Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Senko on <01-11-17/1123:24>
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Just something that's been floating around in my head the last few day's. Leaving aside the distance limitation (which since you can give them extended tasks anyway is something I prefer to ignore) what would an allied spirit do with their downtime whlie the summoner is busy, asleep? Do they watch the trid, pop back to the spirit realm for spirit business, sit there and watch you sleep while sustaining an alter temperature spell to save on air conditioning?
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I suppose a large part of it would depend on the spirit. An Ally Spirit should be a fully-fleshed NPC in its own right, and a part of that would be deciding what the spirit likes and dislikes.
Many of them likely would go back to their metaplane, although I'm not certain they can choose to do that (the summoner may be the one who does). In this case, it doesn't matter... No one could truly know what goes on in that time.
If they can only materialize, then they may wander around your living space, doing whatever they feel like. In this case their likes and dislikes would be a big deal.
If they're possession, maybe they remain inside your physical body. Maybe they do something with it. Maybe they find another vessel and spend their time in there.
If they're inhabitation, then it depends on their form. Assuming the stereotypical "cat familiar", maybe they do what alley-cats do and never tell you about it. Or maybe they knock over random shit in your apartment.
This is of course all assuming they don't simply meditate or do something akin to sleeping. Who says spirits don't need or desire rest?
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My cat shaman's ally spirit takes the form of a cat (shock, stun, surprise), and in most ways behaves exactly like you would expect. Knocking shit over, singing him the sing of it's people at 2am, and batting him on the nose to wake him up at 6am every. fragging. day.
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Read romance novels and kick of orgies at college campuses. ;)
I think the last (and only) one that I was in a game with just floated and creepily watched the mage, or in the event that there was someone else there he'd just watch them. Hilarious waking up with a creepy spirit floating about a foot over you looking you in the face.
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Yea, spirits are Sapient, which means they have the full range of human emotions and interests. So a Spirit would do anything it finds enjoyable when not doing something for the mage.
Mine likes to cook (do NOT eat anything she makes!!!) Terrorize the dog, and flirt with security guard to our complex...
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Some interesting suggestions there and amusing ones.
Mine tends to go see sporting events because they enjoy them but the mage doesn't and only goes if she drags them along whereas other interests they tend to share and do together (shopping, movies, etc). Big difference between the two is the spirit is actually better at fashion and has an interest in sports which has led to a few deals being struck on who gets to watch the TRID.
Part of why I want to dump that 100 distance limit for an ally spirit at least for their actions of their own choice. Still there if your giving them a task but if they want to pop down the park and birdwatch they don't need your permission to do it. It opens up a lot more opportunities for a spirit to have its own interests independant of the mage.
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Some interesting suggestions there and amusing ones.
Mine tends to go see sporting events because they enjoy them but the mage doesn't and only goes if she drags them along whereas other interests they tend to share and do together (shopping, movies, etc). Big difference between the two is the spirit is actually better at fashion and has an interest in sports which has led to a few deals being struck on who gets to watch the TRID.
Part of why I want to dump that 100 distance limit for an ally spirit at least for their actions of their own choice. Still there if your giving them a task but if they want to pop down the park and birdwatch they don't need your permission to do it. It opens up a lot more opportunities for a spirit to have its own interests independant of the mage.
I dumped that rule too, and for the same reason. Rumpus (cat shaman's ally spirit) likes to hang out at the cafe next door and sit on the fence so random passers-by can pet him. The cafe owners know Rumpus is a spirit, but he chases off robbers while asking nothing in return but chin scritches, so they tolerate it.
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I dumped that rule too, and for the same reason. Rumpus (cat shaman's ally spirit) likes to hang out at the cafe next door and sit on the fence so random passers-by can pet him. The cafe owners know Rumpus is a spirit, but he chases off robbers while asking nothing in return but chin scritches, so they tolerate it.
Bullet-proof cats are often worth having around for one reason or another.
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you know, I can't find anything that says an Allied Spirit must stay close to the mage.... I can find that for bound spirits - which is tied to their services, but not Ally Spirits... and Ally spirits a NOT bound spirits!
(So, as you can guess, my table has never followed that distance limitation either)
and cats are great. Especially with some salt, pepper and lemon zest!
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First up, I want to point out that Ally Spirits don't have to hang out in the Material world at all. When the master is asleep, or whatever, they can just go to their own native metaplane. So my first response to the "what do ally spirits do in their free time?" is: Spirit Stuff! back in their own realm. Its like asking what the Genie was doing in the lamp for those millenia. Or what that Barbed Devil in D&D was doing before you cast the calling spell.
