Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Backfire on <02-03-11/2123:46>

Title: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: Backfire on <02-03-11/2123:46>
Ok this has probably been discussed already but here goes. Does anyone have any theories on why the magic level in the shadowrun world fluctuates? Is it natural, is it a side effect of dragon ritualistic magic? Anyone have any ideas?
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <02-03-11/2126:57>
It's like the tides.  As time goes by, the different planes get "closer" or "further" away from each other.   The "closer" they are, the more energy can be exchanged between them (i.e. magic).

When they get close enough to our plane, then the Horrors can bridge the gap and breach the fabric between worlds and enter ours to devour all living things.
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: Ultra Violet on <02-03-11/2151:54>
The last magic age was artificially extended by the Atlanteans, they created some magical devices that stored or stabilized mana and caped the magical potential alive. But it did only worked a couple of centuries (maybe a millennium) but on one day Atlantis was lost. And that was the End of the 4th world and the beginning of the 5th world...

Here is the official version: http://www.shadowrun4.com/fiction/fiction1.shtml
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: thalandar on <02-03-11/2211:32>
Actually, I heard that artifacts were the key to hidden caches of magical knowledge-magically knowledge that survived from the 4th world to the sixth world.
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <02-03-11/2214:58>
The magical devices that UV is referring to are three towers made of pure orichalcum approximately 100 feet tall.

So not an artifact, per se.
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: Backfire on <02-05-11/1040:54>
Do you know what book the three towers are mentioned in???
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: Fizzygoo on <02-05-11/1735:49>
Here is the official version

< IC > Ha! Erhan and his pro-elven propaganda speech given to aristocratic brats to fuel their warm fuzzies is always trotted out as an example of elven superiority. Even if that old coot did live for thousands of years it didn't do him any good, unless your going to show that he invented the silicon chip in some cave with Gilgamesh and Moses. < /IC > :)

At its essence, the Cycle of Magic makes for a great meta-story element and it weaves well with Aztec, Maya, Aboriginal (Dreamtime), Greek (Plato's Atlantis), Celtic/Irish (arrival of the Tuatha Dé Danann) and even Judeo-Christian (Genesis 6:4, I Enoch, Revelations) and others' myths, legends, and texts.

Like The_Gun_Nut said, it's like the tides, but the fun part is that each and every culture and sub-culture will have their own interpretation...which is why there probably will never be an official "why" it occurs in cycles...unless some MIT&T researcher makes some major metaplanar-theory breakthrough. The tides are caused by the gravitational play between the Moon and Earth (and to a lesser extent the Sun), so with mana being the tidal waters what is the force (gravity-like) that manipulates mana (or the astral-physical locality) and, even more intriguing, where does that force originate from? :)
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: agustaaquila on <02-06-11/2128:44>
Well, that assumes that you can study magic scientifically, and while the hermetic traditions might say this is so all the shamanistic  traditions will disagree.  The basic split over the hermetic/shamanistic magic worldviews means that there will be at least two explanations for why magic comes and goes.
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: FastJack on <02-07-11/0020:14>
Well, that assumes that you can study magic scientifically, and while the hermetic traditions might say this is so all the shamanistic  traditions will disagree.  The basic split over the hermetic/shamanistic magic worldviews means that there will be at least two explanations for why magic comes and goes.
Plus all the other traditions...
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: Fizzygoo on <02-07-11/1750:03>
@ agustaaquila, hehe. Very true. Just the other night I got into a discussion with one of my players, though I argued the side of the shaman as he was arguing that of the hermetic. Here, it's just an easy switch to the other side to say, "well, we hermetic mages have and do study magic scientifically. We have made hypothesis, tested them, had other hermetics evaluate and retest our results. There has been so much scientific research in magic that MIT added another T and at every major university one can find programs in Thaumaturgical Theory for both the mundane and awakened to study and apply in their lives. The Anthropological Thaumaturgist is able to point out the similarities and divergences between hermeticism and other traditions, with cognitive MRI mapping of casters' bodies indicating where stress, neurological activity, and so forth was taking place during casting or summoning. And thaumaturgical science has even entered the applied fields by engineering materials that impede and conduct magical energies. Magic is simply another natural force in the world and the scientific method is well suited to its study."

