Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Senko on <10-15-16/2255:24>
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First off I couldn't decide if this belonged here or in the conspiracy theories board but I felt this more appropriate, if I was wrong I apologise.
I've been contemplation having some of the great dragons a bit more involved with the megacorps, not to the extent of controlling them but just having permanent "liaisons" assigned to them to help protect the dragons interests or misdirect their opponents. Individuals who can act as a go between for him to major corporations like Sony who are AA or AAA rated if necessary even if that response is just a "My lord Ryumyo doesn't mind what you do in regards to development of the Kurohitsu Village" or "My lord Lofwyr suggested that perhaps rather than developing the Kurohitsu Village into a corporate waste dump it may be more advantageous to all concerned if you converted it into something with less environmental impact like a ski resort.
Even if they're not the type for direct control I can see them wanting a way to indicate their interests from time to time and a quiet word in the ear of a AA Corp can have a lot of impact.
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Well, Lofwyr already controls Saeder Krupp, Lung has interests in Wuxing through his Triad ties, Ryumyo has plenty of influence on the Japanacorps through the Yakuza, Celedyr has big interests in Neo-Net... And the rest most likely have lesser interests of their own all over the place.
As far as liaisons go, they already have some. They're called Voices. They aren't just there as a metahuman mouthpiece meant to convey their words to sound for technological recording; they are the dragon's representative.
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Yea, Lofwyr owns SK pretty much lock, stock, and 2 bloody talons.... but its even worse as there are actually 2 SKs.... there is the SK everyone knows and loves run by the board of directors.... And then there is SK Prime (a division of SK) that Lofwyr personally directs and leads.
Lung has not shown much interest in the corporate structure and prefers to use the Triads as his go-to resource when he needs something done, which probably works out better for him then other dragons thanks to the Loyality Geas on Triad members.... (they talk, they spontaniously bleed out! Very messy but ensures no one else spills the beans).
Celedyr is the most tech savvy Dragon alive and has A LOT of infleunce in Neo-Net... (as I recall the nano virus was partly his doing).
Dragon's influence on the corps however is usually hidden behind multiple shell companies, holdings and investments giving them considerable clout behind the scenes.... which works well for a species that makes plans that take decades to come to fruit....
The most popular Voice was Nadja Daivar who acted as Dunkie's second voice... and became the VP of the UCAS and is a major stake holder in the Draco Foundation.....
The 'Voices' are more then just mouth pieces for the media, they act on their dragons interests and carry out their Will in the metahuman world.... andcare taken VERY seriously by those in the know simply because behind every Voice is the ambition and power of a Great Dragon.
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I see, interesting. I knew Lofwyr owned Saeder Krup didn't know about the rest.
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If you want to get an idea of just how Great Dragons interact with the megas, simply look at Big D's will.
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If you want to get an idea of just how Great Dragons interact with the megas, simply look at Big D's will.
only a Dragon keeps a 5 pound chunk of orichalcum in their sock drawer.....
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The will actually exists? I may need to do a google search when I get home.
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The will actually exists? I may need to do a google search when I get home.
It's an actual BOOK! (seriously, a book)
7122 1-55560-306-8 2nd 1996 2057 Portfolio of a Dragon: Dunkelzahn's Secrets The last will of the great dragon Dunkelzahn
To give you an idea of the power and wealth a Great Dragon has:
The Draco foundation was formed in 2058 from a single gift and request in Dunkie's Will. That SINGLE gift was enough to vault the Draco Foundation to AA Corp status.
Dunkie also left 'Achievement' Gifts in his Will to anyone who could perform certain actions for the 'betterment of meta-humanity'... Such as a large cash and stock grant to the first company that could find/make a non-sapient food source for Ghouls.... Which has gone unclaimed..
There are some rather silly gifts as well.... such as the ¥187 million 'repayment' of a loan from the 1700's.... (which seems to indicate that Dragons have been sleeping during the entire mana fown swing....).
