Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: JmOz01 on <05-15-17/2255:07>

Title: Logic 1
Post by: JmOz01 on <05-15-17/2255:07>

Dumb or just not technical (and probably somewhat irrational)?

Title: Re: Logic 1
Post by: Novocrane on <05-15-17/2317:20>

Non-academic and probably more prone to gut feeling.

There are actual qualities for someone worse off / less able to improve than that.

Title: Re: Logic 1
Post by: JmOz01 on <05-15-17/2319:33>

So perfect for my Party Girl Rocker?

Title: Re: Logic 1
Post by: GloriousRuse on <05-16-17/0317:11>

I like to project stats on a standard deviation, with "3" being the center of the bell curve. For IQ, in so far as you use that to measure intelligence and consider it a decent proxy for the LOGIC stat, this means a 3 is a character with an IQ between roughly 85 and 115.

Logic 3 covers most normal humans. At the high end you would be expected to happily graduate college in the modern US, at the low end you would make it through high school...probably

A logic 2 then might be an IQ of 75-85. (The curve isn't perfect, blame the inventors.) You're getting in the range where you flunking out of high school in the modern US is getting be to a significant risk. A lot of time you "just don't get it" when concepts more basic than arithmetic and basic literacy. Not because you're lazy, but because you lack the requisite processing power. Even those basic life skills you find slow and frustrating because everyone else seems to grasp things so much more easily than you.

A logic 1 character has a sub 75 IQ. This doesn't mean your character is considered intellectually handicapped, but you'd be a candidate for special education in the most states education system. You can be expected to perform unskilled labor just fine; you meet all the standards for simple factory work or manual agriculture for instance, and could even live an ok life, but you are definitely not very well equipped to handle modern life and things like numeracy in all but the most rote circumstances. 

To which you might reply "ahh! Logic 1 sounds almost unplayable! And there's no point in having an unplayable stat!" Well, it's playable, representing a truly intellectually disadvantaged person trying to make their way in a dystopian world., not just "cutesy dumb." Alternatively, you could cheat the curve and only use a 1/2 SD downgrade per point below 3, which would then basically make you an 85ish IQ. 

You would have to decide if Party Girl is a Party Girl because she is really quite dumb and has turned to the rock/drugs/sex lifestyle because it offers something she can be good at and people seem to appreciate her for or whatnot 0\- Logic 1 - or if she is perfectly normal functioning human who just chose a different path - logic 3.
 

Title: Re: Logic 1
Post by: Novocrane on <05-16-17/0725:55>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_intellectual_functioning

The problem with saying this is relevant, is that a single day of effort and 2 karma brings a Logic 1 character equal to an unskilled Logic 3 character's level. ie; "The default level of knowledge obtained through interaction with society and the Matrix."

Sub-standard, but not exactly special needs, and not dumb enough to be incapable of performing at standard levels with appropriate gear - and/or situational bonuses like regular exposure. Which one would have in the case of standard functioning human adult activities, and would bring everyone up to a point where they can buy a single hit if necessary.

This doesn't even get into how you don't roll dice for day-to-day activities.

Title: Re: Logic 1
Post by: Kiirnodel on <05-16-17/0730:15>

Using IQ gives a decent analogy. I did a quick search for IQ classifications, and I found the following chart:
I added suggested SR stat levels.

Very Superior	130 and above	7+
Superior	120-129	5-6
High Average	110-119	4
Average	90-109	3
Low Average	80-89	2
Borderline	70-79	1
Extremely Low	69 and below	additional negative qualities (sub 1)

Now, IQ also probably uses aspects of a person's Intuition as well, so it isn't a perfect example.

Title: Re: Logic 1
Post by: Beta on <05-16-17/1117:21>

the way I look at it, with logic 1 you can't default on any skill you don't know (default is 0 dice).  You are not unreachable, but you really can't figure out anything for yourself using logic.

Title: Re: Logic 1
Post by: Rosa on <05-16-17/1120:27>

In my opinion,  then yes if you have a logic attribute of 1 you're an idiot or an airhead and you would give the resident village idiot a run for their money.

