Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Vaarsuvius on <05-04-18/1245:47>
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So for me I use and change the standard formula. The base modifier is 3,000, but not every Johnson uses it, it depends on what they are asking, how much money they actually have, who they (Mr Johnson) are, and how much they want the thing done. The lowest a normal run has gone for was 2,000 (orc underground) base modifier, and the highest is their current run which is 5,000, and is the strangest, longest, and arguably most important run they have ever done. Then I allow the negotiation check for +- 100 nuyen net hit, which I never give a free pass on, but the face crushes it every time anyways like +900 average.
I tend to put something difficult in each run somewhere along the line, usually -something- is going to oppose them with 20+ dice at one point, so +5 for difficulty, then the other little mods, well I usually try to include a few of them if logical, so usually they will get +3-4 miscellaneous adds (like outnumbered 3 to 1). When I remember I like to put +1 per game session beyond the first, to make it so that an extended run doesn't feel like cheating them out of advancement (I do +2 karma per game after first), I should note that this is each not split.
On top of this they will sometimes get operating funds (much less, determined by negotiation) or they will get expenses comped, depends how much, depends who, and depends on the roll. In the current run I actually scared one of my players with this. You see Mr. Johnson wants this thing, she wants it really, really bad. It's also a hard, and expensive run, so she gave them 350,000 nuyen in operational expenses, and wouldn't be negotiated into more, because that was all she could afford. Usually not this much though, as I said this is a really important run, in fact the last really, really important run of Act 1 in my campaign (of about 2 years).
I'm probably paying them more than the average as they tend to earn 50,000 - 80,000 per run, but I've seen no issues, they tend to just blow it on cars. (seriously)
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Yeah that sounds a lot more than usual, but so long as everyone's having fun with it there's no problem!
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Ask yourself: (A) What kind of lifestyle should they be able to afford? And (B) how many shadowruns do they complete per month? That tells you what they should make as a baseline.
Beginning runners should earn enough every month to afford a Low lifestyle (maybe Street if they're paying off a debt), plus a bit extra for expenses. After a few successful runs, as they start to build a reputation, they should be able to afford a Medium lifestyle (or keep it Low and accumulate nuyen for tech upgrades) with enough left over to splurge occasionally. Veteran runners with some years and a few hundred karma behind them should be able to maintain a High lifestyle and a few safehouses (or Medium/Low with occasional trips to the delta clinic).
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Ask yourself: (A) What kind of lifestyle should they be able to afford? And (B) how many shadowruns do they complete per month? That tells you what they should make as a baseline.
Beginning runners should earn enough every month to afford a Low lifestyle (maybe Street if they're paying off a debt), plus a bit extra for expenses. After a few successful runs, as they start to build a reputation, they should be able to afford a Medium lifestyle (or keep it Low and accumulate nuyen for tech upgrades) with enough left over to splurge occasionally. Veteran runners with some years and a few hundred karma behind them should be able to maintain a High lifestyle and a few safehouses (or Medium/Low with occasional trips to the delta clinic).
I admit I give more than the book might recommend, but this, this is ridiculously low, I mean If you just go RAW the formula should give 15,000 at a minimum if the runners don't negotiate at all. You make these elite mercenaries (and that is what they are) paid like scrubs, even noob runners are far superior to most professionals barring elite professionals, such as HTR.
You seem to be suggesting that you would pay your runners 3000 nuyen per run if they did one run a month, well tell me how did your street sam begin play with his 400,000 nuyen worth of cyber with earnings like that? I don't mean to offend, I'm simply flabbergasted.
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If you don't pay them enough then they will start looting corpses (and that is not really what Shadowrun is about).
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As a point of reference, the Shadowrun organized play baseline is a tad higher than the Core book suggestion. SRM campaign scenarios are tuned to around 10-12K per player per run. (and 5-8 Karma per run.. where a run is high on the spectrum of karma awarded, it'll be low on the pay spectrum and vice versa)
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I do think it's important point to look at. The other piece of it, comes down to, the more money roll. I know someone did math break down on SRM Johnson, and in general Johnson, rolls are considerably lower then Most PC faces. So the plus and minus component should feel meaningful.
The other point i feel like are very under estimated in this, is paying in product. Given that Johnson's can get ahold of product at cost, and give it to runners at street prices theoretically this should be the most optimal method of ether full or partial payment.
I guess one point is anonymity, I recall a Johnson roll from a mod, that wore two false corporate flags, one difficulty like 4 and one at difficulty 12 or something. Of course both were false but the Johnson just liked to see how good the runners really were.
I do think that SRM tends to run 10K is much more reasonable base line for your average run. Baring street play or "good" karma runs.
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... how did your street sam begin play with his 400,000 nuyen worth of cyber with earnings like that?