So, yea... its safe to say Great Dragons have almost unimaginable power and clout in the SR universe... So much so, that direct physical force by a Dragon is probably their least effective tool.
(And considering it took an army with anti-dragon tech to give Surrug a bloody nose, is VERY frightening!)
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Lung has not shown much interest in the corporate structure and prefers to use the Triads as his go-to resource when he needs something done
Which, considering how things work in Hong Kong and Canton, basically account to the same thing, as corporations also turn to the Triads when they really need something done.
Ryumyo enjoys a similarly high level of influence in Japan, without needing to resort to puny human concepts such as equity stock and voting rights. They are dragons in China and Japan. When they make a suggestion to a business executive or a politician, it is like Jesus Christ tried to call such people in Italy or the Bible Belt. Sure, the people involved in the topic at hand may not be receptive. But Jesus Christ did not have claws and hitmen.
Celedyr is the most tech savvy Dragon alive and has A LOT of infleunce in Neo-Net... (as I recall the nano virus was partly his doing).
"Lot of influence" meaning owning 13% of the stock and holding the position of chief technology officer. Prior to the Novatech-Erika-Transys Neuronet merger that created Neonet in 2065, he used to own 37% of Transys Neuronet and practically control the corporation (though he first had to wrestle for that control with the Hildebrandt-Kleinfort-Bernal megacorporation).
The will actually exists? I may need to do a google search when I get home.
As a way to save you some time and conveniantly give people here the resource, a copy of Dunkelzahn's Will can be found on Shadowrun official website :
http://www.shadowruntabletop.com/game-resources/dunkelzahns-will/
The formatting may be unpleasant to read, so I'd also point to the Web Archive
https://web.archive.org/web/20080102110841/http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/will1.shtml
Additionnally, Bob "Ancient History" Derrie put up an annotated version at some point, that feature a lot of interesting information.
https://web.archive.org/web/20110119014130/http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/Dunk_Will.htm
It's an actual BOOK! (seriously, a book)7122 1-55560-306-8 2nd 1996 2057 Portfolio of a Dragon: Dunkelzahn's Secrets The last will of the great dragon Dunkelzahn
To defuse any excessive anticipation and avoid disappointment, PoaD:DS is a 114 pages-long, soft-cover book, but the actual will is only 12 pages long. About 15 pages deal with the death of Dunkelzahn, 20 pages gives additionnal information about a number of people and organizations mentionned in the will, and the last 40 pages or so focus on a handful of the will items.
The most popular Voice was Nadja Daivar who acted as Dunkie's second voice... and became the VP of the UCAS and is a major stake holder in the Draco Foundation.....
The Draco foundation was formed in 2058 from a single gift and request in Dunkie's Will. That SINGLE gift was enough to vault the Draco Foundation to AA Corp status.
The Draco Foundation was created immediately after the will release in August 2057, so as to conform to the will regarding certain bequests, and started its operations on September 1st.
The will actually allows Nadja Daviar, as the executor, to "use what funds are necessary from the balance of my estate for the establishment of the Draco Foundation." As far as I remember, there is no assets that is specifically directed to go to the Foundation. Though the will requires a number of large sums to be provisionned, for which it was reasonable to think they would not be delivered before a few years if not more, the Draco Foundation and Nadja Daviar own personal wealth may mostly come from things that are not mentionned in the will.
Also, being a foundation established under UCAS legal system, the DF never filled with the Corporate Court and never received AA rating and megacorporate extraterritorial privileges. Its wealth and influence may have been on par with that of a megacorp, but it wasn't technically one.
There are some rather silly gifts as well.... such as the ¥187 million 'repayment' of a loan from the 1700's.... (which seems to indicate that Dragons have been sleeping during the entire mana fown swing....).
