Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: PMárk on <03-10-17/1653:40>
-
Ok, here's the deal: in SR, air pollution is pretty much prevalent in sprawls, acid rain, smog, all the goodies. But where did it come from? As per 5e, most of the land-vehicles are having either electro or hybrid motors with biofuel. Assuming that the heavy industry facilities and energy plants aren't right in the middle of the urbanized area, what creates that much smog in the cities, really?
-
Installing smoke machines along the expressways might not have been such a good idea, no matter how cool it looked ...
More seriously, this has been something that has always made less than a lot of sense in ShadowRun. Even back in first edition a lot of power was coming from nuclear plants (no air pollution), and there were various other factors that I always thought made the high air pollution seem doubtful. Basically the desire for cool science fiction future stuff was in a bit of a battle with the dystopia stuff, and they just kind of waved their hands and said "you get both!"
I guess the argument is that with ineffective government regulation, industry has ripped out all the pollution controls to reduce costs. Places are burning coal if they need heat in their processes, and maybe some power plants are running on coal too (and coal is a huge, huge, factor in smog and acid rain -- or at least lower grades of coal in plants without pollution controls are). Or heavy petroleum products (don't burn very cleanly) which are heavy with sulphur (don't have the same requirements around sulphur content that we have currently).
Plus, in the barrens people aren't on the grid in many cases, so are burning whatever they can get their hands on for heat and cooking. Ships and planes are burning whatever is cheapest, blasting out large amounts of pollution. Agriculture is using fertilizers and pesticides with little regard for their health effects, and those blow into cities. In Seattle you get sulphur dioxide coming from the local volcano (if you've had the change to visit the the volcano on the big island in Hawaii you'll realize how caustic even low levels of this can be).
Personally, I don't make a big deal of it in my home game.
-
Actually, we were thinking along the same lines. Burning coal and other fossil fuels for the electricity could be a big problem. I even thought that, since there were a lot of nuclear disasters and meltdowns, people would rely on fossils even more. A lot of volcanoes erupted, yes, that could be too. Your remarks about the barrens and aerial/nautical transport are also plausible.
I didn't intend to make a fuss about it, it's just I'm recently reading Street Grimoire and all that BC stuff reminded me to this smog thing. Okay, it's bad in the cities, but why, if everyone uses electricity for fueling vehicles and for heat and the corps having half the IQ of a sea urchin to not deploy fossil power plants right in the middle of the cities.
I'm perfectly okay with the high grades of overall pollution, but that much smog in the cities seemed strange, but I concede, it's plausible.
-
A role-playing game that has bad continuity? Happens all the time.
-
Don't forget, just because the electricity mught be coming from a clean source, doesn't mean what we do with it is clean.
Smelting,
Baking,
Various industrial processes,
All release air pollution (ESP smelting and other refining processes!). And not all cars are hybrid, electric. Nor are tractor units (long haul trucking).
Throw in zero environmental controls..... yea smog is the least of your worries..... (can we say 'roaming pockets of Sulfuric Dioxide"?)
-
A role-playing game that has bad continuity? Happens all the time.
I know, I know, it's so much handwavium in the air, people are choking on it and it disrupts magic. :D
Actually I don't think SR has that bad internal continuity, but I'm fairly new to the game.
Don't forget, just because the electricity mught be coming from a clean source, doesn't mean what we do with it is clean.
Smelting,
Baking,
Various industrial processes,
All release air pollution (ESP smelting and other refining processes!). And not all cars are hybrid, electric. Nor are tractor units (long haul trucking).
Throw in zero environmental controls..... yea smog is the least of your worries..... (can we say 'roaming pockets of Sulfuric Dioxide"?)
Those are good point too, thanks!
I'm mostly interested in the topic, because my degree is in environmental conservation, so my eyes caught it, when I read the 5e core book, then I started thinking about it and got curious about other people's explanations?
Bear in mind, it wasn't the overall degree of pollution, or he air pollution in general that stood out to me. Lack of restrains on industry is a perfectly good argument, it was the air pollution level particularly in cities that seemed strange at first glance.