Of course the Shaman would disagree, pointing out that it is emotion and will and the need of the individual being met by the Great Father and Mother at the moment of spell casting which can never be poked or prodded, tested or tied down to the scientific method.

With in the game setting, both are right (and conversely neither is wrong as both are able to produce results based on their intent).

But it does break down a bit at the meta-game level as there are rules for how magic works, how spells are cast, drain resisted, and save for flavor of spirits summoned and what linked attribute is used for resisting drain magic, it works the same regardless of traditions. This ultimately will allow the hermetic to win the argument because the hermetic will be able to make predictions on the various outcomes of the shaman's castings; for example the hermetic can say, well, if you cast fireball spell that has a radius of X meters I should see Y level of physiological stress in the caster to the point where if X > 10 meters and the shaman is not initiated then the hermetic can expect, with good probability, that the shaman will fall unconscious or even die (all with variables of the caster's health, age, experience, taken into account and adjusting the X - Y relationship of course).

As a GM I want to tweak with the system to make things a little more "even" in the hermetic/shamaic ideological relationship. My initial thoughts are traditions that use Logic gain a either a constant +1 die to all spellcasting/summoning tests or +1 die to resist drain due to the tried and true "logic" of their traditions, while those that use Intuition will receive either a +1 die to spellcasting/summong or a +1 die to resist drain or a secondary magical effect (though always resulting in a neutral to beneficial outcome for the caster sans any glitch) up to the GM at every instance of casting for the Shaman. Or, at the very least, add in a bit of a chaos-factor to Intuition based spellcasting/summoning traditions. ...but I'm not yet ready to house rule anything :)

Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: Frostriese on <02-07-11/1955:33>
Quote
With in the game setting, both are right (and conversely neither is wrong as both are able to produce results based on their intent).
It's not necessarily like that. Of course shamans and other traditionalist and intuitive traditions can create magic. But that in itself doesn't mean their world view is correct. They can create magic, because their adherents have the Talent, and the traditions build up mental discipline and ritual channels through which to work it. I mean, I know it has been a long-standing tradition that SR source material is agnostic, so to say, about which side has it right, but heh, you beautifully summarised it in your first paragraph:

Quote
well, we hermetic mages have and do study magic scientifically. We have made hypothesis, tested them, had other hermetics evaluate and retest our results. There has been so much scientific research in magic that MIT added another T and at every major university one can find programs in Thaumaturgical Theory for both the mundane and awakened to study and apply in their lives. The Anthropological Thaumaturgist is able to point out the similarities and divergences between hermeticism and other traditions, with cognitive MRI mapping of casters' bodies indicating where stress, neurological activity, and so forth was taking place during casting or summoning. And thaumaturgical science has even entered the applied fields by engineering materials that impede and conduct magical energies.

In its most basic outlines, the scientifical approach to magic (of which hermeticism is the main school, though of course not the only one) even understands just why shamans etc. can work magic despite a world view that might even be contrary to what's observable on the totally mundane level, and the scientific approach also begins to understand just why there are traditions at all and what they are needed for.

I know I'm, being very onesided here, but IMO, it makes sense: As science marches on, and more and more is researched and studied, the scientific approach to magic should increasingly be able to understand matters better than the traditionalist approach.
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: zhivik on <02-08-11/1047:51>
I suppose it comes down to how you perceive magic - as a science or an art.

Obviously, if you consider magic a science, as it seems to have some very strict rules in the Sixth World (like the correlation between spell power and drain), then the scientific approach obviously has the upper hand. Basically, it is the difference between a talented car mechanic and an automobile engineer. Even though the mechanic can probably do a good job on a car, he cannot measure with the engineer, who really understands how a car works, and what he can squeeze out of it. In this case, hermetics gain the upper hand, as their better understanding would give them an advantage in the end.

