Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: welldressedgent on <04-22-18/2358:19>
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The Bull's Eye Burst called shot (RnG p116) triples the AP value of a weapon firing APDS ammo. Is this formula (Weapon AP + APDS AP) x 3 or (Weapon AP) x 3 + APDS AP? If the latter, is there any point to using this called shot with machine pistols / SMGs?
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As a general mathematical rule of operations, you multiply first and then add. BTW that's the trick to those puzzles you see on social media where icons stand in for un-specified numbers... e.g. 2+2x3 is 8, not 12.
Looking at the page myself, it's pretty clear. It says "The Attack results in an AP increase equal to the base AP multiplied by the number of bullets in the burst, with a maximum modifier of x3".
Between the rules of math and the explicit specification that you're multiplying the Base AP, there's really no argument to be had that it could possibly include APDS before multiplication. And yes, it does look like guns with a base AP of 0 get no benefit from that particular called shot as anything multiplied by zero is zero.
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Good to know, thanks for the math lesson. Algebra seems so long ago.
Sure sucks for the smg guys, though.
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Yeah, SMGs are totally outclassed by Assault Rifles. If the GM doesn't enforce concealability rules, the SMG guy is gonna have a bad time when everyone else totes rifles.
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FYI, this one was errata'd. Here's the errata text:
The last sentence under the Effects sub-header should be changed from “The attack results in an AP increase equal to the base AP multiplied by the number of bullets in the burst with a maximum modifier of x3” to “The attack results in an AP increase equal to the base weapon AP multiplied by the number of bullets in the burst with a
maximum modifier of x3.”
If your weapon's AP (before ammo) was -1 it is now -2 (double tap) or -3 (burst). If it was -2 then it is now -4 or -6.
Having played with both versions of the rule - pre- and post-errata - the new one is much better. The old version was stupidly powerful, to the point where you would rarely use anything else.
Some would argue that the new version is only worthwhile for assault rifles using burst, since you want the benefit (extra -4 AP) to offset the cost (-4 dice to hit). That's true, but even when using a non -2 AP weapon the called shot still has some value for high-armor targets, including spirits where you're trying to overcome Immunity to Normal Weapons.
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Actually, the best use for this trick are Semi Auto sniper rifles. A SA burst with an Ares Desert Strike is exactly what mundanes need to stop mage types and their spirits.
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That's a good use too, especially since high-Force spirits can be dodgy little fraggers that can be hard to drill with a -4 modifier. So much the better if they don't get to dodge at all.
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Or for when you need to take down that assault troll, use the Barrett......
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I must admit I never understood the difference between before and after the errata. It seems the same to me.
Would anyone be kind enough to provide a calculation for the two, say using an Ares Alpha?
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Before the errata, some people thought you add the extra AP from APDS modification then multiply. The errata made the writing more explicit to clarify that you don't.
Personally, in my games, I've altered when this extra called shot can be used. I did it to control how people use it, for both in-game sense as well as power control. I ruled that the Bull's Eye Double-Tap/Burst can only be used in conjunction with the Double-Tap, Aimed Burst, or Brain Blaster attacks.
The idea there is that those attack types are the ones that aim at lining up bullets to hit targets more (rather than the default bursts that just send more bullets down-range to make it harder to dodge). So a) it just makes more sense, and b) it keeps some of the cheese down by preventing those high-powered Sniper Rifles using Semi-Auto bursts to get -22 AP...
Really, I always found it odd that this uses weapon AP at all. If the idea is that the bullets are carving the way for each-other, wouldn't it make more sense that the AP from the bullet would be multiplied?
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Yeah the 20 ap thing is pushing it to far imo.
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Uh, I see. Thank you for clarifying
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I've got some kind of deja vu with that discussion.
Bull's Eye DT/B is far from overpowered if you take a look at the numbers
Three dice equal roughly 1 point of damage or damage negation
Taking the Vitals Shot you gain 2 points of damage, equaling roughly 6 additional dice
For a standard assault rifle with AP-2 using Bull's eye burst is therefore only of interest if you are confronted with special armor - be it vehicle or hardened. Otherwise increased damage is usually more beneficial (and less expensive bullet wise)
Every point of additional AP can be converted roughly into one point more effective damage. Which caps out at AP -5 with the Ranger Arms SM-5.
Hand loaded Ex-Ex bullets with a Vitals Shot will have the same effect and are both weapon independent and cheaper.
The only weapon that you can make more effective with this trick is the Barret Model 122 with -6 AP.
Therefore, the only reason to use Bull's Eye is against targets with hardened armor who can take tremendous punishment without breaking.
