Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: dresdran on <01-26-17/1823:08>
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So here I am once again to pester you all with questions and pleas for advice. This time it's because my entire runner group got annihilated by piss-poor planning and freaking flashbang traps and grenade launchers. So because everyone in the party is either completely dead, desperately trying not to drop any blocks of animal fat, or are in such a deep hole that they will never see the light of day we all decided to make a new team and switch roles a wee bit, unfortunately for me (the relatively new guy) this ended up with me having to make a decker because the techno from the last group figured that matrix stuff was not his forte. With the context out of the way here we go with the begging.
What stats and gear are great for deckers (possibly combat deckers) and what advice can you all give me in order for me to not slow my group down to a crawl while I try and figure out the matrix and all of it's lovely actions. I'm thinking of making my new guy a human combat decker that is a part of the Reality Hackers (if that group rings any bells), everything else is up in the air since I feel like my first guy I made for this new role turned into more of a face that happened to be great with technology and thus I am unsure as to what kind of decker I want to make.
Edit: Forgot to mention this, we can use Sum to Ten and the game is set in Montreal.
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If you don't want to play a Decker, don't.
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Yeah. Really, the decker mini-game should be outsourced if you don't have fun being a decker.
A good agent or a decker contact can take care of that part easily enough.
That said, if you want to be a combat decker, you'll find that the souped up cyberarm is usually the basis for combat abilities, so you can invest more heavily in LOG, INT and WIL, leaving AGI and STR to the cybernetic side.
Alternatively you can also do drone rigging on the side and install a rigger interface to jump into an anthro drone, allowing you to leave four attributes at the wayside, while you go about being a robot hacker.
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One thing to keep in mind when you build a Decker is that you can't really have a "half-decker", it's generally all or nothing if you want to survive in the Matrix and particularly in Hosts. What I mean is that most of your resources, skills and attributes will go into Decker's skills so you won't have much left for a secondary speciality. Now it's still possible to have one : Decker/Rigger, Decker/Face (Profiler Quality do wonders), Decker/Medic…
For a Combat Decker, as Jack_Spade said, your best bet is to pick up a Cyberarm or two and use a gun to go with it. You can even add a melee option by either boosting your Arm STR or using a Stun Baton or Monofilament Whip.
As for what you need as a Decker :
Attributes
- INT : Used for your Matrix Initiative and your Matrix Perception and Search. Matrix Perception is probably the one matrix action you will use the most.
- LOG : Used for pretty much all non-defensive Matrix actions.
- WIL : Really important to resist Data Spikes and other source of Biofeedback (Dumpshock) as well as some aggressive Matrix actions.
Skills
Vaguely sorted by usefulness
- Hacking : This skill is the one that makes the difference between a casual user and a Hacker. It is mostly used to slap MARKs with Hack on the Fly but this control over MARKs is the essence of a Hacker.
- Computer : This is your break and butter skill, you will use it for EVERYTHING! You can't really be a Hacker if you don't know how to use Computers right? Anyway it is use for Matrix Perception, Matrix Search and a tons of Matrix actions.
- Electronic Warfare : Although it's not the skill you will use the most, when you need it, you need it high. The two most use are likely Hide and Control Device. If you invest a lot in this skill it's worth to mention that it can replace Intuition with the use of Cameras/Scanners.
- Cybercombat : Secondary Skill. Most hackers prefer going sneaking with Sleaze actions but sometimes a Data Spike is still the best way to get somewhere.
- Hardware : You need some points in Hardware for those time when you have to Jack Out linklocked. Appart from that you don't really need it unless you plan to Change Ownership a lot or to face non-matrix connected Maglock.
- Software : Mostly use for Data Bombs. Don't dump it completely unless you have someone else in your team to take care of those.
Gear
- Deck : Your most important and expensive piece of Gear. You use it to get into the Matrix and it sets the limit for your actions so make sure to buy a good one. If you are a bit low on nuyen the Little Hornet (Data Trails) is a good deal when it comes to Quality/Cost.
- Commlink : Getting a good commlink is always a good idea and it often has a better Firewall than your deck to slave stuff on it. It's even possible to add a Dongle for those places where you have to left your deck behind.
- Jammer : The opposition is trying to mess with your job? Send them some noise right in the face with a Directional Jammer.
- Tag Eraser : When you need to turn down a device quickly, even if it means bricking it, a tag eraser is your best friend.
