Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: 忍 on <02-28-17/1333:39>
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Is it possible for an adept to get a foci or fetish to use with adept spell?
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Yes, and technically it's a loophole for an adept to exchange spells.
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Jack, I haven't heard of this. What's the loophole?
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Adept spell says you can learn only one spell, but if you get them as foci you can exchange them
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It's not really exchanging spells, its buying additional foci, when are then bound with Karma.
Unless I'm missing something there isn't a way to exchange.
Side note - what book is Adept spell in?
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It's in Hard Targets p.190
You don't have to have all foci active at the same time, so you can choose which spell you can use. Even if your GM rules that this is not possible, you can have a focus unbound, followed by binding an other focus.
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It doesn't seem overly broken to me. Using Qi Foci to "house" Adept Spell would require spending at least 8 karma and 12,000¥ for each spell.
Add to that, the action economy cost (taking the time to deactivate one focus, before reactivating the other one), the resource cost (there is a hard limit on both the number of Foci you can Bind [Magic Rating] as well as the total Force of all Foci bound), risk of addiction (if you have too many other Foci active), as well as the risk of Background interference (if the Focus' Force drops below 4, it can no longer run the power).
Those all seem like reasonable balances to this "workaround."
As for the OP, I believe they were actually asking if an Adept could bind and use Spell Foci to use in conjunction with the Adept Spell power. The answer to this is "Yes," there isn't anything in the rules that actually prevents an Adept from bonding a Spell Focus even without the Adept Spell power. It just isn't going to do anything for them without it.
Technically, a non-adept could likewise bond a Qi Focus (there isn't anything in the RAW that says they can't), but I know that I would rule that they wouldn't get the adept powers stored within unless they have the ability to have adept powers in the first place. Sorry, no Magicians picking up Qi Foci to become pseudo-Mystic Adepts in my games.
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Well, by default an Adept cannot learn the Spellcasting skill, which is required to use the Adept Spell. Taking Adept Spell allows you to learn Spellcasting.
Now, a GM could very well rule, that taking it with a Qi Focus does not allow you to learn the skill, and therefor it wouldn't work.
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True, a GM could rule that way. But there is a pretty decent argument that, since the Qi Focus grants the power as long as it is active, the Adept could learn the Spellcasting skill while the focus is active.
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Specific trumps general.
No one can stop the GM being a dick, but having the power, no matter the source, allows the adept to learn spellcasting
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Sorry to Necro but this seems unbalanced.
Qi focus Rating 4 - Adept Spell: Increased Reflex's, Y 12,000 Nuyen 8 Karma to bond.
Spell Sustaining focus, health spells Rating 1 Y 4,000 Nuyen 2 Karma to bond.
Cast Increased reflexes at Force 1, use 8 reagents to set the limit at 8, which will give you +8 initiative +4d6 initiative dice.
So for Y 16,000 Nuyen upfront cost and 10 Karma, you now have something better than spending 3.5 Power points.
You go through a barrier or spell goes away then just spend Y 160 to recast it.
Seems broken to me.
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think you already got your answer on this one on reddit.
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Sorry to Necro but this seems unbalanced.
Qi focus Rating 4 - Adept Spell: Increased Reflex's, Y 12,000 Nuyen 8 Karma to bond.
Spell Sustaining focus, health spells Rating 1 Y 4,000 Nuyen 2 Karma to bond.
Cast Increased reflexes at Force 1, use 8 reagents to set the limit at 8, which will give you +8 initiative +4d6 initiative dice.
So for Y 16,000 Nuyen upfront cost and 10 Karma, you now have something better than spending 3.5 Power points.
You go through a barrier or spell goes away then just spend Y 160 to recast it.
Seems broken to me.
Well, the R4 Qi Focus works in a rating 3 Background Count. The R1 Spell Sustaining focus turns off in any Background Count whatsoever, since BGC's cant be lower than rating 1....
And going by the guidelines in SG... simply killing a person can cause a background count. Kind of suck to turn off your own Increase Reflexes because you shot someone...
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A Rating 4 Qi Focus may still work in a BGC 3, but its Force is reduced, which means it no longer grants its power.
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Sorry to Necro but this seems unbalanced.
Qi focus Rating 4 - Adept Spell: Increased Reflex's, Y 12,000 Nuyen 8 Karma to bond.
Spell Sustaining focus, health spells Rating 1 Y 4,000 Nuyen 2 Karma to bond.
Cast Increased reflexes at Force 1, use 8 reagents to set the limit at 8, which will give you +8 initiative +4d6 initiative dice.
So for Y 16,000 Nuyen upfront cost and 10 Karma, you now have something better than spending 3.5 Power points.
You go through a barrier or spell goes away then just spend Y 160 to recast it.
Seems broken to me.
Well, the R4 Qi Focus works in a rating 3 Background Count. The R1 Spell Sustaining focus turns off in any Background Count whatsoever, since BGC's cant be lower than rating 1....
And going by the guidelines in SG... simply killing a person can cause a background count. Kind of suck to turn off your own Increase Reflexes because you shot someone...
Has any GM interpreted background count that way? Unrelated as this isn't a 6r thread but, Does 6e even have it yet, I forget. If not its something that needs such a huge rewrite from top to bottom I hope they don't even look at previous editions for it other than the basic thematic element some places its harder to do magic.
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Interpreted what? That foci are reduced in force/turned off by background counts? Or that violence and death can cause them?
Heck, Background Counts are the one thing that gives you a downside for not playing a mundane. I should hope every GM employs them.
And as for 6th ed... no we don't have rules for them yet.
