Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: dposluns on <10-07-16/1327:37>
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Maybe I don't know enough Shadowrun lore, but when looking at character creation it always strikes me as odd that you default as SINless, in a future dystopian society where surely they have every biometric data from everyone who was born in a hospital or raised in anything other than an off-the-grid shanty in the woods. I can sort of buy the premise that established runners would have all found ways to shed their SINs, but it would seem to imply that at some point they paid an awful lot of money to a skilled Decker or even team of runners to erase their past for them.
Does anyone have a better framing of it? I sometimes wonder if when choosing a Lifestyle you shouldn't start with a National SIN as the base, and have SINless be a positive quality that you pay Karma for.
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Because most (i.e. almost all) SINless aren't born in hospitals; at least, not official ones. The Barrens and other poverty-stricken regions are basically off-the-grid shanties. The Megacorporations don't want to waste the effort there.
If the Megacorporations and governments paid the money and made the effort to track down the SINless, then they would lose the profit they get by exploiting them in the first place. Not to mention they could be expected to actually give the SINless rights if they started tracking and identifying them and basically giving them SINs. As is, the SINless are non-entities, and everyone but the SINless benefits from them being non-entities.
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MijRai is right.
Economics has a lot to do with it.
Think of a SIN like citizenship (but actually its even more!). If you are a Citizen of a Country, you are protected by its laws, and have access to the services that your country provides, like housing, medical aid, food, employment rights, and education. ALL things that cost a government money.
However, if you are NOT a citizen, you are not entitled to any of those things ( I can't go to the States and get a welfare check, or a job, or even state sponsored housing as I am not a US citizen).
Same thing in SR, without a SIN, you can't prove you are entitled to these things, thus the government doesn't have to spend the money to give you these items.
But a SIN in SR is more then just a Citizenship card... It's a record of your life!
you SIN includes all the details of your life that the government cases to track....
Who your parents are, where you live, where you work, what you earn, what you own, your education level, and even your health! It contains all your permits, licenses and registrations; like your gun permit, your driver's license, your Voter's card, your banking info....
So, with out a SIN, you have no way to prove that you actually exist! No SIN, no birth records... No SIN to employment history, or housing history, or even educational history...
And it THIS level on interwoven complexity that makes it almost impossible to GET a SIN if you don't already have one leading to generations of people without SINs.
After all, without a SIN, your Parents can't rely on a hospital for treatment or even the delivery of a child... And since your parents can't prove that they are citizens, where they live, who they work for and even who raised them, YOU are not eligible for a SIN..... and neither are YOUR children! And on and on the cycle goes.
Most of the those with out SINs are forced to live a life on the fringes of society Working under the table, living in condemned or abandoned housing, and making do with what ever they can grow, steal, or barter for.
How much money do you think your government would save if it turned around and said:
"We are stopping Welfare payments. no longer subsidizing for housing, there are no more Student loans and you must have a job to get medical treatment from a Doctor or Hospital." ???
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It helps to view a SIN as less of how you're tracked by the government and more in terms of the privileges it buys you. I guess for me the questions are of economics and control. Shadowrun feels like a world where there's a lot of control over the population, and I would expect SINs to be a big part of that. If SINs are only held by a minority of the population a lot of that control goes away.
What percentage of the population roughly is SINless? If it's a high number, how does that really function to keep an organized society from collapsing in on itself? Because my understanding is even corporate slaves have SINs. Say if half the population of Seattle is SINless, how does Seattle even begin to function? And does it make sense to be a SINless runner and have a lifestyle higher than Squatter?
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The ratio of SINners to SINless depends on the area, and on your metatype. Live in the Barrens, feral cities, or the middle of nowhere? Almost everyone will be SINless. Live in Bellevue, or some other 'nice' neighborhood? Very, very few SINless (and those that are have really good fakes). Orks and Trolls are far more likely to be SINless than humans, in part because more Orks and Trolls live in those majority SINless areas (and also because of racism).
In the world at large? Some sprawls are nearly impossible to live in without a SIN (Manhattan comes to mind immediately). Others, like Seattle, are merely difficult. Some, like Lagos, are cesspools that would eat SINners alive.
There are plenty of SINners out there, of course. But not everyone has a SIN, and the corps don't WANT everyone to have a SIN. Why? For the same reason that corps use Shadowrunners. Sure, runners cause trouble for them, but they can also cause trouble for the competition, so it is a net win to have them around. Having SINless hellholes within easy view of corp enclaves (and playing up the bad news) is most certainly all about control: controlling their wageslaves. They don't care about the SINless population, because running a country and caring for all the people in it is hard, unprofitable work. And that just isn't good for the bottom line.
I could go on, but suffice to say that there's plenty of reasons for the corps and governments to make sure some people stay SINless.
As for the percentage in Seattle? I'd say somewhere around 10%, just off the top of my head. The bit about runners being SINless by default is confirmation bias. SINners have easier (well, safer) ways of making a living than going around and getting shot at. SINners are too easily tracked for most shadow work. So most of the people you see in the shadows are SINless. Maybe they were born SINless, maybe they lost their SIN when they left their corp, maybe they burned their SIN to go off grid. Whatever the case, most people in the shadows are SINless.
Remember, the books are written from a shadows-centric viewpoint.
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Well, really economics has nothing to do with it.
First of all, nothing really can make a state or corporation to pay welfare to SINners. They can take such obligation, but what SINners can do if UCAS refuse to pay welfare? They will riot? Well, SINless can riot as well. Corporations makes their workers happy because it's good for business, not because they're obliged to. Using that example with "We are stopping Welfare payments. no longer subsidizing for housing, there are no more Student loans and you must have a job to get medical treatment from a Doctor or Hospital." - imagine how government says it WITHOUT revoking citizenships, obliging to pay taxes and follow the laws. Isn't it possible?