On the other hand, if you consider magic as art, then the shamans are right, as in this case creativity, intuition and improvisation have much higher weight than the scientific approach. It's like with musicians - you can have some very good instrumentalists, but as long as they don't have that passion, they don't sound as good, even if they have a much better technique.

But in the end, this is the good thing about magic, that it can be considered both a science and an art, which gives a lot of room for interpretation, and of course, mystery (never a bad thing, if you ask me). It is quite similar with the Matrix and the difference between hackers and technomancers. The former approach the Matrix in a more scientific manner, while the latter do it as artists, and they never seem to be in such big conflict.

And to mention a few words on the original topic, as we diverged quite a lot in the last few posts, one explanation for the mana fluctuation could be that it is simply a natural order of things. I know this not quite an explanation, but the universe itself seems to contain quite a lot of different cycles, even if not regular ones. In fact, this gives another line of thought - what if the length of the cycle (in other words the Worlds) is not the same? Of course, Ehran claims this is so, but what if he doesn't really have a clue? This could well mean that the Horrors could much sooner (or later). I guess some of the Great Dragons might have an idea, but since none of them is talking about it, a simple explanation could be that they are as clueless about it as everyone else, but would never admit it.
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <02-08-11/1141:13>
There's a reason magic is often called "the craft."  Crafts are forms of artwork that use specific tools with repeatable results.  "Repeatable results" means that if you know how to, you can carve a design into a chair using learned techniques.  Anyone can do this.  The artwork part of it comes from the creative force within the person making the design.  This same principle applies to magic in the 6th world.
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: Frostriese on <02-08-11/1500:20>
Quote
I suppose it comes down to how you perceive magic - as a science or an art.
Does it come down to it? After all, for all that painting and music and so on are arts, they are still scientifically understandable. It's as I've said: Just because the shaman can work magic doesn't mean his world view is correct. Especially if it's a really traditional shaman in some god forsaken part of the world where his people might still believe things directly contrary even to mundanely observable things. And yet his magic works. But that doesn't mean anything. Likewise, as far as correctness of worldview goes, it doesn't matter whether magic is used as an art or not.

Quote
And to mention a few words on the original topic, as we diverged quite a lot in the last few posts, one explanation for the mana fluctuation could be that it is simply a natural order of things. I know this not quite an explanation, but the universe itself seems to contain quite a lot of different cycles, even if not regular one
That is really not an explanation in itself. You're right, much in the universe is cyclical, but usually science then tries to understand why the cycle is there and how it works. Of course, I think in SR they are not yet as far as to be able to explain how and why the mana cycle works. But that should at least definitely be an aim for traumathurgical science.
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: Fizzygoo on <02-09-11/2225:01>
But in the end, this is the good thing about magic, that it can be considered both a science and an art,

Two of the greatest things about humanity...their science and their art...and how wonderful it is when they merge the two successfully :)

Does it come down to it?

Crap! Like the saying, "It's art because I say it is," now that you've asked if it comes down to art verse science perception in can't and must go beyond that, either as a merging of the two or as divergent paths (or some combination there of).

Just because the shaman can work magic doesn't mean his world view is correct. Especially if it's a really traditional shaman in some god forsaken part of the world where his people might still believe things directly contrary even to mundanely observable things.

I'll disagree with you here, Frostriese (though politely and with a friendly smile :) ). For this discussion, I have not been considering "world views" of magical practitioners...only their understand of how magic works...their magical view. Leaving out said shaman's (and university trained geologist/astronomer/etc) understanding of the mundane physical world. What the shaman's people believe about mundanely observable things is not relevant to the shaman's understanding of magic-use, astral planes, etc.

