Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: drjmoriarity@gmail.com on <08-05-18/1419:56>
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Imagine for a moment the fun you can have with mimics in shadowrun...
- Get into a car? "Oh no its a mimic!"
- Answer the phone? "Oh no its a mimic!"
- Open A Laptop? "Not Another mimic!"
I cant find any mimics in the bestiary but I sort of wish there was a way to do this, Fun with mimics is a DMs best friend in D&D and Bathfinder.
Also I would like to take a moment to ask questions about awakened objects.. I read there was an awakened Tornado.. What other objects can be awakened? What would an Awakened Gun be like?
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Mimics are not a thing in SR. Not at this time, at any rate. You might get creatures like them later on (as mana levels rise), but for now the closest you could get would be a free spirit with Realistic form, or a drone disguised as something else, neither of which are really what you're looking for.
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Objects can be Possessed, and while Possessed do some basic motion. A book could "walk" around, a laptop could snap at a hand, and so on.
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D&D and Pathfinder despite all the change are still dungeon based adventures, where treasure collection is a central part of the story, which are kept in treasure chest. Pathfinder has done a lot to make those dungeon look other things. But in the end paradigm is the same, regardless if you call a dungeon a town a series of boats, or even hex grid. But Shadowruns, generally aren't dungeon crawls, most involve people to some degree, extracting them, moving them, maybe assassinating them, lewt isn't kept in chests, and loot other then the pay day is discouraged. Sure you could have a shadowrun to go find some weird genetic changeling but let me just tell you it's not going to hard for SR team to spot a mimic in the D&D sense. Most runners will have thermal vision, which would probably give away your mimic right there, but even if that was managed disguise that somehow, there is no getting around it having a living aura, so mages will spot it easily. In the end you can put death trap and automated defense into SR are lot more easily then a weird object shapeshifters.
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Objects can be Possessed, and while Possessed do some basic motion. A book could "walk" around, a laptop could snap at a hand, and so on.
Or Inhabited, which is scary...
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Some valid points have been made, however, I still think it would be awesome to have a briefcase mimic. ::)
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Objects can be Possessed, and while Possessed do some basic motion. A book could "walk" around, a laptop could snap at a hand, and so on.
Be careful with that description of what possession allows:
Page 194 Street grimoire
Dead/Inanimate Vessels: While possessing a
nonliving vessel, the spirit adds half of its Force
to the vessel’s Structure and Armor Ratings (p.
197, SR5), Object Resistance dice pool (p. 295,
SR5), or Physical attributes, depending on the
situation and/or vessel type. The combined entity
uses its enhanced attributes (or the spirit’s, if
the vessel lacks attributes) to calculate Initiative,
and it uses the spirit’s Initiative dice. The spirit
can use any of its powers through the vessel
itself, but it can only move the vessel in ways
the vessel can normally perform. For example,
a spirit possessing a gun can fire the gun but
cannot move the gun or access any smartgun
functions. Generally, spirits can only control mechanical
functions, not anything that requires
complex electronic, DNI, or wireless control.
There is a critter from I believe 3e (at least I haven't seen it since.) which is a Succubus.
Unlike in DnD, Succubi are an octopus like creature that can only eat human flesh... And had the unique critter abilities of "Mind Probe" and "image and sound projection".
They could "read" the mind of a victim at range to find lustful desires, then they would use their Projection ability to make themselves look like what their victim desires to lure them in....
Shadowrun has a huge list of critters that based on lore and myth, just like DnD does. Many are just not what you expect...
Like the sandwich bird that turns you to stone. Or the armadillo that can wreck city blocks. Or a shark that eats boats. The hardest part is taking the 4+ critter books and translating them to 5e rules.
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There is a critter from I believe 3e (at least I haven't seen it since.) which is a Succubus.
You're thinking of an incubus. First appearance in SR1 Paranormal Animals of North America (p.90). Most recently in SR4 Running Wild (p.155).
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There is a critter from I believe 3e (at least I haven't seen it since.) which is a Succubus.
You're thinking of an incubus. First appearance in SR1 Paranormal Animals of North America (p.90). Most recently in SR4 Running Wild (p.155).
Succubus, incubus.... They are both buses :P
(Thanks, BTW)
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There is a critter from I believe 3e (at least I haven't seen it since.) which is a Succubus.
You're thinking of an incubus. First appearance in SR1 Paranormal Animals of North America (p.90). Most recently in SR4 Running Wild (p.155).
Succubus, incubus.... They are both buses :P
(Thanks, BTW)
Yeah, but the Succubus in 4e was a type of Shadow Spirit.
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There is a critter from I believe 3e (at least I haven't seen it since.) which is a Succubus.
