Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Beansidhe on <09-09-10/1915:18>
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Trying to compare the Karma Character Creation system with the normal one for general understanding of how I like them (will likely be the GM if I ever get to play SR again).
I'm confused as to the cost of taking a Metatype. In one area it states that to take a metatype you pay double the normal BP cost for it, in other areas it seems to say that you don't pay for it at all. In the character example, I did not see Marissa pay Karma to be a Sasquatch. I think that the double BP is correct but as I said above, I'm confused.
The second question I believe that the answer is no. Do characters get their normally given free Knowledge/Language skills (other than native language)?
Thanks for the answers.
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I'm sure someone who knows will be along shortly if not i'll kick the one I know to help you out .....
As I understand from him your Meta race is free.
but you pay for everything else.
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As nobody has stated you are wrong, I am assuming that you are correct.
Following that system, I have just worked up a Dwarven Bear Magician in both the BP and the KP systems. The Karma system seemed to net me a huge amount over the BP system. The character improved in skills and attributes while having points left over for more still.
Is this usual for the KP system, or was I building a bit to much of a generalized character with BPs? The KP system said it would make characters more generalists and less specialists, but I felt I specialized a lot more with it. I raised my 3 Skill groups from 3 to 4, brought my 1 fire arms skill up to a 2 (so all active skills I had invested in went up by a rank). I then bought 2 skills at 5 and 2 skills at 4 past what I had prior. I pushed my Magic to 6 from 5, Body to 6 from 5, Int to 2 from 1, Rea and Agi from 2 to 3, Edge from 1 to 3 and Str to 4 from 3.
I kept the same Gear, Foci (a Rating 5 Health Sustaining and a Rating 3 Health Casting), Contacts, and Spells (though I realize in comparison I am 2 spells over on the BP version since I dropped my Sorcery Package to 3 near the end). I have the same Knowledge Skills and Languages (though this time I paid for them except my Native language).
With all of those changes I still have 29 KP left to toss at something. Just feel like maybe I have made a mistake but going through I do not see what it was. Going to check again, because my BP seems like something must be wrong with it.
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Errata for Karmagen(only in latest physical printing of the English book) is that you pay the races BP-cost in karma, also attributes cost 5xnew rating(just like it does when advancing a character with SR4A)
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Same goes for the errata'd german version. Race cost is the BP cost in karma and is also used to calculate how many points you may spend on attributes ((max. points/2)+(Race Cost*2)).
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At 7 in the morning I'm looking at your math on that Doc and going um wha? ;D
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No wonder, had a typo, formula was missing a ). Fixed :)
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Doc where are you getting the errata from for Runners Companion? I know that the new cost of Karma Gen is 5 times the new attribute cost, but as far as I can tell race is still free. The only thing I can see is that the MetaType cost is times two which you add to half the total Karma build. In this case half of 750 = 375 + (2 * Metatype cost) is the total amount you can spend on Attributes.
Remember Edge, Magic, Resonance are not included in the Attributes. Those are separate.
So if your Metatype costs 35 build points it is 70 in Karma Gen and you get a whopping total of 375 + 70 = 445 on attributes. Plus all of your Attributes START at the base limit for your MetaType and you buy them from there at Times 5 for the next level.
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German version of the Runners Companion.
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Ah I see
Damn Krauts always getting ahead of the curve!! ;D ;D
J/K Doc
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Does the german version include some kind of official errata or are the changes simply what Pegasus thinks?
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Does the german version include some kind of official errata or are the changes simply what Pegasus thinks?
its the official errata, the latest english printing includes it also, atleast according to one poster at dumpshock.
As far as i undertand it, everytinh in german books is officially aproved by catalyst.
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Does the german version include some kind of official errata or are the changes simply what Pegasus thinks?
German versions never include 'what Pegasus thinks'. As far as I understand it, every change they make has to be and is arranged with and accepted by CCL. Don't know how exclusive german content is handled though.