- Cyberdeck Modules, Electronic Modifications, Electronics Accessories… : All those little thing that you can add to custom your Gear and give you an extra edge. Don't hesitate to invest some nuyen there as well.
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I did kind of want to bring in my Christian conjurer (the one from my last post) but I thought that since this is a group that knows how new I am at Shadowrun I might as well try and learn how to deck. Besides I was eventually going to play a decker, I make too many characters in games for me to not eventually make a decker or a techno. How much nuyen are you guys talking about, exactly? Are we talking priority B or possibly A? I've heard deckers can be expensive but I'd love to get a number for future reference for when my muse smashes into me and tells me to make something.
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There is no definite answer, it can vary depending on what your decker will do on the side. If you want to be good at meat space fighting you will need some wares : Cyberarm, Muscle Toner, Wired Reflexes or whatever. All that can easily bump Resources to A. On the other hand a Face Decker won't require much more gear than a Deck and can get away with Resources B or C but will absolutely needs skill A to fit all the social + hacking.
I think that a Decker need at least Resources C (maybe with some Karma invested). Of course it's possible to build a lower budget Decker but he won't be really efficient at the start considering that the cheapest Deck (with a decent array) is 49500¥.
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I go priority A money with every decker. The good decks costs about 200.000 (Tsurugi or Microtronica Azteca 300). Then you will want lots of bioware and cyberware. (If you choose a worse deck, you will be hampered by low limits). Skills B is preferable but Skills C is doable. Human is a good choice because Edge is more important for a decker than for any other role.
I have a combat decker in chummer with A money, A atts, C skills, E meta E magic. (Active hardwire rating 6 for Hardware helped the bad skills somewhat.)
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No offense intended but a Little Hornet w/using 4 electronic parts to modify the array to 6-3-1-1 along with perfect time /quick config/overclocker qualities is good enough... most starting deckers aren't throwing 22+ dice on tests. I suppose if you're an adept-decker,yeah...but before Jack-Spade yells at me, I wouldn't recommend that hybrid to a new player.
So if you really want to be a decker-face with a respectable combat option I'd suggest skills A resources B attributes C Attributes...
The cyber-arm cheese- AGI 9 synthetic limb is around 55k
The Little Hornet modified is about 91k
So that leaves you around 84k for cyber programs/other 'ware/SIN/weapons etc.
If you are going for just combat and decking then Skill B is good enough..
GL with your character.
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Great to know. I'm not doing a face decker right now but I'll keep all of this in mind.
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I was working on this a little while back, it still needs to be flushed out some, as it lacks full karma expenditures and gear, but it should give you the general idea.
It's not the bleeding edge of decking, but should competent. You can always swap hacking over cybercombat if that's more your image. Combat wise it should be functional at most tables but not super strong. Needs some solid armor. Init wise it's on the low end for meat space fighting, should be decent decking wise. If you're going to deck just understand the basics of cybercombat, program interaction, and ASDF values. Given that in most situation ASDF values represent limits, and static values, having high averages will take you further then then have maxed single stat. Get in get out. Understand Matrix perception, and why it matters very clearly. Understand the risk vs reward of Hot Sim vs Cold Sim vs AR. Talk with your GM and make sure you understand his/her take on decking. Understand how to repair bricked gear, and how your gm plans to handle that.