You're thinking of an incubus. First appearance in SR1 Paranormal Animals of North America (p.90). Most recently in SR4 Running Wild (p.155).
Succubus, incubus.... They are both buses :P
(Thanks, BTW)
Succubus, incubus. Both buses: get ridden by a lot of people.
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There is a critter from I believe 3e (at least I haven't seen it since.) which is a Succubus.
You're thinking of an incubus. First appearance in SR1 Paranormal Animals of North America (p.90). Most recently in SR4 Running Wild (p.155).
Succubus, incubus.... They are both buses :P
(Thanks, BTW)
Succubus, incubus. Both buses: get ridden by a lot of people.
I would hope not!!
Ah who sm I kidding, I know lots of guys that will ride anything with a hole and a heartbeat.... and the heartbeat is optional for some...
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There is an object inhabitation (might be possession) spirit that might be what you're looking for. I think it was in Aetherology, called a Gremlin (I think). That's even a 5e book.
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We ran into incubus in an orphanage. That was a heck of an encounter.
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Also take a look at wild urban spirits from Forbidden Arcana p.158ff. Those can take the form of a lot of things up to and including ghost ships.
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Remember, a spirit can look like just about anything!
A fire spieit can be a pillar of flame, a bright shiny fire truck, or even a little girl!.
They are recgognized as spirits easly (unless they have realistic form ability), but other then that, sky's the limit on appearance
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Remember, a spirit can look like just about anything!
A fire spieit can be a pillar of flame, a bright shiny fire truck, or even a little girl!.
They are recgognized as spirits easly (unless they have realistic form ability), but other then that, sky's the limit on appearance
That is scary but very good point.
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I am actually VERY curious about how i can implement some critters into my game in a fun and interesting way. Like if i could find a unique way to bring a incubus into the game I would love it.
I had an idea for a job.
Now I dont know how intelligent or much about the incubus other than the basics but i was thinking of a serial killer is suspected around right? all the victims are crushed to death and when they ask around every witness gives a conflicting report of what they say, cause the incubus made them all see different things they desired. and the players must solve the mystery of whats been killing people.
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D&D and Pathfinder despite all the change are still dungeon based adventures, where treasure collection is a central part of the story, which are kept in treasure chest. Pathfinder has done a lot to make those dungeon look other things. But in the end paradigm is the same, regardless if you call a dungeon a town a series of boats, or even hex grid. But Shadowruns, generally aren't dungeon crawls, most involve people to some degree, extracting them, moving them, maybe assassinating them, lewt isn't kept in chests, and loot other then the pay day is discouraged. Sure you could have a shadowrun to go find some weird genetic changeling but let me just tell you it's not going to hard for SR team to spot a mimic in the D&D sense. Most runners will have thermal vision, which would probably give away your mimic right there, but even if that was managed disguise that somehow, there is no getting around it having a living aura, so mages will spot it easily. In the end you can put death trap and automated defense into SR are lot more easily then a weird object shapeshifters.
Oh yeah i get why they arent in it, id just have alot of fun with a creature that can shape shift into every day objects. Like they can look like a lamp on your bedside table until you fall asleep and than they take a bite out of you. Or lay eggs in your mouth, something like that. I wonder if there are any critters that can use illusions and camouflage easily.
That would be so cool though, Shadowrunners infeltrate a lab and turn on the infrared lights and... suddenly, desks, tables, lamps, books, they all glow and they have to take a moment to figure out whats going on and realize they are surrounded.
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Some valid points have been made, however, I still think it would be awesome to have a briefcase mimic. ::)
A briefcase, the modern treasure chest.
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Objects can be Possessed, and while Possessed do some basic motion. A book could "walk" around, a laptop could snap at a hand, and so on.
Be careful with that description of what possession allows:
Page 194 Street grimoire
Dead/Inanimate Vessels: While possessing a
nonliving vessel, the spirit adds half of its Force
to the vessel’s Structure and Armor Ratings (p.
197, SR5), Object Resistance dice pool (p. 295,
SR5), or Physical attributes, depending on the
situation and/or vessel type. The combined entity
uses its enhanced attributes (or the spirit’s, if
the vessel lacks attributes) to calculate Initiative,
and it uses the spirit’s Initiative dice. The spirit
can use any of its powers through the vessel
itself, but it can only move the vessel in ways
the vessel can normally perform. For example,
a spirit possessing a gun can fire the gun but
cannot move the gun or access any smartgun
functions. Generally, spirits can only control mechanical
functions, not anything that requires
complex electronic, DNI, or wireless control.
There is a critter from I believe 3e (at least I haven't seen it since.) which is a Succubus.
Unlike in DnD, Succubi are an octopus like creature that can only eat human flesh... And had the unique critter abilities of "Mind Probe" and "image and sound projection".
