Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: DeathStrobe on <09-11-16/1718:58>
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I've talked about this topic a few times. 1 (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=13611.0), 2 (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=16537.0), 3 (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=17843.msg314940#msg314940)
My ultimate conclusion is to usually just let people do whatever they want and screw RAI. But I'm back at worrying about weapon modding rules in Omae2 (http://heyomae.github.io/), so I figured I'd see about getting some input before I give up and let people do whatever madness they want to do.
Here is the problem
SR5 p417
Mounts: There are several places where a weapon accessory can be attached to a firearm: underbarrel, barrel, or top-mount. Only one accessory can be attached to a particular mount. Integral accessories (those that come with the weapon) don’t take up mount locations. Hold-outs don’t have mounts. Pistols, machine pistols, and SMGs do not have an underbarrel mount, just top and barrel mounts. All rifles and heavy weapons have all three types of mounts. Projectile weapons can only take accessories designed for them specifically.
R&G p50
Let’s start with the basics of how you’re going to add stuff to your weapon. When you want to add something to your weapon, it’s going to go into one of six places. 1) One top of the weapon; 2) Underneath the barrel of a weapon; 3) On the side of a weapon; 4) Internal to the weapon, meaning it is built into the weapon and integral to its systems; 5) Replacing or adding to the barrel; 6) Replacing or adding to the stock.
First, the redefinition of integral in Run & Gun means that if a mod in core doesn't go in to a specific spot, like the internal smartgun system, it now goes in to an internal slot called integral.
So, lets say, hypothetically, that all mods are actually suppose to fit in to one of the 6 slots from Run & Gun. One of the most problematic guns is the Ingram Smartgun X.
SR5 p427
Ingram Smartgun X: Grade-A bang bang. Famous as the weapon of choice for many legendary street samurai since the 2050s, the Ingram Smartgun comes tricked out with a gas-vent 2 system, a smartgun system, and an integral sound suppressor.
The silencer is said to be integral, which may imply it goes in the new internal slot. The gas-vent system clearly has to be on the barrel, and then the smartgun system has to go on the top slot. SMGs are not allowed to take under barrel accessories, so that means you can still mod the Ingram with side and stock slots.
But the real question is, is this rules as intended? Or is the other extreme what's intended and all systems that are a part of a gun don't eat up a slot.
So that means the barrel, internal, stock, top, and side slots are all open. This means we can add Advanced safety system to the internal, scope on top, gas vent 3 on the barrel (for a total of -5 RC because it comes with gas vent 2), flashlight on the side, gecko grip on the stock. So to me, that basically sounds kind of insane to me, and is probably not RAI.
Even more problematic however is the Hard Target mods, which do not say where they go. Lets take a look at 2 mods that are suppose to work together, electronic firing and trigger removal.
HT p180
With this modification, most of the weapon’s moving parts are removed so that it can fire electronically, meaning that an electrical signal detonates the bullet’s propellant. This provides 1 point of recoil compensation and a –1 dice pool modifier to sound-based Perception Tests when trying to locate where the weapon is being fired from. Electronic firing is usually combined with trigger removal (see p. 182) to further reduce the number of moving parts, but this is not mandatory. The weapon still includes a loading mechanism that moves the bullet into the chamber, and it requires caseless ammunition.
HT p182
Sometimes the time it takes to move a finger is too long. Sometimes the pressure of squeezing a trigger is enough to throw off the precision of a long range shot. This is the modification for those times. A smartgun system is necessary for trigger removal, since the gun requires a command delivered wirelessly or through an optical cable to fire. This modification adds +1 Accuracy but is not cumulative with any other modification that adds to Accuracy other than the requisite smartlink. Wireless triggering requires wireless to be turned on. In case you were wondering.
Which slot do these 2 fall under? Honestly, they both sound like they'd need to be internal modifications. But that's not explicit, so we can't make that safe assumption. Not only that, but clearly they're meant to work together, yet they both can't be internal as you can only have 1 internal mod installed. So maybe, just maybe Trigger Removal is meant to be a stock option, which makes some weird sense as a lot of grip like options are stock options, and electronic firing is probably an internal option.
So backing up to the Ingram, if my first interpretation was correct, it has a silencer eating up its internal slot, so can not take electronic firing. But can have trigger removal, because it has a smartgun. But in the second possibility, it can have both, because nothing is eating up the internal slot of the ingram, not even the smartgun system, which also doesn't sound right. Or, there is another possibility, and that is all the mods from Hard Targets, don't follow any of the modding rules from core or Run & Gun and can go anywhere, which cannot possibly be RAW or RAI.
Anyway, I need some debate here to understand how I'm going to implement modding guns in to Omae. So if anyone can play some devil's advocate at the least, that might be helpful to figure out how this nonsense is suppose to work.
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Internal is the name of the slot, not integral. Things in the internal slot may be integral to the weapon, but not everything that's integral to the weapon takes up the internal slot (similar to how all chicken are birds, but not all birds are chicken).
Stuff that comes with the weapon does not take up the internal slot, it simply takes up no slot at all. So yes that Ingram Smartgun comes with 3 mods, but all slots are still available.