That is really not an explanation in itself. You're right, much in the universe is cyclical, but usually science then tries to understand why the cycle is there and how it works. Of course, I think in SR they are not yet as far as to be able to explain how and why the mana cycle works. But that should at least definitely be an aim for traumathurgical science.

Now to come back in to agreement with you :) I totally agree. Saying that "what goes up must come down" because it is the natural order of things does not explain it. But saying F = G*m1*m2 / r^2 begins to explain it (at least of most cases), and documenting a gravity-particle would really explain it. :)
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: zhivik on <02-14-11/0620:43>
Sure, you are certainly right (both of you) that it wasn't really an explanation - it's just I hadn't crystallized my thoughts on this when I was writing that post. Anyways, here are a couple of possible explanations:

- This comes from the idea of a living universe. Thus, mana levels can be considered as universe's "breath" or "heartbeat". If we associate mana with life, then you might say that this is a sign that the world around us is a living environment, only with a much larger scope, so a single heartbeat or breath could take an age from a human perspective;

- Another possible explanation would require me to digress a little. This is related to parallel universes; more precisely to the idea that while magic might be considered something out of the ordinary in one universe, it could be something logical in another, like the laws of physics, for example. Then, imagine that parallel universes could influence each other, and in some way travel (as galaxies do), though probably in a dimension other than the three we can sense. Thus, when the Shadowrun universes gets close to the one where magic is the natural order, it starts picking up the other universe's natural laws, and mana levels rise. Then, the two universes split again, and mana falls.

A dark twist of this would be if the magical universe is actually that of the Horrors, suggesting that magic is ultimately their nature. This would imply that magic corrupts everyone, even if slowly. It does go in line with the cannon, suggesting that Horrors can cross to the Shadowrun universe only if mana levels are high enough. Of course, this is just one take of this, another (and I guess a more popular one) is that the Horrors rather can only survive at high mana levels, which explains why they cross only then.

In the end, I would like to note that these are speculations only, and they are quite possibly wrong, so don't think I am trying to impose a new cannon here :)
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: Rockopolis on <02-14-11/1609:15>
Is it significant that homo sapiens sapiens seems to be the default form for cycles of low magic?
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: Charybdis on <02-14-11/2048:34>
Is it significant that homo sapiens sapiens seems to be the default form for cycles of low magic?
I don't really think it's significant..... I just think of it as the default for that particular (non-Awakened) strain of DNA.

I can't see it as being any more important than Bear being the mundane Piasma, or Housecat being the default form of a Blackberry Cat.
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: Fizzygoo on <02-14-11/2210:12>
@zhivik - I think either of your options could be possible...or both at once, that the parallel universe is a living horror who's black beating heart beats a five thousand year pulse where magic is just the plasma run-off oozing from parallel dark energy wounds. But yeah, all just speculation at this point. What we need, to push the envelope here, is some canon that links mana, mana levels/cycles, to sub-atomic particles, including but not limited to, string theory, m-theory, etc. At this point canon evidence is pretty solid on the cycle, that there can be spikes and dips, and that there are meta-planes beyond the Astral. But after that...well, levitate spell would be the best place to start, I guess (at least for me with physics background, ignite may be a better starting point of the chemists, and so on). What's the force (old school F = ma) of a levitate spell cast at X force (Shadowrun force)? Max force, min force, etc. I don't have books but would be interesting to see what it translates into and then explore from there.

@Rockopolis - I think Charybdis is right. The other way to answer your question is; Yes, it is significant. How so? Well, homo sapiens sapiens are the default form for homo sapiens during low magic cycles. The question answers itself. Now asking "why" are homo sapiens sapiens the default form at least lets one make hypothesis about it, and then test those hypothesis...which in SR canon they did...and like Charybdis pointed out they discovered it's dependent on DNA. Then comes the questions; which genes or segments of the DNA are responsive to magic levels, how are they passed on during low mana cycles, etc.
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <02-15-11/1114:31>
Re: DNA and mana levels.  I would theorize that it's the shape of the molecule as well as the combination of ACGT structures that "funnel" the mana into specific forms.