Once you are in that territory, mundanes need every last bit of advantage they can get. Especially against high force spirits this is often the only option besides using large amounts of explosives to take care of the spirit and the adjoining neighborhood.
Abuse is easily prevented if the opponents mirror the tricks the players use.
Or in short:
Mundanes having nice things is not a bad thing.
After all, nobody seems to have a problem with mages overcasting indirect combat spells for ridiculous AP and damage increases that completely ignore spirit armor...
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FYI, this one was errata'd. Here's the errata text:
The last sentence under the Effects sub-header should be changed from “The attack results in an AP increase equal to the base AP multiplied by the number of bullets in the burst with a maximum modifier of x3” to “The attack results in an AP increase equal to the base weapon AP multiplied by the number of bullets in the burst with a
maximum modifier of x3.”
If your weapon's AP (before ammo) was -1 it is now -2 (double tap) or -3 (burst). If it was -2 then it is now -4 or -6.
Having played with both versions of the rule - pre- and post-errata - the new one is much better. The old version was stupidly powerful, to the point where you would rarely use anything else.
Some would argue that the new version is only worthwhile for assault rifles using burst, since you want the benefit (extra -4 AP) to offset the cost (-4 dice to hit). That's true, but even when using a non -2 AP weapon the called shot still has some value for high-armor targets, including spirits where you're trying to overcome Immunity to Normal Weapons.
Technically, as worded, wouldn't a - 2 AP weapon firing a 3 round burst be -8 (-2 increased by -2 x 3)? I don't think that was intended, but as phrased.
For 0 AP weapons, you could house rule a minimum -1 AP for each round after the first.
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Nope, -6. It's increased for every bullet after the first.
Really, unless you're using the perfect weapon and going for the perfect target, you're usually better off using your called shot for damage, not for AP.
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Nope, -6. It's increased for every bullet after the first.
Really, unless you're using the perfect weapon and going for the perfect target, you're usually better off using your called shot for damage, not for AP.
The text Tecumseh provided said for each bullet in the burst, without excluding the first. That would mean that it would multiply the base AP by 3 (2 rounds) or 4 (3 rounds).
Theoretically, 1 damage = 3 AP. I don't have my books handy, but I think a standard called shot is +2 DV. With the extra requirements of this action, it should come out slightly ahead. If you say that the AP is 3 times the base (a 200% increase), it's never worth it with less than a - 2 AP weapon. Double tap is never worth it unless you have a -3 AP weapon. If it is increased by the multiplied value (a 300% increase for burst and 200% increase for double tap), then burst is slightly ahead with a -2 AP weapon and double tap breaks even with a -2 weapon.
Both interpretations get scary with higher AP burst weapons.
IMO, this should be a flat -5 AP - 1 per round in the burst, up to a - 8 with 6 rounds.
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IMO, this should be a flat -5 AP - 1 per round in the burst, up to a - 8 with 6 rounds.
A max of -8? I can do better than that with a single shot, using a Barrett 122 (at -6) with APDS (-4), for a total of -10. Why would a special move that is designed to only work with the ammo I'm using, and that uses multiple bullets, give me less than what I can achieve with a single shot?
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IMO, this should be a flat -5 AP - 1 per round in the burst, up to a - 8 with 6 rounds.
A max of -8? I can do better than that with a single shot, using a Barrett 122 (at -6) with APDS (-4), for a total of -10. Why would a special move that is designed to only work with the ammo I'm using, and that uses multiple bullets, give me less than what I can achieve with a single shot?
It should be a max of -8 from the action that requires you to fire a burst with APDS ammo added to the modifiers for APDS and your base weapon.
So, use this (BF) with the SMG example and you get 0 -8 -5 = -13 instead of -5.
With a Savalette Guardian, -1 -8 -5 = -14 instead of -8/-9*.
With a Yamaha Raiden, -2 -8 -5 = -15 instead of -11/-12*.
With an Onotari JP-K50, -3 -8 -5 = -16 instead of -14/-17*.
*see my earlier post about the wording of the effect and how to calculate the final modifier.
Alternatively, you can remove the ammo and fire mode requirement and change the basic called shot to +2 DV, +1 DV and -3 AP, or -6 AP.
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I’ve scoured the interwebs for an answer to this, but no one seems to mention it at all, only y’all about the AP calculation. Why does this called shot not eliminate the defense modifier like e.g. Aimed Burst does? No one has mentioned that anywhere I can find, not in the official errata either.
This attack becomes extremely powerful if you fire a long burst with an assault rifle, which will net you like -10 AP and -5 to the defenders defense roll. Shouldn’t that defense modifier be removed? Same goes for some of the other specialty attack options, but only some of them mention the defense modifier.