Second, if you want to totally exploit somebody, you want to control him as far as you can. So a thought "corporations leave SINless as they are because they want to exploit them" isn't correct. Corporations want to exploit their wageslaves, and every one wageslave has a SIN.
So in total dystopia, where corporations and governments want to eat every one man alive to make max profits, you'll expect full SIN coverage, even in bad places, sure.
Thing is, Shadowrun world isn't exactly dystopia. You can believe it's kind of "1984" if you're reading all that shadowtalk with anarcho-liberal tendencies, but really corporations just don't give a shit about all that guys who lived in Barrens.
Of course a thought "all but SINless have a profit form SINless being SINless" is incorrect. Shadowrunners takes a lot form being SINless. SINless people are free, you can't really made them to oblige laws or pay taxes. It's quite an anarchy experiment, and a lot of people love such matter of living.
Not everybody, of course. But every shadowrunner, generated by rules, can obtain a SIN just by taking a solid work with a corp. Street nobody troll from rulebook examples have 9 dices in shooting (and SIN), it's corporate police vets level, and I don't even start about that mage and technomancer he is teamed with. They are competent enough.
But, as I said before, Shadowrun isn't a world of total totalitarian control, so if a competent man don't want to sell himhelf to corporation... well, most of corps aren't really intrested in your soul, they can't resell it. When shadowrunners crying about a lot of control and about offies wish to control them, let's not forgot it's criminals crying.
But a majority have SIN anyway.
UCAS at whole have estimated SINless population of 30%, and it's the one of worst (or best, depend who you asking) ratio for North America.
AMC have 21%, Athabaska - 25%, CalFree - 32%, Confederation - 20%, Denver - 15%, Pueblo - 8%, Quebec - 18%, SSC - 15%, Siux - 15%, Tir - 8% (oh it's tricky), Tsimshian - 11%, Ute - 23%. It's '60 data, I don't see why that numbers should change drastically. For Siux I can say for sure it's that 15%.
Seattle is kind of different snowflake - it's a world capital of intercorporation politics and shadowrunning. There are Redmond, Puyallup or Underground, with 23%, 18% and 7% respectively for corporate SINners, and I believe you can safely twice (or even more!) a number with national and criminal ones. But in most regions you'll have something around 75% for corporate SINners, not to mention nationals and criminals.
(Shadows of the North America, based in '60th, gives estimated SINners in demography block, but most of modern books gives only Corporate Affiliation number, so excuse me for this imprecision.)
In global dynamics you can expect two different trends.
Governments will go for maxing SINners ratio, because more people means more taxes and more manpower (for army or work). That's not mean everybody will have free SIN, sure, or that every SINner will have a free welfare plan, but essentially governments wants more SINners.
Corporations will go for lessening national SINners ratio, because they can't have money from it and national SINs are useful for governments (and it's always bad for big buisness). They will give their corporate SIN for everybody working for them (yes, wageslaves included, sure), but everybody else - no, they don't need to track them. Why? It's not a question for total control for them (nobody wants it), or for full exploitiation for every last drek in a street.
How can you keep an organized society from collapsing in on itself with such numbers of dark population? One word - badly. Non-corporate enclaves in Sixth World are not very organized, if you are not living in some place as Tir Taingire.
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@Anon:
Ask Greece. This is the boat they are in right now. Their Socialists governments promised everything AND the moon.... but forgot they actually had to PAY for it.....
And now the government can't afford to keep its promises nor its hugh social network of services.
Even if they had ALL their debts forgiven, they would be right back where they are now because their Social Services are 110% of their GDP and that's before you consider other government expenses like infrastructure, payroll, health services, etc....
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Yeah. That's because we're living in a world where answer with military force is wrong answer. If Greece just refuse to pay debts and give welfare, they will meet their credit rating on the floor, and if they use military forces to punish protestors later... well, Gaddafi knows what happens next.
But in Sixth World what bad will happen if you just refuse people welfare and kill all that protestors with lethal force? It was the start of corporation independence, after all, Seretech clause.
I'm living in a country where prime minister can say pensioners "we have no money, keep calm and be happy" (it's direct cite), and he stays in office. And his party takes 49% on parlament elections, and that means (we have funny election system) they have 76% votes in parlament.
I don't really believe UCAS system as it described in rulebooks is very much better.
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All I can tell you is my company is STILL waiting for $270 million in payments from Greece for work we did in 2011. And we are currently suing them for either private ownership of the Port we did upgrades to OR the $270 million plus 6 years interest.....
As the case is going now, looks like we will end up with private ownership.
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All I can tell you is my company is STILL waiting for $270 million in payments from Greece for work we did in 2011. And we are currently suing them for either private ownership of the Port we did upgrades to OR the $270 million plus 6 years interest.....
Sorry, I believe we don't understand each other.
You're speaking about situation where government TRIED to give their citizens full welfare packet and failed. Yeah, that happens. It isn't writed on the wall though, Nordic states mostly happen to make it happen, but really welfare is costly, no arguing here.
I'm speaking about situation where government DOESN'T EVEN TRY to give their citizens ANY welfare (or gives a little for them to live), and destroys every riot with lethal force.
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All I can tell you is my company is STILL waiting for $270 million in payments from Greece for work we did in 2011. And we are currently suing them for either private ownership of the Port we did upgrades to OR the $270 million plus 6 years interest.....
Sorry, I believe we don't understand each other.
You're speaking about situation where government TRIED to give their citizens full welfare packet and failed. Yeah, that happens. It isn't writed on the wall though, Nordic states mostly happen to make it happen, but really welfare is costly, no arguing here.
I'm speaking about situation where government DOESN'T EVEN TRY to give their citizens ANY welfare (or gives a little for them to live), and destroys every riot with lethal force.