They could "read" the mind of a victim at range to find lustful desires, then they would use their Projection ability to make themselves look like what their victim desires to lure them in....
Shadowrun has a huge list of critters that based on lore and myth, just like DnD does. Many are just not what you expect...
Like the sandwich bird that turns you to stone. Or the armadillo that can wreck city blocks. Or a shark that eats boats. The hardest part is taking the 4+ critter books and translating them to 5e rules.
Actually its much easier for me cause i am not using 5e I am using HeroSystem cause my group hated the feel and flow of shadowrun ( yes i had to remake the whole damn game in another system and make sure it was balanced ) was a huge toss up betwene hero system and gurps but my table hates opposed dice checks ( rolling for dodge or armor ) so hero system was the best choice, plus we had the most experience with it.
Also that could be an awsome way to use sucubus, have a bunch of little octopuses disguised as household objects and sneaking around on ya.
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I cant believe 5e doesnt have a critters book yet.. thats a bit strange, you would think that would be one of the first you would make. Its practically a bestiary.
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I cant believe 5e doesnt have a critters book yet.. thats a bit strange, you would think that would be one of the first you would make. Its practically a bestiary.
It does. Howling Shadows.
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I cant believe 5e doesnt have a critters book yet.. thats a bit strange, you would think that would be one of the first you would make. Its practically a bestiary.
Because the 'critters' a Runner team are most likely to run into on 95+% of runs are devil/demon rats, ghouls, and spirits, which all generally have a stat block in the core book. The vast majority of your opposition are other people, not critters.
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There is a 'critter' book for 5e.
Howling Shadows.
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I cant believe 5e doesnt have a critters book yet.. thats a bit strange, you would think that would be one of the first you would make. Its practically a bestiary.
A majorty of the things runners are going to run into are people.
A monster manual is hardly neccessary for that
In addition shadowrun, as a non resource management game, is not balanced. You wont find levels and challenge ratings or experience per here.
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In addition shadowrun, as a non resource management game, is not balanced.
You're telling me!
And Holy F- does the game suffer for it.
How many years - years - could have been shaved off of the time customers had to wait for something that made Technomancers viable if someone took a little time to compare them to what already existed?
At least half of the still outstanding issues could have been prevented with a little eye towards balance.
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The intention was for technos to have details released in data trails. It even says so in the book. Then they got the idea to break it off into its own dlc book. Which then got kicked in the uesd because of drama and finally came out with kill code
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*Looks at topic subject and Bamce's post* Uhm, wait, data trails is a mimic book?_?
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I cant believe 5e doesnt have a critters book yet.. thats a bit strange, you would think that would be one of the first you would make. Its practically a bestiary.
A majorty of the things runners are going to run into are people.
A monster manual is hardly neccessary for that
In addition shadowrun, as a non resource management game, is not balanced. You wont find levels and challenge ratings or experience per here.
I know that, Iv been researching the game for like 2 months before even touching the play table haha.
And yeah i just figured out about howling shadows. Bestiary is good for veriety of encounters and keeping things interesting is all.
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In addition shadowrun, as a non resource management game, is not balanced.
You're telling me!
And Holy F- does the game suffer for it.
How many years - years - could have been shaved off of the time customers had to wait for something that made Technomancers viable if someone took a little time to compare them to what already existed?
At least half of the still outstanding issues could have been prevented with a little eye towards balance.
Conversely The whole "Technomancer" issue could have been solved but not having a Trans humanist team working of 4e and kept a Distopian team...
"Technomancer" has been a slang term to refer to Deckers since 1e... but no, they had to try to shoe horn a "magical techno wizard" into a system that was never meant to handle it... Then they compounded the issue with the very way the Matrix worked in the 4e rules to make Deckers/hackers a non-starter. Why, because there was NOTHING a decker could do that a moron with 1s in all stats and a stack of cash couldn't do...
Really, I could rant on this topic that would cover a half dozen pages... but I doubt anyone would read it :P
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Conversely The whole "Technomancer" issue could have been solved but not having a Trans humanist team working of 4e and kept a Distopian team...
Now, now. Some of us like Transhumanism...
That said, I still don't like technos. Mostly because like a lot of other things CGL can't seem to decide what they want of be, so they wind up as Wizards and hackers awkwardly mashed together with a (imo) depressing lack of originality. Technos bump heads hard with riggers/deckers. The resonance realms and whatnot are straight rip offs of the metaplanes with a different coat of paint slapped on, and on and on. The whole thing looks and feels weird together and just feels awkwardly jammed into the system.
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Conversely The whole "Technomancer" issue could have been solved but not having a Trans humanist team working of 4e and kept a Distopian team...