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I'm guessing because it's a Called Shot, so it comes with the Called Shot penalty. Though I personally wouldn't let you use a wide burst penalty as a GM here, but the other specialty attacks tend to be replacements, rather than Called Shots, no?
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I'm guessing because it's a Called Shot, so it comes with the Called Shot penalty. Though I personally wouldn't let you use a wide burst penalty as a GM here, but the other specialty attacks tend to be replacements, rather than Called Shots, no?
Aimed Burst and Double Tap complex actions both specifically say that there’s NO defense penalty because of the focused fire. It would logically make sense for that to apply to Bullseye as well, but it doesn’t say so. Not in the errata either. So they’ve gone to some lengths to NOT make that the case for Bullseye. Combined with the -4 called shot penalty that could be why I guess. But using Bullseye with a 10 shot burst makes it exceptionally powerful.
Which leads me to another question. Called Shots are a Free Action to be combined with another primary action. I think RAI this is meant to be one of the basic action or a Firing Mode, not a specialized action. So you combine the called shot with single shot, burst or full auto. Not with, say, Aimed Burst, Brain Blaster or any other of the R&G actions.
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Wait, I thought Bulls Eye Double Tap was the same action?_?
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Wait, I thought Bulls Eye Double Tap was the same action?_?
Same as what? Bullseye Double Tap/Burst is an Ammo Whammy Called Shot.
Double Tap and Brain Blaster are new attack actions.
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So mundane character with Perfect Time (5 Karma), Special Modifications -2 AP (10 Karma) & Sharpshooter (4 Karma) using a Cavalier Arms Crockett EBR.
Character would get a Free Action every Action Phase to use Called Shot Bulls Eye Double Tap, So -5AP x3 = -15AP + -4AP(ADPS) = -19AP for only a -2 penalty to the attack roll?
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Meh, a Semi-Automatic burst with the Barret is at -22 AP without special modifications.
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Seriously, what is up with all the necro of old SR5 posts??
This is the 3rd or 4th thread in a week that was brought back from a 2 year old sleep.... :-)
...for only a -2 penalty to the attack roll?
And 19 karma(!)
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Well if the post count on many of those posters is any indication then they are clearly fairly new players. A lot of folks still prefer SR5 to SR6, so I would expect to continue to see questions and necros.
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No need to harass newbies for finding a topic on the subject they have questions on. Cut them some slack and help them, rather than trying to chase them off.
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Seriously, what is up with all the necro of old SR5 posts??
This is the 3rd or 4th thread in a week that was brought back from a 2 year old sleep.... :-)
...for only a -2 penalty to the attack roll?
And 19 karma(!)
Add in Brand Loyalty (Product) 3 more Karma for 22 Total for that extra +1 die
For a mundane character using the above 12R rifle, it's not bad starting out add smartgun system for +2 die and mods so you don't take recoil penalties.
Each Combat Action (Simple) Take Aim, (Free Action - Double Tap/Bullseye burst), (Simple Action) Burst Fire
Rinse and repeat, don't have to worry about recoil, reduce range penalties etc
Still fairly strong for a starting mundane character being able to pump out -19 AP each combat action.
The Barret for the -22 would require Restricted Gear (10 Karma) the EBR is 12R, with underbarrel mount for Smartgun system you can keep it 12R.
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And it is a lovely Spirit-killer build thanks to that. BEDT is the biggest nerf to high-Force spirits.
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I’m guilty of necroing a few threads. I figured the alternative was being told to use the search function if I started a new thread on the same topic. =)
But there’s still no clear cut answer to the defense penalty question?
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But there’s still no clear cut answer to the defense penalty question?
As the name suggests you typically only use the "Bulls-Eye Double-Tap/Burst" Called Shot together with an attack that fire 2 or 3 bullets (which only reduce the targets defense pool by 1 or 2).
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I personally believe this falls under the "specific rules trump general rules" clause.
The general rule of burst fire options is penalty to defense dice, but when using bull's eye or double tap those specific rules replace said general rules.
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I'd replace the benefit, yes, even if it's not there by RAW. No matter whether you fire 3, 6 or 10 bullets with the action, you get the benefit of 3 bullets for Bullseye and no defense penalty effect.
As GM, I want to only allow these with Narrow Bursts, still gaining the Narrow Burst damage benefit, but that means SA-Bursts cannot use this and I dislike nerfing it like that. I would allow combining them with a Narrow Burst for bonus damage, though, since that means you're turning your Simple Action into a Complex Action for the same amount of bullets.