Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Jonny Reload on <09-10-10/0404:54>
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Now, according to this Spell, after you beat the Objects Resistance, each net success gives you a +1 bonus to operating the device...
If you pick up a comlink, can you now hack and program with it?
If you pick up a gun, can you shoot with it?
It also removes the -1 penalty for Defaulting if you don't have the skill in it at all but, this is probably one of the most vaguest written spells out there and I wanted to know if any of the writers or editors for Shadowrun put out any comments or errata on this Spell.
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Sorry to say the books and all the errata I have says nothing to make it any clearer.
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I mean it's not one of those 50/50 questions where it's either pure cheese or underpowered, it just leaves everything so vague and open to interpretation that it could be used in so many different ways. ???
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By no means official but for myself I rule "operating a device" as normal use for an object. If its a pistol, shoot it. If it's a commlink loading with hacking software, hack with it. If it's a helicopter, fly it. Operate the device for it's intended purpose.
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Yes, you get bonus dice to operate the object in question.
It starts getting nasty if you specialize in using the spell or have a spirit give you some sorcerous assistance in casting it. With enough hits, you can go from total newb to The Man With No Name in proficiency.
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Don't forget you have to sustain the spell. And I doubt it works in the matrix : you can analyse a physical device, but you can't analyse a program.
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Don't forget you have to sustain the spell. And I doubt it works in the matrix : you can analyse a physical device, but you can't analyse a program.
That's why you Summon a Spirit of Man and give him Innate Spell so he can sustain it as just using one of his powers.... Basically, Mages are the "Dial Up Programs" from The Matrix "Tank, I need a pilot program for a B-212 helicopter" :D
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Ok after speaking to some other GM's at dumpshock and etc., this isn't as broken as I first thought it to believe due to the Object Resistance factoring in which basically takes away your first 6 successes on any Gun or Computer you want to use.... Still, it's quite an awesome spell if you start increasing your Magic to get crazy successes.
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Basically, Mages are the "Dial Up Programs" from The Matrix "Tank, I need a pilot program for a B-212 helicopter" :D
Technomancers do the same thing with better efficiency, followed swiflty by magicians who can summon tasks and guardians spirits.
This spell clearly isn't broken compared to them.
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A summoning specialist can whistle up a spirit of Man with the Innate Spell ability set to outrageous levels. The specialist in my game summons force 9 and 10s constantly and suffers very little (if any) drain from doing so. The spirit can cast the analyze device spell with 27 dice for force 9 and 30 dice for force 10 with edge, or can just buy a reroll with each casting (which drops the pools to 18 and 20, respectively). The spirit can then sustain the spell while the summoner enjoys the, rather massive, benefits.
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A spirit is generally under the control of the magician who conjured it, but to one degree or another it is still an independent entity. Even while bound and compelled to obey, a spirit has its own fate and its own free will—as such, a magician cannot compel a spirit to use (or not use) Edge on a given test. Spirits will likely use Edge to save themselves from disruption or banishment, or to assist with the completion of a goal important to the spirit or if completion of a service demands. Any use of Edge is at the discretion of the gamemaster.
So he should only roll 18 or 20 dices, no edge.
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So he should only roll 18 or 20 dices, no edge.
Edge depends upon the ST call and if he's been good to that spirit or has the favor of it, but having a spirit use Analyze Device can net you WAY more dice then the Bioware Skillwires Echo (and ontop of that, you can't use edge with Activesofts, even if it is a Complex Form)
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Spirit's use of Edge depends only on the GM's will, that's all. But of course, if the GM allows the spirit to use his edge each time the summoner needs it, it may occur little changes in game balance.
I know very little about technomancers, but as far as I know, they can too fix permanently these skills with a ridiculous karma cost, and they're still able to thread them in order to up them if needed.
And anyway, if you can summon such powerfull spirits, then with a task or guardian spirit in a possession tradition, 18 to 20 dices is the minimum you'll roll when using the skill. Far above what you'll get with the spell.
I don't say it's a bad use of the spell, it's interesting, but considering the summoners' abilities (wow, no drain from a 9-10 spirit, without edge it means an average pool of 18 to 24 dices, nice stats !), it's far from "very powerful".
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Spirit's use of Edge depends only on the GM's will, that's all. But of course, if the GM allows the spirit to use his edge each time the summoner needs it, it may occur little changes in game balance.
I know very little about technomancers, but as far as I know, they can too fix permanently these skills with a ridiculous karma cost, and they're still able to thread them in order to up them if needed.
And anyway, if you can summon such powerfull spirits, then with a task or guardian spirit in a possession tradition, 18 to 20 dices is the minimum you'll roll when using the skill. Far above what you'll get with the spell.
I don't say it's a bad use of the spell, it's interesting, but considering the summoners' abilities (wow, no drain from a 9-10 spirit, without edge it means an average pool of 18 to 24 dices, nice stats !), it's far from "very powerful".
I just said that it was a GM's call :-\ If your a Spirit Worshipping Shaman who's been role playing very kindly to Spirits, giving them breaks and not even making them hang around for the full duration of there services, and your NOT at least throwing them an edge roll or 2 on the Spirits behalf, your being a bad GM in terms of trying to reward a player for there efforts to make your game better.
As for Technomancers and programming options, they can have a Max Skill of 5 for free, keep in mind they still need to have a copy of the Activeware to copy this from so unless they steal an Activesoft from someone, they still gotta dish out 40K+ for each skill to permanently fix.
Now let's say you get to Magic 8, you Summoning a Force 16 Spirit (Make sure to use your Edge on Drain, your gonna need it), that spirit can then roll 32 Dice for a Threshold of 16 successes on Analyze Device, -6 successes for Object Complexity and you now have a Skill of 10.