Now, now. Some of us like Transhumanism...
That said, I still don't like technos. Mostly because like a lot of other things CGL can't seem to decide what they want of be, so they wind up as Wizards and hackers awkwardly mashed together with a (imo) depressing lack of originality. Technos bump heads hard with riggers/deckers. The resonance realms and whatnot are straight rip offs of the metaplanes with a different coat of paint slapped on, and on and on. The whole thing looks and feels weird together and just feels awkwardly jammed into the system.
Trans humanism has its place in Sci-fi, I am not denying that. But you don't take a game (at that time) with 20+ years of dystonia and then throw in a whole new, and converse ideology into the mix. No, you branch out and make a whole new setting/game based around the trans-humanist plot... AKA Eclipse Phase. (Which, incidentally, I believe was created by the very writers that introduced Technomancers to Shadowrun!)
And, don't forget that the "technomancer issue" is one that was inherited from FanPro and their time with the SR license. (the original creators of SR 4e)
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My group's Las Vegas shaman transformed a shipping container full of blue betameth (couldn't help but put in the Breaking Bad reference there) into a dragon.
Meth The Magic Dragon was just an illusion, however, and due to miscommunication (more like no communication), the Street Samurai went "Challenge Accepted!" and attacked it with his sword, ruining the illusion.
But, yeah, I could see a toxic spirit hiding out as a bag of novacoke or something and then doing even worse things to the user than the drug itself.
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Conversely The whole "Technomancer" issue could have been solved but not having a Trans humanist team working of 4e and kept a Distopian team...
To be clear, the Technomancer Archetype evolved (if you will) from Otaku that were introduced in Virtual Realities in 2nd Edition when Shadowrun was still under FASA. If you are going to point fingers, at least get it right.
Now, it can be said that FanPro is responsible for the transformation into Technomancers. For all I know it could have been a licensing limitation.
Regardless, the current state of Technomancers (withholding anything from Kill Code that I'm still waiting to read for myself) is firmly in realm of Catalyst. Like Technos or not, Catalyst made them what they are. No amount of deflection can change that.
Back to the original topic:
The biggest roadblock for anything mimc-ish is a lack of digital... Signature for lack of a better word. In the Sixth World, from about the 60's onward, everything has electronics in them. Even Throwbacks. That is pretty hard to fake, unless you go The Ruins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ruins_(film)) route. And please, please, don't.
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To be clear, the Technomancer Archetype evolved (if you will) from Otaku that were introduced in Virtual Realities in 2nd Edition when Shadowrun was still under FASA. If you are going to point fingers, at least get it right.
And, don't forget that the "technomancer issue" is one that was inherited from FanPro and their time with the SR license. (the original creators of SR 4e)
Next time try reading Reaver's whole post. The Technomancer issue at the end of 4th, was that they were overwhelmingly broken. They had the ability thread a skill into a unlimited techno skillwire meaning you could generate 20 die pool on any skill in the game.
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That was a false problem. It is like looking at a 3.X Level 10 Wizard who had prepared expressly for a single arena battle against a foe of their level knowing who he would be facing and what they could do, and saying they are horribly overpowered. In the sense of an actual dungeon crawl or campaign, however, the 'problem' was greatly reduced if not eliminated by the third combat in a day. Either the wizard saved his spells, and was FAR less effective, or he blew his wad early, and forced the group to sleep in the dungeon while he waited for new spells.
A TM could thread up to some high level Complex Forms with their skills. However, they were glass cannons when it came to matrix combat, since all damage went straight to their brain. A bad roll on the resist for Fading in getting that Uber-Form or Uber-Sprite? You're out of action for hours trying to sleep it off. It was one of those things that rarely came up in any game I saw, because the risk outweighed the reward when you considered you needed to save some gas in the tank for the rest of the run (and heaven help you if you needed to respond to bullets flying in the meat at any point after dealing with matrix combat).
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The only time High Karma mages were not the biggest BAs of SR was during the Cybermancy days. But you might notice we still have never seem those rules get updated lol. The skill TM took a good bit of karma to achieve but it was no kidding strong. Once done right it could trounce something pretty well ahead of it in Karma. Sure if you battle royal it, full quickened mages and mysads are gonna win. If you don't have counter spell, mana spells are gonna win every time, one of the reason I've always pushed indirects. That's the reality of the system. If you wanna convince them to put Cybermancy back in, that can change, but I don't really wanna see that happen.
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Next time try reading Reaver's whole post.
High-larious, given the source. Let me help you out.
You quoted Reaver:
And, don't forget that the "technomancer issue" is one that was inherited from FanPro and their time with the SR license. (the original creators of SR 4e)
Then you write:
The Technomancer issue at the end of 4th, was that they were overwhelmingly broken. They had the ability thread a skill into a unlimited techno skillwire meaning you could generate 20 die pool on any skill in the game.