Don't have to look far, Chad, Ghana, Somalia are all countries with non-existent social programs, mass unrest and "disappearing" protestors.
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A lot of people also lost their SINs in the big Matrix crashes.
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Don't have to look far, Chad, Ghana, Somalia are all countries with non-existent social programs, mass unrest and "disappearing" protestors.
My point exactly.
No mystical power really oblige states to give welfare. That's why arguement "hey, if states gives all that SINless SINs, they will obliged to give them welfare!" is invalid - having citizenship and having any civil rights aren't really linked.
Let me put it that way:
If you are a Citizen of a Country, you are protected by its laws, and have access to the services that your country provides, like housing, medical aid, food, employment rights, and education. ALL things that cost a government money.
Really you are not. If you're citizen of a country, you are SUBJECT of this country laws. IF they said you're protected and have a right for services - good for you. IF they don't - well, you're screwed. And if government don't really depends on citizens (let's say it have good corporation backing with private armies), they won't initiate welfare programs - until citizens have enough force to make them.
Also being a subject of this country laws you are the first money source for the government - tax payer.
A lot of people also lost their SINs in the big Matrix crashes.
In the second only - first Crash happened in '29, 7 years before SIN system was implemented.
Also truth to be said Crash 2.0 gives SIN system not so big problem. There were offline servers and biodata storage, and the problem to solve was to restore system; some people just thought it's too much hassle for nothing.
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You're a little off Anon.
You are always subject to the laws of the country you are in. Even if you are not a citizen and just visiting. BUT being a citizen opens other rights that non-citzens do not have.
Even though I worked in Ghana for 18 months, I was not allowed to vote, was not allowed a water ration (had to pay for every liter in stead of the 60 free liters a month) was not allowed to purchase property....
I was was also framing it in a way many readers here could understand, as I doubt VERY much that anyone on this forum comes from such a country. (Tabletop gaming is an expensive hobby, and I doubt very much people are going to pay what amounts to almost a year's salary on an imaginary game when that money has to buy food, clothing, shelter, etc.)
The programs many people know from the western world of docial services are not there any more. And that is something many players forget.
I doubt very that those that lost a SIN during the crash 2.0 felt 'it wasn't worth the hassle for nothing' considering with out a SIN they can't access their banking, not hold a job, buy food or even rent a coffin motel.... more likely they fought like hell to get their SINs back.... but there just wasn't anything left of the info, or lacked a way to 'prove' they had a SIN.
Let me put it this way:
Are you willing to give up everything you own (right down to the electronic device you are reading this on) and any hope of having more then an occasionally daily labor job AND live on the streets with no shelter?
I doubt it..... yet that is what you are implying many did. They gave up EVERYTHING over a 'hassle'.
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You are always subject to the laws of the country you are in. Even if you are not a citizen and just visiting. BUT being a citizen opens other rights that non-citzens do not have.
Not exactly. You can be visitor into USA, that don't mean you should pay taxes there, for example; or be entitled to serve if mobilization happen. And you need to make some real crimes to be really incarcerated by USA police, not to be sent away with visa annuled. Well, USA is known as a country that not very scrupulous for this matters, but anyway.
Even though I worked in Ghana for 18 months, I was not allowed to vote, was not allowed a water ration (had to pay for every liter in stead of the 60 free liters a month) was not allowed to purchase property....
True. Not being a citizen is limiting. That don't mean that being a citizen ISN'T limiting or give you only privilegies.
The programs many people know from the western world of docial services are not there any more. And that is something many players forget.
I believe players shouldn't forgot it, to be honest.
Also I'm living in a country (and I'm playing tabletops here) with median pension with 200 USD, and our country calls itself "social state".
I doubt very that those that lost a SIN during the crash 2.0 felt 'it wasn't worth the hassle for nothing' considering with out a SIN they can't access their banking, not hold a job, buy food or even rent a coffin motel.... more likely they fought like hell to get their SINs back.... but there just wasn't anything left of the info, or lacked a way to 'prove' they had a SIN.
That's the word rulebook used. About SINless in Seattle. I can find it. Can't really say which rulebook just now, but I saw it and I believed it's very logical, so I remembered.
Because OF COURSE I'm not willing to give up everything I have just now. I'm scientist, I have stable job (two of them, to be precise), I have property. But I quite remember as I was 18. I haven't nothing. I never used social services. For electronic devices I had ancient notebook my father gave me four years ago. I lived on street or with friends. I believe it was you can call "hard times" (or a life low-level barrens population lives in Shadowrun).
I lost my passport that time. I live in Russia, so it's implying that you NEED a passport. You can't use a hotel, open a bank account, have a car, rent a room, have a work, have a family... Ah, yes. Clinic where I was born was burned forteen years before, so there was not registry of birth. Essentially I was SINless.
I needed to came to police on my registration place, take a proof there, go to military commissariat with it, take another proof there, go to med clinic, complete observation, take proof (of course), return to MC, take another proof, go to register office, take another proof, go to municipality on registration place, take another proof, return to police, give them all that proofs and wait two months (Russia is bureucracy). I wasn't sure I will alive in that two months, and really I worked by daily labour anyway. I was lucky, I lived in a city I was born, registred and schooled - and it can be not a case (once again, you can't buy a ticket to ANY intercity transport without passport). All that movements require a lot of time, a lot of running around, and I had better ways to spent my time.
So I didn't bother for another one-and-half year.
If I lose my passport today, of course, I'll make all this steps ASAP, because if I don't I can't work and live my current life. And that will do any man after Crash 2.0, if he lost something without SIN and want to return it. And so they did, system was essentially restored fastly enough to have a great majority of Seattle population SINners again.
But SINners who don't use their SINs anyway?.. well, they really could not bother.