But, lets go ahead and presume that the Ally spirit is going to stick around in the material world most of the time (for whatever reason):
The only rule that points to Ally spirits staying close to the master is the first line of Ally Spirit Abilities on page 201: "Ally spirits follow standard rules, with the following exceptions:"
None of the exceptions mention lifting the standard spirit range limitation. Spirit Range has its own heading in the Core Rulebook on page 302:Your spirit can’t move farther away from you than your Magic rating x 100 meters. If forced out of this radius, the spirit will try to return as quickly as possible. If you send a spirit beyond this range, it counts as a remote service.
So, yes, an ally can be sent beyond the standard range, counting as a remote service (of which it has an unlimited amount). But following the standard rules for spirits tells us that the Ally won't want to leave that range if it can help it. Yeah, spirits are their own sapient beings, but remember that Ally spirits are literally created from scratch (usually by the master). Their entire existence is formulated ahead of time by the master. The Street Grimoire goes out of its way to reiterate several times how loyal allies are to their master (at least to start with), even going so far as to call them out as "like a lost puppy willing to do anything for its master" (SG, pg 190).
Not saying they can't (or don't) develop their own personalities, quirks, preferences, interests, etc. Just that their entire world starts out centered around their existence purely for and by the sake of its master. This heavily influences the spirit and what it might want to do. At least initially, an ally spirit probably wouldn't even think about straying far from its master, why would it want to? It has an ingrained need to stay close (Spirit Range).
So while I understand the idea of letting your ally spirit do what it wants and let them develop their own 'character' remember that they aren't people. Sapient, yes; but humanoid, no. They are creatures native to a different plane of existence, they have a whole different set of priorities, and Allies are initially programmed to put their Master at the top of that list.
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Not that you're wrong, but keep in mind that shamanic traditions wouldn't say they are created from scratch. If you go for the "write a spirit formula" then it would make sense, but there's also the "undertake a metaplanar quest" method where you search the metaplanes for an appropriate ally formula. Especially for the traditions that believe spirits are not tools of humanity, but rather something humanity must listen to and respect.
Those ones would likely have more of their own personality beyond being designed to unconditionally love their summoner. Not that they wouldn't also begin fully devoted, just that they would be a bit more independent, I imagine, as their summoner sees spirits as "at least equals, if not more in the spirit's favor" compared to a hermetic who sees it more as "a creature from another world I have taken as a partner"
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And those spirits that were formulated through metaplanar quest would probably be even more likely to just pop back to their home metaplane when not otherwise occupied by their master's bidding.
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Not that you're wrong, but keep in mind that shamanic traditions wouldn't say they are created from scratch. If you go for the "write a spirit formula" then it would make sense, but there's also the "undertake a metaplanar quest" method where you search the metaplanes for an appropriate ally formula. Especially for the traditions that believe spirits are not tools of humanity, but rather something humanity must listen to and respect.
Those ones would likely have more of their own personality beyond being designed to unconditionally love their summoner. Not that they wouldn't also begin fully devoted, just that they would be a bit more independent, I imagine, as their summoner sees spirits as "at least equals, if not more in the spirit's favor" compared to a hermetic who sees it more as "a creature from another world I have taken as a partner"
Not only the shamanic tradition I'm pretty sure that most traditions would have another explanation as to where they come from. In fact I think it's mainly the hermetic point of view that they are created from scratch.
Other than that I agree with Kiirnodel that it's more likely that they would either stick around their master or go back to their native metaplane when they are "off duty ", at least until they started developing more of an individual personality.
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(Remember, some of us have had our Ally Spirits for a really LONG time :D)
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There's also the matter of their being an ally spirit in the first place by which I mean they might be interested in the material world for their own reasons. So they don't want to go back to the spirit world and do spirit stuff they want to stay here, get lots of chin scratches and chase mice.
While they aren't human there are entire spirit realms identical or close to our world at various points in its history described in the source books so just because their spirits doesn't necessarily mean their as alien in thought as some like to play them. As also said many traditions especially those similar to the original shamanism would see them as a spirit from the spirit world not something made from scratch.
You're right about no exception for the spirit distance but from my point of view removing that opens up more role-play options for the spirit and affects nothing mechanically because unlike most bound spirits they have infinite services. Still that's a debate for another thread so it's the last I'll say on the subject here.
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Creating a spirit formula might be different to each tradition. Some might view it like the true love spell from Practical Magic, where she listed out all the unique features of this person.
Either way, it is still creating a spirit whose existence hinges on the concept that their primary purpose here is to serve/be partner to/guide the magician who serves as their master.
I don't have any issue with the idea that after years and years the ally will develop their own interests. I've seen situations where players' have seen their own ally grow and develop to the point that the Magician sets them free and they became a Free Spirit. But even in that situation, it still hung around the original magician because they were friends.
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One thing I should mention about Rumpus is that while there isn't a distance limitation, it doesn't like to stray far from the shaman. The cafe is about as far as it'll go barring extraordinary circumstances. Nip treats his ally with the upmost respect, seeing Rumpus as an equal or even his better.