Point out to me where in the very quote you used it mentions anything about brokenness?? For that matter, where in that entire post - or even Reaver's one before it - does it mention anything about Technomancer mechanics?
Reaver was talking, and repeatedly referencing, Technos as a problem from a Trans humanist perspective / writing team. And that issue came from 2nd Edition, under FASA.
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Next time try reading Reaver's whole post.
High-larious, given the source. Let me help you out.
You quoted Reaver:
And, don't forget that the "technomancer issue" is one that was inherited from FanPro and their time with the SR license. (the original creators of SR 4e)
Then you write:
The Technomancer issue at the end of 4th, was that they were overwhelmingly broken. They had the ability thread a skill into a unlimited techno skillwire meaning you could generate 20 die pool on any skill in the game.
Point out to me where in the very quote you used it mentions anything about brokenness?? For that matter, where in that entire post - or even Reaver's one before it - does it mention anything about Technomancer mechanics?
Reaver was talking, and repeatedly referencing, Technos as a problem from a Trans humanist perspective / writing team. And that issue came from 2nd Edition, under FASA.
How about now FastJack? I was good, I turned the other cheek.
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Conversely The whole "Technomancer" issue could have been solved but not having a Trans humanist team working of 4e and kept a Distopian team...
To be clear, the Technomancer Archetype evolved (if you will) from Otaku that were introduced in Virtual Realities in 2nd Edition when Shadowrun was still under FASA. If you are going to point fingers, at least get it right.
Now, it can be said that FanPro is responsible for the transformation into Technomancers. For all I know it could have been a licensing limitation.
Regardless, the current state of Technomancers (withholding anything from Kill Code that I'm still waiting to read for myself) is firmly in realm of Catalyst. Like Technos or not, Catalyst made them what they are. No amount of deflection can change that.
Back to the original topic:
The biggest roadblock for anything mimc-ish is a lack of digital... Signature for lack of a better word. In the Sixth World, from about the 60's onward, everything has electronics in them. Even Throwbacks. That is pretty hard to fake, unless you go The Ruins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ruins_(film)) route. And please, please, don't.
well, you're part right.
back cover of SR1e.
I refer you to the second paragraph...
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AND, from page 34 of SR1e.
So, I say again:
"Technomancer" has been a slang term to refer to Deckers since 1e... but no, they had to try to shoe horn a "magical techno wizard" into a system that was never meant to handle it... Then they compounded the issue with the very way the Matrix worked in the 4e rules to make Deckers/hackers a non-starter. Why, because there was NOTHING a decker could do that a moron with 1s in all stats and a stack of cash couldn't do...
Otaku, are/were entirely separate things. Things that were almost entirely killed off during Crash 2.0 and the events of Winternight.
They then went back and retconned the "Otaku to Technomancer" thing when they decided to introduce Technos into 4e. The Otaku connection isn't even mentioned officially until Unwired. (which I believe came out after Emergence, the big Techno intro sourcebook/adventure)
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Now you are getting confusing.
Is your issue with Technomancer based on the Trans humanist team?
Or because it is a slang term for Decker?
Or because they crammed Otaku 2.0 into that slang term?
Maybe all three?
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Now you are getting confusing.
Is your issue with Technomancer based on the Trans humanist team?
Or because it is a slang term for Decker?
Or because they crammed Otaku 2.0 into that slang term?
Maybe all three?
My issue with Technomancers is that they even exist.
But i'm stuck with them now.
How much do I dislike them?
Well lets just say that if the opening line of Killcode went:
"In 2071 The Megacorps agreed to start adding vitamin supplement KA-134-Beta to all soy products. Also know as KA-Beta, this supplement was marketed as a combination mineral and vitamin supplement to ensure people on a Soy diet remain healthy. However, Ka-Beta also has a hidden effect, it attaches to the DNA responsible for emergence, and alters the genetic code, removing the Emergence Gene from their DNA. By 2077 KA-134-Beta has the reached saturation point globally. No new Emergence has been reported, and those who did Emerge are reporting massive spikes of Cancer, tumors, embolisms, and other organ failure. To the MegaCorps, it seems the near Omnipotent threat that Technomancers posed to their digital security was just too great."
And now on to some really great and totally NON technomancer themed stuff for Deckers and Riggers! YAY!
But I Know that won't happen.
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My issue with Technomancers is that they even exist.
But i'm stuck with them now.
LOL Can't breath laughing to hard, send help LOL
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My issue with Technomancers is that they even exist.
But i'm stuck with them now.
I can get behind that.