Actually, 34,6 billion UCAS dollars, granted to one Art Dankwalther, which would convert to about 8,6 billion nuyen. The will specifically mention a yearly 1% interest rate, and says conversion and inflation were accounted for. So it would require between 1800 and 2500 years to reach the 34,6 billion mark, with a starting value between 1 and 300 dollars (depending on the weight and estimated value for one gold coin at the time).
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And just a reminder that some of those 'silly' gifts had rather direct causal links to both the Arcology Shutdown and Crash 2.0.
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Not to mention the shaky status of Novatech and its subsequent merger with Transys-Neuronet and Erika to form NeoNET.
Senko, I honestly have a hard time believing you didn't know how intensely dragons were involved with the corporate world - and hearing that you didn't know that The Will was an actual thing boggles my mind.
That stated, yes, I think dragons (especially Great Dragons) have adapted well to corporations. Most have 'domains', that other dragons don't mess with (at least not the stock-buying part), but some have their talons spread wide. The Amazonian Great Dragons are certainly likely to have hooks into MCT, Renraku, and the other Japanacorps, just to make sure they're tracking what's going on next door; Hestaby, before she was stripped, likely had an equally-broad portfolio.
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I knew they were involved I just thought it was more move a claw here . . . . change of stocks there . . . . new ceo over here with new direction . . . employees given reduncancy . . . change of stock around here . . .. achievement of goal. I didn't realize they all already had mouthpieces who could speak for their goals directly to a company with a few expections e.g. Loftwyr.
What can I say about the will I knew it was real as in had major repurcussions on the world I didn't know there was an actual book with a physical copy of it in existence to look up. This I think is a bit of an ongoing problem with this game in that there's a huge amount of backstory and connections and information out there but for someone like me coming in on 5th with very minimal playing of 4th or maybe it was 3rd that game never really got far anyway we just don't know it exists. Alternatively we know it exists in a generic "this happened" sense but don't know there was an actual release dealing with it because there's nothing in 5th to indicate that not even a "list of useful books". Worse we see a rule or description in the 5th ed books that directly counters mechanics which existed in earlier editions and came to the table with a very different view of how something works compared to someone who's been playing since 1st ed. We're right by the current system but we're playing with people who for 4 editions have printed rules showing we're wrong in those ones.
Take Ryoumo till this thread I thought he was a spiritual (as in religious/philosphilcal) dragon who mainly resided in his home and only dealt with Shinto priests. Completely inaccurate going by what was posted but its what I got as an impression from the mentions in the books and I know a LOT of the recommended reading people post here is to earlier editions not the current one to get an understanding of things.
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Thanks for the correction Nath. Its been about 15 years since I read the book and was running off memory.
I actually pulled out the book (cause I am actually home for once) and started reading it again....
It gives you a REALLY good idea of the reach of a Great Dragon especially little lines like :
".... Any Cayman Island of their choice".
And shows just how many plans within plans WITH back up plans a Dragon can actually put in motion with lines like: "...I leave box 412 to be opened...." "...I leave the other 15 boxes"
Question for those in the know:
Did we ever find out what was behind door 5B78 ?
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Senko, you have to remember that Shadowrun has a living history that dates back 25+ years. That is a LOT history to try to fit into a single book.
Going from 1e to 4e you are talking about 40+ books, each 100+ pages long, then there are what, 30+ novels which also contribute to the history of Shadowrun...
The 6th world alminac is the closest summary I've seen done and even that skips HUGE amounts of info!
But really, its no different then any other game system that has a living history. To understand the world of Dragonlance, you had to read 80+ novels! Forgotten Realms? Another 60 novels, and 35 source books (3 of them just on the Gods!).
Does it make it hard on new players? Yes it does. But that is part an parcel of table tops.... and why I will NEVER get involved in the lore of Warhammer 40k. I don't have the free time to read 200 books to learn it all.
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If it helps you, goto wikipedia and type in Shadowrun.
It will tell you every book and edition. From there you can figure out what books may be of interest to you. Obviously you don't need the CRB and ERB books.... but the plot/fluff books come in very handy at understanding the world and the crap in it.