-
Well, even after most vehicles become electric, the pollution caused by their gas powered forebears isn't just going to go away. At least not with any kind of quickness. Then you've got toxic mages messing with it, so...
-
Ever been to some 'Big' cities?
Last time I was in LA, the sky was a dark grey, no matter the time! (Morning, noon, and night.... GREY!!) course, this is because of car pollution mostly.
Lagos, the sky is always hazy... but because of burned fuel sources.... like animal shite....
And China... don't get me started on some cities in China!!! Worked there once. Could NOT pay me enough to work there again!! But that is all industrial pollution. Which in a way makes it worse thanks to the chemicals that get used....
-
Ever been to some 'Big' cities?
Last time I was in LA, the sky was a dark grey, no matter the time! (Morning, noon, and night.... GREY!!) course, this is because of car pollution mostly.
Lagos, the sky is always hazy... but because of burned fuel sources.... like animal shite....
And China... don't get me started on some cities in China!!! Worked there once. Could NOT pay me enough to work there again!! But that is all industrial pollution. Which in a way makes it worse thanks to the chemicals that get used....
Tucson is bad too. It's always hazy here, and I've been perma-sick since relocating here. Don't get me started on the water. You can taste the chemical goodness!
-
Wait..... you DRINK the water?!?!?! From the TAP?????
Its been so long since I drank anything that didn't come in a bottle with a label on it.
《Reads label: Molson Canadian Lager》
Hmm..... but not the point!
-
Ever been to some 'Big' cities?
Last time I was in LA, the sky was a dark grey, no matter the time! (Morning, noon, and night.... GREY!!) course, this is because of car pollution mostly.
Lagos, the sky is always hazy... but because of burned fuel sources.... like animal shite....
And China... don't get me started on some cities in China!!! Worked there once. Could NOT pay me enough to work there again!! But that is all industrial pollution. Which in a way makes it worse thanks to the chemicals that get used....
Thanks for the personal experiences, it did broaden the picture.
The biggest city I was to a considerable time (I'm practically living in a suburb town) is Budapest, although I was in other European ones, but very briefly. It's not THAT bad there, but it could be bad, especially on dry winter days and in the middle of summer. The most of it is car exhaustion, because we don't have any considerable industry on the outskirts.
I knew London had bad smog since the industrial era, but I thought it was because of the coal back then and now it's the cars. Most of the emphasis, regarding pollution nowadays in the big cities is about cars too. I thought that, in developing countries, for example, the abysmal circumstances are the results of the mind-boggling amount of old cars and unbelievable traffic jams every day. I know industrial pollution is bad, but I somehow thought that corporations have the sense of not deploying factories and plants in the immediate vicinity of residential areas. So ti could cause bad days in the cities, with the right atmospheric circumstances (wind direction, etc.), but it's not the normal cause of smog. I guess I was wrong. considering the even smaller, or non-existent leash on them in SR, it's indeed believable to have very bad smog levels in cities.
Wait..... you DRINK the water?!?!?! From the TAP?????
Its been so long since I drank anything that didn't come in a bottle with a label on it.
《Reads label: Molson Canadian Lager》
Hmm..... but not the point!
My condolences to both of you! :( I'm lucky enough that we have nearly mineral-water level of tap-water quality here.
-
More seriously, this has been something that has always made less than a lot of sense in ShadowRun. Even back in first edition a lot of power was coming from nuclear plants (no air pollution), and there were various other factors that I always thought made the high air pollution seem doubtful. Basically the desire for cool science fiction future stuff was in a bit of a battle with the dystopia stuff, and they just kind of waved their hands and said "you get both!"
If I'm remembering correctly, one of the reasons is because in the Shadowrun setting, they don't have nuclear power plants as a primary energy source. Magic messed up the way Nuclear energy can be harnessed. Basically, anything bigger than a small tactical nuke just doesn't work right. I think that's the reason that the nuclear plant in Redmond went critical and therefore we have Glow City on the edge of the barrens.
-
I think the catch there is whose city it is. That is . . .