All they need is a Sprite / Complex Form that gives them increased initiative and / or initiative dice, and they can start poaching from all the other archetypes too. While they don't poach Magic exactly, they do their own thing that is just like it.
They really do kill "design space," to use a game design term.
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Well at-least you have accepted it Reaver, it's the first step to getting over it!
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Well at-least you have accepted it Reaver, it's the first step to getting over it!
I'm on Step 13 of the 12 step recovery program.
Step 12 was acceptance of what you can not change. I accept that Technos are here to stay.
Step 13: Drink until the pain of step 12 goes away....
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Well at-least you have accepted it Reaver, it's the first step to getting over it!
I'm on Step 13 of the 12 step recovery program.
Step 12 was acceptance of what you can not change. I accept that Technos are here to stay.
Step 13: Drink until the pain of step 12 goes away....
Was step 3-11 drink until you accept the problem?
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Crying. I remember there was crying.
And "throw tantrum"....
I just can't remember where "Curl up into a ball and suck your thumb" fell in there.... At least i HOPE it was in there..
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To be fair, I think TMs definitely can be done nicely, even if you hate them. =P Something like Intuition-based on-the-fly-only people, maybe creating momentum as they hack in the form of Sprites giving them bonuses. No Cyberdecks, no Marks, no permanent Sprites stuff, building up Overwatch like a mother. But no Marks means no 'ok, let's make this thing do X after I hacked it twenty minutes ago'. And no poorly-phrased Diagnostics that people keep insisting works on guns even though it talks about TOOLS.... *GRRRRRRR*
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I think you should give him some space Michael. I think we all made real progress today. Reaver completed his 12 step program, that's really tough ya know.
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No one would ever have accept that Diagnostic usage if the class hadn't been utterly lobotomized. I'm fairly sure things will be set to right next week.
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To be fair, I think TMs definitely can be done nicely, even if you hate them. =P Something like Intuition-based on-the-fly-only people, maybe creating momentum as they hack in the form of Sprites giving them bonuses. No Cyberdecks, no Marks, no permanent Sprites stuff, building up Overwatch like a mother. But no Marks means no 'ok, let's make this thing do X after I hacked it twenty minutes ago'. And no poorly-phrased Diagnostics that people keep insisting works on guns even though it talks about TOOLS.... *GRRRRRRR*
I really do hope they come up with something that works for Technos.
I may hate them with a red hot passion I usually only reserve for the Ex-wife, but I also recognize that other people do like them. And even though I do take a perverse glee in the fact that they ARE so broken (does that make me a bad person?), It's not fair for those that do enjoy them.
And really, my problem with technos is solved by not playing them.. As it stands, those that do like technos don't have that option :(
And everyone's fun should come before my own person whims on the matter, especially since I can just choose to not play them.
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I'm going to take a few electrons here, and expand on why I do dislike technomancers, just because statements I have made here tie into other threads and statements that I have there, and I just realized not everyone reads all the threads like I do. (Yes, I have no life ATM, its wonderful!).
Shadowrun has been dear to my heart for a long time because for one, I am as old as dirt. (I saw your complaints FastJack, I got a couple of years on you!). And shadowrun at it's time was the perfect blend of genre of the time. "Tolkien Meets Blade Runner" isn't just a catch phase for some of us. Its a statement that speaks to a generation that grew up reading Tolkien's Hobbit as required reading in school, and the Neon lights, loud music, and leather stylings that predominated every action movie of the time.
The biggest movies of our generation were Terminator, Star Wars, and Blade Runner.... Black leather, lasers, and space magic :D
And all this under the real threat of Nuclear war. (Remember kiddies, The Cold War? Yea, fun times on the paranoia train!)
Sure, there was other Dystopian themed games. Sure there was other Cyberpunk games. Fantasy has been there forever.
But it was Shadowrun that combined everything together for the first time. Even if it did piss off one of the very people that inspired it.
Shadowrun was also very careful in what they attempted to do. They could see that they were trying to combine 3 very different games into one setting. (A magical, a physical, and a digital). And they also wanted to explore the essence of Cyberpunk. Man Vs Tech. Machine VS soul. Blood Vs electron. Tech gone awry.
The design choices were bold for the time. instead of a "level" system that the most popular games of that era used, they went with a karma system. Instead of using odd shaped dice, they chose to make a system that used the common cube die. instead of a floating, variable structural life system, they choose to limit all health to 10.
From there, they laid out the foundations of the setting, and the 3 core elements. Magic, Technology, and Digital. then placed limits on their interactions.
It was pretty clear where things stood for a long time.
The Digital space, and anything that was mechanic fell under the domain of two technological powerhouses.