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Drunkenly pissing on the tire of a cop car in Seattle netted me a long weekend in lockup.
So no, you don't have to do anything major. You just have to break the law.
Punching a cleric in Ghana who attacked ME with with a machete (because I am Kafhar) just about got me SHOT by the police. (Only thing that stopped them was our private para-military security).
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Are you sure you're not mixing laws, rules of stay, police overzealous and proper procedure?
As I know even USA use to give you right to use a call to your country consulate.
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Call yes. But that doesn't mean your consulate can or WILL do anything, as that can create an international row.
One of the fundamental tenants of a country is the right to create, enforce, and adjucate their rule of Law. To interseed in an other countries' rights is to threaten their sovreignty, basically an act of agression (war).
Most countries have a travel advisory webpage which will inform you of what countries are deemed safe to travel to.
If you pay attention to the news recently, you might have read a story of the female Canaduan professor who was detained, tortured and beaten by the Iranian government for over 3 months. (This is a post interview with her: http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/hoodfar-interview-iran-exclusive-1.3792086)
By your rationale, she should have just been sent home... but she wasn't, she was detained without counsel, mentally abused and taumatized.... because THAT is the way the Law works in Iran, even though such actions are deplorable to Canada. Canada couldn't do anything because that's the legal system of Iran. (Now some back room diplomatic avts did eventually lead to release, but this is not always gauranteed.)
5 years ago, Canada refuse to acknowledge the diplomatic credentials of a filipino diplomat and had him arrested, tried and convicted after it was found out he was sexually abusing Canadian Minors in his home and then using his diplomatic standing into bullying them to keep quiet. The Phillipines screamed bloody murder!
I've traveled to 32 different countries over the years, worked in 16 of them, and been banned from entry in 4. (Can't go back to Greece for 6 more years thanks to a bar fight. Something in Canada that barely ranks a fine, but in Greece carries a 2 year sentence! I took a plea deal. 10 years banned entry to avoid jail)
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Of course she should have just been sent home! It's exactly my point. There is a gap between ideal world where everything is operated by laws and strict rules, and a real world with a thousand ways to abuse.
There is a principle of international law, right to defend one country's citizen from abuse from another government, even by military force. Why? Because exactly that tenet you cited before - because country have a right to create, enforce and adjudicate their rule of law, and when one government takes another land citizen and imprison him without that country consent, it's unfriendly act, said country's right to create, enforce and adjudicate their rule of law is damaged. It's the very idea WHY diplomats tried to rescue their citizens from different Irans (or USAs; or Israels; or Russias; or...) - because there is a basic position that citizen of some country is responsibility of said country. Theoretically, another country's citizens are beyond one country jurisdictions.
But Iran, for example, don't give this principle a shit - he have a power to take anybody within it's borders, drop her into prison and let her stays there for over 3 months. Because Canada, ten to one, will try to solve that diplomatically, not by war, and Canada know it, Iran know it, everybody know it. Iranians don't got her because international law allowed it. They got her because they could get her and stay unpunished.
That's exactly same with SINs. You're subject of laws that are works in your SIN country. If you haven't any SIN, you're not a subject to any law. But also you're not protected by any guy with big gun and police marking, no another big guy will come and said "hey, let him alone, he is mine".
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Call yes. But that doesn't mean your consulate can or WILL do anything, as that can create an international row.
One of the fundamental tenants of a country is the right to create, enforce, and adjucate their rule of Law. To interseed in an other countries' rights is to threaten their sovreignty, basically an act of agression (war).
Most countries have a travel advisory webpage which will inform you of what countries are deemed safe to travel to.
If you pay attention to the news recently, you might have read a story of the female Canaduan professor who was detained, tortured and beaten by the Iranian government for over 3 months. (This is a post interview with her: http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/hoodfar-interview-iran-exclusive-1.3792086)
By your rationale, she should have just been sent home... but she wasn't, she was detained without counsel, mentally abused and taumatized.... because THAT is the way the Law works in Iran, even though such actions are deplorable to Canada. Canada couldn't do anything because that's the legal system of Iran. (Now some back room diplomatic avts did eventually lead to release, but this is not always gauranteed.)
5 years ago, Canada refuse to acknowledge the diplomatic credentials of a filipino diplomat and had him arrested, tried and convicted after it was found out he was sexually abusing Canadian Minors in his home and then using his diplomatic standing into bullying them to keep quiet. The Phillipines screamed bloody murder!
I've traveled to 32 different countries over the years, worked in 16 of them, and been banned from entry in 4. (Can't go back to Greece for 6 more years thanks to a bar fight. Something in Canada that barely ranks a fine, but in Greece carries a 2 year sentence! I took a plea deal. 10 years banned entry to avoid jail)
You sound fun. ;D
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Eh. The rundown on SINless "rights" in Vice is good enough. I have no illusions about trying to reconcile IRL law with Shadowrun, except when IRL law would allow me to really have some fun. Even then, I've leaned heavily on Rule of Cool because it's all in good fun.
My personal rule of thumb is to replace every reference to "person" and "citizen" in the Constitution with "SINner." Those are the rights SINless don't have. For example:
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
At least the Fifth still exists, though. The UCAS's 14th Amendment isn't the same as ours, and in fact there is no evidence that the language of the 14th exists anywhere. BTW, that's also how the SINless exist, at least in the UCAS – the lack of Section 1 of the 14th means that people don't automatically become citizens just because they're born within the UCAS.
The last two subsections of 14th, Section 1 limit the states from infringing on individual rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights and the rest of the Constitution. Without that, this doesn't even apply to states – they might provide rights and protections not afforded to SINless federally, since the Constitution is a floor, not a ceiling, and individuals' rights under state laws tend to be even more broad – but that also means that there's nothing stopping states from really messing with the SINless. Depending on who the target is this can and does make life anywhere from uncomfortable to moot because, well, Due Process is the legal floor that keeps the government from just killing you and taking your stuff.