But if you're not actually mentally handicapped then you have the same potential that everyone else have, meaning that if you apply yourself you can easily raise that logic to much higher.

At our table dump stats are frowned upon,  so unless you had a good reason for it  ( and airhead party girl that never really had the time/patience/inclination for school would qualify as a reason, but you would be expected to role play it  ) you can expect to be put in loads of situations where your "lack" would be felt, if you had a good reason and were intending to role play it, then the GM would go easier on you. Needless to say dumping stats for min-maxing puposes gets punished whereas doing it for role-playing does not.

So why do you want logic 1 for your party girl? 

Title: Re: Logic 1
Post by: Jack_Spade on <05-16-17/1338:56>

The value of an attribute is exactly how many dice it brings you. SR is a far cry from being simulationist.
Log 1 can be someone who just never applies himself to any rational thought or someone who simply can't. There is no "this means you have to play an idiot with these stats" rule.
Mental Limit is a far better indicator for intellectual baseline.

Title: Re: Logic 1
Post by: Rooks on <05-17-17/0137:59>

what about Dimmer Bulb then?

Title: Re: Logic 1
Post by: Sipowitz on <05-17-17/0259:38>

This is why I don't allow stats below 2.

Title: Re: Logic 1
Post by: Jack_Spade on <05-17-17/0318:05>

Quote from: Rooks on <05-17-17/0137:59>

what about Dimmer Bulb then?

What about it? It's a quality with a defined effect and completely independent of your Log stat.

Title: Re: Logic 1
Post by: GloriousRuse on <05-17-17/1759:37>

Its kind of a weird mix Spade; on one side we say Logic represents things like intellectual inclination and value, but on the other we have a host of "intellectual" qualities that do not change the stat at tall, they directly impact skills - College Educated, for example, would on a "how intellectual are you" measure provide a LOG boost. It does not, it only benefits some LOG based skills on the theory you have the same amount of brainpower, just more study in that field.

In contrast, most brain 'ware does things like directly increase your memory or processing power up there, and does provide LOG bonuses. The implication is that LOG represents to some degree raw mental capacity, and then skills represent utilizing it.

We also canonically note that a human "7" in a stat is considered one of the greatest that ever lived, and represents a miniscule fraction of the population. This tends to support a distributive curve of genetics to at least some extent.

All of this is complicated by the fact LOG in particular is a case where it would be hard to see the stat moving up and down, whereas you can very demonstrably bench press your way to a 5 in STR. It may just be an outlier that way; practically every other stat you could conceivably improve or fall back in based on effort to a far greater degree.   

Title: Re: Logic 1
Post by: Novocrane on <05-17-17/2122:26>

Quote

We also canonically note that a human "7" in a stat is considered one of the greatest that ever lived, and represents a miniscule fraction of the population.

There are a number of natural ways (and one metagenetic way) a human could deviate above the standard natural human maximum. Exceptional Attribute represents one way of deviation, but there is also natural expression of variant genes (on which genetic modifications have been based), and fortunately beneficial damaged metagenetic code. When you combine all of these, then you have a human who truly represents the pinnacle of natural human achievement, and the smallest fraction of the human population - exceptionally gifted people who could only be NPCs under standard chargen rules.

Title: Re: Logic 1
Post by: GloriousRuse on <05-18-17/0125:27>

Allow me to correct myself, a 7 canonically represents the pinnacle of human excellence prior to enhancement and the awakening. I think it was 4E that used leaders like Hitler and Churchill as examples of CHA 7, and Einstein for LOG 7

Title: Re: Logic 1
Post by: Novocrane on <05-18-17/0307:37>

Still wrong, because magic spikes and naturally occurring genetic variation.

Quote

I think it was 4E that used leaders like Hitler and Churchill as examples of CHA 7, and Einstein for LOG 7

I welcome the opportunity to be directed to such.

Title: Re: Logic 1
Post by: Jack_Spade on <05-18-17/0342:56>

@GloriousRuse
That's exactly the reason why you can't pin Logic as being your IQ. Logic is your baseline ability to solve problems with logical thinking in daily life. This is complimented by your intuition and your charisma for emotional reactions (or lack thereof) as well as willpower representing your ability to concentrate.