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Errata for Karmagen(only in latest physical printing of the English book) is that you pay the races BP-cost in karma, also attributes cost 5xnew rating(just like it does when advancing a character with SR4A)
Pay the same as the normal BP cost would be or double it as is mentioned as the normal conversion rate?
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Race BP Cost = Race Karma Cost
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The confusion about the metatype cost comes from the fact that in the original version, you didn't pay for your metatype, but you could add double your metatype cost to the 375 karma you could spend on Attributes. In other words, a troll could spend 375 plus (40 x 2), or 455 karma on Attributes. Metatypes are allowed to spend more because without flat costs, their Attributes are more expensive to raise. A human raising Strength from 1 to 2 pays 10 karma, while a troll raising his Strength from 5 to 6 pays 30 karma.
The errata (which I have heard is in the latest printing, but not online yet), has you pay your metatype cost in Karma (so a troll would pay 40 karma), and changes Attributes to the x 5 multiplier. I assume you would use the lower SR4A costs for bonding weapon foci, too.
It is important to note that all Attributes, including the special ones, are purchased in Step 3, so the limit on how much you can spend includes special Attributes. I originally assumed it worked like build points, where the limit was only for the core Attributes. A lot of people seem to disagree with this, and house rule it to be like build points (I don't house rule that much, but I would lean towards this house rule myself, since this limit seems to screw over awakened humans the most).
Beansidhe, you are not imagining things - the original karmagen system usually resulted in characters far, far more powerful than 400 build point characters. Even with the errata, they still tend to come out a bit better. The ironic thing is that I actually tended to min-max less with karmagen - with such a lavish allocation of points, I could create quirkier characters that would not have been practical to make with build points.
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Thanks for the answers. My wife and I talked about it, and decided to just go down to the local game store and pick up the newest printing of the book (checked the Karma Gen system to ensure it was accurate to what I was hearing). So just got home with it.
A friend of mine decided to run the game instead of doing another system he was thinking about after running Food Fight 4.0 (I ran it, since I have read the rules). Last night (after running Food Fight) he wanted to see how character gen worked. We put together a Troll Bruiser for him in KarmaGen while I made the same under the Karma system. Using the 5x for Attributes and the double race cost (which wasn't correct) his troll came out reasonably specialized and ahead of the same copy (or as close to it as I could) put together with BPs.
With that, I was wondering if what the KarmaGen system says is true, that it will create more generalized characters while the BP system can create specialists better. I felt that the Troll he made was a specialist more than generalist, and the BP system seemed to fail in making him better. I guess since it has been so many years since I have played and the rules change that has occurred, I don't know at what point you would be specialist versus generalist.
Are there any points of advice or sample characters folks might have to post up that would show what kind of character the BP system favors over the KP system? Or is the KP system just generally better?
Thanks for the helpful answers so far. Best wishes, and happy running.
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Karmagen "encourages" well-rounded characters from a purely numerical standpoint because, unlike build points, the costs for skills and Attributes increase as they get higher, rather than staying at a flat rate. So a skill of 2 costs 8 karma or 8 build points, while a skill of 6 costs 44 karma or 24 build points. For the same price of a skill of 6, you could get three skills of 3 and a specialization for one of them. Likewise, for Attributes, getting an Attribute of 3 and an Attribute of 4 costs the same amount as getting a single Attribute at 5.
But even though the higher scores cost more, you still have enough points for them. And for most characters, 750 karma still works out to be more than 400 build points. The only difference is that a specialist will be a bit better than he would be under build points, while a more generalist type of character will be a LOT better than he would be under build points.
As one example of a character type that is not favored by karmagen - infected characters (ghouls, vampires, etc). It is not a metatype, but a quality, so they have to spend double the quality in karma points. Then, since is is not a metatype, they don't have any extra karma points that they are allowed to allocate for their boosted Attributes, which means they won't be able to improve them as high as they would under build points. Another example would be a human with high Edge and high Magic, because special Attributes full within the 375 karma cap (although as I said, a lot of people seem to house rule that).