She certainly didn't pay for it out of her pocket. Probably ex-millitary or ex-corpsec ... the augmentations came with the job (typical military: low pay, good benefits). Where their beginning resources came from should be part of every runner's origin story.
My point was that runners' income should support whatever lifestyle is appropriate for the GM's campaign. If you want to run a game where runners live luxury lifestyles, do that. I'd probably enjoy playing in that campaign.
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I realize I should also ask another question: How long are your runs? Mine tend to run 3-5 sessions, often with a downtime session in between. If yours run like 1 session 1 run, I can understand that much more. The current run though is on it's fifth session and we are maybe halfway through?
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For mission length, well, it depends on the run. I've had a team take only 2 sessions (1 planning, 1 executing) to complete a run. The same team has also taken over 8 sessions (so far...) to complete a run of (what I think) is a similar complexity level. So, that means there's no real answer for how long should a mission take.
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I think I over pay mine and I'm torn. On one side I like there to be the gritty need to work to survive mentality but on the other I want them to feel they have a chance to upgrade cyberware, buy new stuff, etc. If you keep them on poverty tier earnings, say that 10k a month it would take a character years to earn enough after expenses to buy a decent cyberdeck or cyberware upgrade. Sure guns and spells are cheap enough but everything else is crazy expensive.
My group averages about 3-5 sessions for a run with the average run paying about 15,000 each. They have yet to get expenses paid by a job so that is already a loss in wages, they have lost a truck, numerous guns as well as having a few lifestyles and the attached Sins burned so the cost of living are high. They run about a job a week in game time, with some runs spilling over into their downtime as angry folks try to get payback or they work to resolves issues like unloading the refugees they rescued on someone who will take em and keep em halfway decent.
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Personally, I like the tone of my games to feel like a struggle. The players earn more than enough to get by, but not a lot more, and sometimes the costs of a job really cut into that. I don't want them to start falling into the gutter and being unable to fix their broken drones, but I want them to carefully consider how they spend that money. Then, every now and then, I give them a big payday so they can get their heads above water and upgrade some equipment.
But eventually, that's still not enough. Because a big pay day every now and then, one that means the samurai can by a new rifle and maintain their lifestyle for an extra month, isn't nearly enough for a decker to upgrade to a new deck, or even for that samurai to get new chrome, or for the AI rigger in my game to build their own android body.
And that's when the players start planning their own runs. Can't afford a new deck or a robot? Of course you can't. They're not consumer goods you're meant to go out and buy. But maybe you can find and steal one, and maybe steal something else while you're there to make it worthwhile for the whole team. But there's no guarantees in a run like that, and the time you spend on those personal runs is time you're not taking work with a guaranteed income from a Johnson. So you've got to make those choices. And you've got to make those choices around the choice to spend a few weeks training your Body stat and spending karma, or a month to initiate. That's time you're not making money.
And if those choices feel like a difficult balancing act, good. Nobody said running the shadows was easy. If you don't want the freedom of choice, go back to the corps.
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We try to play once a week for two hours, but the realistic average tends to be 2-3 times a month. So, we only finish a run very three or four months -- so I have a tendency to over pay.
There are sooo many potential money sinks in game -- monthly lifestyles, re-purchasing burnt SINs and IDs, paying of contacts and NPCs, cyberware, magic gear (materials for summoning, foci, reagents etc). Gear and Cyberware upgrades/replacements. Almost every archetype has something to sink money into.
I tried to follow RAW in the beginning, but due to or low completion rate of runs, they'd barely be able to pay rent. That's fine if that is the style of game your players want, but I prefer to see growth over time.
If money becomes an issue at a table, it really isn't too hard to come up with reasons to have them spend it---just put on your evil GM hat/gloves/pants... ;D
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I mostly follow the official rates with a few tweaks, and my players are excellent at negotiating. They did 1 run a month and I had a bit of downtime activity in as well. We tended to do 1 session per 1~2 months (some players went foreign at some point), 4~5 hours for 1 run.
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I pay "What the client is willing to pay".
Which may sound silly, but then you consider I run campaigns, where the players actions and choices have consequences that carry on in game for YEARS to come, and not solo, or linked missions...
But I do have a general guide line I try to follow: Behind the scenes I know what the players will face, and plan payment around that.
$2000 to $5000 to start.
+5% for every 5 points of street cred (Averaged out).
+500 for every planned combat. (This is what I plan for, NOT how the world reacts to the players! If I plan out there will 3 combats if the players take a reasonable course of action, then they go and decide to storm the building at high noon on a tuesday.... I ain't paying them for it!)
+1000 if wet work is required
+500 to +5000 if there will be known consequences for the run. (Hitting a major public figure, mass property destruction, anything that could get them public awareness modifiers.)