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Pre-existing active foci, sustained spells, quickened/anchored
spells and rituals are reduced by the background count. If they are
reduced to 0 or less, spells fizzle, wards and rituals collapse, foci
deactivate. A foci cannot activate while under the influence of the
background count.
So an active Focus is reduced in Force and may deactivate if overwhelmed, while an inactive Focus cannot be activated. As for Qi Foci, p319 SR5: "The Force of the focus must be four times the Power Point cost of the power it holds," so afaik most GMs go with that if the Force is reduced, so is the Power it holds.
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Interpreted what? That foci are reduced in force/turned off by background counts? Or that violence and death can cause them?
Heck, Background Counts are the one thing that gives you a downside for not playing a mundane. I should hope every GM employs them.
And as for 6th ed... no we don't have rules for them yet.
sorry, I was referring to a GM having you get a instant background count from killing someone. I don't think I have ever played in a game where a GM pulled that. Background counts are a train wreck of bad rules trying to fix mages being overpowered instead of dealing with the root causes. They could have been a interesting hook for stories instead they are just a cudgel.
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sorry, I was referring to a GM having you get a instant background count from killing someone. I don't think I have ever played in a game where a GM pulled that. Background counts are a train wreck of bad rules trying to fix mages being overpowered instead of dealing with the root causes. They could have been a interesting hook for stories instead they are just a cudgel.
That is basically my issue with it as well. In scenario one, we could just have a balanced rule set. In scenario two, we basically let a person take clearly overpowered options, but balance it with occasional die pool penalties ranging from slight inconvenience to totally crippled or total removal of the option, with a frequency of "at whim".
Is there anyone who genuinely prefers scenario two?
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sorry, I was referring to a GM having you get a instant background count from killing someone. I don't think I have ever played in a game where a GM pulled that. Background counts are a train wreck of bad rules trying to fix mages being overpowered instead of dealing with the root causes. They could have been a interesting hook for stories instead they are just a cudgel.
That is basically my issue with it as well. In scenario one, we could just have a balanced rule set. In scenario two, we basically let a person take clearly overpowered options, but balance it with occasional die pool penalties ranging from slight inconvenience to totally crippled or total removal of the option, with a frequency of "at whim".
Is there anyone who genuinely prefers scenario two?
Well, the devil's in the details. Scenario two is indeed preferable as the less-bad option if the "fix" for Scenario one is no fix at all. Or makes the situation worse. And a topic like "how do you fix MagicRun" goes back to the beginning. If it WAS an easy fix, wouldn't it have been fixed by now?
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There is a relatively easy fix to magic run, sadly the devs have never explored it or implemented it and instead have amplified it.
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Well, the devil's in the details. Scenario two is indeed preferable as the less-bad option if the "fix" for Scenario one is no fix at all. Or makes the situation worse. And a topic like "how do you fix MagicRun" goes back to the beginning. If it WAS an easy fix, wouldn't it have been fixed by now?
Sure, but the baffling part is why haven't they just balanced it? I think it easy an easy fix for any optimizer. Hell I could legitimately balance it appropriately, right now in 10 mins, with a single post. Speaking for SR5 on the core system from the CRB:
Magic Attribute
- Maximum rating at character creation is 4.
- Initiation increases the cap as normal, to an absolute maximum of 12.
- Maximum Initiation Grade is 8.
Resisting Magic
- Every full point of essence lost to ware adds one additional die to spell resistance pools. Does not stack with the magic resistance quality or the racial spell resistance of gnomes, fomorians, ect.
Mystic Adepts
- Must choose one of spellcasting, summoning, or enchanting, like an aspected mage. They may not use the other two skill groups or options.
Spells
- The maximum number of spells a spellcaster may know equals their magic attribute x2.
- Cost 10 karma each, rather than 5.
Spirits
- Do not gain hardened armor, instead gaining armor = to force.
- Completely remove aid sorcery, spell sustaining, and spell binding from bound spirit options.
- Cannot be oversummoned without metamagic.
- Spirits higher than Force 8 always get to simply choose to heed a summoner's call or ignore it, no rolls required.
- You can never have more than one spirit actively participating in combat. You can have more than one spirit engaged in non-combat tasks, however.
Metamagic
- New metamagic: each time it is taken summoner can summon spirits with a force one higher than their magic attribute. If you are already able to summon a spirit of Force 8, each instance of this metamagic instead allows you can add one additional power to said spirits.
- Quickening: the maximum number of spells that can be quickened on a single creature or object is equal to the highest magic attribute of any awakened characters who have quickened a spell on said creature or object.
Reagents
- Can only be used to ignore the force/maximum hits limit of spells that effect the caster his/herself, rather than ignore the limit on any spell.
Foci
- Have a maximum rating of 4.
- Only rating 1 and 2 foci can be crafted. Rating 3 and 4 are reserved for artifacts and/or other objects of historical importance.
- Cost quadruple the karma and nuyen listed.
- Ki foci totally reworked: 1 PP worth of powers per rating, costs equal to power foci.
That was easy, and it will work. Some people just might not like the specific changes, but that will always be the case.
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that covers 90% of it, nicely done Lormyr.
imho with that you don't even need to make every mage aspected.
just shows how inane magicrun is.
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That was easy, and it will work. Some people just might not like the specific changes, but that will always be the case.
Well, the second sentence is the rub, isn't it. There are people who won't agree that the first sentence is true.
For what it's worth, I'd say you hit on some of the same problems I'd address as well if I were made King of Shadowrun for a Day. But you didn't address others that I think are more important than some of the other things you did focus on.
Let's start a new thread for this topic to further discuss ideas about balancing MagicRun rather than continuing to hijack this one :)