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Ok one more comment to explain my reasoning a little since It might just be me. To me part of the whole primary purpose is to serve the summoner causes the seperate interests in the first place. That is if I just want tasks done I can summon a spirit for that, get one who's willing and pay their request. For an ally spirit though I want a friend as we are going to be together a very long time. Lots of common interests sure but also some different ones and different viewpoints.
Other people might want the Master and Servant type relationship but I want an ally. Someone who'll have my interests in mind but won't always agree with me "Yes, it's hot and you just want to laze in the air-conditioning but I'm not letting you skip our daily jog you need the exercise.". Someone with their own views and opinions so we can carry on a conversation without me knowing what they'll say. Yes we both wanted to see Moana and the new resident evil movies but we enjoyed different parts of them. Someone who can help me in my weak areas "For this kind of meeting you should wear this outfit." I want someone who'll slap their hand over my mouth and tell me to stop talking if needed not just blindly back me up. Most of all I don't want something that pops up sustains/assists some spells then vanishes back to its spirit realm.
If you see what I mean?
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Just occurred to me but wouldn't moving more than 100 feet also cover going to the spirit realm as it's in another dimension? Genuine question as I said I prefer to drop the limit entirely so I'm not sure where those who don't draw the limit and why.
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The current character I am playing is of the Psionic Tradition. He's made a Man spirit who is an extension of his 'mental prowess.' Where the Mysad focuses more on the more physical side of Mystic Adept, the Ally likes to engage in mental debates. She (that's what Shakespeare calls her since it is rude as he views it as part of himself manifest) often helps teach his college courses or sometimes debates with students during some parts of the cariculum.
In combat she focuses on the magic slinging and combat support while Shakespeare zooms in with his shotgun and rips stuff up.
I know allied spirits are powerful (in the infinite services way), but does creating the formula cost karma? When I read SG it made it seem that you 'set' the karma cost when actually summoning it. Or is it that you pay the karma to make the formula and another chunk to summon?
Also... does spirit whisperer +1 extra force work on them or are they a different kind of beast entirely?
Edit: added content
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My understanding is that developing the formula itself costs no karma that only gets paid when you actually summon them. What the formula does is determine what you summon spirit type, force, abilities, skills and so on. Most important in determining a spirits karma cost is its force the more powerful the more it costs although I think there are a few exceptions that can increase it such as extra forms.
Can't help on spirit whisperer as I've never used it.
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So allies can in fact have more than one manifested form?
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Materialized form, not manifested (manifesting is the psychic projection, materialization is the physical form).
Step 2 of Creating an Ally Spirit Formula on SG pg 201. Materialization spirits can have additional forms for +2 karma each. Inhabitation and Possession spirits' forms are determined by the vessel. But Inhabitation can use additional forms if they get a True Form merge.
And in response to the karma costs question, making the formula costs no karma (only time and effort). You determine the karma cost of the Ally during the formula creation, but only pay it to complete the ritual to conjure it.
The karma cost is based on the Force, but additional features cost extra karma. Like extra forms, powers, skills, and spells.
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So allies can in fact have more than one materialized form?
Fixed. I always mix up those two.
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As Kiirnodel says, yes they can....
And it can be very useful! My ally has 3 forms available to it. Its 'regular' humanish form, A realistic human form, and what it calls its 'war form'....
Each has its own use and purpose.... its regular spirit form for when it just doesn't care.
Its realistic form for when guile, subterfuse or charm is needed and Spirits are 'unwelcome'.
Its 'warform' for when combat is going on for a psychological edge.
<note that whatever form a spirit takes, it has NO bearing on its stats or combat effectiveness. It is purely a Roleplaying Tool. Nothing more.>
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I thought they were always realistic (except when they deliberately aren't) given the description in ally spirits that is they don't have the usual semi transparent spirit form. Mine has adult woman, adult man teenage woman, youg girl. It was expensive but it's been worth. I also wanted cat or fox form but it was pointed out this is a spirit of man and while different human forms are acceptable an animal one is not. They also look related I.e. All blond haired and blue eyed.
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All ally spirits gain the Realistic Form power (page 198). This gives a Materalize spirit the ability to turn into a single form that seems completely real (a human form would have a heartbeat and regular breathing rate, etc) in addition to their "normal" materialized form (maybe "native form" would be more accurate). For Possession spirits, this power means that there is not clear visual indication that someone has been possessed, where as normally I believe they would have some flashy supernatural aura type stuff going on.
It doesn't say if the extra forms you can buy are realistic or not... I suppose it'd be up to the GM.
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I always looked at them as optional steps. I.e they get 1 form free (materialization type) and can purchase extras e.g. Blond haired, blue eyed girl and blond haired, blue eyed man then they can choose whether to have them appear as a normal spirit does or in their realistic form. However those two options hazy/realistic aren't forms as such but merely the level to which those forms are manifested.