Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: icefyer on <09-06-18/1509:33>
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So, I noticed after browsing a bit that Dwagonzahn and co were attempting a rework on drakes to make them useful beyond being a "140 karma Idiot Trap" as I've heard them referred to both here and on the discord, and I was wondering if anyone's heard of any progress on it or the like, or if they have their own ideas of how to make it usable?
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Sorry mate , never done anything with drakes :-\
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One general house rule is not to double the cost of qualities post creation. Beyond that I've not really messed much with
dragonborn drakes.
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That still leaves them with a 75 or so karma quality when a lot of their stuff can easily be replicated otherwise. Why go for fire breath when you can spend 5 karma on a flamethrower spell? Why fly when Levitate for 5 karma + a spirit with the Movement power is a thing for much cheaper than the 75 karma + the 20 or so more to fly? It just seems generally extremely weak.
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Drake really need to be done in a game based around playing drakes. Where players and GM come to a reasonable understanding what is expected concerning creation. Trying to pair a drake with normal runners is unlikely to result in a great experience.
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How so, other than the whole "wanted by dragons, mary sue, etc" thing? I'm not really sure why the devs thought a 75 / 140 karma trait is a good pricing considering everything can be replicated easily with much cheaper options.
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Like all major super naturals they don't want them just showing up as players character along side normal runners.
Those book are generally regards a good novels, and there no reason that story line be stolen and work for a whole team instead of just one character.
More scope!
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How so, other than the whole "wanted by dragons, mary sue, etc" thing? I'm not really sure why the devs thought a 75 / 140 karma trait is a good pricing considering everything can be replicated easily with much cheaper options.
Well there are analogues, but not always true replication. For example, the Flamethrower spell is subject to counterspelling/spell defense. Critter Powers such as Flame Breath aren't.
But beyond those slight advantages, getting to be a special snowflake is an intangible advantage all in itself. If you're playing a Drake and noone else is, you're Special. Being less powerful (i.e. you 'overpaid' in karma to play a Drake) is IMO a fair trade for buying your way to the center of the story. (and of course if everyone is playing a Drake, then balance is balanced ;) )
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But question is, are those small bonuses worth paying upwards of 140+ karma just for that and "being special"? Doesn't really seem so.
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But question is, are those small bonuses worth paying upwards of 140+ karma just for that and "being special"? Doesn't really seem so.
It is priced deliberately to discourage them from showing up in game.
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But question is, are those small bonuses worth paying upwards of 140+ karma just for that and "being special"? Doesn't really seem so.
It is priced deliberately to discourage them from showing up in game.
Exactly.
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Why even offer them at all then if they're not supposed to be played?
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Why even offer them at all then if they're not supposed to be played?
There's a difference between not being allowed and being deliberately disincentivized.
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Why even offer them at all then if they're not supposed to be played?
I answered this already. SR isn't one sized fits all. There lots and lots of ways to play SR that go beyond what's in the CORE. A Drake game is great idea. Some will love it, some will q-q, but that's life.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play.
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Why even offer them at all then if they're not supposed to be played?
I answered this already. SR isn't one sized fits all. There lots and lots of ways to play SR that go beyond what's in the CORE. A Drake game is great idea. Some will love it, some will q-q, but that's life.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play.
I'd opine that playing a Drake in a 'straight' Shadowrun campaign is borderline 'wrong' however. If everyone goes as bizarre as the Drake, it's really no longer fitting into the usual/default assumptions about what the Shadowrun genre fundamentally is. Makes perfect sense to me that if you're gonna push the envelope, you must "pay" for it by playing a sub-optimized character.
But as mentioned upthread: if you're not playing a typical campaign, then go nuts. An all Lone Star PCs campaign would be hella fun, I think. So could a Freak Show assortment of Sasquatches, Drakes, and spirits-knows-what-else.
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What do you guys think of something like reply # 84 on https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=25203.75 or https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=25512.0 ?
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If you read that Drake thread, then you already know how I feel about Drakes.
If you are trying to fit a Drake or two into you game as a GM, then do whatever you think is best for your table.
If you are looking to play a Drake at a table, talk to the GM first and see what he says, but showing up WITH a drake character, made by a bunch of unofficial houserules, and then oiled over with a "its from the official forums", never, ever goes over well...
Yes, they are expensive as all hell to play. They are not meant for "Missions" style play, nor are they for a mini-campaign. They are for long haul, multi hundred to thousand karma games, where the Drake can evolve over the flow of the living campaign and "grow" into his "drakness".
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I think now and forever use the drake from the book, for whatever edition you're playing in. House rules have places, but drakes are snow flakes, to begin with. Don't try house rule them into point value functionality. It's not what's intended.