M-Theory and membranes actually coincide nicely with established ideas of the metaplanes getting "closer" to the physical world.  I believe that the proximity allows for energy to be transfered from one plane to another and for fields and particles to cross and interact between branes.
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: Fortinbras on <02-15-11/1153:48>
Is it significant that homo sapiens sapiens seems to be the default form for cycles of low magic?
I don't really think it's significant..... I just think of it as the default for that particular (non-Awakened) strain of DNA.

I can't see it as being any more important than Bear being the mundane Piasma, or Housecat being the default form of a Blackberry Cat.
Does this mean that elves/dwarves/trolls/orks are inherently magical and that humans are inherently non-magical?
What does that mean to non-magical metahumans and magical humans? Can an elf mage make an argument for superiority over a human mage based solely upon their DNA? Is that the Eugenics of the Sixth World?

And what does it mean that human is the default setting? In Earthdawn, dwarves were the most numerous of the Namegivers, so what changed? Did it have something to do with the Therans?

All interesting, yet ultimately rhetorical, questions. Neat game ideas,too.
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: Fizzygoo on <02-15-11/1734:57>
Does this mean that elves/dwarves/trolls/orks are inherently magical
Yes.

and that humans are inherently non-magical?
No...reason being: humans are the carrier's of the other sub-species genetic markers. If an individual human could be identified as not carrying any genes for UGE expression or Awakened talent (either recessive or dominant) then one could argue that that individual is inherently non-magical. But the issue would still be that, since all are Homo sapiens, that means, evolutionarily speaking, they (we) all share the same common ancestor group. Merging evolutionary theory with canon means that all of metahumanity has common roots in Homo erectus, hablis, australopithecus, etc. Because of the nearly universal 10% UGE expression (+/- x% for various locations), that would indicate (but still carry some amount of doubt) that the "magic" genes were existent pre-Homo sapien emergence. Of course magic can throw all this out with "dragons creating elves from humans only x-many years ago," etc, and I'm not well versed on my Earthdawn info but even then, if it fits one's game one can just say, "well, the elven historians got it wrong...or the dragons are lying/got it wrong...etc."

What does that mean to non-magical metahumans and magical humans? Can an elf mage make an argument for superiority over a human mage based solely upon their DNA? Is that the Eugenics of the Sixth World?

Well, give that Eugenics is a faulty science in that it allows for (attempts to fit the data into) superiority claims based on culture rather than actual biology, yes. So, an elf mage can make the argument "I'm more superior than you, human, because my magic is expressed as talent as well as sub-species" but the human mage can say, "but I'm more adapted to any level of mana, so I'm more superior than you."

And what does it mean that human is the default setting? In Earthdawn, dwarves were the most numerous of the Namegivers, so what changed? Did it have something to do with the Therans?
I'd love for more info/an answer to this question, though I'm not sure what you mean by "default setting"? I think you mean that humans are the default sub-species of Shadowrun because they were the only sub-species to exist pre-Awakening (disregarding the few statistically insignificant number of spike babies...which we could just move the date of the Awakening to the first birth of the first spike baby). But correct me if I'm misinterpreting. With dwarves being the most numerous of the Namegivers...it could just mean they were the best to survive the horrors. The horrors being a harsh form of (super)natural selection that culled the herds of metahumanity with the dwarves being the least hit. Or it could just mean they were good a breeding through the last magic cycle. But I'm "really" guessing here instead of "mostly" guessing in my comments above :)

All interesting, yet ultimately rhetorical, questions. Neat game ideas,too.

Yup, and definitely fun to think about :)
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: Charybdis on <02-15-11/1738:52>
I don't really think it's significant..... I just think of it as the default for that particular (non-Awakened) strain of DNA.