The Rigger who was a master of all things that moved. From cars, to drones, to ships to aircraft. If it was a physical object and moved, the Rigger could use it better then it could use itself.
If it received, sent, encoded, decoded information, then it was the realm of the Decker, whose ability to crack code was almost "Technomanic"....They were the Wizards of the Matrix.
On the Magical side of things, you had to opposite traditions of magic. The cold science of the Hermetic magic (the "techy" side of magic ), and you have the holistic Shamantic tradition.
They both did essentially did the exact same thing, it was just their approach that differed.
On the Physical side of things;
You had the cybernetic powerhouse of the Sammy who paid for his power with his very soul.
And you had his polar opposite, the adept, whose magic re-enforced and strengthened his body, but only if he kept it pure..
Everything had it counter, and was balanced on a philosophical principle and less on a mechanical principle....
And then you had the glorious, wonderful, frightening, rage educing, side splitting fun times that happened when these elements meant in odd combinations. Coupled with poor reading of the rules, poor wording, and a first edition of a brand new rule set... and it was great! Remember kiddies if you had questions back then, you had to write them out on a piece of paper, and then MAIL them to FASA. None of this "Me gonna whine on a forum and me sum answoz!!" Shit.
NO Sir! You said"Please" and "Thank you" and were POLITE! You even included a self addressed postage paid envelope to return the answer to you! The smart ones even mailed in REAL MONEY! - And you never, if ever heard back. IF you were lucky Dragon Magazine may run a FAQ article with FASA about something. But other then that, you fuckkin figured it out yerselves!
So, of course a second edition came about and cleaned up some of the "oops" and "whoops" and the "We are sorry please don't take our thumbs!" mistakes.
Of course it wasn't perfect. There were errors of all types, the system was extremely complex. The learning curve was steep, and the incident of "bleeding eyeballs" was
great. it was during 2e that the stories got darke.. and I do mean Darke... with magical nasties that only dragons souls could slow down dark... Magic was probably at its highest point of power at this point.... but that came a steep cost for the awakened thanks to how all the rules played out...
3e, was probably the edition I like the most. It was Lethal, complex, divisive, diverse, and had soul... but I also started to notice things creeping in that I didn't care for.
3e was also when SR decided to focus on the matrix side of things much more heavily. And it made sense.. Y2K was right around the corner and some people really thought the world was going to end as the clocks all rolled over to 00:00:00:00:00.... So the threat of some accidental coding error killing us all was in the public mind. Factor in movies like Lawnmowerman, and 1999, that were popular at the time, and it made sense to focus in the "evils" of tech and code.
But they also started threading in something else, something that went against their established Cyberpunk roots... A thread of Transhumanism, and the holistic connection of man and machine implied by transhumanism - the very opposite of the very core of itself. At First these threads were very small, and limited to the Otaku, an npc organization of special people that could interface with the matrix without ASIST tech. Something that Deckers had to pay for. (if only a very minor 0.5 essence for the datajack).
But then, they opened them up for limited (and cautioned NOT to use!) play... one more step down that road... thank fully they put a limit on Otaku, the older they got, the weaker their abilites got. (And keep in mind, the only difference at this point was 1 single item)
And the End of 3e comes with the giant cliffhanger of just how Fucked the world is. The matrix is swiss cheese and tens of thousands of people are in comas. Winternight's bombs, caused mayhem, Government coup attempts and rumored counter attempts left us wondering who was really in charge. And the Otaku slaughtered almost to the man by asssianation and death squads, betrayed by one of their own.
4e was going to be GREAT!!!!!
So 4e comes out and read it. And read it. And. Read. It.....
And so began my 12 step program to get over technomancers.
On the surface, its was still shadowrun. It had Trogs, and Tuskers, Pointy Ears, and Stubbies. There were even Hatchetman! (in spirit) And Jack!
But there was a serious cancer in there too. I looked and did the math...
Magic was a little thrown off, but this happened in 3e with the introduction of the UMT, and the effort to make more "Traditions" instead of working the Hermetic/shamanic divide. - in my humble opinion, they could of done both. Kept the divide, and increase the traditions.
But it was workable. Sadly I saw openings that would have to monitored for attempted exploits as things that were clear before were more murky now. (the mixture of tech and magic. Teleportation, returning to life, and other taboos.) and was unimpressed by the some game choices here. (that's not for now. and would be surprising to many i think!)
Physical space was still the Domain with Sammies and Adepts fingering each other and Riggers being a wildcard. But there was a smell.....
The matrix.
Oh god the Matrix!
I read. I cried. I praised the gaming gods. And then I re-read, paying very close attention. I cried. And I cried. (I was still in denial at this point, so my journey on the 12 step
program had yet to happen).