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And just a reminder that some of those 'silly' gifts had rather direct causal links to both the Arcology Shutdown and Crash 2.0.
I disagree.
The only connection between Dunkelzahn's Will and the Renraku Seattle Arcology shutdown is that Dunkelzahn gave Fuchi security head Miles Lanier a seat on Renraku board of directors, giving Lanier accesses he used to channel intelligence to its former boss and friend Richard Villiers which may have included evidence of clandestine operations led against Fuchi Industrial Electronics, allowing Fuchi to file a complaint with the Corporate Court, whose incoming investigation prompted Renraku top scientist "Brightlight" to leave after erasing a large number of archives, which may have contributed to Renraku AI developers failure to properly control the arcology expert program.
That's as direct as you can link the will to the shutdown, and I wouldn't call giving a Fuchi top executive some Renraku stock a silly gift (besides, I'm not any sourcebook ever formally spelled out a connection between Brightlight and AEP project; it is, as far as I know, an assumption).
The will has a slightly less tenuous connection with the Second Crash, as the aforementioned 34 billion dollar bequest was used to fund a operations against Novatech, leading to a major financial event that was instrumental in the coming of the Crash.
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And the first ever Thor strike assassination...
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I knew they were involved I just thought it was more move a claw here . . . . change of stocks there . . . . new ceo over here with new direction . . . employees given reduncancy . . . change of stock around here . . .. achievement of goal. I didn't realize they all already had mouthpieces who could speak for their goals directly to a company with a few expections e.g. Loftwyr.
Conceptualization check.
Dragons - okay, Great Dragons - do not typically have a mouthpiece whose purpose it is is to call up, say, HKB and say, "I want you researching Gummi Worms." (Lesser dragons might, but that's because they haven't achieved the level of subtlety that most GDs utilize. Lofwyr is a significant exception - but he uses his subtlety for events outside his corporation.) Most Great Dragons act in exactly the manner you describe. A suggestion is made via their Voice to an individual. That individual mentions that suggestion to another individual, who in turn mentions it to a third, who comments about 'a suggestion they heard' to a Head of Research, a CFO, a CEO, a VP of Operations, whatever. Something - whatever the GD desired - happens, but with a) enough distance to give him plausable deniability, and yet with b) the people in the know - all of the individuals in the chain - knowing exactly where the 'suggestion' came from. (You can bet that the individuals in that chain are VERY certain to be specific as to whether a suggestion is their own, or something 'from someone they were talking to', meaning 'links in the chain to the Boss'.)
Lung and Ryumyo are well-known in the shadows for having their claws inside specific Chinese or Japanese megacorporations; in the bright light of the SINner, it's far more obscure, because the shadows pay more attention to that sort of thing, and SINners find it much easier to scoff at what are 'obviously' conspiracy theories. That doesn't make them try to appear unrelated to controlling a corporate interest or three.
That's as direct as you can link the will to the shutdown, and I wouldn't call giving a Fuchi top executive some Renraku stock a silly gift (besides, I'm not any sourcebook ever formally spelled out a connection between Brightlight and AEP project; it is, as far as I know, an assumption).
Bzzzt, thank you for playing. ;)
The trapdoor leads directly into a UV host created by the elf Leonardo to watch over the SCIRE Matrix and see if any AIs developed. The Big D somehow learned of it and arranged in his will for someone to find and reveal the information collected by the various programs running on the host.
Leonardo is, of course, Brightlight.
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Ah I see where my suggestion could work. Put the drake acting as per my original post in the second or third step of your chain rather than at the end. Great Dragon directs mouthpiece, mouthpiece relays directions to trusted pawn, trusted pawn relay's it to drake, drake relays it to intermediary, intermediary relays to approrpiate target, appropraite target offers suggestion to corporation.