I can't see it as being any more important than Bear being the mundane Piasma, or Housecat being the default form of a Blackberry Cat.
Does this mean that elves/dwarves/trolls/orks are inherently magical and that humans are inherently non-magical?
No, it just means that humans are the default physiological state (ie Dynamite), but an awakened world provides a catalyst to the DNA creating other variants (ie Spark plus dynamite).

What does that mean to non-magical metahumans and magical humans? Can an elf mage make an argument for superiority over a human mage based solely upon their DNA? Is that the Eugenics of the Sixth World?
Depends on how you treat awakened DNA.

In my campaign, an Elf requires an awakened world to manifest, but this has zero bearing on their magical ability.

Of course, if you ask any elves in the Tir, they could tell you at length how superior their magical abilities are ;) Most however, would argue that this is not because of any inherent increased ability, but rather a few thousand years more practice  :o

And what does it mean that human is the default setting? In Earthdawn, dwarves were the most numerous of the Namegivers, so what changed? Did it have something to do with the Therans?
I thought dwarves were only the most common in that main area of ED campaigns, as they had that big merchant Kaer that opened up at the right time?

*shrugs* Perhaps dwarves were the most common awakened race, but once the magic levels dropped, more humans were born instead.

It's a simple enough explanation.
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <02-15-11/1911:23>
Dwarfs were more common in Barsaive because they had organized the largest kaer in the area prior to the Scourge.  This, combined with their talent for organizing just about anything involving a stable civilization, meant that they were the most populous race in the century following the opening of the kaers.

Humans used to have a human based kingdom, called Landis, but conflict with the ork nation of Cara Fahd ensured that both nations fell during the Scourge (both squandered resources that should have gone to kaer production, but it looks like this was the work of a few Horrors showing up in the wrong places).
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: Rockopolis on <02-15-11/1920:26>
Well...I think what I'm wondering is, what is in the sections of baseline human DNA that is mana-sensitive in other metaraces?  Padding?  Those socks we keep losing?  Some kind of hidden message?
EDGE!  Edge is stored in junk DNA!  Humans have lucky DNA!

Also...branched off at Homo Erectus or earlier...hmm...I wonder what this says about Homo Neanderthalensis?
Or...what about the possibility of...Manstart?  Set in the...First World?, you play as early man, carving out the very foundations of Humanity!  Trade in your Predator for an atlatl, your cyberware for this marvelous new 'clothes' stuff, and your magic for this awesome new 'communication'!
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: Charybdis on <02-15-11/1928:28>
Well...I think what I'm wondering is, what is in the sections of baseline human DNA that is mana-sensitive in other metaraces?  Padding?  Those socks we keep losing?  Some kind of hidden message?
EDGE!  Edge is stored in junk DNA!  Humans have lucky DNA!

Also...branched off at Homo Erectus or earlier...hmm...I wonder what this says about Homo Neanderthalensis?
Or...what about the possibility of...Manstart?  Set in the...First World?, you play as early man, carving out the very foundations of Humanity!  Trade in your Predator for an atlatl, your cyberware for this marvelous new 'clothes' stuff, and your magic for this awesome new 'communication'!
Fire, mon ami, don't forget Fire...there's your mage archtype right there :)
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: Rockopolis on <02-15-11/2017:13>
Right!

Wonder if there's more to "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds"?

Need a better name, but the tagline is probably "Man, Fire, Tool", then.
Huntgather?  Manstand?  Stonefire?  Seedcivilization?  Fireseed (oops, I think H Beam Piper used that already.  Be a better title, though)?  How did they come up with 'Shadowrun' or 'Earthdawn' as a name, anyway?

So...huntergathering shadowruners?
Field Warriors are skilled with flint and stick, and enhance themselves with powerful "clothes", at a price; mysterious Fire Makers master the secrets of fire and crafting; their Flame Dancer brethren carry the fire with them to use as a weapon; Riders train and use powerful but termpermental animals to accomplish impossible feats; and the charismatic Talkers are silver tongued masters of communication, experts at organizing and convincing others.
Together, you are Huntergatherers, travelling through the wilds to find resources for powerful tribes.  Your obstacles are many; rival tribes, weather and beasts of the wild, anachronistic sabertooth tigers and dinosaurs...your goal?  Live another day, and maybe one day, found a village.