Just for reference, NAGNA estimated a SINless population of 3-4 million in the UCAS. Those estimates have been assumed to increase over the years to emphasize the dystopian nature of Shadowrun, since 3-4 million of ~190MM isn't that bleak. Sure, it's larger than the modern Indian population, but that's an ignorable demographic to most Americans (especially the ones who don't realize there are any Indians left in the U.S.), but 5-10% of the population becomes unavoidable.
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According the UN. and it's declaration of Right of Foreign nationals in an other country you are entitled to:
1. Aliens shall enjoy, in accordance with domestic law and subject to the relevant international obligation of the State in which they are present, in particular the following rights:
(a) The right to life and security of person; no alien shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest or detention; no alien shall be deprived of his or her liberty except on such grounds and in accordance with such procedures as are established by law;
(b) The right to protection against arbitrary or unlawful interference with privacy, family, home or correspondence;
(c) The right to be equal before the courts, tribunals and all other organs and authorities administering justice and, when necessary, to free assistance of an interpreter in criminal proceedings and , when prescribed by law, other proceedings;
(d) The right to choose a spouse, to marry, to found a family;
(e) The right to freedom of thought, opinion, conscience and religion; the right to manifest their religion or beliefs, subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary to protect public safety, order, health or morals or the fundamental rights and freedoms of others;
(f) The right to retain their own language, culture and tradition;
(g) The right to transfer abroad earnings, savings or other personal monetary assets, subject to domestic currency regulations.
And that's about it. Of course, only UN member countries are bound to follow these statues. But some still don't.
Nothing there about employment, voting, private ownership, health care, and many other things we take for granted.
of Course this is made more complex in SR and the SIN system... cause if you don't have a SIN, it's hard to prove you are even alive... ESPECIALLY when there are people looking for organs, lab rats, dinner, and target practice... ("Did I really kill someone? Prove it. Where were they born? to Whom? What Hospital? Who knows them?")
Nowadays, you can get away with not answering simple question like your name, DOB and such (they charge you for it..) But it makes the authorites go to extreme lengths to find out about, often turning to the public for help.... In SR, they turn to your SIN and the GSR with a DNA sample..... But.. you... don't .. have.. a .... SIN..... And since every citizen born to a country is supposed to be in the GSR.... that can mean only one thing.. you're not real! ;)
@Eirahaexa
Actually I am giant asshole. (At least I can admit it!) and have gotten myself into more trouble then I would of if I learned to keep my dumb ass mouth shut and minded my own business. But I can't.... and shit happens.
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According the UN. and it's declaration of Right of Foreign nationals in an other country you are entitled to:
... nothing in Shadowrun, unless the reformed UN pushed through another declaration and its signatory countries actually made it law. There is no evidence of this.
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And this is what VICE has to say on the issue for The UCAS (other countries may be better, or worse)
From VICE, SR 4
In Seattle—as well as the rest of
UCAS—anyone without a SIN is considered a
“probationary citizen.” They are not protected
under the constitution, and so their rights are
severely limited (some might say even non-existent).
The police are not required to allow the
SINless representation by an attorney if they’ve
been accused of a crime, they are not entitled
to a trial by their peers, there are no maximum
sentences for their crimes, and they are not
protected from self-incrimination (including
mind-probes) during questioning. Although
being SINless is not a crime, in and of itself, it
often leads to crimes just in daily life: a SINless
metahuman cannot have licenses (such as a
driver’s license or gun permit) that many take
for granted, and so the simple act of driving a
car becomes a crime. The SINless have no rights
to free speech, carry arms, gather peaceably, or
vote. Some public and government areas require
all people present to broadcast their SIN—simply
entering the Seattle Zoo is therefore a crime for
a SINless person.
Edit: And I just noticed that Crimsondude updated his earlier entry as well..... but missed the part about self-incrimination (the 5th amendment in the US)... The SINless don't have that right either. ("and they are not
protected from self-incrimination (including mind-probes) during questioning." bit)
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According the UN. and it's declaration of Right of Foreign nationals in an other country you are entitled to:
... nothing in Shadowrun, unless the reformed UN pushed through another declaration and its signatory countries actually made it law. There is no evidence of this.
Very true, that is our real world declaration, signed in 1965.
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Nothing there about employment, voting, private ownership, health care, and many other things we take for granted.
Wait.
It's the very point I'm saying that "employment, voting, private ownership, health care, and many other things we take for granted" isn't really automated and came with a citizenship. We can take it for granted, good for us, but in Sixth World it's not the case. The very history of NAN really started when USA federal government decided that Natives shouldn't have such rights because USA feds could decide that way. Serves them right if you ask me, but the case stands.
You can have SIN AND be stripped from "employment, voting, private ownership, health care, and many other things we take for granted", because why not?
Also you're misreading "Declaration on the Human Rights of Individuals Who are not Nationals of the Country in which They Live". You cited Article 5, but EXACT RIGHTS you say aliens haven't are cited in Article 8.
"1 . Aliens lawfully residing in the territory of a State shall also enjoy, in accordance with the national laws, the following rights, subject to their obligations under article 4:
(a) The right to safe and healthy working conditions, to fair wages and equal remuneration for work of equal value without distinction of any kind, in particular, women being guaranteed conditions of work not inferior to those enjoyed by men, with equal pay for equal work;
(b) The right to join trade unions and other organizations or associations of their choice and to participate in their activities. No restrictions may be placed on the exercise of this right other than those prescribed by law and which are necessary, in a democratic society, in the interests of national security or public order or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others;
(c) The right to health protection, medical care, social security, social services, education, rest and leisure, provided that they fulfil the requirements under the relevant regulations for participation and that undue strain is not placed on the resources of the State."
