was exiled from dragon culture for, well, knocking up Name-givers to have their children be his personal army.
The Immortal Elves are mostly from the Second Age, IIRC, as they had already long separated from their dragon masters prior to Alamais being a dick to the Elves of Wyrmwood long, long before the Scourge.
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Actually i always thought of Frosty's mom as being human. First of all it is mentioned several Places that Frosty looks uncommonly human for an elf and second she is so old, that if Ehran were to have fathered her with another elf, then it would either have been an IE or a very very Young elf woman, tbh i don't see him as the type to go cradle robbing, thats more Harleys style :o :o
Unless Frosty's mother was a spike baby, which is also a possibility.
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The Immortal Elves are mostly from the Second Age, IIRC, as they had already long separated from their dragon masters prior to Alamais being a dick to the Elves of Wyrmwood long, long before the Scourge.
The first IE's certainly, but i doubt that any of the ones we know are actually from the 2nd age with the possible exception of Alachia, WHO has always seemed somewhat older than the others. I'm pretty sure that the others are from the 4th age, from before the scourge yes, but none of them actually seem like they have experienced it before or have any particular knowledge of it before it happens. I know a lot of this is conjecture, but we "know" from Caroline spector that Aina and Aithne are from the 4th World and Ehran and Harley doesn't seem much older than those two tbh, neither does Jenna. It is possible that older ones exist but they have not been named so far, Again with the possible exception of Alachia, whom i view as being from the 2nd World but after the scourge there.
On a side note, i always had the feeling that "The first Elf" myth about Caynreth is actually probably the first IE.
Oh and in what Lokii quoted it says that "most dragonkin" have their blood diluted over time. I have a hunch that the elven variety is the reason why its "most" as it doesn't happen to them. And yeah it's probably due to genetics or some thing.
Actually i always thought of Frosty's mom as being human. First of all it is mentioned several Places that Frosty looks uncommonly human for an elf and second she is so old, that if Ehran were to have fathered her with another elf, then it would either have been an IE or a very very Young elf woman, tbh i don't see him as the type to go cradle robbing, thats more Harleys style :o :o
Unless Frosty's mother was a spike baby, which is also a possibility.
Absolutely, but that doesn't explain why she looks uncommonly human for an elf.
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The Immortal Elves are mostly from the Second Age, IIRC, as they had already long separated from their dragon masters prior to Alamais being a dick to the Elves of Wyrmwood long, long before the Scourge.
The first IE's certainly, but i doubt that any of the ones we know are actually from the 2nd age with the possible exception of Alachia, WHO has always seemed somewhat older than the others. I'm pretty sure that the others are from the 4th age, from before the scourge yes, but none of them actually seem like they have experienced it before or have any particular knowledge of it before it happens. I know a lot of this is conjecture, but we "know" from Caroline spector that Aina and Aithne are from the 4th World and Ehran and Harley doesn't seem much older than those two tbh, neither does Jenna. It is possible that older ones exist but they have not been named so far, Again with the possible exception of Alachia, whom i view as being from the 2nd World but after the scourge there.
On a side note, i always had the feeling that "The first Elf" myth about Caynreth is actually probably the first IE.
Oh and in what Lokii quoted it says that "most dragonkin" have their blood diluted over time. I have a hunch that the elven variety is the reason why its "most" as it doesn't happen to them. And yeah it's probably due to genetics or some thing.
Actually i always thought of Frosty's mom as being human. First of all it is mentioned several Places that Frosty looks uncommonly human for an elf and second she is so old, that if Ehran were to have fathered her with another elf, then it would either have been an IE or a very very Young elf woman, tbh i don't see him as the type to go cradle robbing, thats more Harleys style :o :o
Unless Frosty's mother was a spike baby, which is also a possibility.
Absolutely, but that doesn't explain why she looks uncommonly human for an elf.
Might have something to do with being born when the mana levels were comparatively low? Or perhaps she developed in-utero in a low mana area?
Or maybe Frosty's mom was a prostitute, and Harlequin's comment about her mom being "lovely" was sarcastic?
There are so many possibilities, and it's why I'm a little irked that the story behind Frosty's mom was never explained any further.
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Small addition:
First, the game information section in Threats, p. 58:
Less than 25 immortal elves are known to exist, and none have been born since the Awakening.
Frosty has shadowtalk in the chapter, so I don't think they forgot about her. I think she was in her twenties at the time of the Harlequin campaign, so according to this she wouldn't be an immortal elf.
Compare to Harlequin's Back, p. 148:
She carries her father's immortality trait, though Harlequin has not yet told her this.
Also Threats mentions an "immortality gene that is triggered by the rise of the world's mana level" and that the Seelie Court and the Council of Princes have a genetic test for it, though here it says "allegedly". It further says the "gene may lie dormant in an elf, so theoretically several other 'unawakened' immortal elves may exist" and I guess that's why Frosty is not yet counted as an immortal elf.
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There's an easier explanation:
The official position on Frosty being an immortal elf could have changed at some point in the 20 years since Threats was published.
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There's an easier explanation:
The official position on Frosty being an immortal elf changed. Threats was published 20 years ago by a different company under a different line developer. As far as retcons go, there have been both more and less overt ones than this.
Immortal or not, I still don't know who her mother was or what happened to her. The two people in the SR universe who could answer that question aren't talking. Damn them...
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There's an easier explanation:
The official position on Frosty being an immortal elf could have changed at some point in the 20 years since Threats was published.
Harlequin's Back is from 1994 though, Threats 1996. So changed from immortal to mortal back to immortal?
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Yeah, as for OP's question: It's never been answered.
There's an easier explanation:
The official position on Frosty being an immortal elf could have changed at some point in the 20 years since Threats was published.
Harlequin's Back is from 1994 though, Threats 1996. So changed from immortal to mortal back to immortal?
Eh ... It happens.
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Inconsistency is of course always a possibility. But since they made the effort of introducing a distinction between carrying the "immortality gene" and being immortal and also mentioned Frosty I think that's also a possible explanation for her status.
Something else, "triggered by the rise of the world's mana level" seems to imply offspring of immortal elves born during the Fifth World (or most of that time span anyway) is out of luck. Except if you can be "activated" by a mana spike / place of power.
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Yeah, as for OP's question: It's never been answered.
There's an easier explanation:
The official position on Frosty being an immortal elf could have changed at some point in the 20 years since Threats was published.
Harlequin's Back is from 1994 though, Threats 1996. So changed from immortal to mortal back to immortal?
Eh ... It happens.
Since Hard Exit has been labeled as both Male and Female in the books (by different writers), it is certainly true that, when you have multiple writers working on multiple projects across multiple plotlines in multiple years, you have the chance for errors to pop up, and not get noticed by editors.