At first i could instantly see what they were trying to do. They were trying to cut down on the decker mini-game, and thus make decking a more palatable option for group play. But something was off.. very off.
I looked at the classes that 4e presented:
The Hacker
The Technomancer
The Rigger
<I think I just shat myself>
There were 3 classes... and looking deeper, what did I find... I found a clusterfuck of shit. In the presentation of lore, in the mechanics that governed them, and their interactions with everything else.
Looking at success resolution for magic and physical, it was pretty clear the formula. (SKILL)+(ATTRIB) VS <defense of whatever mechanic>
But not so for "hackers" They were this odd mix of (Skill)+(SOFTWARE)......
Technomancers followed a mechanic similar to magic, filtered into this (skill)+(software) mechanic through their threading of abilities, and defended by some strange conversion of their mental stats into a living commlink... to satisfy their strange defense mechanics..
Riggers, were thrown into this stew pot and giving the flavor of Rigger... as they handled everything with the same test mechanic of the matrix.... minus exceptional situations.
It was blindingly clear to me. They had broken the digital side of the game design by ignoring their very core of the game system's Cyberpunk roots -which is the polar opposite of transhumanism. They had tried to include a "holistic" digital element into a system that was never designed to allow for the concept. And in doing so had broken the core mechanics that lay in the foundation of the game.
And I think by the 3rd Source book FanPro knew it too. Things went dead on the matrix side of the game for a long, long while....
The 4e20a version cleaned up some problems, that is very true. But at the core, there was this festering boil that, in one fell swoop of "inclusion" had broken essentially 3, and potentially ALL arch-types in the game.
Now why do i say this? It's the change of the mechanics to the digital side of things to allow for technomancers that, effectively killed dedicated hackers, and even riggers to an extent.
The Magic side, and Physical, and even the digital side all ran off a similar power mechanic for progression all the way up to 4e.
from 1 to 3:
For the Magical side: you had 2 ATTRIB combined into a spell pool that you could use + (ATTRIB)+(Skill)
For the Physical side you had 2 ATTRIB combined into a combat pool and you could use + (Attrib)+(Skill)
For the digtal side you had 2 ATTRIB combined into a Matrix pool and you could use (skill)OR(attrib)+(Device)* this been the deck, the drone, the car they all had matching stats for their intended targets.
So things were Different.
Now everyone's pools were reduced, and the mechanics much easier to follow.... but there was a problem. Physical and magical still ran off of a (Attrib)+(Skill) mechanic....
And defense was a (Attrib)+(attrib)+(Skill) test... Combine this with the way Hackers, and Riggers now worked...
Well, they both as a dedicated class when *poof* faster then triple chocolate fudge ice-cream does into a teen girl after they have been dumped. (As a Father, of a Teen Girl, I can attest this is frightening! They can easily consume 4 times their mass while crying, texting 3 different girlfriends, talking into a phone, and plotting the painful vivisection of her former love interest. Their Mothers train them well.)
Hacking became a add-on to the Sammy. Rigging went great with adepts...
And their, flopping alone as the sole dedicated Digital archetype specialization... The Technomancer, forced to be a specialization by its requirement of attributes and skills, crippled by its requirements for attributes and skills.. they sat their alone. In the dark. Being very sad...
And someone had the bright idea to toss in the radioactive cookie of "If I can touch it, I can FUCK IT!"......oh, and Spirites got a teeny tiny upgrade.... so they went from kinda cute and useful to.... OMFGAREYOUFUCKINGKIDDINGME!!!! as they got spray electron jizz on shit and somehow it gave you +9787.00003 extra dice to everything... Except for resisting in THE ONE FUCKING AREA YOU ACTUALLY NEEDED A BUFF IN!!! - matrix damage.
<drinks more beer. Smokes>
<smokes>
<Beer>
Anyways. Now here we are in 5e.
Some clean up of the damage I feel that was inflicted by 4e is getting cleaned up... Sure there are rough spots, and there errors in both judgement and writing that need cleaning up.... But I still see this... boil in the rules as they attempt to bow out and fit in the concept that really doesn't belong in the setting...
There's a lot strain in the Digital side of the game as they attempt to pull things into alignment, its hard trying to balance 3 archtypes, using 2 different mechanics. And its showing.
Deckers are working well for the most part.. Riggers are breaking under the strain of trying to saddle 2 lines, and failing... and Technomancers have gotten the royal shaft.
And the fact that they are getting the royal shift is unfortunate because now that the genie is out of the bottle, and they have a following; a serious attempt has to be made to
bring them not only back into the fold, but make them a viable archtype without becoming Stupid again.
-
If you want mimics -- at least for the critter side -- you want a protean. An evolution that enables it to mostly imitate an inanimate object it has engulfed ... might not be out of bounds.