I live in Sunnybrook Meadows average annual income 10 million. We have "natural" fields, running water, large estates and gating to keep out the rifraf with our own stores and clubs.
Next door planning wise you have the corp kids. Huge arcologies and skyscraper estates.
Beyond them you have the SINners skyscrapers, warehouses, some abandoned buildings and so on.
Then you have the heavy industrial sector with factories of various sorts such as sewage treatment plants, steel mills and so on.
Beyond them you have the slums and ruins that haven't been bought up by the industrial sector yet.
Not entirely accurate but I think you get the idea. The corps aren't going to put factories and the like up near the rich and powerful, they might avoid it near their own employees but other corps employees? or sealed arcologies? probably fair game. For all the SINner's they're not really going to care if they dislike the high polution plant nearby and if you live in the slums or other SINless areas your lucky they aren't just killing you rather than running you off for their new land development.
-
More seriously, this has been something that has always made less than a lot of sense in ShadowRun. Even back in first edition a lot of power was coming from nuclear plants (no air pollution), and there were various other factors that I always thought made the high air pollution seem doubtful. Basically the desire for cool science fiction future stuff was in a bit of a battle with the dystopia stuff, and they just kind of waved their hands and said "you get both!"
If I'm remembering correctly, one of the reasons is because in the Shadowrun setting, they don't have nuclear power plants as a primary energy source. Magic messed up the way Nuclear energy can be harnessed. Basically, anything bigger than a small tactical nuke just doesn't work right. I think that's the reason that the nuclear plant in Redmond went critical and therefore we have Glow City on the edge of the barrens.
Nope, many corps run their owm nuclear power plants. That was one of the reasons the UCAS stepped in during the Renraku Arcology incident.... the 4 reactors in the basement!
I can't remember how Glo City got started.... it was either sn eco-terrorist attack, or damage cause by the Great Ghost Dance turning mt. Reiner active again.
And there have been other eco-terrorist attacks too on nuclear facilities.... because eco-terrorists are generally stupid, miss-informed people who don't really know anything, thus doing more damage!
But you are right about nuclear weapons! Those have not worked right since the awakening, and there have been several times where missiles have failed to detonate, or just up and disappeared!!
-
But you are right about nuclear weapons! Those have not worked right since the awakening, and there have been several times where missiles have failed to detonate, or just up and disappeared!!
I guess I thought the nuclear weapons thing applied across the board. Good to know, I guess.
-
I thought they were now on fusion, fission plants or something like that.
-
.
..
...
I think you're right Senko....
-
I think it can be explained by combining a number of things:
-even though electricity comes from fusion plants, probably not all countries have them. And smog doesn't stop at borders.
-even if the electricity is clean, not all industrial processes are. Add to that a lack of controls due to balkanization and you can have quite a lot of pollution.
-the pacific ring of fire had a lot of vulcano eruptions (and still does). That too can give a lot of smog, or at least something that looks like it. And it can also give acid rain due to the high sulphates in the air from the eruption.
-don't underestimate the amount of pollution you get from burning wood, as probably a lot of SINless have to do. Especially treated wood (painted for instance) can give a lot of pollutants
-Maybe (and this is purely speculation) leakage through a gate to some metaplane.
all on their own they will probably not give the amount of smog mentioned, but taken together it is possible.
-
And let us not discount the effect of toxic mages, who are basically Captain Planet villains with magic instead of vast corporate power. And if there any free toxic spirits, they're all basically Hexxus. For those of you who have never watched Fern Gully before, here's a a video of Hexxus getting sexually aroused by a diesel-powered deforesting machine and gloating about all the environmental destruction he's going to achieve with it:
https://youtu.be/hr4knvNNgtU
Debate among yourselves, if you will, exactly what sort of toxic spirit Hexxus would be, and how much nuyen and karma one would earn from a run where the objective is to put a deforesting machine possessed by a toxic spirit out of commission before it destroys one particularly important patch of pristine wilderness.
-
Ha, that's hilarious! :D Thanks, I didn't encountered with it before.
All in all, this topic's been quite informative, thanks all, for contributing!