Sum to 10 Resources 4 Attributes 3 Skills 3 Race 0 Magic 0
B 3
A 2
S 2
R 3(6)
L 6(7)
I 5
W 5
C 2
Edge 3
Initiative 11+2D6
Qualities-
Common Sense -3
Brand Loyalty (Product-Ares) -3
Ninja Vanish -5
Online Fame -4
Codeslinger (Brute Force) -10
Overclock 5 (-10 karma)
Creature of Comfort +10
Code of Honor +15
Skills- 36/5
Pistols 6(7) (Heavy Pistol +2) 7
Cybercombat 6 (Persona +2) 7
Unarmed 6(7) (Cyber Implant +2) 7
Hacking 5
Electronic Warfare 6
Electronics Skill Group 5
Etiquette 3 (Matrix Etiquette +2) 4
Cyberware
Datajack (1) 0.1
Cybereyes 2 (14) 0.3
(Flare Compensation, Image link, Low Light Vision, Smartlink, Thermographic)
Cerebral Booster (31.5) 0.3
Wired Reflexes 1 (39) 2
Reaction Enhancer 2 (26) .6
Reflex Recorder (Pistol, Unarmed) (28) 0.2
Full Arm (Agi 9, Str 5) (71) 1
(Enhancement Agi 3 [3], Cybergun Modification (Ares Predator) [6], Shock Hand [4])
210k (4.5)
Combat Pools:
Pistols (Attribute 9+Skill 9+Smartlink 2+Quality 1) 21 [Acc 7] Damage 6S(e) AP -6 Clip 15
Unarmed (Attribute 9+Skill 9) 18 [P-Limit 6] 9S(e) AP -5 Charges (10)
Cash 450k
Gear
Deck
Renraku Tsurugi (214,125)
Commlink
Transys Avalon 5
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How about splurging for getting a Yak Killer if I had an A for resources? Seems rather appropriate for someone who is in the Reality Hackers and it seems to have a stat array similar enough to the Little Hornet. Also I have an extremely noobish question, what is the significance of the device rating for commlinks and cyberdecks? Can't seem to find where it says what it means.
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It forms the cap for how many slaved devices you can have on it and for comms it defines the DP and firewall stat
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So what would you all recommend in terms of programs for this guy to have? There's quite a few.
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Considering how (comparatively) cheap programs are? ALL of them.
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I feel the following is probably the best all around set up for a Combat Decker setting up priorities table using Sum-2-10
4-Cash = $450K
3-Attr = 20+8
3-Skills = 36/5g
0-Human = 3 Edge
0-Mag/Res = 0
It allows for the following very basic set up.
Around $200K in Deck, $200K in Cyber, $50K is remaining gear.
Cyber Arm w/ high Agility for sure & some Armor/STR as well. Built in Cyberdeck & Comlink-6 are a must have for concealment.
Bod-3, Agi-1, Rea-5, Str-1, Wil-5, Log-5, Int-6, Cha-2
10/20 Karma can boost those 1's to 2's &/or a single point of Muscle Replacement can take them to 2 or 3.
Cyber can boost Logic further.
Wired-1 is fairly cheap, as is Reaction Enhancers &/or Boosted Reflexes which will guarantee you 2-3 actions a turn.
Skills 36/5g is something I would normally set up as follows....
5G
6S
6S
6S
6S
6
1S
5G is for Electronics or Cracking
6S is for a Firearm of some time, Automatics is always basic & solid.
Other 6S are skills opposite the Electronics/Cracking group set.
1S can be useful for Groundcraft/Wheeled or Software/Databomb
6 is good for Perception
If you have a single skill left at some point then I suggest Sneaking/Urban, Con/Fasttalk, or even FirstAid to give you some added ability.
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Yak Killer has a locked array. You can't switch between the matrix attributes. This makes it a bad deck. Go with the Microtronica Azteca 300 if you have 200.000 to spend. The Device rating for cyberdecks decides (among other things) how many programs can be run at the same time.
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So what would you all recommend in terms of programs for this guy to have? There's quite a few.
@450 a pop per program, yes all of them.
Yak Killer is 13R and as was pointed out it's stat locked. So even if it wasn't 13R I'd say no.
My base set would be something like Hammer, Baby Monitor/Decryption, and Armor. But all of them have uses, might as well have them around.
Decking is really something you should think about for awhile, and consider what works for your character Image. There should always be more solutions then just Dataspike. But at the same time, No reason not to just dataspike, if it gets the job done no strings attached.
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Yeah, I remembered about the special cyberdecks after I typed that. Got myself an Azteca 300 instead and as for the programs I bought the lot of them. I've also got a lovely MCT Blue Defender (with a Receiver dongle) to slave stuff to as well as a Nixdorf Sekretar (mostly as a backup device but also for the lovely Data Proc. plus Cable Tap dongle). Got to be prepared.
Edit: So what are the advantages to the specialty decks?
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They tend to be less expensive for their rating/stats.
If you are also a more specialized decker (you use cybercombat exclusively over hacking).... they can be useful.
Or, if you have an agent, you can run the agent on the specialized deck for the agent to help you with specialized tests.
But mostly, I think they make more sense for more fleshed out NPCs/spiders. (Ex. When your decker gets wiped out by Corps Spiders and you don't get how they could keep so many hits, your GM could honestly tell you that they had Ring of Light specials.)