+20 to 50% if payment will be in "goods and services" (new gear, access to medical facilities, etc)
From there, They can try to butter up for more as usual... I generally plan for 2 paying runs a month, but the players make the call and have been known to do as many as 8 runs in a month. (Granted, they were all short courier jobs, but there was still risks), Its been interesting to watch their development as they become more ingrained into the setting. Last Month they accepted a job for 10kg of fresh veggies a month each for a year as payment just because they have become invested in the little commune veggie garden I threw in just to add color when describing the neighborhood I originally placed them in!
Be careful however when it comes to payments with goods... It can have some.... surprising repercussions.
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I actually have a slightly different problem with payment that comes up all the time.
Do the runners get paid per job or per runner?
Most of the per-made missions refer to the payment per runner, but does that really make sense? How does the Johnson know how many people you are going to use? Really it is none of his business how you accomplish the job. S/he really should just pay for the job. Which then gives the runners a chance to skimp on personnel for a bigger payday.
I run a game with only two runners that hire out NPCs when they need extra people for a run (often a decker, but sometimes extra muscle).
Usually only the team leader goes to the meet or whoever is getting the job in the first place (often the jobs are not from typical "Johnsons" but from some contact).
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I pay "What the client is willing to pay".
Which may sound silly, but then you consider I run campaigns, where the players actions and choices have consequences that carry on in game for YEARS to come, and not solo, or linked missions...
But I do have a general guide line I try to follow: Behind the scenes I know what the players will face, and plan payment around that.
$2000 to $5000 to start.
+5% for every 5 points of street cred (Averaged out).
+500 for every planned combat. (This is what I plan for, NOT how the world reacts to the players! If I plan out there will 3 combats if the players take a reasonable course of action, then they go and decide to storm the building at high noon on a tuesday.... I ain't paying them for it!)
+1000 if wet work is required
+500 to +5000 if there will be known consequences for the run. (Hitting a major public figure, mass property destruction, anything that could get them public awareness modifiers.)
+20 to 50% if payment will be in "goods and services" (new gear, access to medical facilities, etc)
From there, They can try to butter up for more as usual... I generally plan for 2 paying runs a month, but the players make the call and have been known to do as many as 8 runs in a month. (Granted, they were all short courier jobs, but there was still risks), Its been interesting to watch their development as they become more ingrained into the setting. Last Month they accepted a job for 10kg of fresh veggies a month each for a year as payment just because they have become invested in the little commune veggie garden I threw in just to add color when describing the neighborhood I originally placed them in!
Be careful however when it comes to payments with goods... It can have some.... surprising repercussions.
I like your system and having becoming something of advocate for that topic, can you elaborate on the last?
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Admittedly this is something I struggle with too, so I'm glad to see people discussing it. I tend to just use the rules in the core book, as-is. I haven't had any games that have gone on for a long time though so I can't say if it becomes a problem for certain archetypes. With Cutting Aces out, however, I think I will use the rules for "gear as cash payment" option a lot to allow me to give mundane archetypes more nuyen value without just handing the Awakened characters a buttload of extra nuyen. Although, that actually results in less payment if the gear is above Availability 10...
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I pay "What the client is willing to pay".
Which may sound silly, but then you consider I run campaigns, where the players actions and choices have consequences that carry on in game for YEARS to come, and not solo, or linked missions...
But I do have a general guide line I try to follow: Behind the scenes I know what the players will face, and plan payment around that.
$2000 to $5000 to start.
+5% for every 5 points of street cred (Averaged out).
+500 for every planned combat. (This is what I plan for, NOT how the world reacts to the players! If I plan out there will 3 combats if the players take a reasonable course of action, then they go and decide to storm the building at high noon on a tuesday.... I ain't paying them for it!)
+1000 if wet work is required
+500 to +5000 if there will be known consequences for the run. (Hitting a major public figure, mass property destruction, anything that could get them public awareness modifiers.)
+20 to 50% if payment will be in "goods and services" (new gear, access to medical facilities, etc)
From there, They can try to butter up for more as usual... I generally plan for 2 paying runs a month, but the players make the call and have been known to do as many as 8 runs in a month. (Granted, they were all short courier jobs, but there was still risks), Its been interesting to watch their development as they become more ingrained into the setting. Last Month they accepted a job for 10kg of fresh veggies a month each for a year as payment just because they have become invested in the little commune veggie garden I threw in just to add color when describing the neighborhood I originally placed them in!
Be careful however when it comes to payments with goods... It can have some.... surprising repercussions.
I like your system and having becoming something of advocate for that topic, can you elaborate on the last?
Going to be honest, my payment system for my games comes from my GM :D I've just copied his formula because it worked well in our games. But the problem with goods for payment comes from what they do with the goods. Giving your players a half dozen rail guns for payment might sound like a good idea - until they decide to keep and use them! Same thing for really powerful cyberware. As a general rule, I don't give out anything for gear in lieu payment that I don't want the players using on a regular basis.