There is no need to flame against R1 stats - there mechanical impact is strong enough. (Being fooled constantly by mana illusions or fear effects thanks to low Logic is just one of the many drawbacks of skimping on this stat)

Title: Re: Logic 1
Post by: GloriousRuse on <05-18-17/1636:07>

To novo: in 4E skills and stats were both on the base 6, 7 is exceptional model with 3 being average. Here is what they had to say (4E Core, pg119)

Rating 7 Legendary

The “best of the best.” Someone whose expertise outranks all others in all of
known history. Can only be achieved with the Aptitude Quality (p. 90).

Athletics Example: Wayne Gretzky, Michael Jordan, Joe Montana, Pele, Babe Ruth.
Firearms Example: “Wild Bill” Hickock, James Bond, Thunder Tyee.
Technical Example: Thomas Edison, Nicholai Tesla, FastJack.
Social Example: Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan, Damien Knight.
Vehicle Example: The Red Baron, Evil Knievel.
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic): Stephen Hawking, Albert Einstein.
Knowledge Skill Example (Street): Wolfgang Kies, Dr. Raven, Captain Chaos.

Title: Re: Logic 1
Post by: Senko on <06-14-17/0622:58>

Honestly logic/int/what have you and wisdom/intuition are always going to be a problem in a stat based, levelling system. Body you can do exercises to make you tougher and more durable (up to a point hitting yourself with giant boulders is going to do more harm than good certain anime not withstanding), strength again you can exercise to increase it, dexterity you can do exercises to improve your hand/eye coordination, charisma you can learn techniques to impress or influence people. Wisdom is borderline same with intuition they're a lot harder to see how you can train to improve them when knowledge is represented by other skills and logic is just awful if your treating it as an IQ system.

I bypass it by treating it as logical thinking rahter than raw processing power and yes I know it doesn't really work with a lot of qualities but treating it as pure IQ has its own problems. If I treat it as logical thinking then at least you can learn to irmprove it there are entire philosophy courses on how to do logical reasoning. You're going from thunder makes the milk curdle to milk curdles without thunder and doesn't always curdle when it does therefeore there is something else at play to when i leave the milk out in the heat and the sun it always curcles therefore heat or sunlight causes milk to curdle thus I shall heat it over a prolonged period of time to see if heat is the cause and leave this on out on the winter slope where its cold and has direct sunlight to see if the light caues it to curdle. NOTE: I don't actually know what causes milk to curdle but I assume its time.

Title: Re: Logic 1
Post by: kyoto kid on <06-16-17/0130:57>

...for my adept KK, her low logic score (2) is part of her background as she suffered brain damage (a long and not so pleasant story which I will forgo here).  As she is a Missions character, I could not take Impaired Attribute for Karma, but she in effect has has it (limiting her racial maximum to 4).  On the other hand, her Intuition and Willpower are fairly good (5 and 4 respectively).  So she might not be the brightest bulb in the building when it comes to problem solving, but she is instinctively aware of her surroundings and can put "two and two" together well enough. to get by.

Title: Re: Logic 1
Post by: Glyph on <06-24-17/1640:08>

Absent any additional negative qualities, I see an Attribute of 1 as underdeveloped rather than handicapped.  Someone with a Logic of 1 could just be intellectually lazy, or someone who vegges out in front of the trid, or someone who likes to be spoon-fed opinions rather than doing any critical thinking.  But a low-Logic character can go from a 1 to a 2 with 10 Karma and two weeks of training, and then go from a 2 to a 3 with 15 Karma and three weeks of training.  Granted, that will take some runs and some downtime, but it is still comparatively easy for a character to go from a dim bulb to an average, unimpaired Logic.

Still, even if the GM isn't bothered by a stat of 1 (and a lot of them will be, going by the usual reactions to this topic both here and on the Dumpshock forums), a Logic of 1, as has been pointed out, is a significant weakness.  I prefer 2's to represent weak areas in my own characters, especially with them being so cheap to get from 1 to 2.