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The reality is having a 1 is a dangerous liability. It's easy to get a 7 or even a 8 from a 6 with use of programs and overclock. But taking a 1 to 2 is basically useless. Given the hacking pools are difficult to modify beyond the +2 from hot sim makes getting those pools much above basic attribute+skill to be a very inefficient. Which means having as many 5-6's in ASDF is much better as you get more effect from values going into static values, and also serves as decent limits is a lot more effective and efficient then having one higher value and one very low value. Even using quick swap to juggle around you will be weak somewhere.
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Little Hornet with a couple Program Carriers and the Overclocker Positive Quality is all you'll ever need for a Sleaze Decker. Matrix Actions are Complex Actions, you'll only be using one stat for your limit at a time. Focus on Sleaze actions and leave your highest number in Sleaze, leave the 2nd highest in Firewall. On those occasions you need to be doing Data Processing or Attack move the Sleaze over for that action, move it back when you're done with that one action. And really the only Attack action you'll be doing is breaking file encryption, toss a point of Edge at it if you really need to keep your Sleaze up. Or grab Perfect Time and swap at the start of your action, then back when you're done.
Seriously, 200k for a deck isn't by any stretch required.
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The reality is having a 1 is a dangerous liability. It's easy to get a 7 or even a 8 from a 6 with use of programs and overclock. But taking a 1 to 2 is basically useless. Given the hacking pools are difficult to modify beyond the +2 from hot sim makes getting those pools much above basic attribute+skill to be a very inefficient. Which means having as many 5-6's in ASDF is much better as you get more effect from values going into static values, and also serves as decent limits is a lot more effective and efficient then having one higher value and one very low value. Even using quick swap to juggle around you will be weak somewhere.
I've been told that the way the game mechanics work, you really only ever need two deck attributes at a time. So as long as you can switch them out twice per turn you can always have the two best attributes available where you need them.
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The reality is having a 1 is a dangerous liability. It's easy to get a 7 or even a 8 from a 6 with use of programs and overclock. But taking a 1 to 2 is basically useless. Given the hacking pools are difficult to modify beyond the +2 from hot sim makes getting those pools much above basic attribute+skill to be a very inefficient. Which means having as many 5-6's in ASDF is much better as you get more effect from values going into static values, and also serves as decent limits is a lot more effective and efficient then having one higher value and one very low value. Even using quick swap to juggle around you will be weak somewhere.
I've been told that the way the game mechanics work, you really only ever need two deck attributes at a time. So as long as you can switch them out twice per turn you can always have the two best attributes available where you need them.
The "two attribute rule" is a little misleading. Sure, you can shuffle things around on your turn to maximize whatever limit is attached to your test for that turn, but that doesn't take into account the ways in which your attributes (notably Firewall and Sleaze) matter on other people's turns. Dumping Data Processing is...sort of safer? The real risk there is you either lose an Action Phase or you drop your initiative below your opponent's so he goes last on the current IP and first on the next IP.
Shuffling Matrix attributes (and so some extent cyberprograms) is a skill test for players. There's no single golden rule that's always applicable.
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The whole point is that you have the Perfect Time quality (I think that's what it's called, if memory serves) so that you have two free actions each phase, and you have the program that lets you reconfigure *everything* with a free action. So you start off by reconfiguring everything for your turn, do whatever it is you're doing on your turn, then reconfigure everything back to what it was before the enemy has *their* turn, so your ADSF and programs are set up for defense again.
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IMO, Perfect Time is overkill-ish. You can put your 2nd highest stat in Firewall and your Highest in whatever action you're needed to do, as often as not it's Sleaze. Unless you're literally in the middle of some crazy matrix Knife fight it shouldn't really matter. And when it comes to Matrix Dog Fights, just don't.
Achieve your objective. Re-boot. Get Paid.
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I feel the following is probably the best all around set up for a Combat Decker setting up priorities table using Sum-2-10
4-Cash = $450K
3-Attr = 20+8
3-Skills = 36/5g
0-Human = 3 Edge
0-Mag/Res = 0
It allows for the following very basic set up.
Around $200K in Deck, $200K in Cyber, $50K is remaining gear.
Cyber Arm w/ high Agility for sure & some Armor/STR as well. Built in Cyberdeck & Comlink-6 are a must have for concealment.