The other "problem" that can come up has to do with general goods, and is more of an example from my time of play that really threw my GM for a loop. During the Yucatan War in 2e/3e, We got a contract to help out Amazonia with some covert ops missions that were expected to take a total of 2 months. For payment, we got 8 tonnes of real coffee beans. He expected us to turn around and sell the coffee beans (for a price of about $500k.) but then Kelli in the group said "Hey you know, I bet we could make way more money if we opened up a coffee shop!".... And thus our Runners went from working the shadows, to being business owners...... And started "the Seattle Coffee War" when Aztecology started getting uppity when we cut into their profits...
We really threw him for a curve ball with that decision, that really messed up his plans, and has continued to have repercussions for about a decade and a half of real time! (Keep in mind, that this crew of players and GM have been player together for about 30 years and have been playing almost continuous characters since 1e!) But, it has also opened up so many new avenues for stories, which he has milked for adventures over the last 15 years.
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I use the rules as a base for my one/month runs, and either offer a per player sum, or a lump sum which basically is the same if you divide.
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I actually have a slightly different problem with payment that comes up all the time.
Do the runners get paid per job or per runner?
Most of the per-made missions refer to the payment per runner, but does that really make sense? How does the Johnson know how many people you are going to use? Really it is none of his business how you accomplish the job. S/he really should just pay for the job. Which then gives the runners a chance to skimp on personnel for a bigger payday.
For the record, some of the early published adventures (like 1st and 2nd Edition) did pay the team in a lump-sum payment. Not only did this allow for some additional risk/reward considerations - i.e. individual runners getting paid more because the team was smaller, or vice versa - but it also allowed for the possibility of not splitting the payment evenly or for shared expenses to be deducted from the lump-sum before dividing it into shares. For example, a rigger with a van that the whole team uses could be paid more, especially if the van gets shot up or otherwise damaged in the course of the mission.
Many of the newer adventures are for Missions or convention play where you're going to have a group of strangers sitting around the table who have never played together before and will never play together again. Paying per-runner helps eliminate OOC tensions about who deserves what.
If you're playing with a home group with good interpersonal relationships then lump-sum payments can work well. It's largely dependent on the group in question.
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Okay so you guys tend to have runs the same length as mine, I have a couple other questions then.
For those of you who do, or feel you follow the formula for pay in the CRB, could you give me a breakdown of your math? I just want to see how you get to the numbers you do.
For those of you who ignore the formula in the CRB, why?
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Mostly because I am set in my ways :D
I have used the same pay rate system for years (since 3e I think) with some minor tweaking along the way. I find with my play style, it allows the players to live a life, save if they are smart, and grow. Because the amount goes up as their rep goes up, they see a progression reflected in their play. But it also keeps the players "hungry". While they will turn a profit if they are smart, they won't be going out and getting a major tech or magic upgrade every other game session. I find it makes them plan out their purchases is smaller steps, which helps keep the game running at a smoother pace.
But, again, this is because of my play style, my GM style, and how everything I do works together. So, what I do may be horrible for another table.
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Okay so you guys tend to have runs the same length as mine, I have a couple other questions then.
For those of you who do, or feel you follow the formula for pay in the CRB, could you give me a breakdown of your math? I just want to see how you get to the numbers you do.
For those of you who ignore the formula in the CRB, why?
Don't have a PDF on this laptop for some reason so I can't recall the exact formula. -.- I recall basic 3k, dicepool/4 per extra, and possible addons. Say mediocre Blood Mage at 24 dice, plus having to deal with a frickin' Blood Mage, that's 3k*(1+24/6+1)=24k basic, +1/6 max in Negotiations, which they'll easily score and they have a good rep, so they get offered 28k (3.5k*8 basically) pp, or for a team of 5 a group sum of 140k.
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At my table I want the players to be able to afford a sustainable medium lifestyle by they time they're 100 karma in.
I classify my missions into 3 levels of difficulty (1-3).
---Level 1 missions (Food Fight, Milk Run, etc) give around 3,000 base. I also allow players to 'loot bodies' without punishment, but organ legging is still frowned upon.
---Level 2 missions (Most convention runs) give around 10,000 base. These missions are lacking crunch most times, in my experience. Lost Islands found, for example, had a great chance to do something but fell flat in the end. Whoops...off topic...
---Level 3 missions (Really dangerous stuff that changes the face of the city/world/campaign) starts at $25,000 base and more than often results in the group getting an additional asset like a vehicle, arms, ware, etc.
Average karma payouts are 5, 8, 10 ... respectively, with bonuses for good RP.
Current group is 27 missions in and just hit 230 karma / $250,000 lifetime totals. It might seem like a lot, but it comes out to about $9300 per job.