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I'd opine that playing a Drake in a 'straight' Shadowrun campaign is borderline 'wrong' however. If everyone goes as bizarre as the Drake, it's really no longer fitting into the usual/default assumptions about what the Shadowrun genre fundamentally is. Makes perfect sense to me that if you're gonna push the envelope, you must "pay" for it by playing a sub-optimized character.
But as mentioned upthread: if you're not playing a typical campaign, then go nuts. An all Lone Star PCs campaign would be hella fun, I think. So could a Freak Show assortment of Sasquatches, Drakes, and spirits-knows-what-else.
If you choose to play really crappy character for the amount of karma it takes to make a drake functional, and the table is legitimately OK with carrying the dead weight until then, more power to you.
But it's something the table should discuss as a whole.
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Levitate + Movement wouldn't combine anyway. Levitate lets you move something at a certain max speed. It does not give you a flying speed of X, so you can't just boost that with Movement. (Not to mention that technically Movement needs houserules to even work, since it explicitly says in domain but the only domain ever sorta specified is that of Free Spirits with a background count home.)
Anyway, if you want to play a Drake, discuss with GM. If you want to allow Drakes, discuss with players. Yes, these things are expensive freaks. That's because they're actually rare, not 'mage'-rare.
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Part of the point I wanted to ask is because my GM is fine with them, I was just wondering if anyone had any ways to make them not a 140+ karma trap. I know they're "Super special mary sue snowflakes" that pretty much no GM I'm aware of other than a few "unicorn GMs" allow. I know they're hunted by dragons and talismongers and such. I know they're rare. I was just looking to make them actually worth taking rather than costing 200+ karma that most games will never even see from what I've been told because missions hand out 6 karma best case scenario so it would take years to get what I'd need.
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In short no, if you wanna play a drake you gotta pay for privileged, and that means a pile of points. But I think your doing GM dis-service, lots of GM are open to discussion. It helps if you established history with GM, but many folks are open to cool game ideas, like an all Drake party, or all unique snow flake party. HMHVV varientes, some drakes, Pixies, maybe shapeshifters. GMs may be open to extra points or some other house rule to handle that sort situation, and if they aren't atleast you won't be as far behind.
Keep in mind karma gains aren't set in stone, and there are options like Cash to Karma. But yes it does take A LOT of karma to get a drake up, but when you do they are no kidding strong, adept or full mage, and you have really have a nut cruncher of a character. Now finding a GM who will run a campaign long enough to achieve that result is very difficult, but they do exist.
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I just don't see why they're powerful enough on their own to warrant such an absurd amount of points that most games would never even see. Most of the stuff they have is easily replicated through spells and other things for much cheaper.
In my experience most of my GMs I've had are people who do self-inserts, or who rage at my mage for being "not magical enough" because I wasn't waving my hands around and chanting Latin and instead had spells and spirits modeled after sci-fi as a Logic tradition like spirits that took the form of robots, screaming at me for 5 minutes over a character they approved before kicking me out of both the Roll20 and the Skype / Discord group, or who help me stat out a character only to laugh in my face and boot me out when I try to actually use it...Or who when I attempt to stat out a character on my own for the first time rage at my newbie questions and boot me out anyway despite "welcoming new players"...
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That sucks. I mean the whole idea of different magic types is that they behave differently. And if you work with your players, it is your responsibility to properly communicate about what yes and what no. I banned Orgasm but wouldn't first let it slide only to kick someone out for it later
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Sounds like you have some bad luck on online games, I'd recommend trying your local game story, join pathfinder or another gaming league are often good ways to meet like minded gamers. Build your group up from there. I would try not to be confrontational.
If you really don't understand why drakes are costed as they are after it has been discussed at this length there is issue there, and I suspect it's related to why your not having great success in other area. I'm not really sure what to call that issue but I would consider thinking on the subject further.
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I'm just not sure why it's highly priced when its stuff is either a downside or it can be replicated easier / better with other things and it only comes into its own when you have 400+ or so karma behind it, other than "It's not meant for players" or "It's a Special Snowflake".
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icefyer, I don't know what to tell you that hasn't been said multiple times throughout the thread. However, I will add that part of that cost is not apparent in the mechanics. Being a Drake means you get an automatic invitation to the 'big leagues'. I'm talking about the games of Dragons and Immortal Elves. Whether that invitation is friendly or an 'invitation' that involves you waking up in your new owner's lair for 'education' depends on who finds you, but that's besides the point. The cost is there to discourage people from going places that mere runners aren't meant to go.
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More than just an invitation, being a drake means there's a chance for those players (Great Dragons and Immortal Elves) to actually stop and listen to you instead of just brushing you off. GMed well, a lot of the consequence is ... not to be found in tehcnicals.