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ive had very little exposure to karma character creation but its starting to sound very very tempting.
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As soon as I found it, I kicked BP gen right out the front door. And if that bitch ever comes back, I'll shoot him in the head.
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tell us how you really feel Doc
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Now that I am living with Karma Gen? A lot better, thank you for asking :) I like how it allows characters to be suffisticated in their main area of expertise and yet still pack enough 'small skills' and knowledge stuff to really have flavour.
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From what I saw when I was goofing with the two systems, I completely agree with Doc Chaos. The KarmaGen system seems to put together better characters, though I do wish I had some given free Knows/Lang points. I feel like I might be messing up when I spend so much on those. Course, some folks just know stuff.
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Does the german version include some kind of official errata or are the changes simply what Pegasus thinks?
German versions never include 'what Pegasus thinks'. As far as I understand it, every change they make has to be and is arranged with and accepted by CCL. Don't know how exclusive german content is handled though.
Totally & absolutely Right
After we've seen the "damage" Fanpro had done by doing their own thing.
everything Pegasus prints is cleared first with CGL even their new Berlin Sourcebook
so Pegasus has all the Erratta included and is of the newest Standard
with the newest Dance
Medicineman
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As soon as I found it, I kicked BP gen right out the front door. And if that bitch ever comes back, I'll shoot him in the head.
don't be so Harsh on it, Its done the best it could ;D
I've been doing all my ....(Verleihchars... ?)...
When I go to conventions to GM SR4A all the chars for new players are done with the BP rules.
my own Chars are mixed either Karma(700 - 750) or BP(400-420)(sometimes one Method is better sometimes the other)
I think (i'm not quite shure though !) that Karma Gen Chars are more ....well rounded and tend to be less Min/Maxed
JahtaHow
Medicineman
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I generally don't allow Karmagen, even with the SR4.5 errata. It's just too fiddly. When my players complained that BP was too complicated and long, I decided that karmagen was not right for my group.
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Yeah, karmagen doesn't have the same straight costs. But I find I can make a table or two and have most of the skill and Attribute costs right there at hand.
It's too bad the Priority system they put in there is so messed up. It was a (relatively) quick, elegant, and straightforward rule set in SR3, but the SR4 version leaves me cold.
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(sometimes one Method is better sometimes the other)
I never found a single character build where BP would have been better. Could you give me an example? :)
Oh, and no idea about "Verleihchars", sorry. "Schattenstädte" is "Runner Havens".
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750 karma is flat out going to outperform 400 build points most of the time - that is close to doubling the number of points, and there are not as many things that actually cost double the points. Sure, there will be a few builds that will come out costlier in karmagen, but you have to almost deliberately set out to find them (okay, he's a nosferatu, which costs 300 points in karmagen since it is treated as a quality, and he has super-high Logic and Intuition, so he will take a 6 and a bunch of 4's for his knowledge skills...).
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(sometimes one Method is better sometimes the other)
I never found a single character build where BP would have been better. Could you give me an example? :)
Oh, and no idea about "Verleihchars", sorry. "Schattenstädte" is "Runner Havens".
my personal example would be :
"Krakatoa" Hawaian Fomori, Lawyer and Ki-Mage of Mother Nature (self made Possesion Tradition ,about nature, life preservastion, etc ) I made him first with 750 Karma ,than with 410 or 420 BP and I liked him better that way (he had more Pips for Knowledgeskills and you need them as a Lawyer,but that wasn't all :D )
with a pure ,natural Dance
Medicineman
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I couldn't possibly persuade you to send me his sheet...? :)
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No WAHAY !! :)
(not one of my 25 Chars is on my PC .They're all handwritten with an Individuial Char sheet and It would be a Hell of a Job to write them all down. If we'll meet at a conventention I might show him to You)
Hough!
Medicineman
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Yeah, kind of always figured you for the more hands-on approach type ;) Well, as much as I'd like to, but all the conventions are in the north, and me being a southerner... probably won't happen :/