Just in case, I want to remind where I'm stand. ;)
I wanted to say that position "state isn't give SINs, because if you get a SIN, you automatically have a lot of civil rights, such as welfare, and it's very costly", is objected by simple understanding that HAVING SIN (or citizenship) in general don't give you finnish level of welfare for granted. If laws don't give you good welfare, you don't get it. And nothing can really made non-accountable government to grant such rights.
I'm not trying to say that SINless have a lot of rights. I'm trying to say SINless aren't subjects of laws, it's quite opposite position. It means, for example, they are not subjects to taxation or mobilization. They aren't obliged, theoretically, to follow ANY law at all. But police officer isn't obliged, theoretically, to follow proper procedure with them, so welcome to the universe of police arbitrariness.
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Nothing there about employment, voting, private ownership, health care, and many other things we take for granted.
Wait.
It's the very point I'm saying that "employment, voting, private ownership, health care, and many other things we take for granted" isn't really automated and came with a citizenship. We can take it for granted, good for us, but in Sixth World it's not the case. The very history of NAN really started when USA federal government decided that Natives shouldn't have such rights because USA feds could decide that way. Serves them right if you ask me, but the case stands.
You can have SIN AND be stripped from "employment, voting, private ownership, health care, and many other things we take for granted", because why not?
Also you're misreading "Declaration on the Human Rights of Individuals Who are not Nationals of the Country in which They Live". You cited Article 5, but EXACT RIGHTS you say aliens haven't are cited in Article 8.
"1 . Aliens lawfully residing in the territory of a State shall also enjoy, in accordance with the national laws, the following rights, subject to their obligations under article 4:
(a) The right to safe and healthy working conditions, to fair wages and equal remuneration for work of equal value without distinction of any kind, in particular, women being guaranteed conditions of work not inferior to those enjoyed by men, with equal pay for equal work;
(b) The right to join trade unions and other organizations or associations of their choice and to participate in their activities. No restrictions may be placed on the exercise of this right other than those prescribed by law and which are necessary, in a democratic society, in the interests of national security or public order or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others;
(c) The right to health protection, medical care, social security, social services, education, rest and leisure, provided that they fulfil the requirements under the relevant regulations for participation and that undue strain is not placed on the resources of the State."
ACK! Missed that! (and thank you for pointing it out... still had the page open on my phone so it was an easy lookup, I guess the page hadn't fully loaded when I was copying from it, because that wasn't there when I was looking earlier, but it IS now!).
and shows I was talking out of my ass a bit. (See? I can admit it, when shown :D)
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I guess I should add that I'm all for there not being any Due Process rights for SINless either, but that's not explicitly the case. Given the material on Criminal SINs and criminal procedure going back to Lone Star, however, I have to begrudgingly acknowledge that Due Process is granted to the SINless to protect their life and liberty.
At the same time, though, I refuse to believe that it extends to their property or property interests. It doesn't exist for immigrants who've been detained or under civil forfeiture (I'm not specifically sure if the former falls under the latter or under the federal government's immigration powers).
ANYWAY, if those two are about it, then yeah, being SINless sucks. And the UCAS is probably one of the better countries to be SINless in.
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@Eirahaexa
Actually I am giant asshole. (At least I can admit it!) and have gotten myself into more trouble then I would of if I learned to keep my dumb ass mouth shut and minded my own business. But I can't.... and shit happens.
Oh honey, you should see the miscreants I run with. We are all assholes. We have to be.
I was homeless on and off as a kid in the buckle of the bible belt (same city the Westboro Baptist Church calls home, actually.), and I had to do some morally ambiguous things to survive. Managed to avoid drugs or getting forced into prostitution, but I've still seen some shit that would make even the most gutsy shadowrunner flinch.
No ID, no money, no help, nada. I was about as close to SINless as you can get in the good ol' US of A. I still drink a little too much than I probably should, but I've managed to avoid any legal trouble. Still sleep with a knife under my pillow too.
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A lot of people also lost their SINs in the big Matrix crashes.
Rumors and conspiracy-mongering. The Global SIN Registry was never compromised. Everything is fine. Move along, citizen.
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civil forfeiture (I'm not specifically sure if the former falls under the latter or under the federal government's immigration powers).
not sure about the states, or SR, but in Canada, both the Federal and Provincial governments have civil forfeiture policies... and both have been known to go after the same items.
Which is basically everything you have if you commit a crime!
Thankfully, the Civil Rights League of Canada has been stepping up to the plate, and defending some people that the CF offices have gone after. Especially those caught in catch 22s situations. (and trust me, there are A LOT of them! Greedy, money grubbing fuckhead asshole politicians.... I got a barbwire wrapped crowbar for their asses... to be inserted SIDEWAYS!)
Basically, get charged (NOT CONVICTED!) of an indictable offense, and they come after your house(s), your car(s), your pension, your bank account(s).... everything worth a nickel they want, and want it NOW.... often times the notice from the CF office arrives before your court date.. and if you are found innocent? Good for you! now fight the CF office to NOT take your shot anyways!
(want to boil your blood, just google Canada, Civil Forfeiture)
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There are tons of cases where the cops have just taken cash from people they pulled over and that money disappeared into a black hole.
Let's just say that it works the same way or may even be worse here barring a few states that have recently limited the use of civil forfeiture by state and local law enforcement.
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The biggest case of outrage (and civil suit won against the CF office) up here involved a Land lord and a tenant.
The tenant was selling drugs out of a house and got arrested. The CF office laid a claim on the house, taking from the owner stating that since the house had been used by the tenant and the Landlord didn't evict him in 30 days, the landlord was responsible.