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Drakes tend to be used more as close assets than as, well, that, unless the drake is a social adept, in which case they get used as ... close assets in social situations. (A 'close asset' being different than a 'deniable asset'.)
Drakes are a) rare, b) valueable, and c) usually powerful (proportionately, anyhow). Since AFAIK it requires the Great Dragon in person to do whatever it is GDs do to drakes to claim them, it really only makes sense that subsequently the drake(s) would be working personally and, even if not directly, at most one stage removed from The Boss, along with frequent meet-and-greets. A drake might not be the corporate Chief Blank Officer to the Great Dragon's CEO/President, but he's at least a senior VP, and probably reports back to the GD directly, and in person.
So while your situation would normally be GD to voice to corporate relation manager to corporate cut-out to senior VP to CEO of corporation, if the Great Dragon needed to get a message to the senior VP or the CEO very quickly - or, more likely, with special emphasis - the drake shows up and says, "My master bids me say to you, the path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you." And the CEO knows that he hath done wrong, and goeth forth, and sins no more.
... sorry. Tarantino swiped my keyboard for a second there.
But the drake shows up and passes a message along - directly but indirectly, because he'd never say who his master was, everything about him would scream 'It's X!!' From his manner of dress, to his behavior, to his way of moving, his mode of address, everything. Or perhaps they'll refer to the 'voting bloc' their master controls. "The Master of the Wu-Tang Clan says ..." or 'the CEO of Trans-Latvian Enterprises desires ...' or whatever. Anyone who tracks such things passionately knows who is being X, Y, and/or Z, and you can bet that even if Damien Knight doesn't know the moment he wakes up with the drake standing at his bedside, he'll have a precis waiting for him next to his morning Cinnabon (TM, owned by Focus Brands, an affiliate of private equity firm Roark Capital Group, an Ares America subsidiary).
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Really the fluff didn't give the impression that Drakes were that important to dragons or usually their hit men (that is what you meant by close asset?), much less rare/valuable/powerful.
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Opti over at the neo-anarcist douse a good job of giving us the history including the big picture stuff. Going from his aztechology feed Bid D did have a big chuck of there stock so it's easy to say yes to the OP's theory. His will was able to put 2 people on boards of directors of AAA corps not to mention a few louse stocks such as 1% of Ares for some of the mars data.
As to some of the silly stuff in the will I still think the best one was the gift to the current holder of the patent for stovetop popcorn.
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That's as direct as you can link the will to the shutdown, and I wouldn't call giving a Fuchi top executive some Renraku stock a silly gift (besides, I'm not any sourcebook ever formally spelled out a connection between Brightlight and AEP project; it is, as far as I know, an assumption).
Bzzzt, thank you for playing. ;)
The trapdoor leads directly into a UV host created by the elf Leonardo to watch over the SCIRE Matrix and see if any AIs developed. The Big D somehow learned of it and arranged in his will for someone to find and reveal the information collected by the various programs running on the host.
I was thinking of a connection in the sense that Brightlight would have been involved in the AEP project. This part just says Brightlight knew about the AEP project (as pretty much anyone as far as 2050 if the Seattle Sourcebook was any indication) and hacked a toilet system controller inside the arcology so as to hide a probe to secretly monitor the AEP. Or there is also a connection between the GRU and the Democrats.
Besides, Dunkelzahn knew about this probe and wrote about it in its will before his death on August 9th, 2057. Brightlight did not start to work with Renraku before May 2057. It is far from certain that Renraku would invite loony hacker Brightlight to work on its most advanced project within three months. So the probe, if it certainly shows Brightlight was interested (or at least intrigued) by the AEP, may well have been installed before any actual involvement. Possibly even before the beginning of his cooperation with Renraku, which might explain why Brightlight willingly gave that corporation a bonus hint to find him when he hacked all the Big Ten.
How Dunkelzahn even knew about the existence of a probe hidden by the supposedly best hacker in the world inside a system operated by a third party is left as an exercise to the reader.