Basically every time your Magic Rating goes up, you get 2 extra dice to EVERY SKILL that requires equipment or a device of some sort.
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Yeah, it's really cool, but still, compare it to what you'll get with a guardian or task spirit with the same force.
For technomancer, I don't know enough about them to argue, I just know a friend of mine made one who is a real team skillwire, granting us the skills we need with incredible ease, putting machine sprites in our devices to increase our pools, and so.
And, well, a force 16 spirit is somethin I don't see everyday… in the game I play, it's powerfull enough to erase half a town before being stopped. I don't know a physical weapon powerfull enough to hurt it, and most magicians will die if they try to banish it.
God ! According to the core rulebook, it's even smarter than great dragons ! it's a genius ! Don't make it use analyze device, make it rule a corporation, Lofwyr will bite the dust !
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Ya, and in that case a GM has full right to have the spirit decide it doesn't want to go home once it's done with it's services......if you're going to summon such powerful game-breaking entities into the campaign world, then you better be ready to pay the consequences.
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Oich...Force 16 spirit? The thing is, it's not getting it to cast the spell for you that would be the problem.
It would be BINDING it to get it to do so. Resist hits x2 of 32 dice of overcast binding drain, *after* resisting hits x2 of 16 dice overcast summoning drain? How, exactly, is that likely? How much Edge do you have to burn, here? For one Analyze Device spell?
If the shaman is slinging all this around, why does s/he need Analyze Device?
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It's not just shaman that can do this, it is any caster specialized in summoning.
And so long as the summoning drain doesn't actually kill him, the summoner is just fine. Even using automatic dice for creating or resisting drain yields, for the summoner player in my group, yields only 8 drain, of which 4 is resisted by the summoner (using edge but ignoring bonus 6's). Not that difficult. Binding is expensive, but not prohibitively.
One summons the spirit to do this so that the caster has someone else taking the sustaining penalty, and it doesn't cost any karma, unlike a sustaining focus. Not to mention the other abilities of the spirit.
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It's not just shaman that can do this, it is any caster specialized in summoning.
And so long as the summoning drain doesn't actually kill him, the summoner is just fine. Even using automatic dice for creating or resisting drain yields, for the summoner player in my group, yields only 8 drain, of which 4 is resisted by the summoner (using edge but ignoring bonus 6's). Not that difficult. Binding is expensive, but not prohibitively.
One summons the spirit to do this so that the caster has someone else taking the sustaining penalty, and it doesn't cost any karma, unlike a sustaining focus. Not to mention the other abilities of the spirit.
For a Force 16? The binding would yield 16 drain, using the auto hits, since the spirit resists with its Force x 2, and drain is twice those successes. Your guys have a lotta juice, my friend.
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Ah, sorry, I didn't clarify. The summoner in my group typically spits out force 8's or 9's. He has cranked out 12 before, but only in emergencies. And he usually is lucky enough, especially with edge use, to suffer minimal or no drain. I think the worst drain he suffered was with the force 12, and then it was only 2 or 3 drain.
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Ah, sorry, I didn't clarify. The summoner in my group typically spits out force 8's or 9's. He has cranked out 12 before, but only in emergencies. And he usually is lucky enough, especially with edge use, to suffer minimal or no drain. I think the worst drain he suffered was with the force 12, and then it was only 2 or 3 drain.
Phew! No problem, T_G_N. Had some scare-pants on for a sec.
...heeeeey. Maybe THAT's where all my good die-rolls are going! Somebody's aceing all their drain with 'em!
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@Nut: I'm assuming this is a rather advanced character? No character near starting could pull off that kind of stuff... or am I missing something?
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Force 8 spirits aren't that hard to come by. 8 dice usually translates to 2 or 3 successes and 4 or 6 points of drain are something you can reduce to "not so bad" levels even with a starting character. Might take 1 or 2 drain, but you get a pretty kickass powerful spirit in return. Sure it depends on the situation, but if the situation calls for a force 8 spirit, chances are pretty good you can get one without knocking yourself out/into a coma.
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Yea, I guess that's true. Never really thought about it in numeric terms, but I suppose you could get a starting character to roll 12ish dice on a summoning test without too much labor. I think perhaps my brain was getting mixed up with binding, which is the opposed roll vs the spirits force x2, in which case rolling your 12ish vs 16 could become problematic. But after a quick refresher I guess F8 spirits are actually fairly easy to muster, even for a green runner.
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Easyish to call, if a little painful. Having an already-possibly-squishy magician hurt themselves further is rough. Choose the timing wisely you must, sez ShadowYoda.
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ok, so real quick. Spirits aside.. getting back on main topic here.
Basic question: do you get extra dice on your first aid / medicine rolls to heal people if you cast analyze device on a medkit before you use it?
Extended version:
Lets assume 5 Logic, 5 Biotech, 6 Magic and 6 Spellcasting, Power Focus 4, Spellcasting Focus 5 (Detection) just for sake of having some real world numbers.
If i cast Analyze Device Force 8 on a rating 6 Medkit (object resistance threshold 4[?]), and score 8 successes (lets just say i used edge or something if you think that's unreasonable), and then use the medkit to heal my buddy...
Assuming no other modifers for conditions, implants, injuries, etc.
Do I roll 20 dice for the first aid check? (5 logic + 5 biotech + 6 Medkit + 4 Analyze device bonus)
If so..... Shazam!
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My opinion is that yes you get those bonus dice but also -2 dice for spell sustaining unless you drop it onto a spirit or something. Since you'd need on average 24 dice in your pool and a summoned spirit to pull this off I don't really see the issue.
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Oh no, no issue, was just making sure i had my math right. :)
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Sorry mixing people up I guess, some people in the thread were acting like it was broken.