Hmm...if I wanted to continue, or at least brag about record my absurdities, what board should it go on?  Hah, wonder if I can use the Shadowrun rules for this kind of campaign?
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: Charybdis on <02-15-11/2152:36>
Hah, wonder if I can use the Shadowrun rules for this kind of campaign?
Easily. Although most of the rules simply wouldn't apply (Cyber/Bio/Vehicles/Communication/etc)

You'd have to be careful though, because if you allowed magic without allowing some tech, the mages would very quickly become superpowerful in such an environment.
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: Rockopolis on <02-15-11/2218:01>
True, fire is unbalancing.  Although actual magic?  Spellslinging cavedwellers?  I suppose all the PCs would be mages or adepts...sounds like primitive Earthdawn, which I've never played.  Can't really think of a way to balance it...should check the costs of skills or tools compared to powers and spells.  Unless we make tool use a separate category, possibly taking up primitive brain Essence to comprhend their use.  Hmm...smoke signal deckers?  Smokers?
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: Charybdis on <02-15-11/2219:46>
True, fire is unbalancing.  Although actual magic?  Spellslinging cavedwellers?  I suppose all the PCs would be mages or adepts...sounds like primitive Earthdawn, which I've never played.  Can't really think of a way to balance it...should check the costs of skills or tools compared to powers and spells.  Unless we make tool use a separate category, possibly taking up primitive brain Essence to comprhend their use.  Hmm...smoke signal deckers?  Smokers?
Actually, it sounds much more like Earthdawn mechanics would be best, rather than Shadowrun.

At least that way everyone's on a level-playing field from woe to go.

Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <02-16-11/1035:15>
In Earthdawn, everyone can use magic.  The spellcasters are just the ones that cast spells.  They all are called "adepts" and follow different Disciplines (think character classes that actually make sense in the game world).  At high Circles (what ED calls levels) everyone has some rather insane amount of power; like being able to summon a typhoon, animate and command every corpse within five miles, put an entire city into a small bottle, or to (theoretically) make up to 42 physical attacks in a combat round (or 21 in SR rounds).
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: Rockopolis on <02-16-11/1108:04>
Does Earthdawn have anything similar to Essence, and cyberware?  Also...Fred Flintstone, Caverunner?  "Yabba dabba doo, omae."
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: Charybdis on <02-16-11/1747:58>
Does Earthdawn have anything similar to Essence, and cyberware?  Also...Fred Flintstone, Caverunner?  "Yabba dabba doo, omae."
Kinda'. They have blood magic items, where you can install armour and tricky little devices (Ahh, death charms, how I love thee!)

These items directly subtract from your health (ED uses a hit Point total), and you can start suffering other penalties from having too many (Wound threshold I think is the tipping point here? Has been a while...)
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <02-16-11/1818:24>
It's Willpower, Char.  And you can have a bunch of them, but once you start failing the Depatterning test, the rating climbs up until it exceeds your Willpower.  When it does that, the next time you fail the test, something unpleasant happens.  Of the suggested things that happen to you, the nicest thing that happens is you have an instantly fatal heart attack.
Title: Re: Rise and fall of magic
Post by: Charybdis on <02-16-11/2045:06>
It's Willpower, Char.  And you can have a bunch of them, but once you start failing the Depatterning test, the rating climbs up until it exceeds your Willpower.  When it does that, the next time you fail the test, something unpleasant happens.  Of the suggested things that happen to you, the nicest thing that happens is you have an instantly fatal heart attack.
Ahh yes. The standard Theran Cosmetic Surgery failure...I remember now. Well, when you replace your hair with living crystal, you're starting a very dangerous slide ;)