HOWEVER, the Tenancy Act of Canada states that a Landlord can NOT evict someone from their rented property even if they commit an indictable offense without 90 days notice filed with both the Tenancy Office and the Tenant. To evict with out said notice is an indictable offense.....
Catch 22.... He doesn't evict the tenant right away, he loses his house, he DOES evict he is charged with an indictable offense and loses his house.
After 5 years in court at the cost of almost $300,000 in legal fees (the house was LONG ago taken by the feds), a Supreme Court judge ruled that the Crown had acted in bad faith and awarded the landlords the purchase price of the house (current year), restitution of legal fees, and $ 2 million in damages. It's currently under appeal by the Crown, *which could mean another 3 years before the appeal court even looks at it. (Thankfully the appeals court of the Supreme Court of Canada doesn't have to spend long on it if they choose not to... a Simple YES/NO with no reasons given is the way the Appeals court works. Either yes you get an appeal and a new trial, or No, the verdict stands.
My lawyer says the appeals court most likely will reject the appeal as there is no legal basis for it. And the only reason I have paid such close interest in this case is the fact that I have a half dozen rental homes across Canada, and could very easily find myself in this exact situation.
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What about Mehran Karimi Nasseri? I apologize for the quote being from wikipedia ::) but I don't have the time to find a more reputeable site as I'm heading to bed . . .
Nasseri claims he was expelled from Iran in 1977 for protests against the Shah and after a long battle, involving applications in several countries, was awarded refugee status by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees in Belgium. This allegedly permitted residence in many other European countries. However, this claim has been disputed.[3]
Having claimed to have one British parent, although he has produced no evidence to support this, he decided to settle in the UK in 1986, but en route there in 1988, his papers were lost when his briefcase was stolen.[4] Despite this setback, he boarded the plane for London but was promptly returned to France when he failed to present a passport to British immigration officials. He was initially arrested by the French, but then released as his entry to the airport was legal and he had no country of origin to be returned to; thus began his residency at Terminal 1.
His case was later taken on by French human rights lawyer Christian Bourget. In 1992, a French court ruled that, having entered the country legally, he could not be expelled from the airport, but it could not grant him permission to enter France.
Attempts were then made to have new documents issued from Belgium, but the authorities there would only do so if Nasseri presented himself in person. However, under Belgian law a refugee who voluntarily leaves a country that has accepted him cannot return. In 1995, the Belgian authorities granted permission for him to return, but only if he agreed to live there under supervision of a social worker. Nasseri refused this on the grounds of wanting to enter the UK as originally intended.[4]
Nasseri's stay at the airport ended in July 2006 when he was hospitalized and his sitting place dismantled. Towards the end of January 2007, he left the hospital and was looked after by the airport's branch of the French Red Cross; he was lodged for a few weeks in a hotel close to the airport. On March 6, 2007, he transferred to an Emmaus charity reception-centre in Paris's 20th arrondissement. Since 2008 he has continued to live in a Paris shelter.[4]
During his 17-year-long stay at Terminal 1 in the Charles de Gaulle Airport, Nasseri had his luggage at his side and spent his time reading, writing in his diary, or studying economics.[5] He received food and newspapers from employees of the airport.
Real life case no idea if he was telling the truth about his papers being stolen but the guy spent 17 years living in an airport because he "didn't exist" as far as the legal system was concerned.
As for the SINless being low numbers mentioned earlier that would actually lend a certain degree of realism as far as I see it to the whole distopian angle. A massive SINless population can't really be ignored but one that small I can see the people possessing SIN's not really being concerned "Its not a big problem, I rarely see a homeless person and I commute outside the arcology."
Finally and yes I am jumping all over, in Australia today there are young people who don't want to work because welfare takes care of their "needs". They would rather not get a job and income because they don't want anything more than to drive their car on dirt trails and hang out at Macca's. Now SINless don't get welfare but a small "tribe" who hunt and sing songs around the garbage can fire could evolve. Not just a group of homeless people in the same area but a tribe friends, family, sticking together working together to survive the matrxi crash, wars, weird and frightening events that acompanied awakening. That is . . .
Generation 1: Lose everything and huddle together to survive as the entire country implodes (great ghost dance).
Generation 2: Grew up amidst the "ruin" of America.
Generation 3: Never knew anything different and don't want a SIN because why do they need it? To vote? They don't care. To work? Hunting rats in the barrens doesn't need a SIN. To own property? Those SINners don't look happy at all.
First generation lost it and didn't think it ever came back, second generation grew up with only vague childhood memories of citizenship, third generation don't want to leave their homes and lives.
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Didn't they make a movie staring Tom Hanks based off of that???
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Generation 1: Lose everything and huddle together to survive as the entire country implodes (great ghost dance).
Generation 2: Grew up amidst the "ruin" of America.
Generation 3: Never knew anything different and don't want a SIN because why do they need it? To vote? They don't care. To work? Hunting rats in the barrens doesn't need a SIN. To own property? Those SINners don't look happy at all.
In the UCAS, this describes the Compensation Army. They have their own barrens within the Anacostia Barrens in DeeCee called Compville. It's described in Conspiracy Theories as "a breeding ground for anti-government activists, neo-Anarchists, and armed militiamen."
Well, I should add that this also describes the Ork Underground perfectly and matches the description of Kham's home life in Never Trust An Elf. At least pre-Proposition 23.
Didn't they make a movie staring Tom Hanks based off of that???
Yes, complete with a needless and contrived love story.
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Thanks for filling me in on some of the lore, you guys.
I think maybe what I still struggle with is that while the condition of growing up SINless sounds absolutely miserable on paper, it is kind of a privilege in this game. You don't pay taxes, you don't have any negative associations and (by default anyway) aren't on the books anywhere. Sure you may have to shill out for a fake SIN to get by but that's easy enough. And the system may not be on your side but you operate outside the system anyway. It just seems like a pretty fortunate place to be beginning by default, that the majority of the population wouldn't necessarily have as an option.