Bod-3, Agi-1, Rea-5, Str-1, Wil-5, Log-5, Int-6, Cha-2
10/20 Karma can boost those 1's to 2's &/or a single point of Muscle Replacement can take them to 2 or 3.
Cyber can boost Logic further.
Wired-1 is fairly cheap, as is Reaction Enhancers &/or Boosted Reflexes which will guarantee you 2-3 actions a turn.
Skills 36/5g is something I would normally set up as follows....
5G
6S
6S
6S
6S
6
1S
5G is for Electronics or Cracking
6S is for a Firearm of some time, Automatics is always basic & solid.
Other 6S are skills opposite the Electronics/Cracking group set.
1S can be useful for Groundcraft/Wheeled or Software/Databomb
6 is good for Perception
If you have a single skill left at some point then I suggest Sneaking/Urban, Con/Fasttalk, or even FirstAid to give you some added ability.
Why does your a tribute choice have a +8?
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Why does your a tribute choice have a +8?
Oh, that was just me noting the base 8 that all humans have by starting with 1's across the board.
B gets you 20 points for 28 total
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I think that the Erika is enough. It gets the job done and the difference from little hornet is not worth the chargen resources. There is the smoke and mirrors that helps with sleaze and while cybercombat is a bit meh but as the decker progresses you can upgrade. I'd rather have a limit of 5-6 and so many dice that I reliably reach it, than have a limit of 8 and 12 dice... just saying.
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I think that the Erika is enough. It gets the job done and the difference from little hornet is not worth the chargen resources. There is the smoke and mirrors that helps with sleaze and while cybercombat is a bit meh but as the decker progresses you can upgrade. I'd rather have a limit of 5-6 and so many dice that I reliably reach it, than have a limit of 8 and 12 dice... just saying.
Don't you want Sleaze jacked up as high as possible so it's harder to spot you?
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The reality is having a 1 is a dangerous liability. It's easy to get a 7 or even a 8 from a 6 with use of programs and overclock. But taking a 1 to 2 is basically useless. Given the hacking pools are difficult to modify beyond the +2 from hot sim makes getting those pools much above basic attribute+skill to be a very inefficient. Which means having as many 5-6's in ASDF is much better as you get more effect from values going into static values, and also serves as decent limits is a lot more effective and efficient then having one higher value and one very low value. Even using quick swap to juggle around you will be weak somewhere.
I've been told that the way the game mechanics work, you really only ever need two deck attributes at a time. So as long as you can switch them out twice per turn you can always have the two best attributes available where you need them.
You can play that game, and for many things it can work. But perfect timing stat plan isn't ideal. You will be weak somewhere, that 1 doesn't actually go away. The question is what will your character be doing with decking? How often will they be up against spiders or demi's, sprites or AIs? IC and comps are reasonably predictable, but intelligent opposition is not.
Now that all said I admit I really like Cybercombat in 5th, it's very possible to build something that will brick gear or wear even through a fairly serious firewall. Yes that sort of attack method has its weaknesses. But if you're looking for perfect method you're playing the wrong game. I think the concept of rolling around cybercombating your way through the shadows is lots of fun.
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I think that the Erika is enough. It gets the job done and the difference from little hornet is not worth the chargen resources. There is the smoke and mirrors that helps with sleaze and while cybercombat is a bit meh but as the decker progresses you can upgrade. I'd rather have a limit of 5-6 and so many dice that I reliably reach it, than have a limit of 8 and 12 dice... just saying.
Don't you want Sleaze jacked up as high as possible so it's harder to spot you?
Sometmes you just feel like using fork and data spikes - there is the hide action also so recovery can be done.
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I think that the Erika is enough. It gets the job done and the difference from little hornet is not worth the chargen resources. There is the smoke and mirrors that helps with sleaze and while cybercombat is a bit meh but as the decker progresses you can upgrade. I'd rather have a limit of 5-6 and so many dice that I reliably reach it, than have a limit of 8 and 12 dice... just saying.
Erika absolutely works, especially with Mods, Programs and Qualities. IMO, for a Resources A Decker the price difference between the Erika and the Little Hornet was worth it. For Deckers on a tighter budget, the Erika gets you by, but it's a little more micro managing of your Programs, and some of the Qualities (Overclocker, Perfect Time, Data Anomaly, ect) become more important to help juggle.
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On resources A then totally agree my deckers are usually resource D or C, but I like them awakened.