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Really the fluff didn't give the impression that Drakes were that important to dragons or usually their hit men (that is what you meant by close asset?), much less rare/valuable/powerful.
I actually got the exact opposite impression. There's a whole 'drake hunt' by the Great Dragons back during the Comet; when a drake first 'erupts' into his drake form, it sends out a subtle astral pulse that Great Dragons can detect, and they'll send assets (attributable, deniable, or otherwise) to shanghai the drake and bring them to him. In fact, in 3e if you wanted to be a drake, you either automatically received (without any bonus for it) a 6-point Hunted Flaw (Negative Quality), or else you had to purchase 'Dragon Patron' (a 6-point Edge/Positive Quality) to offset it, indicating that you'd basically already been caught and claimed by one of the Great Dragons (or under the protection of someone equally powerful).
And I kind of tried to explain what I meant by 'close asset'; hit man, troubleshooter, personal observer, aide de camp, however you want to put it - and, in turn, whatever the Great Dragon requires at the time. Wants somebody to go to a shareholder meeting, make a speech, and then vote his proxies in a certain way? Wants someone to pay a 'social call' on Rowena O'Malley? Wants someone to slip into the home and 'lean upon' the CFO of Hisako-Turner in the middle of the night? Wants someone to deliver a freshly-made grouping of chocolate-raspberry trifles from Le Cinq in Paris to Zebulon and Ghostwalker in their Denver FRFZ home on Christmas Eve? All of these might be something a close asset - someone clearly and distinctly (and just as importantly, closely) associated with the individual, even if they might not be legally associated - might be called upon to do.
It is far from certain that Renraku would invite loony hacker Brightlight to work on its most advanced project within three months. So the probe, if it certainly shows Brightlight was interested (or at least intrigued) by the AEP, may well have been installed before any actual involvement. Possibly even before the beginning of his cooperation with Renraku, which might explain why Brightlight willingly gave that corporation a bonus hint to find him when he hacked all the Big Ten.
How Dunkelzahn even knew about the existence of a probe hidden by the supposedly best hacker in the world inside a system operated by a third party is left as an exercise to the reader.
Ah, forgot about the timing. However, let me give you a couple of points:
First, Brightlight would have been fascinated by AI. Morgan had been around since 2050, when Twist and Dodger tripped over her and became her X-Factor; Brightlight would have at the very least been aware of her, and been intrigued by the possibilities. I can thus see him creating and hiding the toilet-flushing-observatory (which IMO does not appear to be an actual 'standard' part of the AEP architecture) in the Arcology's AEP-external Matrix. I agree completely with you that he might well have - okay, probably - created the thing well before the Big 8 ultrahack.
Second, just because Renraku may not have placed him directly on the project doesn't mean Brightlight wouldn't've contributed to its peripherals, though at least not its 'core loyalty' code. I can very easily see him sending multiple messages to the AEP programmers suggesting, 'Have you tried this?' or 'Saw the code you were struggling with, see if this patch (PATCH) works.' Brightlight's disappearance at the end of whatever book it was forced Renraku to have to reverse-engineer a LOT of stuff - and Brightlight was the person who'd touched all that stuff. That he could have had a hand (however subtle) in the AEP's programming is possible at the very least, and IMO virtually impossible not to be a certainty.
As for whether or not the Big D's will being 'a cause', well ... see this post (http://www.shadowrun.com/forums/discussion/comment/204715/#Comment_204715), this post (http://www.shadowrun.com/forums/discussion/comment/204780/#Comment_204780), and this post. (http://www.shadowrun.com/forums/discussion/comment/204783/#Comment_204783) (Reading Citizen Joe's posts in-between may be amusing, but he's well beyond 'left field'.)
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I have no played 3rd ed or read that bit about the comet . . .
I kind of wish they'd kept that positive quality in 5th ed as I can see games where you'd want something to offset the required wanted for games where you playing a claimed drake.
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Hey, if you're the GM, make it so.