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Well, Runners are a little bit above the rest of the SINless, usually by sheer force of will to learn to do things others can not.
And there are people like that everywhere, just look around your home city and listen to the stories of some "old timers"
There are lots of people who were born with literally nothing, and through determination, hard work and force of Will became successful in their lives and changed their situations.
SR is not really any different in that regard. Sure the way they lift themselves up is different, and they face a different struggles, but it's the force of character they have that is the same.
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I guess I should add that I'm all for there not being any Due Process rights for SINless either, but that's not explicitly the case. Given the material on Criminal SINs and criminal procedure going back to Lone Star, however, I have to begrudgingly acknowledge that Due Process is granted to the SINless to protect their life and liberty.
Technically, most countries in SR still subscribe to the notion of human rights, which grant rights such as protection from arbitrary detention to every human regardless of citizenship -- but just as those rights are happily ignored IRL, merely having statements to that effect on the books does not mean much in SR...
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Thanks for filling me in on some of the lore, you guys.
I think maybe what I still struggle with is that while the condition of growing up SINless sounds absolutely miserable on paper, it is kind of a privilege in this game. You don't pay taxes, you don't have any negative associations and (by default anyway) aren't on the books anywhere. Sure you may have to shill out for a fake SIN to get by but that's easy enough. And the system may not be on your side but you operate outside the system anyway. It just seems like a pretty fortunate place to be beginning by default, that the majority of the population wouldn't necessarily have as an option.
The disconnect is that you're thinking about things from a runner's POV. But there's a reason why any runner who has the cred gets themselves as good a fake SIN as they can. Without a SIN, doing basic things (like walking in certain neighborhoods) can draw the attention of the cops. Purchasing anything from a licensed dealer is pretty much a no-go, meaning you're looking at black and grey market goods for EVERYTHING, unless you can find it at the local Stuffer Shack, or can find a way to trade for it. Having any Restricted weapon without a SIN is a fast-track to getting your very own shiny Criminal SIN if you get caught. You can't live in areas nicer than the Barrens without a SIN.
That doesn't mean it is all bad, but you're definitely at a disadvantage for your day-to-day living that someone with a SIN just doesn't have. How much will this affect you in game? Depends on how your GM runs things.
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Thanks for filling me in on some of the lore, you guys.
I think maybe what I still struggle with is that while the condition of growing up SINless sounds absolutely miserable on paper, it is kind of a privilege in this game. You don't pay taxes, you don't have any negative associations and (by default anyway) aren't on the books anywhere. Sure you may have to shill out for a fake SIN to get by but that's easy enough. And the system may not be on your side but you operate outside the system anyway. It just seems like a pretty fortunate place to be beginning by default, that the majority of the population wouldn't necessarily have as an option.
The disconnect is that you're thinking about things from a runner's POV. But there's a reason why any runner who has the cred gets themselves as good a fake SIN as they can. Without a SIN, doing basic things (like walking in certain neighborhoods) can draw the attention of the cops. Purchasing anything from a licensed dealer is pretty much a no-go, meaning you're looking at black and grey market goods for EVERYTHING, unless you can find it at the local Stuffer Shack, or can find a way to trade for it. Having any Restricted weapon without a SIN is a fast-track to getting your very own shiny Criminal SIN if you get caught. You can't live in areas nicer than the Barrens without a SIN.
That doesn't mean it is all bad, but you're definitely at a disadvantage for your day-to-day living that someone with a SIN just doesn't have. How much will this affect you in game? Depends on how your GM runs things.
Except that you can exit chargen with a Rating 4 Fake SIN for just 10,000 nuyen, which pretty much washes away the issue of not having a SIN for most things. Or get a cheapo one until you need to actually go in the front door of somewhere more secure than a grocery store. In terms of game mechanics it's a pretty advantageous place to be, compared to those poor suckers who pay taxes and are in the system.
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I think I remember a couple of references to SIN amnesties. Have there actually been any?
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Yes there have. The DiMR has been known to give out a limited number of SINs, I believe on the anniversary of the Big D death. I just can't remember if it was 5k or 10k....
And also keep in mind that's not limited to a single city but across the country (World??)
And what happens to those people is up for debate. (There is shadow talk that those who get a SIN from the DiMR have been disappearing...)
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Wasn't it the 'token' recipients who were disappearing?
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TBH, I can't remember the details. The shadowtalk around the entry mentioned that a large number of DiMR citizens that got SINs from their amnisty give out ended going missing within 3 years....
Now there could be a logical reason for this (they were SINless for a long time and even a SIN doesn't mean you can find steady employment especially when you have no recgognized education.....
But the posts also hinted that something was going on.... maybe they were jump technomancers... or latent Drakes.... or maybe just test subjects....
Its left open for the GM to use (as are many of the shadowtalk rumors)
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The UCAS also made it easier to acquire a SIN under Haeffner/Daviar. The lessened restrictions, which basically come down to being sponsored by SINner in good standing, is also being used by A-rated corps like Microdeck to get SINs for AI.
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Well it seems half of the OPs question was covered but everyone forgot the why. The reason you are sinless by default is because that is the lifestyle that both draws shadow runners and that shadow runners are drawn to. Not all sinless are born that way. Many chooses that life. It could be to doge heat, could be to escape the corporate dreck. Back in the old days when neo-anarchy was the main way of life ditching your sin was a badge of honor and the first step to fraging the man. Not to mention if everyone started with a sin a lot more new players would make the mistak of doing the wrong thing with it on and getting tagged. I think that becaus a lot of the old ways have fallen out of style has made people think differently about being sinless. Sort of like how any guy with a bit of chrome and combat skills calls himself a street sam but has no more honor or code than the weeners.