As for your question at the end. The Table on p 183 gives the answer: Electronic Firing is a Barrel mod and Trigger Removal doesn't take up any slot. I agree Electronic Firing sounds like an Internal thing, but RAW it is Barrel.
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Rule one:
FORGET ABOUT THE INGEAM SMARTGUN!!!!
No, seriously. Forget it. It has NEVER worked with the gun modding rules since they were introduced in 3e. Its the weapon I throw at the player that wants a 'magical' firearm.
"You want a magical gun huh? Here you go! An Ingram Smartgun! It magical because you have a silencer AND a gas vent at the same time!"
My only conclusion is that its still in the game with the same stats because its an iconic legacy weapon from 1e, much like the Predator.
Other then that, I basically follow the RnG rules, and forget the Core book. RnG is the newest version of weapon modding rules, so it takes precedence over Core.
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Thanks Quatar, missed that table in Hard Targets. That does clear up a lot, though the idea of slotless mods really annoys me, but I'll live.
How about all the sniper rifles from core. They all come with image scope, which obviously should eat up the top mount. However, by your logic that all mods that a gun comes with do not count as eating up slots. Does that mean I can put a second scope on them, or another top mount accessory?
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I don't buy the interpretation that pre-installed integral mods now take up a slot. It munts on modding mechanics that previously worked, seemingly without reason or benefit. If you don't conflate Internal and Integral, nothing changes.
(also; quietly venting gases in a way that reduces recoil is still a concept that bends people out of shape? seriously? at what point do you just move on and justify it to yourself, without being dramatically silly over it?)
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Thanks Quatar, missed that table in Hard Targets. That does clear up a lot, though the idea of slotless mods really annoys me, but I'll live.
Trigger Removal is literally just sawing off the trigger, or taking it out. The wireless firing is already part of the smartgun system. There's nothing that gets added. Personalized Grip is modifying the grip slightly. Explosive/Extended Magazine... well is just a different mag. Maybe for some it's strange that they don't take a slot.
How about all the sniper rifles from core. They all come with image scope, which obviously should eat up the top mount. However, by your logic that all mods that a gun comes with do not count as eating up slots. Does that mean I can put a second scope on them, or another top mount accessory?
Yes you can, to both. The second scope won't really do you any good though, you can only use one of them at a time.
Think about it this way: They don't build a gun without a scope first and then slide a standard scope on it. The whole weapon is build as one, and the scope is part of the whole design from the very first. It's as much part of the gun as everything else. For some guns it might not even look like a scope, it's so integrated into the frame of the gun. When you think about it this way it's not so hard to see how a top slot can still exist for those.
That first quote in your first post says exactly that they don't take up a slot. Nothing else contradicts or overrules that anywhere. It's unfortunate that they used the term "integral" to describe the internal slot, considering they used that term somewhere else to mean something different. But that's hardly the first time for Catalyst.
If you ignore the "integral" in the internal slot description, would it really be still that confusing?
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Alright Quatar, I'm willing to buy your arguement, if only because the rules are pure madness other wise.
But one last thing, what about descriptions like this
SR5 p 426
Browning Ultra-Power: This venerable sidearm is the Ares Predator’s primary competition as the world’s toughest heavy pistol. It offers a built-in top-mounted laser sight and is slightly cheaper.
The Browning clearly says it comes with a top-mounted laser sight. So, does it mean it's top mount is already used, and since it's integral to the gun does that mean it can not be removed? Or do we ignore it, and just let people do whatever they want?
Specific trumps general, and one would assume this is a specific rule.
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Ok... you got me there...
I see two possibilities:
a) It uses the top mount, but it's fixed, as you say.
b) It's build in, so doesn't use any mount, and that it's top-mounted is just a fluff description on where it is compared to the barrel. AKA that it is above the barrel not beneath it as you usually see laser sights depicted on guns. But you can still add a top mounted accessory
Both are possible, I suppose, but I tend towards b) since it doesn't contradict any other rule really, and the unfortunate sentence can (as so often in the CRB :( ) be blamed on poor editing.
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I think it really comes down to a GM call. Personally I feel the rules for weapon modding where written by different people at different times so person A thought integral weapon designs were part of the weapon and all mods are an addition on top of that while person B felt that all integral weapon designs are meant to take up the relevant mod slot. Me I take it on a case by case basis with the tendency being towards them being a part of the weapon design and not taking up a mod slot. For the browning example its a built in top mounted laser sight that is built in i.e. they already used up that top slot to fit a laser sight prior to shipping like ordering a computer and paying to have a second harddrive mounted taking up one of those slots at a discount. Its built into the gun on order but its still a mod rather than an integral part of the design and you could always swap it out for something else. Same with the silencer for the Ares light fire 70 that silencer takes up the barrel slot but its a specially designed silencer with better muffling that wont work on other guns. For the ingram the gas vent system can't be combined with a second gas vent system i.e. 2 + 3 recoil protection but it can be upgraded from 2 to 3 and still work with the silencer. Although that ones more for balance reasons. On the other hand the smartgun system it comes with is built into the design of the gun from the get go and doesn't take up a mod slot likewise the Ares V smartgun is built into the gun and it has all the mod slots available.